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GraveTrain
09-25-2009, 9:25 AM
Hey guys... I'm looking for a some direction on where to go regarding my next gun. I've been doing a lot of research on CalGuns, AR15 and AK forums... it's a bit overwhelming. So, I thought I'd put this out there to CalGuns AK and AR owners alike and try to find some suggestions that are specific to my needs (and hopefully) any other member who may be looking for the same.

I'm looking for the final piece of my three point HD/WORL and "just going to the range and shooting on the weekends" strategy. I have a Mossberg 590A1, a Springfield XD .45 Tactical and am now searching for a midrange stand-off solution.

What I'm looking for:

1. Low entry fee (Sub $1,000)
2. Accurate (not necessarily SNIPER accurate to 1,000 yds)
3. Chambered in .223/5.56
4. Minimum Kalifornia legal overall length
5. Kalifornia Kompliant
6. If an AK, a 74 NOT a 47.
7. If an AR, PRE-BUILT (but modifiable down the road)
8. Desire functionality/reliability/accuracy over tacticool.
9. NOT a bolt action.

I don't mind rolling up my sleeves and doing a little grunt bench-work (with guidance). Kalifornia conversions or upgrade mods spread out over time is ok to a point. I know myself pretty well and I can tell you if I have to start looking for uppers/lowers, trigger springs, custom firing pins, etc out on the net, I'm going to be dragged into to this hobby and immerse myself to the point where I'll mortgage my house and my daughter's academic future. Plus I can't imagine what the divorce attorney is going to cost.

Hope that's not too much to digest. I appreciate any suggestions you have.

TIA,

Stan

Sicarius
09-25-2009, 10:33 AM
Hrm... If you are considering the ak platform, though not the most accurate when compared to an ar, have you considered the saiga? Other than that I think for 800 dollars, you may be able to find a deal on an already buit AR but that is cutting it close. Su16 is also in the price range but I wouldn't consider them rugged when compared to a mini 14 or saiga.
Kevin

Noobert
09-25-2009, 10:36 AM
Mini-14

Sicarius
09-25-2009, 10:40 AM
How accurate is accurate... say at 100 yards... how big of a grouping are you looking for?
Mini 14 is also a choice in your range but I didn't suggest it because reliable hi cap mags use to be difficult and very expensive to obtain and the accuracy was lacking imo. They may have changed but this was 10 or so years ago.
Kevin

Trapper
09-25-2009, 10:43 AM
NEF Handi Rifle
$250
37" overall length
Accurate
Not a bolt action

Variable2147
09-25-2009, 10:45 AM
I'd go Mini-14, then saiga...they are both featureless and assembled....if you are determined to go AR/AK, you could get a complete lower and maglock for under $300 and order a kiss upper from delton or model1sales for about $500

GraveTrain
09-25-2009, 10:46 AM
Okay... I bumped up my price requirement for a rifle to $1,000 because I didn't want to AUTOMATICALLY discount an AR and force the discussion to just an AK. I would want to buy the best piece equipment right up to the $1,000 mark.

It is reasonable to think that putting together an AR with complete uppers and lowers would be more affordable than a pre-built?

Sumo99
09-25-2009, 10:49 AM
Just throwing this out there, but how about something like a Remington 7615? It meets all of your requirements. I'm not sure how accurate it is, but it can't be any worse than a mini 14 or Saiga and I'm sure it's more durable than a SU16. It's not a semi, but you only said you didn't want a bolt action. And it takes AR mags.

Bowser
09-25-2009, 10:55 AM
Saiga .223

Sicarius
09-25-2009, 10:59 AM
For an ar, you can pick up an DSA upper for 275 minus the bolt and carrier.
Bolt and carrier will set you back 150ish... for a complete upper you are looking at just over 450...
Lower is say 200ish. LPK is 60 or so a stock will set you back another 60ish. I think you can get out the door for under 1k.
Kevin

gunn
09-25-2009, 11:02 AM
I'd second the vote for a Saiga 223. They are pretty darn cheap ($300-400 easily) for what you get and in hindsight, I would have picked it over my Keltec even though the keltec is lighter and folds in half.

They also make it in 5.45x39 so you can shoot for 15c/rd (while the ammo remains available since there are no domestic mfgs AFAIK).
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=216924

I have a bullet button AK and I'm not such a fan of trying to actuate a lever covered by a shroud on the AK vs using a tool to push the mag release button on an AR15. Unless you are buying a Saiga 12 (and you have no choice in the matter as detachable magazine shotguns are a no-no in CA), I'd stick with the stock Saiga setup vs. converting it and then needing some form of maglock.
-g

SJgunguy24
09-25-2009, 12:01 PM
AK FTW
One of my Saiga conversions.


http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll66/SJgunguy24/001-14.jpg

SanSacto
09-25-2009, 12:07 PM
You can put together a KISS AR build for a grand.

If not, get a Saiga .223 for cheap and put about $400 into converting it and upgrading it how you like.

SCMA-1
09-25-2009, 12:14 PM
My picks would be Saiga 223 or a newer generation Mini-14 (580 and up series). The newer Mini-14's have improved accuracy due to the revised barrel profile. Saiga's are repackaged Kalashnikovs; real hard to go wrong there. It will really come down to personal preference between the two, although Mini-14's are currently a bit more expensive than the Saigas.

ripcurlksm
09-25-2009, 12:49 PM
SJgunguy... FTW indeed, that is a nice one you have there

Variable2147
09-25-2009, 12:54 PM
Okay... I bumped up my price requirement for a rifle to $1,000 because I didn't want to AUTOMATICALLY discount an AR and force the discussion to just an AK. I would want to buy the best piece equipment right up to the $1,000 mark.

It is reasonable to think that putting together an AR with complete uppers and lowers would be more affordable than a pre-built?

For $1000 budget I'd go with an AR type. If you don't want to build, just bite the bullet on a complete lower, and a complete upper. Get the simple stuff so you can upgrade later like you said...and the more patient you are, the better deals you'll find. I'm about $800 into mine with a CTR stock, free float rail, detachable carry handle, ergo grip. Its just about patience to find deals. Complete rifles wouldn't be abad idea, but you said you want to upgrade later, and complete rifles tend to have some upgrades already and you pay for it.

GraveTrain
09-25-2009, 2:30 PM
I was thinking about a Saiga conversion setup. After seeing some of SJGunGuy's conversions, the AK is certainly a way to go.

Someone asked me how "accurate" this needs to be and my only hesitation about an AK is just that. Accuracy. I'm looking to keep "adversaries" about about 100 yards away. I'm not looking to set my defensive perimeter out to like a 1,000 yards or anything. (or should I?)

My local gun dealer showed me a Del-Ton for $899. Any thoughts?

Sicarius
09-25-2009, 2:36 PM
The ak is realistically good for 150-200yards. Granted there are some exceptional ones out there but with the short sight radius... it only has so much potential. If keeping things 100 yards at bay, an ak will do the job.
Kevin

Bug Splat
09-25-2009, 2:47 PM
Did I just walk into the crack head thread? Mini-14, saiga, accurate? Are you kidding me? those are some of the least accurate rifles around. Even the SU-16 can scratch up tighter groups.

If you want 223/5.56 accuracy your only affordable option is an AR. The Sweet 16 can get you 1/4 MOA groups with the right load and practice. 1/2 inch groups are not a problem with good reloads. 1.5 MOA groups with surplus ammo. The only other "accurate" options are out of your price range. Maybe I'm just picky but anything over 1 MOA is NOT an accurate rifle.

http://www.impactguns.com/store/DPMS-RFA2-B16-FL-SPR.html
http://www.impactguns.com/store/media/dpms_rfa2-b16.jpg

Arteel
09-25-2009, 2:51 PM
A bit over you budget, but you'll get $250 worth of credit to purchase any accessory from DD.

http://riflegear.com/p-585-daniel-defense-xv.aspx

Richie Caketown
09-25-2009, 2:51 PM
Kel Tec!!!


:hide:

wash
09-25-2009, 3:25 PM
FN makes a bullpup in 5.56, that's the only way you'll get close to that CA minimum and still have a good shot at accuracy.

The KelTec folds to get short but if you want to shoot it, it's longer and they aren't known for accuracy.

GraveTrain
09-25-2009, 7:24 PM
FN makes a bullpup in 5.56, that's the only way you'll get close to that CA minimum and still have a good shot at accuracy.

The KelTec folds to get short but if you want to shoot it, it's longer and they aren't known for accuracy.


Can't shoot bullpup. I'm a left hander. About the KelTec... held one at the Cow Palace Crossroads last week.... eh.....

No comments about the full Del-Tec platforms? Anyone?

missiontrails
09-25-2009, 8:34 PM
Mark's Armory, CMMG M4 w/carry handle. $925. Bought one, like it.

Josh3239
09-25-2009, 8:37 PM
ARs and '74s can be found for less than $1,000 easily.

SJgunguy24
09-25-2009, 9:21 PM
The ak is realistically good for 150-200yards. Granted there are some exceptional ones out there but with the short sight radius... it only has so much potential. If keeping things 100 yards at bay, an ak will do the job.
Kevin

Thats why I put G3 sights on the dust cover, add a bit of metal to make the cover tight. An extra 10" of sight radius.
Even with stock irons I can hit a man sized target at 400 yards.

An AK isn't going group as well as the AR. Thats the design of the AR though. I'll tell you what though, just about everytime i've gone out to Panoche someone AR has gone down. I bring tools just for people who have AR's. Add the springs, dedents, and sensitivity to ammo and dust. I wouldn't recommend the AR for anybody's first rifle.

StevieC
09-25-2009, 9:36 PM
the thing I don't like about AK's is there isn't a rail on top of the receiver for optics

a flat top AR or even a handle mounted rail is so much more convenient

Vinz
09-25-2009, 9:36 PM
Hey guys... I'm looking for a some direction on where to go regarding my next gun. I've been doing a lot of research on CalGuns, AR15 and AK forums... it's a bit overwhelming. So, I thought I'd put this out there to CalGuns AK and AR owners alike and try to find some suggestions that are specific to my needs (and hopefully) any other member who may be looking for the same.

I'm looking for the final piece of my three point HD/WORL and "just going to the range and shooting on the weekends" strategy. I have a Mossberg 590A1, a Springfield XD .45 Tactical and am now searching for a midrange stand-off solution.

What I'm looking for:

1. Low entry fee (Sub $1,000)
2. Accurate (not necessarily SNIPER accurate to 1,000 yds)
3. Chambered in .223/5.56
4. Minimum Kalifornia legal overall length
5. Kalifornia Kompliant
6. If an AK, a 74 NOT a 47.
7. If an AR, PRE-BUILT (but modifiable down the road)
8. Desire functionality/reliability/accuracy over tacticool.
9. NOT a bolt action.

I don't mind rolling up my sleeves and doing a little grunt bench-work (with guidance). Kalifornia conversions or upgrade mods spread out over time is ok to a point. I know myself pretty well and I can tell you if I have to start looking for uppers/lowers, trigger springs, custom firing pins, etc out on the net, I'm going to be dragged into to this hobby and immerse myself to the point where I'll mortgage my house and my daughter's academic future. Plus I can't imagine what the divorce attorney is going to cost.

Hope that's not too much to digest. I appreciate any suggestions you have.

TIA,

Stan

heres a good start.
http://usautoweapons.com/pgs/AdditionalCatalogShowItem.php?ID=17562&PG=cat&q=

put the rest of money into your upper and optics.

vinz

missiontrails
09-25-2009, 9:54 PM
heres a good start.
http://usautoweapons.com/pgs/AdditionalCatalogShowItem.php?ID=17562&PG=cat&q=

put the rest of money into your upper and optics.

vinz

Talk to John there, he is from SD.

rct442
09-25-2009, 10:18 PM
Have you tried the Private Firearms Sales forum?

The market on EBRs has fallen greatly since last November, and high-quality ARs are not selling.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/forumdisplay.php?f=92

You got a good pick of assembled rifles, I have seen a few LMTs, a LWRC, and a few Colts pop-up in the last few days with no buyers. Not to mention Mini-14s, Kel-tecs, and AKs. It's a buyers market now, not a sellers market like it has been for the last 6 months or so.

CHS
09-25-2009, 11:19 PM
A bit over you budget, but you'll get $250 worth of credit to purchase any accessory from DD.

http://riflegear.com/p-585-daniel-defense-xv.aspx

Seconded. This is flat-out one of the best deals in an AR15 on the market today. Excellent cold hammer-forged barrel, everything milspec, solid, reliable, ready to go out of the box. Even comes with a rear sight.

Light. Short. KISS.

You really should consider upping your budget just a little to this rifle.

GraveTrain
09-26-2009, 10:14 AM
The Daniel Defense is one of those "someday" guns for me. Even at that price, tax, +DROS and other fees I'm looking at around $1,500. A little too rich for me right now. I'm looking for a $1,000 out the door solution. KISS is definitely the way I would go with a AR.

I'm following up on all of your suggestions, keep them coming. Geeze, with the lack of comments regarding a fully built Del Ton, I'm thinking its a platform I should avoid.

CHS
09-26-2009, 10:37 AM
The Daniel Defense is one of those "someday" guns for me. Even at that price, tax, +DROS and other fees I'm looking at around $1,500. A little too rich for me right now. I'm looking for a $1,000 out the door solution. KISS is definitely the way I would go with a AR.


You need to go back to math class :)

It would be about 1275 depending on which part of CA you're in. Dunno what other fees you're talking about but there's only tax + DROS and DROS is only $25. Tax is about $100.

I know you're stuck on the $1000 mark, which will get you an "ok" rifle but For a pretty small amount more, you can get a whole lot more than "ok".

rct442
09-26-2009, 10:43 AM
You need to go back to math class :)

It would be about 1275 depending on which part of CA you're in. Dunno what other fees you're talking about but there's only tax + DROS and DROS is only $25. Tax is about $100.

I know you're stuck on the $1000 mark, which will get you an "ok" rifle but For a pretty small amount more, you can get a whole lot more than "ok".

:clap: I agree.

You shouldn't be forced into anything you don't want, but I also don't regret for one minute spending a little more then I was comfortable with.

Building a AR over many months to spread out the costs doesn't always save you money. That DD is a good deal, and if I wasn't a LMT/Colt fanboy, I would be all over it. :D

GraveTrain
09-26-2009, 11:06 AM
arteeel, bdsmchs, rct442 -

You guys suck. :p.

AIM has it for $1,139 plus $.01 shipping. Funny how the $250 gift card was just enough to cover the cost of an Omega 7 Free Floating Rail. Definitely one of the top two choices (Saiga .223 conversion).

IF this is the route I take, you guys better make room in your living room and make up the sofa when the wife kicks me out of the house. I don't like to be woken up until 9:00A and I like egg white omelets for breakfast. Coffee black.
:rolleyes: :rofl:

SJgunguy24
09-26-2009, 11:12 AM
the thing I don't like about AK's is there isn't a rail on top of the receiver for optics

a flat top AR or even a handle mounted rail is so much more convenient

Ahhh yes, but you pick up one of these rails and your problem is solved. www.texasweaponsystems.com/id1.html

Solartactical sell them for 165$ with the peep sight. Add that to the Saiga and conversion parts
your still under 750$ complete.

There's no way you can beat a Saiga NIB for the money. Add AK reliablity and no dedents or small springs to launch into low earth orbit, IMO you can't go wrong.

missiontrails
09-26-2009, 11:19 AM
The Daniel Defense is one of those "someday" guns for me. Even at that price, tax, +DROS and other fees I'm looking at around $1,500. A little too rich for me right now. I'm looking for a $1,000 out the door solution. KISS is definitely the way I would go with a AR.

I'm following up on all of your suggestions, keep them coming. Geeze, with the lack of comments regarding a fully built Del Ton, I'm thinking its a platform I should avoid.

My CMMG M4 from Mark's Armory came to $1005 out the door:
Rifle- $925 (NOT THE NON-MILSPEC WASP VERSION)
Shipping- $20
FFL to FFL (Gusslers in SD) $60
No hassle from my FFL - $0

But:
Bullet Button- $20
10 round mags- $20 each

rct442
09-26-2009, 11:19 AM
AIM has it for $1,139 plus $.01 shipping. Funny how the $250 gift card was just enough to cover the cost of an Omega 7 Free Floating Rail.

That's a no-go. AIM is notorious for not shipping OLLs to CA. You need to send it to a middleman first who will add a mag-lock like a BB, for an extra $50-75.

That is a sweet looking rifle though, even better with the Omega rail.:D

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/ddxv.jpg
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/ddxvo.jpg

missiontrails
09-26-2009, 6:44 PM
Behold: http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=81462

odysseus
09-26-2009, 6:57 PM
Look around for people selling uppers and lowers and part kits for an AR. I would advise making an effort for an AR, even if it puts you a little over your budget in the final analysis. This is an easy weapon to maintain and find cheap parts for. Do it!!!!

GraveTrain
09-26-2009, 7:25 PM
Behold: http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=81462

Thanks!!! Bookmarked.