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View Full Version : 12 year old attempted armed robber shot 4 times.


imported_EvolutionGSR
09-27-2005, 10:39 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9507695/

Here's the article. I saw this on the news today and looked it up when I came home. Thought it might bring up some interesting discussions and opinions.

What isn't in this article that I saw on the news was the suspect's brother saying that since his brother was shot 4 times, it was not justified, and that it is attempted murder. The news cast also stated that the boy was shot once in each leg, once in the torso area, and once in part of the head. What was in the article that wasn't on the news was that the gun used by the boy was a toy. Lets hear what everyone has to say. Justified shooting or not?

saki302
09-28-2005, 3:26 AM
If he had already robbed the place, that means his 'toy' gun looked real.

If the employees or owner felt threatened, they were 100% justified in the shoot.
If someone pulled what you thought to be a real gun on YOU in your home, would you not open fire?

It also seems the owner wasn't a great shot (two in the legs?)

-Dave

colossians323
09-28-2005, 4:34 AM
<span class="ev_code_RED">JUSTIFIED</span>
No one wants to shoot in self defense, but if you have to,

Its to bad that this punk did not get the instant justice he deserved.
He is in a group home for a reason, and he hasn't learned yet, which means he probably will never learn.
I have a son who just turned 11, and I could not imagine hem pulling a stunt like this.
This twelve year old already robbed the store previously, and came back for more.
Evil exists, and he is the epitome of it all.

joel1316
09-28-2005, 6:06 AM
Justified...

But why so many shots? I don't know, maybe I'd go crazy on the trigger too if someone had a gun pointed at me too?

Bongos
09-28-2005, 6:22 AM
i don't think the boy was standing still to be shot at, that's probably why he was shot in different places. the news/article made it sound like a torture shooting... either way.. very sad.

rkt88edmo
09-28-2005, 6:32 AM
Originally posted by Dave A.:
It also seems the owner wasn't a great shot (two in the legs?)


Many (most?) firearms owners aren't. And in a high stress situation? Even worse.

And for Joel1316, regarding the multiple shots:
"I don't get that," said Chris Matthews, the boy's brother.
I am sure there is a lot that Chris doesn't get, but the shoot definitely sounds justified from the portrayal of the article. How many rounds would you fire at someone threatening your life with a gun before you stopped to check and see if you had stopped them? It wouldn't be very hard to fire four rounds before your shots will have a visible affect on the assailant.

BANG.......Did I getcha? Hmmm.....he is still pointing the gun at me (and maybe even shooting if it had a been a real gun).....Guess I should shoot again.....BANG.......stop and look some more.....oops now I am dead.

pogo
09-28-2005, 7:09 AM
The NBC text of the story isn't coming through on my computer, just the boy's picture, but from Evolution's description it sounds like another case of blaming the crime victim for someone's criminal actions.

Four shots too many? I guess he should've just shot the gun out of the boy's hand with one shot like the Lone Ranger. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Justified or not doesn't seem to matter to many juries these days, I have to wonder what might happen to the poor store clerk who was just defending himself.

imported_DULLYJAY
09-28-2005, 7:09 AM
Originally posted by Colossians323
Its to bad that this punk did not get the instant justice he deserved.
By this I hope you're not wishing the kid died. That should be left for God to do. The kid was wrong BIG time and I think he got his punishment, being shot 4 times. There is still a slim chance this kid can turn for the good. It give me a ill feeling that some would wish death on a 12yr old kid. Good or bad.

The store clerk had every right to defend himself. Even if took more than 4 shots.

NYC2SoCal
09-28-2005, 7:57 AM
Originally posted by EvolutionGSR:
...What was in the article that wasn't on the news was that the gun used by the boy was a toy.

It wasn't just a toy, it was a replica. Granted most news organizations are incompetent when it comes to firearms, I view toys to be made of plastic, with bright colored parts. In this case, they said replica, which IMHO, looks, weighs, feels like the real thing, including a working slide and hammer.

I too think it was justified if the victim felt threatened. Regarding why he was shot so many times, maybe the criminal did not stop, maybe he racked the slide after being shot twice. The victim probably shot to stop the criminal, if the criminal didn't stop his aggressive demeanor, you keep shooting. I think if most of us were in the same situation, we'd do the same.. After 2 or 3 rounds, and the criminal is still acting aggressively, I believe most of us would assume we missed and shoot again. Just my $0.02

Charliegone
09-28-2005, 9:37 AM
I just read the article and it seems to me be a justified shooting in self-defense. The kid had robbed the store once already, as someone stated above and was also a troubled young teen as stated in the article. This kid learned the hard way on what not to do. I can say this because of my experiences that I have had with my family. Sometimes young kids don't want to learn the easy way, they want to learn the hard way. Unfortunately for this young man he was shot 4 times.

imported_EvolutionGSR
09-28-2005, 5:04 PM
Wow this would have been more interesting if someone would come out and disagree with us.

I really hate seeing people trying to turn the victim into the culprit through seemingly ignorant reasoning. Saying that four shots means attempted murder depends on the situation. The only way it would have been attempted murder I think is if the shop employee, after the kid fell, walked up to him and put the last shot either in the head or the chest. Even then, I read an article before that said it took 10 shots of 9mm to bring some lady down. I wonder if there was any surveilance in the shop so we could find out what really happend.

stillbigmac
09-28-2005, 5:28 PM
There is no way he should have been shot 4 times!

This guy should go to jail http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I love sarcasm.

Mssr. Eleganté
09-28-2005, 8:12 PM
Only four shots?!?!

The shop clerk should start a training program for the local PD on how to stop a perp without a mag change.

ivanimal
09-28-2005, 11:03 PM
This is a sad statement all around, a 12-year-old robber. If he had a loaded gun and killed the storeowner he wouldn’t be risking much whereas the storeowner risks all. A difficult one to dissect from afar but if it was me I would have shot to kill as well. It is survival mode that keeps us going sometimes. I think the child’s parents failed us all.

colossians323
09-29-2005, 4:10 AM
Originally posted by DULLYJAY:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Colossians323
Its to bad that this punk did not get the instant justice he deserved.
By this I hope you're not wishing the kid died. That should be left for God to do. The kid was wrong BIG time and I think he got his punishment, being shot 4 times. There is still a slim chance this kid can turn for the good. It give me a ill feeling that some would wish death on a 12yr old kid. Good or bad.

The store clerk had every right to defend himself. Even if took more than 4 shots. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
So is what your saying that God doesn't what us to defend ourselves?
Please clarify so I may cmment on this further.

colossians323
09-29-2005, 4:16 AM
Originally posted by Technical Ted:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DULLYJAY:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Colossians323
Its to bad that this punk did not get the instant justice he deserved.
By this I hope you're not wishing the kid died. That should be left for God to do. The kid was wrong BIG time and I think he got his punishment, being shot 4 times. There is still a slim chance this kid can turn for the good. It give me a ill feeling that some would wish death on a 12yr old kid. Good or bad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Surprised me coming from a man who uses a Biblical passage as a screen name.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is the suprise.
Surely I would wish for salvation for the lost first.
As I said in my post, evil exists, and neeeds to be dealt with.
Is there some sort of rule that Christians can't hope for justice.
I know vengence is the Lords, but please people, it is nice to see justice in such a time when "right is wrong, and wrong is right" to use a quote from St. Augustine.
There is no law against killing in Christianity. The pertinent commandment is thou shall not Murder.
Why is it Christians are not allowed to want justice, or defend them selves? http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

imported_DULLYJAY
09-29-2005, 6:01 AM
Originally posted by DULLYJAY:
[
The store clerk had every right to defend himself. Even if took more than 4 shots.
So is what your saying that God doesn't what us to defend ourselves?
Please clarify so I may cmment on this further.[/QUOTE]
____________________________________________

One more time. "The store clerk had every right to defend himself. Even if it took more than 4 shots."

If the threat was stopped, why should the kid die? If we get OBL(Osmam Ben Laton [sp])living. I still would not want him to die. Maybe lock him up for life. Make him live off beer & pork skins. LOL

joel1316
09-29-2005, 10:45 AM
After thinking about, I guess 4 times doesn't seem to far fetched? At the range one time, my buddy timed me. From (IPSC style)holster + three aimed shots only took about 2 seconds....
I've also had my share of playing paintball, lol. I remember playing and the opponent yelling and cussing that I got him already and to stop shooting! I guess same thing could happen in this situation? Shoot now, check to see if its safe later?

rkt88edmo
09-29-2005, 10:58 AM
Even your two second figure is probably way too long. If you drew on the buzzer you are including your drawstroke in the time. The time you want is from the first shot fired until the last shot fired.

joel1316
09-29-2005, 11:44 AM
Not to detour from a kid getting shot, but yes, it did include the draw and if I remember correctly, my time was more like 1.3(?) seconds from the holster. From first shot to last shot, that would happen in a blink of an eye, literally.....

BigAL
09-29-2005, 3:10 PM
You shoot until the threat is neutralized. If that takes 1 or 15 rounds then that's what it takes. Period.

Fastest I've been able to draw and fire (and hit a steel plate at ~7yds) was 0.9s, from buzzer to the round going off. That was with a SIG 228 and an IWB holster. But at that speed I was just point shooting and got lucky I hit the target. Someone who knows what they are doing can fire 4 rounds VERY fast.

Mark in Eureka
09-29-2005, 5:07 PM
As a armory car driver, I was very nearly in that position. I dropped my partner off at a bank and watched him go in. As he walked by a car I saw I gun tracking him. I took off my safety belt, took out my weapon, and was falling toward the gun port release when I had two seconds to take in the entire situation. It was a four or five year old kid. I had totaly fixated on the gun and focused on it alone. I can see how easy it is to make a mistake, and I will not second guess the shooting of a armed robber. You continue to fire until the threat is removed.

ivanimal
09-29-2005, 5:16 PM
JEEEEZ! That is hy there are no toy guns in this house and there never will be.

colossians323
09-30-2005, 5:50 AM
Originally posted by DULLYJAY:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DULLYJAY:
[
The store clerk had every right to defend himself. Even if took more than 4 shots.
So is what your saying that God doesn't what us to defend ourselves?
Please clarify so I may cmment on this further. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
____________________________________________

One more time. "The store clerk had every right to defend himself. Even if it took more than 4 shots."

If the threat was stopped, why should the kid die? If we get OBL(Osmam Ben Laton [sp])living. I still would not want him to die. Maybe lock him up for life. Make him live off beer & pork skins. LOL[/QUOTE]

I have never been put in the situation of having someone point a gun at me and try to rob me. Having typed this, and speaking for me only, if I was in this situation,,, and I was packing, I assume survival instincts would set in, and that I would shoot to kill. Its easy for us to call it overkill, but with adrenilan rushing, and this kid had what you thought was a real gun, yes, it would have saved society alot of grief if he had been shot dead.
Are you trying to say that if you were in this situation, you would not have shot to kill?
You would not have aimed for center body mass?
You would have aimed for his foot, or his knee cap, or maybe even shoot the gun out of his hand?

imported_DULLYJAY
09-30-2005, 8:56 AM
Originally posted by Colossians323:
Are you trying to say that if you were in this situation, you would not have shot to kill?
You would not have aimed for center body mass?
You would have aimed for his foot, or his knee cap, or maybe even shoot the gun out of his hand?
If I was in the same situation,I would shoot center of mass.I would shot tell I felt safe. If the Perp. died he put himself in that situation. I would not feel guilty over that. My probleme is, once the threat is stop why would you want him dead? If love ones & I are out of harms way I'm not going to wish I shot the guy a few more times. So that he would die. After the threat is over as a Christian I'm the type that would give CPR & pray for God to save his soul. I think our missunderstanding is not over defending one self. Its over wishing some one was dead.

icormba
09-30-2005, 9:09 AM
Originally posted by ivanimal:
JEEEEZ! That is hy there are no toy guns in this house and there never will be.

ivanimal,
I had toy guns all throughout childhood... but my mom & dad always told me... DON'T LET ME EVER SEE YOU POINTING THOSE AT ANYONE!!!

I never did & I got to continue playing with my TOYS. They also never let me take them in the car or on trips... the guns had to stay around the house or neighborhood http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif We'd play cops & robbers... but we never aimed them at each other... oh no! http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif well, not when gown-ups are around.

We never played cops and robbers near any convenient stores either, usually just in the yard. Then again... it's a different time now-a'days http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I'd be afraid of a neighbor calling SJPD and having that stupid helicopter flying overhead in about 5 minutes. Then again, as a kid... that might be kinda cool!

icormba
09-30-2005, 9:20 AM
wait a minute!!
COMPTON, Calif.????

I'd have one of these signs too!!
http://images.ibsys.com/2005/0927/5025063.jpg

I do think it's kinda funny how they took 3 pictures of this sign!!

colossians323
09-30-2005, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by DULLYJAY:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Colossians323:
Are you trying to say that if you were in this situation, you would not have shot to kill?
You would not have aimed for center body mass?
You would have aimed for his foot, or his knee cap, or maybe even shoot the gun out of his hand?
If I was in the same situation,I would shoot center of mass.I would shot tell I felt safe. If the Perp. died he put himself in that situation. I would not feel guilty over that. My probleme is, once the threat is stop why would you want him dead? If love ones & I are out of harms way I'm not going to wish I shot the guy a few more times. So that he would die. After the threat is over as a Christian I'm the type that would give CPR & pray for God to save his soul. I think our missunderstanding is not over defending one self. Its over wishing some one was dead. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what your saying is that you would shoot to kill, then you would try to revive him?
Why even use a gun for self protection ?
I think that you may be a better Christian then I, as I would not be so willing to revive those who would seek to harm my wife and kids.
I would not want to see one have a life-changing experience at the behest of losing one who is most dear to me.
I am sure that as a Christian you know evil exists, does that mean we should not seek and destroy evil, if this is the case, we all should just wait here till the next terrorist attack, and not seek them out.
Maybe we should have not bombed Japan, nor answered them back after they sought to slaughter us.
When you see evil, how much better is the world if you take it out?
Do ou think this is the end for this kids crime spree. Will it only end if he murders someone first? I understand your point of praying for the lost, but that is all you can do, it is their decision on what path they choose, and sometimes there is instant justice here and now, and other times we wait for justice. Its obvious we differ here, and maybe I should allow God to work on my heart.

But there for the grace of God go I.

rkt88edmo
09-30-2005, 12:56 PM
I think there is also a distinction here between shooting to stop and shooting to kill.

Some might say there is no real difference, some might say that the difference is vast.

BigAL
09-30-2005, 2:01 PM
I don't tend to overcomplicate things. You shoot to stop and if that results in death then whatever.

imported_DULLYJAY
09-30-2005, 2:19 PM
Originally posted by Colossians323:
Its obvious we differ here.

That is true,but O.K.
http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
War has its place and time too. I agree with what you wrote above. As Christians we most think of this.

Ephesians 6:12
"For we wrestle not against flesh & blood,but against principalities,against powers,against the rulers of the darkness of this world,against spiritual wickedness in high places."

The only way to bet this is prayer. Maybe I got a soft spot because it was a kid.

+1 on what BigAl said.

ivanimal
10-02-2005, 11:59 PM
Posted September 30, 2005 10:09 AM

quote:
Originally posted by ivanimal:
JEEEEZ! That is hy there are no toy guns in this house and there never will be.



ivanimal,
I had toy guns all throughout childhood... but my mom & dad always told me... DON'T LET ME EVER SEE YOU POINTING THOSE AT ANYONE!!!

I never did & I got to continue playing with my TOYS. They also never let me take them in the car or on trips... the guns had to stay around the house or neighborhood Smile We'd play cops & robbers... but we never aimed them at each other... oh no! Wink well, not when gown-ups are around.

We never played cops and robbers near any convenient stores either, usually just in the yard. Then again... it's a different time now-a'days Frown Frown Frown

I'd be afraid of a neighbor calling SJPD and having that stupid helicopter flying overhead in about 5 minutes. Then again, as a kid... that might be kinda cool!


My son has an airsoft AK and 2 PPK's, but they stay in the safe till his eye protection is on and we are targeting. He also has real gun we shoot but the airsoft give good practice. The video games he plays are too flippant with perception of life and death. He needs to know the difference between reality and just games. He lost the use of the airsoft for a week because he sweeped me with the muzzle. A good lesson was learned. He is really careful now.

AntiBubba 2.1
10-03-2005, 12:03 AM
I don't understand. He's such a good boy...he's just a little confused. He'd never hurt anyone...

Notice how he's slipped away from a juvenile facility, but no one seems to care?