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View Full Version : does model1sales sell unshootable POS's?


StevieC
09-24-2009, 3:27 PM
what's the deal?
you can buy a entire AR kit from them (less stripped lower) for five hundred bucks
a stripped lower can be had for a hundred bucks and change
are they terrible quality?
if not, why is everybody buying and selling 1600 dollar guns?

just wondering
thanks

Cal-Irish
09-24-2009, 3:31 PM
They are decent and have treated people well. I used to read about bolts going south. Not so much now. I bought from M&A since their customer service seemed a little better and they only sold what they had in stock during the gun buying spree.

Very happy with my M&A. And from what Ive read others are too. There is also a lot more information on m&a parts as to where they source parts for their uppers. Would I get the an expensive gun or go the same route if I were to do it again? Id go the same way. I personally don't need to spend 2k to get a rifle that performs as well as I do.

technique
09-24-2009, 3:43 PM
Not the best...and "spotty" when it comes to 5.56 stuff. .22 Uppers are good from M1.

You don't have to spend too terribly much mulla to get quality...LMT and BCM are great stuff and start (stripped) in the high $400 range. You pay that extra for the piece of mind, you know you wont have issues and you will have a product that will last.

Noobert
09-24-2009, 3:44 PM
its gonna work, but it ain't a colt

Unit74
09-24-2009, 3:47 PM
what's the deal?
you can buy a entire AR kit from them (less stripped lower) for five hundred bucks
a stripped lower can be had for a hundred bucks and change
are they terrible quality?
if not, why is everybody buying and selling 1600 dollar guns?

just wondering
thanks

Would you rather drive a Hyundai Accent or a Chevy Corvette? If all you need is basic transportation, drive the cheapo car. If you are a looking for top notch performance, pony up the dough for top shelf equipment.

tomd1584
09-24-2009, 3:53 PM
what's the deal?
you can buy a entire AR kit from them (less stripped lower) for five hundred bucks
a stripped lower can be had for a hundred bucks and change
are they terrible quality?
if not, why is everybody buying and selling 1600 dollar guns?

just wondering
thanks

alot of these $1600 guns has to do with people buying at election time when prices were inflated. Because of this, they want to get the money they actually SPENT back, not what its actually worth in todays market.

theneko
09-24-2009, 4:06 PM
I bought a M1S AR from a fellow CG'er (M1S upper, Stag lower). Great gun, one of my favorites. Have had no problems with any of the M1S parts...

swerv512
09-24-2009, 4:11 PM
alot of these $1600 guns has to do with people buying at election time when prices were inflated. Because of this, they want to get the money they actually SPENT back, not what its actually worth in todays market.

^^^
+1....
There are only a handful of $1600 ARs out there (more like $900-1100 these days)- unless we're speaking GP uppers or "high end/boutique" models.

ironman5669
09-24-2009, 4:16 PM
I have built and shot three m1 sales rifle kits in the last three months, I have shot all three on the range, and 1 in 3 gun competition. All three rifles assymbled and functioned every bit as well as my eagle arms h bar and better than both of my colts including the delta elite. The 24 inch extra heavy bull bbl from er shaw prints 1/2 inch groups all day long, and with cheap ammo. All together I have shot at least a thousand rounds thru these guns with no malfunctions. so put that in your corvette and drive it.
P.S.
anyone who would like too is welcome to meet me at the range and put their money where their overpaying mouths are!

MKfan
09-24-2009, 4:22 PM
My model 1 upper works fine, the lower parts kit had a 10 pound trigger though.

StevieC
09-24-2009, 4:25 PM
nice
thanks guys
that's what I wanted to know

anybody have experience with model1sales 6.8 or their new 6.5 "sporter" grendel clone?

shark92651
09-24-2009, 4:28 PM
Even a low-end gun like a M1S can end up being an expensive gun depending on how it is equipped. Add things like a Daniel Defense free-float rail, a pair of Troy flip ups, magpul furniture, upgraded charging handles, etc... and that $600 gun is now in the $1200+ range. Let's make sure we are comparing apples to apples here.

For the sub-$500 kit you are not getting things like a rear sight, chrome-lined barrel, 4150 steel barrel, MPI testing etc... It will probably shoot just fine for you. It just depends on how you want to spend your money - some people couldn't care less and some would rather spend a bit more for quality.

For instance right now you can spend $1149 and get a complete Daniel Defense XV rifle (http://riflegear.com/p-585-daniel-defense-xv.aspx) that includes a cold-hammer forged, chrome lined barrel, MPI tested bolt, magpul enhanced trigger guard, single-point sling attachment end plate, rear sight AND a $250 gift card you could use to install a DD Omega free-float rail system. To me that is a MUCH better value in the end than that M1S rifle that is going to cost you about $825 - $850 by the time it is mated to a lower with bullet button and rear site. I would much rather spend the extra $300 and have the fully equipped (and assembled) Daniel Defense XV with free rail upgrade!

Wayneard3413
09-24-2009, 4:31 PM
All together I have shot at least a thousand rounds thru these guns with no malfunctions. so put that in your corvette and drive it.
P.S.
anyone who would like too is welcome to meet me at the range and put their money where their overpaying mouths are!

Is that attitude really necessary? I tell you what, show up to a high round count class and see how it runs compared to us "overpaying" guys that run a higher quality gun

You have ran a thousand rounds in three months through three different guns, great... Show up and run twice that over the course of a weekend through one of them and tell me what happens

I hate to sound like a ***** but honestly you are steering this guy in the wrong direction... For a few hundred dollars more he can get a quality weapon built to spec that will continue to last

Stevie,

I think you already knew the answer coming into this... Sometimes a deal just seems too good to be true, and the age old adage that you get what you pay for still rings true

technique
09-24-2009, 4:47 PM
M1S has the bad rep in these departments
>Quality control. (let bad stuff go out the door to customers)(out of spec is the usual)
>Piss poor customer service.
>Over priced shipping. (often called outrageous)

The positive reports mainly stem from the .22 stuff and the 7.62x39 stuff.


Stevie,

What is the goal of this weapon system? Range trips with M1S should be fine for just about everyone. If its a weekend toy its probly good enough for you.
IIRC you have an SKS...that can be your business gun. But if you are looking for more than a range toy get some good info..
I'm hoping someone can find you some technical data, things you may want to consider looking into with M1S are this....
>pressure tested barrel (HPT)
>Magnetic partial inspected barrel (MPI)
>(HPT) bolt
>MPI bolt
>shot peened bolt
>properly staked gas key
>what steel is the barrel made of

These are just some things to look for or ask M1S about before you make a purchase...

technique
09-24-2009, 4:53 PM
You have ran a thousand rounds in three months through three different guns, great... Show up and run twice that over the course of a weekend through one of them and tell me what happens



Sometimes it okay to have a FTF or FTE in a budget gun at the range....but when you have someone screaming at you to clear that malfunction, its not so okay:D

When you train to win...or your gun is your job and your life, budget won't cut it.

missiontrails
09-24-2009, 4:54 PM
Even a low-end gun like a M1S can end up being an expensive gun depending on how it is equipped. Add things like a Daniel Defense free-float rail, a pair of Troy flip ups, magpul furniture, upgraded charging handles, etc... and that $600 gun is now in the $1200+ range. Let's make sure we are comparing apples to apples here.

For the sub-$500 kit you are not getting things like a rear sight, chrome-lined barrel, 4150 steel barrel, MPI testing etc... It will probably shoot just fine for you. It just depends on how you want to spend your money - some people couldn't care less and some would rather spend a bit more for quality.

For instance right now you can spend $1149 and get a complete Daniel Defense XV rifle (http://riflegear.com/p-585-daniel-defense-xv.aspx) that includes a cold-hammer forged, chrome lined barrel, MPI tested bolt, magpul enhanced trigger guard, single-point sling attachment end plate, rear sight AND a $250 gift card you could use to install a DD Omega free-float rail system. To me that is a MUCH better value in the end than that M1S rifle that is going to cost you about $825 - $850 by the time it is mated to a lower with bullet button and rear site. I would much rather spend the extra $300 and have the fully equipped (and assembled) Daniel Defense XV with free rail upgrade!

I agree. If you plan on purchasing all the add-ons, it makes no sense to now go with high-end extras, because then your total investment is equal to just purchasing a quality proven factory rifle. I don't want to say things like "put make-up on a pig", but putting high-end furniture on a entry-level rifle is like putting $3000 20" wheels on a cheap car.

gun toting monkeyboy
09-24-2009, 4:55 PM
I have 2 M1S AR uppers. The first was a 16" carbine upper only, as I had a BCG and a stock. The second was a 20" rifle that was a complete kit. They were my first ARs, and they have worked just fine. I splurged and got the extra chrome lining for $35 on each of them. I have no complaints. I like my Anvil Arms upper better, but that is more a matter of personal taste than actual function. If you are looking at getting a basic rifle, they are really hard to beat. The only down side is the wait time. The are just now filling their orders from February. So it may take 6-8 months for them to get to you if you order now. I put a dissapator upper on order about 2 months ago, and I am truthfully not expecting to see it before spring. But for the price, I can afford to wait. If you are really in a hurry to put something together, Midway still has some inexpensive DPMS complete uppers in stock. You get one of those, a LPK, and a M1S stock through them and you can put together a kit that will be on your doorstep in a matter of days for less than $600. My brother has done that several times lately. Counting his lower receiver, I believe his lowest cost one so far was $603 out the door. Alas, they are out of the $374 DPMS uppers now though.

-Mb

Wayneard3413
09-24-2009, 4:57 PM
Sometimes it okay to have a FTF or FTE in a budget gun at the range....but when you have someone screaming at you to clear that malfunction, its not so okay:D

When you train to win...or your gun is your job and your life, budget won't cut it.

My line of thinking exactly... A malfunction with a range toy just provides a couple seconds of frustration... That same malfunction during a life and death encounter may prove to be a showstopper

missiontrails
09-24-2009, 5:05 PM
My line of thinking exactly... A malfunction with a range toy just provides a couple seconds of frustration... That same malfunction during a life and death encounter may prove to be a showstopper
+1. I just can't figure out why people buying battle rifles are so into shaving $100-$200 off their purchase by buying ENTRY level brands. Just like in the car business... there are always those people who show up with barely enough $$ to buy something decent, then you see them a week later with $$$$$$ worth of added BS on or in their clunker.

gun toting monkeyboy
09-24-2009, 5:11 PM
Ok, I went through and checked it out. With my C&R discount at midway, I can put together a complete kit for $540, less the lower receiver.

$405 for the complete DPMS carbine upper
$35 for a M1S 4 position stock
$5 for a butt pad (not essential, but it is only $5)

$65 for a lower parts kit either from midway ($61 less the pistol grip, which is another $3) or from any of the other suppliers out there who have them in stock. They all seem to be going for right around $65. I personally like the Anvil Arms kits, and they seemed to go together well, and had good triggers.

$30 for a Bullet Button from your choice of dealers.

Add you lower receiver, and you are all set and will have your gun together in less than a week. Without the FFL discount at Midway, it would probably run about $30 more.

-Mb

p.s. I just found a 20" flat top complete DPMS on Midway for $396.

technique
09-24-2009, 5:11 PM
Another thing to look into Stevie is questioning about those ER Shaw barrels that come in some of the kits...

ERS makes good stuff, but heres the kicker...did M1S buy quality barrel blanks from ERS and turn them in house? Hehehe....Like companies to M1S (Hesse, Blackthorne/M&S) are notorious for sub-par tooling...IE they don't change them frequently enough. Hence..."SPOTTY" in my original post...you get one turned on fresh tooling you may come out okay. You get one turned on worn tooling....you get the bad rep.

Addax
09-24-2009, 8:20 PM
When you train to win...or your gun is your job and your life, budget won't cut it.

+1, I could not agree with you more.

StevieC
09-24-2009, 8:31 PM
Stevie,

What is the goal of this weapon system? Range trips with M1S should be fine for just about everyone. If its a weekend toy its probly good enough for you.
IIRC you have an SKS...that can be your business gun. But if you are looking for more than a range toy get some good info..
I'm hoping someone can find you some technical data, things you may want to consider looking into with M1S are this....
>pressure tested barrel (HPT)
>Magnetic partial inspected barrel (MPI)
>(HPT) bolt
>MPI bolt
>shot peened bolt
>properly staked gas key
>what steel is the barrel made of

These are just some things to look for or ask M1S about before you make a purchase...

thanks
yeah I got the SKS and a couple others
my shooting is just humping through the desert popping jack rabbits and an occasional coyote, I'm not a big gun fanatic, or a gear freak, just like shooting

dchang0
09-24-2009, 10:04 PM
alot of these $1600 guns has to do with people buying at election time when prices were inflated. Because of this, they want to get the money they actually SPENT back, not what its actually worth in todays market.

LOL--well said. It's the same with houses. There are people in my neighborhood trying to sell itty bitty little houses for $750k, because they owe $800k to $1m on 'em.

Like anyone's stupid enough to buy a house for $750k that was worth $250k before the frenzy...

coop44
09-25-2009, 7:54 AM
a lot of us (including me) have to defend the logic of buying a high priced AR. My first 3 AR's built back in '95, consisted of:
stripped bushmaster lowers (traded an M1 carbine for them, into that for 250)
bought 2 parts kits from sarco (at the time I think the complete kit minus lower was $300.)
pieced the third kit together at gun shows.I was into these no more than 450 each, and am still very proud of the accomplishment, sold one to a buddy, he still has it and shoots it, kept one, and lost track of the fellow who bought the third.

they all shot(shoot) quite well.
I still have my favorite 20" A2.

SCMA-1
09-25-2009, 8:44 AM
Many incorrectly believe that price paid is somehow proportional to quality received; nothing can be farther from the truth. In a free market, there are all sorts of factors that drive end user price including but not limited to clever marketing/advertising, competition, and gullible consumers. I've been building AR type rifles from "generic" lowers and parts kits since the 80's; some of my builds have cost as little as $300 (total) and with the exception of an occasional non-spec small part here and there that has to be replaced and a very rare defective major component every so often (even big name outfits are not immune to this), all have functioned reliably exhibiting good wear characteristics and more than acceptable accuracy (more than 100 to date). All major components of these generic parts kits are manufactured by some of the same OEM's and contractors that supply the name brand outfits and so it's no surprise that they would build up into properly functioning rifles.

Hunter158
09-25-2009, 10:59 AM
For not much more than the OP quoted you can buy a gun "kit" from RRA, and have a known brand.

RRA gun kits (http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=199)

BTW!!! Comes WITH the NM two stage trigger kit!!!

technique
09-25-2009, 11:14 AM
Review the chart...

This will give you a side by side comparison feature wise...of who gives you what. At the bottom of the page, be sure to click on "specs" too. Not all ARs are created equal.
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&hl=en

kamagong
09-25-2009, 11:18 AM
How hard are you going to run this gun? How much are you going to shoot it? If you plan on using this AR a lot, you might as well spend a little bit more up front, it'll be worth it in the long run. Remember that the cost of firearm is small when calculating the total cost of operating said firearm; you'll quickly spend more than that on ammo. Buy the best quality you can afford.

fal_762x51
09-25-2009, 11:27 AM
I build a Colt 607ish on a M1S kit with a A1 upper and it's good shooting. The second is a scoped carbine with a M1S barrel and A3 upper; I can hit the 200 yard gong all day. I think they are more of an in between; better than blackthorne, but not a Noveske.

Barney Gumble
09-25-2009, 12:13 PM
my shooting is just humping through the desert popping jack rabbits and an occasional coyote, I'm not a big gun fanatic, or a gear freak, just like shooting

Then M1S should be fine for you.

gun toting monkeyboy
09-28-2009, 11:55 AM
Just a quick update. Midway, who wasn't supposed to have the $374 DPMS complete uppers in stock until next May, just emailed me that mine are being shipped today. I checked their website, and they are listed as "In Stock". It is listed as a 16" bull barrel in .223, but the stamp on the barrel of the last one I got is marked 5.56. Be aware that these are oddballs with no forward assist or dust cover. But for the price, they can't be beat. If you have your C&R or any other FFL on file with them, you get the dealer's price. Retail is probably within about $20. If you need an upper fast, I would get an order in now before they sell out again. Have fun.

-Mb

B Strong
09-28-2009, 12:29 PM
Jerry Drasen = Nesard = Sendra = Model 1 sales.

Do your homework.

gregorylucas
09-28-2009, 12:40 PM
I ordered an LPK from them several years ago with no problems.

Greg

wash
09-28-2009, 1:29 PM
Do you have a link, I can't find it (dpms at midway).

gun toting monkeyboy
09-28-2009, 2:07 PM
http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/#519542____-_1-2-4_8-16-32

The retail price is $405. Definately a good reason to spend the $30 to get your C&R if you don't already have one.

-Mb

wash
09-28-2009, 2:52 PM
That just gets to a search page for me...

gun toting monkeyboy
09-28-2009, 3:24 PM
That just gets to a search page for me...

It works from my computer. Sorry. The product number is 519542. Try letting the page load for a few seconds. Midway has possibly the slowest website out there.

sevensix2x51
09-28-2009, 4:18 PM
midway used to be fine, but since they updated the site, everything is broken... :( makes it hard to find what i need...

gun toting monkeyboy
09-28-2009, 4:25 PM
Tell me about it. It took me 10 minutes to find the gun parts section after they switched. And some days I get error messages at least half the time. But you can't say the old site was any better. It sucked too, just in different ways.

reidnez
09-28-2009, 5:47 PM
midway used to be fine, but since they updated the site, everything is broken... :( makes it hard to find what i need...

Most firearms-related businesses--with a few notable exceptions--seem to be stuck c. 1998 when it comes to website design. I've always wondered why.

Seesm
09-28-2009, 6:12 PM
I have a model 1 on my ladies rifle and it works fine... Good cheap alternative to the high end ones...

bohoki
09-28-2009, 7:29 PM
i would pic a 20 incher over a 16 incher kit the shortees often take some tuning

Czechsix
09-28-2009, 9:56 PM
I have a 16" m1s, ran 1k through it one day, in between other fun. No issues. I'm just under 4k round count now, still no hiccups. Most range sessions see at least 300 rounds through it. For what it is, I'm satisfied with it. It could be a lucky one, but I've seen all of the companies have problems - including Noveske.

maxima
09-28-2009, 10:08 PM
Ordered a M1S A2 stock kits, did not show shipping charge while placing the order. Got charged $15 for UPS later:mad:. The trap door is super tight as hell. Based on this, no more M1S for me.

The $374.99 DPMS upper is not a super good deal, with shipping it will be about $387: it is not chrome lined, no front and rear sights, and the bull barrel is very very heavy. You may get stag arms 2H upper for about $500 shipped, with chrome lined M4 profile barrel and MI BUIS, provided you do not mind the long wait. Way better than the DPMS deal, IMHO.

caoboy
09-28-2009, 10:09 PM
Do they guarantee their products? If so, for how long? 1 year? 3? Lifetime of the rifle or the owner?