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View Full Version : any way for us to own an AW out of state?


tleary
02-26-2005, 5:12 PM
Hey guys,

I was wondering If there is any way for us to get our hands on an AW out of state and store it out of state. Frontsight in NV offers storage of AWs for Kalifornians, but is there any legal way of us getting guns and storing it there? I am there quite often so I would use them maybe 3-4 times a year. I would ask my friend to buy one, but his wife might not like the idea and it wouldn't technically be mine since it his under his name. It would be nice to get my hand on an M4 or the new ROBARMS XCR.

tleary
02-26-2005, 5:12 PM
Hey guys,

I was wondering If there is any way for us to get our hands on an AW out of state and store it out of state. Frontsight in NV offers storage of AWs for Kalifornians, but is there any legal way of us getting guns and storing it there? I am there quite often so I would use them maybe 3-4 times a year. I would ask my friend to buy one, but his wife might not like the idea and it wouldn't technically be mine since it his under his name. It would be nice to get my hand on an M4 or the new ROBARMS XCR.

fastmanusa
02-26-2005, 5:37 PM
Yeah there is a way. If Robams Arms would sell a stripped receiver you could buy the receiver here in California then take it accross state lines build it into a complete rifle and store it their as an AW and be %100 legal.

Roboshred
02-26-2005, 5:40 PM
Straw purchases are illegal and compromise the legal ownership of such firearms for those of us that abide by the law. I think you know the answer to the question you ask. RB

LongBch_SigP226
02-26-2005, 8:24 PM
I don't know if this is legal but there is a class III dealer in Vegas (NV) that will store your class III gun. The gun will be registered under his name and stored on his property. If you want to shoot it, he'll accompany you to the range and he takes it back to his home/office once you are done. If you move to any machine gun friendly state, that gun can be transfered to you.

Click on Non-Class III States Link (http://members.aol.com/zeusnaris/main.html)

esskay
02-27-2005, 2:31 AM
Some more options:
- Buy RobArms M96 from someone who will remove the pistol grip before shipping. Buy a folding stock for it. When you go out of state, replace the grip and stock.
- Buy or build a Kali FAL with a screw-type fixed mag release. When out of state, replace the mag release with a regular one.
- Buy an M1A/M14 variant and spare folding/collapsible stock. When out of state swap the standard stock with the other stock.
- Buy Mini-14 and spare folding stock. When out of state, swap stocks.
- Buy an M-1 carbine and spare paratrooper folding stock. When out of state, swap stocks.

Oh yeah, don't forget muzzle brakes only. You could swap on a flash hider when out of state.

Turbinator
02-27-2005, 8:34 AM
Couldn't you also theoretically and legally buy an 80% AR receiver, go out of state, complete it as a no-ban rifle, store it there, and come back home? Sounds about right..

Turby

tleary
02-27-2005, 1:30 PM
Thanks for the responses.

bwiese
02-27-2005, 2:08 PM
PRKNative...

EssKay and Turbinator have it right. And storage is different than acquisition.

And as I recall there's some place(s) in Reno, NV that store Californian's AWs for those that didn't wanna register and (wisely) didn't wanna be felons.

Thus: <UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> because of both Federal and CA law, a CA resident essentially can't acquire any firearm outside the state - a CA FFL has to be involved in the transfer;

<LI> because of above a CA resident can only get unbanned firearms in CA with use of CA FFL dealer;

<LI> the only realistic firearms that could be legally converted out of state to an "AW pattern" are CaliFALs, RobArms M96s, folder M1As and folder Mini 14s, and perhaps some HK clones built up out of state - non-HK HK-style receivers are legal in CA, and could be built up into an HK9X outside CA.

<LI> the pump-action AKs that are legal in CA _may_ (not sure) be modifiable back to regular AK status in a free state. Federal 922(r) domestic parts compliance may be relevant here as well.[/list]


Bill Wiese
San Jose

imported_booknut
02-28-2005, 12:05 PM
I've been working on this issue myself.
Unfortunately, I've been spending more time on family issues than other issues.

So far what I've done is to send letters to the CADOJ and the BATFE.

My basic question/premise is this;
-California outlaws the purchase of AW's in this state by citizens as defined by the state.
-The federal government does not outlaw the purchase of AW's as defined by California.
-The federal government requires firearms purchases to be conducted according to the laws of any state in which the buyer/seller reside.
-California does not have the authority to tell us what we can own outside of the state.
- As U.S. cititzens, we should be legally allowed to purchase a federally legal firearm out of state as long as we do not bring a 'banned' firearm into California.

The problem as described in letters sent to me by the CADOJ and the BATFE, is that we have to use a California FFL to make the purchase. This is not allowed in California for us regular citizens.

I'm hoping to find something that will put this stance up for legal questioning.
I'm not looking at firearms law neccessarily, but also at commerce law. I'll look anywhere that might be applicable.
It'll take longer than I thought because of the other commitments I mentioned at the beginning.
But I will keep at it.

Other than the options some folks have listed above, you cannot currently, legally, go out of state and purchase a California banned AW.

bwiese
02-28-2005, 1:49 PM
Booknut...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As U.S. cititzens, we should be legally allowed to purchase a federally legal firearm out of state as long as we do not bring a 'banned' firearm into California. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep!

The problem is that Federal gun law (I am pretty sure it's part of GCA '68) allows states to determine certain eligibility criteria, etc. for gun sales/purchases.

Aside from gun/freedom issues, this was originally, at first blush, a tip of the hat to states' rights - setting minimum standards and then further allowing enhancements/changes to purportedly befit each state.

But the crux of the problem now is that it deprives, say, a Nevada gun dealer of business from me (a CA resident) within Nevada for a gun that will stay in Nevada. And if the gun itself were produced in Nevada too that would be an even bigger travesty.

THIS IS WAY BIGGER THAN ANY ASSAULT WEAPON OR BANNED WEAPON TYPE OR APPROVED WEAPONS ISSUES.

This may be challengeable on two fronts - even though Fed law allows CA to do so, the CA law is the actual law causing problems. And of course there's the element of Fed law (GCA'68?) that enables CA law. Attacking CA law solves the short term problem but attacking the enabling Fed law clause may fix the problem nationwide.

Thus CA gun law - fully aside from any general 2nd Amendment freedom issues - with abettment by enabling Federal law: <UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI> affects something entirely out of what should be CA's legal purview;

<LI> CA should not be able to have a 'hold' on its own citizens' behavior when that activity is done out of state and no element of that behavior touches upon or reaches back into CA;

<LI> CA law should NOT be able to affect an entirely [/I]INTRAstate business activity[/I] in another state (if the gun were to be mfgd, sold and continues to stay in, say, NV). (This may be a key element if it gets to courts.)

<LI> CA law should NOT be able to affect [/I]interstate commerce[/I] that's completely in other states. CA residency is irrelevant as long a gun not brought back into CA. (that is, CA resident should be able to purchase a gun mfgd in, say, Utah, and sold to him in, say, NV);
[/list]

This will take some serious lawyering on a national basis. You're gonna end up confronting state AGs from multiple states in Fed courts.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

02-28-2005, 4:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bwiese:
Aside from gun/freedom issues, this was originally, at first blush, a tip of the hat to states' rights - setting minimum standards and then further allowing enhancements/changes to purportedly befit each state.

But the crux of the problem now is that it deprives, say, a Nevada gun dealer of business from me (a CA resident) within Nevada for a gun that will stay in Nevada. And if the gun itself were produced in Nevada too that would be an even bigger travesty.

<span class="ev_code_RED">THIS IS WAY BIGGER THAN ANY ASSAULT WEAPON OR BANNED WEAPON TYPE OR APPROVED WEAPONS ISSUES.</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.
If Mississippi were to enact a state law allowing the (re)legalization of slavery, that state law would unarguably conflict with the US Constitution and thus inevitably be challenged on those grounds.

The same can be said for countless state laws in CA (and elsewhere), many of which are gun-related but not simply limited to the 2nd Amendment.

bwiese
02-28-2005, 5:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Basura Blanca:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">bwiese wrote:
THIS IS WAY BIGGER THAN ANY ASSAULT WEAPON OR BANNED WEAPON TYPE OR APPROVED WEAPONS ISSUES. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...(snipped)...

The same can be said for countless state laws in CA (and elsewhere), many of which are gun-related but not simply limited to the 2nd Amendment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


My point is that there's a lot of interstate commerce and simple state vs. Fed. law interaction here. This is not just a gun issue, and it could apply to used cars or vegetables or anything else: it's a matter of 'remote control' across state lines where this control should NOT exist.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

Ford8N
02-28-2005, 5:13 PM
booknut and bwiese, you both bring up excellent points. This is a Constitutional problem. As was noted, MUCH bigger than AW's. Does the Fourteenth Amendment, Section 1 apply to us or not?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> But the crux of the problem now is that it deprives, say, a Nevada gun dealer of business from me (a CA resident) within Nevada for a gun that will stay in Nevada. And if the gun itself were produced in Nevada too that would be an even bigger travesty.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a gun produced in Nevada, that as a Kalifornian you are not allowed to purchase. The Arsenal SA-7's. Excellently made milled receiver AK's. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif I want one. But I am denied the right to spend my money on a legal product because of where I live at the moment. Not because of some criminal history, (I don't even have a ticket to my name) but just because this state has a crime problem and they don't know how to deal with the problem. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif But that's another thread. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

02-28-2005, 5:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bwiese:
My point is that there's a lot of interstate commerce and simple state vs Fed law interaction here. This has nothing to do with guns and could apply to used cars or vegetables: it's a matter of 'remote control' across state lines where this control should NOT exist.

Bill Wiese
San Jose </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know. I agreed with you.
http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

bwiese
03-03-2005, 9:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Turbinator wrote:
Couldn't you also theoretically and legally buy an 80% AR receiver, go out of state, complete it as a no-ban rifle, store it there, and come back home? Sounds about right.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could indeed, to best of my knowledge. Check local laws of state in question first, of course.

Get the unpapered 80% forging, go to a free state (like NV or AZ), mill it out to a full AR lower, and store it there.

This is essentially similar in many ways to CA folks who had AWs but didn't want to reg in 2000: they moved their AWs to storage in Reno and Vegas. Some folks reg'd some AWs in CA and shipped/stored their others in NV to have options on both sides of the line.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

bwiese
03-03-2005, 10:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ford8N wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But the crux of the problem now is that it deprives, say, a Nevada gun dealer of business from me (a CA resident) within Nevada for a gun that will stay in Nevada. And if the gun itself were produced in Nevada too that would be an even bigger travesty. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a gun produced in Nevada, that as a Kalifornian you are not allowed to purchase. The Arsenal SA-7's. Excellently made milled receiver AK's. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif I want one. But I am denied the right to spend my money on a legal product because of where I live at the moment. Not because of some criminal history, (I don't even have a ticket to my name)... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is the Aresenal completely NV-made? Receiver made in NV? All parts made in NV? (I'm wondering - I'd bet it's a 10-or-less key foreign parts 922(r) gun w/US receiver.)

The cleanest test case would be a completely Nevada made gun, with no parts from out of state or out of country.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

Ford8N
03-03-2005, 9:18 PM
It's not a complete US made. The SA7 receiver is US made and 4 or 5 US internals to make it "legal". The rest is imported directly from Bulgaria. But it is assembled by US workers in Vegas. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But there is hardly any complete US made product anymore these days. Globalization ya know. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif