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Rommel
09-23-2009, 2:52 PM
I replaced the stock my POF 308 and this is how the buffer tube looked after ~ 400 rounds. Anybody have any ideas on what I can do to fix this???? Its worn through enough quite a bit, I have emailed these to POF as well but have not heard back yet. Anybody have any suggestions on how to fix this? Do I need to send my upper back to POF? Below you will see the pics of the wear on the buffer tube.



http://picasaweb.google.com/RommelF50/Fun#5384798949406696706

http://picasaweb.google.com/RommelF50/Fun#5384798956274012770

ar15barrels
09-23-2009, 2:53 PM
Remove the piston setup and replace it with a normal carrier and gas tube.

technique
09-23-2009, 2:55 PM
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/Anti-Carrier-tilt-No-Tilt-t39548.html

Ditch the POF and get an Addax.

Rommel
09-23-2009, 2:59 PM
Anybody have any real advice or is everybody a smart ***?

CHS
09-23-2009, 3:01 PM
Anybody have any real advice or is everybody a smart ***?

No one's being a smart ***.

Carrier tilt is a problem with gas-piston uppers. Always will be.

If you're that afraid of it, ditch the gas-piston.

Rommel
09-23-2009, 3:04 PM
So there is no fix for this? Every GPU does this? Will it wear through the tube eventually? I cannot imagine that every single GPU gun requires a tube replacement every few thousand rounds.....

ar15barrels
09-23-2009, 3:08 PM
So there is no fix for this? Every GPU does this?

No fix.
Every GPU does it to some degree.
The wear slows down and stops on it's own.

If it bothers you, GPU's are not for you.

DI guns don't do this.

Rommel
09-23-2009, 3:09 PM
I know DI guns don't do it, I have two other ARs that do not have an issue.

If it will stop on its own I will not worry about it.... I just want to make sure it doesn't damage the lower by wearing through the buffer tube.

SMGLee
09-23-2009, 3:09 PM
Not every GPU...

Carrier tilt is a problem with every GPU design, but some manufacture seem to be about to work out the kinks...

Manufacture that has the problem resolved...

HK
LMT
LWRC
PWS

Carrier tilt is because you have a piston hitting a rod that in turn push against the bolt carrier, since the original carrier was design for DI guns, the balance of the piston just toss the balance part of the carrier to hell...so your carrier instead of traveling straight back into the buffer tube, it is now wobbling into the tube. hence the carrier tilt.

the carrier tilt problem on your POF is not a problem you can fix.. it is a engineering problem.

technique
09-23-2009, 3:10 PM
did you click the link before you called us smart asses or?????

That buffer helps carrier tilt.....do you need to be called the opposite of smart with an *** at the end? :p

ar15barrels
09-23-2009, 3:11 PM
Chen sure got here quick.

I think he has a gas piston thread alert pager...

technique
09-23-2009, 3:11 PM
My DI has "tilt"

Rommel
09-23-2009, 3:12 PM
did you click the link before you called us smart asses or?????

That buffer helps carrier tilt.....do you need to be called the opposite of smart with an *** at the end? :p

Yes I read that link before I even started the thread, I don't see anywhere where it lists they offer a 308 DPMS style buffer....

You also told me to get an addax upper, Addax doesn't list a 308 upper on their site from what I see.....

SMGLee
09-23-2009, 3:15 PM
Yes I read that link before I even started the thread, I don't see anywhere where it lists they offer a 308 DPMS style buffer....

You also told me to get an addax upper, Addax doesn't list a 308 upper on their site from what I see.....

buddy, seriously, get a DI gas 308 upper, you will thank me for it. the piston gun usually have a heavier recoil compare to the DI guns, and with a 308, you will feel this more than the DI gun. besides everything tend to get tear apart faster in a 308 gun and to add the extra issues of the piston, you are better off with the DI gas gun..

Look at it this way, US Army went to a DI gas 308 sniper system in the KAC M110. there is a reason to it.

ar15barrels
09-23-2009, 3:15 PM
Someone call Chris quick.
We need all the usual players to be in the game!

technique
09-23-2009, 3:23 PM
I miss read you post....I missed the .308 part.

My apologies.

Rommel
09-23-2009, 3:23 PM
buddy, seriously, get a DI gas 308 upper, you will thank me for it. the piston gun usually have a heavier recoil compare to the DI guns, and with a 308, you will feel this more than the DI gun. besides everything tend to get tear apart faster in a 308 gun and to add the extra issues of the piston, you are better off with the DI gas gun..

Look at it this way, US Army went to a DI gas 308 sniper system in the KAC M110. there is a reason to it.

Still not being any real help besides telling me to get rid of what I have.


Any other POF 308 owners out there that can chime in?

ar15barrels
09-23-2009, 3:25 PM
Any other POF 308 owners out there that can chime in?

We have one guy we shoot precision rifle with that has one.
He keeps sending it back, trying to get them to make it more accurate...

Rommel
09-23-2009, 3:28 PM
I have no problems with accuracy on mine, shoots sub MOA with factory ammo... I just want to know if I need to worry about the buffer tube wear. If it will stop or keep getting worse. Or possibly if there is some sort of fix for it.

I could do without the smarty pants answers of get rid of it and get a DI upper. My POF has never had any problems besides this buffer tube wear.

technique
09-23-2009, 3:30 PM
You should just get in contact with the guy who makes those buffers see if he will make one for you....or possibly re-weight one for .308(?)

bomb_on_bus
09-23-2009, 3:32 PM
I have a couple POFs both in 5.56 and .308 give Frank a call or PM me, it hasn't been an issue with mine, but I have heard a bunch of whiners on the topic with some actually good ideas once all the crying has stopped.

Right now the focus is on a redesigned buffer that stops carrier tilt and also has a bit more heft to it.

I wouldn't ditch the gun at all, just keep in mind you have a platform that is as accurate as the KAC M110 for a few thousand less. If you got the whole KAC M110 package that they sell the Army your looking at 17k whereas using the POF platform and going a similar route will get you there under 6k.

dchang0
09-23-2009, 3:37 PM
I wonder if they couldn't just round off the edges of the carrier a bit so that the wear is greatly reduced...

Alternately they can tighten the tubular path that the carrier travels down to remove any space that would allow it to tilt, but that would introduce reliability issues.

A modified buffer that "receives" the carrier better, perhaps with a truncated conical center that forces the carrier to align itself with the buffer would work.

buffybuster
09-23-2009, 3:53 PM
Every Gas Piston conversion (POF, LWRC, PWS, Ruger, LMT, HK etc) of the Stoner AR design will experience carrier tilt to varying degrees. Most designs have some features to minimize carrier tilt. However, since the op-rod is impacting the tappet asymmetrical to the CenterLine of the BCG, the carrier will tilt. Some manufacturers alter the angle of the tappet in an effort to redirect some of the forces and others put have a larger diameter or nub at the rear of the carrier to minimize the amount of tilt. Whatever the band-aid solution, it does not and cannot resolve carrier tilt without moving the force to the CenterLine of the BCG.

The new PWS/Addax system with the unitized carrier and op-rod assembly does the most to minimize carrier tilt but I can't vouch for overall reliability/durability.

ar15barrels
09-23-2009, 4:01 PM
You should just get in contact with the guy who makes those buffers see if he will make one for you....or possibly re-weight one for .308(?)

A 308 carbine needs a special short buffer.

ar15barrels
09-23-2009, 4:03 PM
keep in mind you have a platform that is as accurate as the KAC M110 for a few thousand less.

You mean to keep wishing right?

technique
09-23-2009, 4:05 PM
A 308 carbine needs a special short buffer.

Then I suppose he should contact that guy and have one made.

Addax
09-23-2009, 4:17 PM
Someone call Chris quick.
We need all the usual players to be in the game!

I received my page..

I was a bit indisposed reading my new copy of American Rifleman and the M4 Carbine..

Btw, it is a decent article about the M4.

Addax
09-23-2009, 4:28 PM
Still not being any real help besides telling me to get rid of what I have.


Any other POF 308 owners out there that can chime in?


Rommel,

As Randall (AR15 Barrels) already pointed out, all Gas Piston Uppers have a varying degree of carrier tilt. I will add, that the degree of carrier tilt will vary from mild / minimal to noticeable.

As Technique already linked you to, Seth (FRS) has developed an Anti-Tilt Buffer to work with piston driven AR's, and he might be able to help you out directly with your concerns.

I have tested several prototypes and I can say that it does really help to reduce carrier tilt by at least 80%, and I am being very conservative with my estimate.

There is carrier tilt with the DI AR, but it is so minimal, that it does not ever really show signs of it.

You will notice more carrier tilt with the piston driven AR, due to the nature of their design, and operation.

Pushing or with some piston systems, hammering the carrier and bolt into operation, thus your operation is not center of bore like in a DI AR, but top center.

Hitting / striking the carrier on a piston driven AR on top, is going to enduce the rear end of the carrier to take a dip at the rear end during operation.

Some mfg's (like PWS) who we use on our piston driven AR's, have a fixed op-rod design, and the rod rides within a mothered piston tube. This design helps to absorb some of the energy and keep the carrier more aligned, so there is only minimal carrier tilt, vs. the gouging like we have seen with some systems.

Other mfg's (Adams Arms, CMMG, LMT, HK etc.) have designed padded or enlarged carriers at the rear to help the carrier ease into the buffer tube vs. the rear edge hitting and gouging the buffer tube.

The worse cases of carrier tilt we have ever seen with some (not all) piston driven AR is carved up buffer tubes.

Send Seth (anti-tilt buffer) and email, and he may be able to help you.

Some POF owners have reported no signs of serious carrier tilt whatsoever, and some others have, and this is based on what I have read on various Internet Forums.

Hope this helps, and good luck.

Chris

bigbob76
09-23-2009, 4:43 PM
did you click the link before you called us smart asses or?????

That buffer helps carrier tilt.....do you need to be called the opposite of smart with an *** at the end? :p

You crack me up, thanks for the link and for the laugh. I guess I'm officially old school/old fashoined. There are so many fascinating firearms available. Why transform something when you can just have the original that does what you want. AR is DI in 5.56. If you want a .308 or a gas operating system choose an original design. Have a bunch of guns that do what they were designed to do and stop torturing the poor things. Did I leave myself open to get a history lesson?

Rommel
09-23-2009, 4:47 PM
Chris, thank you for the very helpful response. Do you have Seth's contact info I did not see it on that other forum. You can PM it to me if you do not want to post publicly. TIA!

Rommel,

As Randall (AR15 Barrels) already pointed out, all Gas Piston Uppers have a varying degree of carrier tilt. I will add, that the degree of carrier tilt will vary from mild / minimal to noticeable.

As Technique already linked you to, Seth (FRS) has developed an Anti-Tilt Buffer to work with piston driven AR's, and he might be able to help you out directly with your concerns.

I have tested several prototypes and I can say that it does really help to reduce carrier tilt by at least 80%, and I am being very conservative with my estimate.

There is carrier tilt with the DI AR, but it is so minimal, that it does not ever really show signs of it.

You will notice more carrier tilt with the piston driven AR, due to the nature of their design, and operation.

Pushing or with some piston systems, hammering the carrier and bolt into operation, thus your operation is not center of bore like in a DI AR, but top center.

Hitting / striking the carrier on a piston driven AR on top, is going to enduce the rear end of the carrier to take a dip at the rear end during operation.

Some mfg's (like PWS) who we use on our piston driven AR's, have a fixed op-rod design, and the rod rides within a mothered piston tube. This design helps to absorb some of the energy and keep the carrier more aligned, so there is only minimal carrier tilt, vs. the gouging like we have seen with some systems.

Other mfg's (Adams Arms, CMMG, LMT, HK etc.) have designed padded or enlarged carriers at the rear to help the carrier ease into the buffer tube vs. the rear edge hitting and gouging the buffer tube.

The worse cases of carrier tilt we have ever seen with some (not all) piston driven AR is carved up buffer tubes.

Send Seth (anti-tilt buffer) and email, and he may be able to help you.

Some POF owners have reported no signs of serious carrier tilt whatsoever, and some others have, and this is based on what I have read on various Internet Forums.

Hope this helps, and good luck.

Chris

evollep3
09-23-2009, 4:48 PM
i guess im lucky my pof dont show any tilt whew!

Addax
09-23-2009, 4:51 PM
Chris, thank you for the very helpful response. Do you have Seth's contact info I did not see it on that other forum. You can PM it to me if you do not want to post publicly. TIA!

I will PM you his email address.

Let him know your situation, and you have a .308.

He may want to see your bolt carrier for measurements etc.

No problem on helping you out.

Chris

DirtRacer151
09-23-2009, 5:23 PM
Still not being any real help besides telling me to get rid of what I have.


Any other POF 308 owners out there that can chime in?

So far i've had mine for about 5 months. So far i've grown half a head of gray hairs from the stress and frustration this things put me through. So far i've wasted 300 rnds and still cant get it to shoot well. So far its been back to the factory once and while they did fix MOST of my problems they still didn't fix the most important one of all... THEY CANT MAKE IT SHOOT WHERE I POINT IT!! So far i wish every night before bed that Santa will leave me a better AR10 style gun that shoots worth half a **** but so far im **** outta luck.

Oh yeah... and mine has ZERO problems with carrier tilt so far! :D

Rommel
09-23-2009, 5:31 PM
I had a problem with mine at first but I narrowed it down to my scope mount and replaced it with a Larue SPR and its been great since, sub MOA with factory ammo when I do my part...

technique
09-23-2009, 5:34 PM
Those buffers really are the **** let me know if he makes you one....I might be in need soon.

Rommel
09-23-2009, 5:41 PM
Those buffers really are the **** let me know if he makes you one....I might be in need soon.

I emailed him, we will see what he says.

Nessal
09-23-2009, 7:07 PM
Ditch the POF. There are so many better GPU out there than the POF.

CHS
09-23-2009, 7:25 PM
Ditch the POF. There are so many better GPU out there than the POF.

Don't tell that to POF owners. Or the company. They are the best GPU in the WORLD. Just ask them :)

bomb_on_bus
09-23-2009, 7:30 PM
You mean to keep wishing right?


LOL I thought I would get a bite, KAC shoots around 1MOA at 100 yards unsuppressed and around .3-.4 suppressed. Using the 175gr military target ammo.

POF 308 can do that unsuppressed and heres the link from a couple years back http://www.pof-usa.com/articles/GW_POF-USA_P308_[1].pdf.

My setup with 168gr SMKs can punch oblong holes all day long at the range well within the sub .5moa range. I have managed to get a couple .3 holes but have averaged well within .4-.5range. Now I'm not the best shooter out there and I have seen the rifle do better when my father has shot it. So yeah I can say its as good as the KAC M110.

ar15barrels
09-23-2009, 8:26 PM
Some POF owners have reported no signs of serious carrier tilt whatsoever, and some others have

It probably has to do with tolerance stacking.
Take a loose receiver bore and combine it with a small carrier and you have a formula for the tilt to show up on the buffer tube bore.
However, a median sized reciever bore and carrier keep the tail of the carrier from actually striking the inside of the buffer tube bore.

ar15barrels
09-23-2009, 8:30 PM
My setup with 168gr SMKs can punch oblong holes all day long at the range well within the sub .5moa range. I have managed to get a couple .3 holes but have averaged well within .4-.5range. Now I'm not the best shooter out there and I have seen the rifle do better when my father has shot it. So yeah I can say its as good as the KAC M110.

Bring that gun down to our shoot this saturday.
Dirtracer will be there with his and you guys can swap rifles to see if it's the shooter or the rifle causing his accuracy problems...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=221346

Addax
09-23-2009, 9:01 PM
It probably has to do with tolerance stacking.
Take a loose receiver bore and combine it with a small carrier and you have a formula for the tilt to show up on the buffer tube bore.
However, a median sized reciever bore and carrier keep the tail of the carrier from actually striking the inside of the buffer tube bore.

Yup, that is a good point.

DirtRacer151
09-23-2009, 9:04 PM
Bring that gun down to our shoot this saturday.
Dirtracer will be there with his and you guys can swap rifles to see if it's the shooter or the rifle causing his accuracy problems...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=221346

I know its part shooter... I optimistically ran some of the Tubbs lapping bullets through it last weekend and only had time to fire 15 normal rounds after i was done with the cycle. (range was closing) The groups were much better but i tricked myself by loading a few dummies and having a friend load them randomly in the mag. I caught myself reacting to the recoil anticipation. :o

We shall see on Saturday

Here is 2 of the 3 5 shot groups i did after using the Tubbs bullets
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo36/dirtracer151/CIMG0352.jpg

Rommel
09-24-2009, 11:00 AM
I just spoke with POF, they want me to send the entire rifle back for inspection.

Anybody know the legalities of shipping this back to them myself? According to them its perfectly legal? I have never done it before so I am a little weary.

CHS
09-24-2009, 11:09 AM
I just spoke with POF, they want me to send the entire rifle back for inspection.

Anybody know the legalities of shipping this back to them myself? According to them its perfectly legal? I have never done it before so I am a little weary.

It's perfectly legal.

Addax
09-24-2009, 11:13 AM
I just spoke with POF, they want me to send the entire rifle back for inspection.

Anybody know the legalities of shipping this back to them myself? According to them its perfectly legal? I have never done it before so I am a little weary.

Just package it really well, and insure the hell out of it.

You are fine to ship a firearm back to the manufacturer for service work etc., and they can ship it directly back to you.

Rommel
09-24-2009, 11:15 AM
Good to know! Thanks for the heads up!