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View Full Version : Shipping Directly to C&R Licensee OK?


eltee
09-16-2009, 10:47 AM
I checked and searched and I think this is OK, but ... can a California FFL ship a rifle that is listed on the BATFE C&R list directly to a person out of state who holds a current / valid C&R license? I looked and it seems OK, but I wanted to be sure I didn't overlook some restriction.

kemasa
09-16-2009, 11:24 AM
I don't know of any reason why not. They are a FFL and the firearm meets the requirements. You can ship a C&R handgun to others outside of CA, unless there is a law against it, like in CA. Depending on where they live, there could be a law which prevents it, but that is impossible for you to know and they are required to know the laws in their area.

eltee
09-16-2009, 1:01 PM
Is there something like EZcheck for C&R licenses?

ke6guj
09-16-2009, 1:09 PM
nope.

you used to be able to EZ-check an 03, but some 03's complained about the privacy aspect of being able to find an 03 by randomly entering numbers into EZ-check. So, ATF removed 03s from EZ-check.

I've read that you can call ATF and they'll confirm an 03 over the phone.

tenpercentfirearms
09-17-2009, 6:33 AM
Yeah out of state you can. I am not sure about in state. I know 03s get DROSed out of the store, period. With COE they can skip the ten days.

kemasa
09-17-2009, 9:01 AM
In-state you can ship a C&R non-handgun if they have a C&R FFL and CA COE.

ke6guj
09-17-2009, 9:05 AM
In-state you can ship a C&R non-handgun if they have a C&R FFL and CA COE.really?

so if I found a C&R long gun at a dealer on the other side of the state, I could send them my C&R+COE and they could ship it directly to me? What about the DROS requirement?

kemasa
09-17-2009, 9:22 AM
As I recall, there is no DROS requirement for C&R firearms which are not handguns as long as you have the C&R FFL & CA DOJ COE. You should confirm this with the CA DOJ, which I have, but that assumes that you trust me :-).

This means you can have a C&R longgun shipped directly to you from anywhere. Some FFLs might not want to do that, especially CA FFLs, but they can also check with the CA DOJ to confirm this.

ke6guj
09-17-2009, 9:30 AM
As I recall, there is no DROS requirement for C&R firearms which are not handguns as long as you have the C&R FFL & CA DOJ COE. You should confirm this with the CA DOJ, which I have, but that assumes that you trust me :-).

12078(t)(1) The waiting period described in Sections 12071 or 12072 shall not apply to the sale, delivery, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor, by a dealer to a person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto who has a current certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12071. On the date that the delivery, sale, or transfer is made, the dealer delivering the firearm shall transmit to the Department of Justice an electronic or telephonic report of the transaction as is indicated in subdivision (b) or (c) of Section 12077. I was under the assumption that 12077(b)&(c) still required the DROS be performed, even if you had the C&R+COE.

I have wondered if someone, with a C&R FFL, that buys a C&R firearm from a CA dealer must fill out a 4473, since it would be an FFL>FFL transfer at that point, and the feds shouldn't require a 4473 for that type of transfer. but I've been told that CA law required the 4473 be filed out, even for a FFL>FFL transfer.

kemasa
09-17-2009, 9:59 AM
Well, I have not looked through all the penal code, but I did call the CA DOJ and was told the same as I remembered as being the case. It is a FFL to FFL transfer, but this only applies to non-handguns, which must be shipped to a 01 FFL, not a C&R FFL.

The C&R FFL can pickup firearms outside of the state, but must only report handguns.

12070. (a) No person shall sell, lease, or transfer firearms unless
he or she has been issued a license pursuant to Section 12071. Any
person violating this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.
(b) Subdivision (a) does not include any of the following:
(17) The delivery of an unloaded firearm that is a curio or relic,
as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal
Regulations, by a person licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter
44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States
Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto with a current
certificate of eligibility issued pursuant to Section 12071 to a
dealer.

12072. (a)
(9) (A) No person shall make an application to purchase more than
one pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed
upon the person within any 30-day period.
(B) Subparagraph (A) shall not apply to any of the following:
(ix) Any person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter
44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States
Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto and who has a
current certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the
Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12071.

Mssr. Eleganté
09-17-2009, 8:29 PM
I've read that you can call ATF and they'll confirm an 03 over the phone.

That's right. You just call the BATFE EZ Check phone number...1-877-560-2435...and give them the license number and the address on the license. They will either let you know right then, or call you right back to say if the license is valid or not.


____________________________________________


I was under the assumption that 12077(b)&(c) still required the DROS be performed, even if you had the C&R+COE.

You assumed correctly. California C&R FFL's with a COE still have to go into the California Licensed Dealer to complete the DROS and pick up the firearm. C&R FFL's who reside out of state don't have to DROS. Here is a list of the people exempted from DROS...


CPC 12073. (a) As required by the Department of Justice, every dealer shall keep a register or record of electronic or telephonic transfer in which shall be entered the information prescribed in Section 12077.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following transactions:
(1) The delivery, sale, or transfer of an unloaded firearm that is not a handgun by a dealer to another dealer upon proof of compliance with the requirements of paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072.
((2) The delivery, sale, or transfer of an unloaded firearm by a dealer to another dealer if that firearm is intended as merchandise in the receiving dealer's business upon proof of compliance with the requirements of paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072.
(3) The delivery, sale, or transfer of an unloaded firearm by a dealer to a person licensed as an importer or manufacturer pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and any regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(4) The delivery, sale, or transfer of an unloaded firearm by a dealer who sells, transfers, or delivers the firearm to a person who resides outside this state who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and any regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(5) The delivery, sale, or transfer of an unloaded firearm by a dealer to a wholesaler if that firearm is being returned to the wholesaler and is intended as merchandise in the wholesaler's business.
(6) The delivery, sale, or transfer of an unloaded firearm that is not a handgun by a dealer to himself or herself.
(7) The loan of an unloaded firearm by a dealer who also operates a target facility which holds a business or regulatory license on the premises of the building designated in the license or whose building designated in the license is on the premises of any club or organization organized for the purpose of practicing shooting at targets upon established ranges, whether public or private, to a person at that target facility or club or organization, if the firearm is kept at all times within the premises of the target range or on the premises of the club or organization.
(8) The delivery of an unloaded firearm by a dealer to a gunsmith for service or repair.
(9) The return of an unloaded firearm to the owner of that firearm by a dealer, if the owner initially delivered the firearm to the dealer for service or repair.
(10) The loan of an unloaded firearm by a dealer to a person who possesses a valid entertainment firearms permit issued pursuant to Section 12081, for use solely as a prop in a motion picture, television, video, theatrical, or other entertainment production or event.
(11) The loan of an unloaded firearm by a dealer to a consultant-evaluator, if the loan does not exceed 45 days from the date of delivery of the firearm by the dealer to the consultant-evaluator.
(c) A violation of this section is a misdemeanor.

__________________________________________

I have wondered if someone, with a C&R FFL, that buys a C&R firearm from a CA dealer must fill out a 4473, since it would be an FFL>FFL transfer at that point, and the feds shouldn't require a 4473 for that type of transfer. but I've been told that CA law required the 4473 be filed out, even for a FFL>FFL transfer.

A Form 4473 is not required when a California Licensed Dealer disposes of a C&R firearm to a C&R FFL from any State. Like you said, the 4473 is only a Federal requirement when disposing to non-FFL's.

tenpercentfirearms
09-17-2009, 8:41 PM
Well, I have not looked through all the penal code, but I did call the CA DOJ and was told the same as I remembered as being the case. It is a FFL to FFL transfer, but this only applies to non-handguns, which must be shipped to a 01 FFL, not a C&R FFL.

The C&R FFL can pickup firearms outside of the state, but must only report handguns.

I was told the opposite. I was told all guns I sell must be DROSed with the exception of law enforcement with that one specific letter. However, that letter was so complicated that they basically said don't even bother.

What you say makes sense that if it is a dealer to dealer transfer, we don't need to do a DROS. However, does a C&R count? We know for a fact their ten days can be waived, but can DROS? If DROS can't be waived, then can you ship them?

I hate this state and all of their rules.

Everyone call the DOJ tomorrow and lets see between the three or four of us how many answers we get.

Mssr. Eleganté
09-17-2009, 8:52 PM
What you say makes sense that if it is a dealer to dealer transfer, we don't need to do a DROS. However, does a C&R count? We know for a fact their ten days can be waived, but can DROS? If DROS can't be waived, then can you ship them?.

No, a C&R FFL does not count, unless the C&R FFL resides outside of California.

tenpercentfirearms
09-17-2009, 8:59 PM
No, a C&R FFL does not count, unless the C&R FFL resides outside of California.

That line you put above made it look like you had a long sig line. I just realized you answered to this. So I take it a C&R is "Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18".

Mssr. Eleganté
09-17-2009, 9:13 PM
That line you put above made it look like you had a long sig line. I just realized you answered to this. So I take it a C&R is "Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18".

Sorry about the line. :o It was hard to read without the line too, since the two quotes were right next to each other. "Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18" just means any type of FFL.

kemasa
09-17-2009, 9:18 PM
When I asked the CA DOJ, they said that a C&R longgun does not need to be DROS'd if the person has a C&R FFL and CA DOJ COE. As was said, it could be shipped to them from outside the state, so the same should be true for in-state.

ke6guj
09-17-2009, 9:26 PM
When I asked the CA DOJ, they said that a C&R longgun does not need to be DROS'd if the person has a C&R FFL and CA DOJ COE. As was said, it could be shipped to them from outside the state, so the same should be true for in-state.If it was the same in-state vs. out of state., I wouldn't even need a COE to be able to cash-and-carry C&R firearms from a dealer. Sounds like some bad info from CADOJ.

tenpercentfirearms
09-17-2009, 9:27 PM
When I asked the CA DOJ, they said that a C&R longgun does not need to be DROS'd if the person has a C&R FFL and CA DOJ COE. As was said, it could be shipped to them from outside the state, so the same should be true for in-state.

LOL. Are you seriously relying on logic to try and justify penal code?

I was told the opposite when I got my FFL. We need to call in tomorrow and see what we can find out.

Also, I bet(1) The delivery, sale, or transfer of an unloaded firearm that is not a handgun by a dealer to another dealer upon proof of compliance with the requirements of paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072.
((2) The delivery, sale, or transfer of an unloaded firearm by a dealer to another dealer if that firearm is intended as merchandise in the receiving dealer's business upon proof of compliance with the requirements of paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072. those sections apply to people on the CFD. I have a crying baby to attend, someone look it up for us please.

Mssr. Eleganté
09-17-2009, 9:32 PM
When I asked the CA DOJ, they said that a C&R longgun does not need to be DROS'd if the person has a C&R FFL and CA DOJ COE. As was said, it could be shipped to them from outside the state, so the same should be true for in-state.

The Penal Code does not back up what CalDOJ told you. CPC 12073(a) states that dealers need to DROS firearms.

CPC 12073. (a) As required by the Department of Justice, every dealer shall keep a register or record of electronic or telephonic transfer in which shall be entered the information prescribed in Section 12077.

Although CPC 12073(b) does list all of the exemptions to DROS, a C&R FFL who resides in California is not one of the listed exemptions. Furthermore, if you look at CPC 12077, the section of the law that actually describes how to do the DROS, you'll see that it requires dealers to include the proper waiting period exemption code on the DROS when they DROS a C&R long gun to a C&R FFL who also has a COE...

12077(c)(1) For firearms other than handguns, information contained in the register or record of electronic transfer shall be the date and time of sale, peace officer exemption status pursuant to subdivision (a) of Section 12078 and the agency name, auction or event waiting period exemption pursuant to subdivision (g) of Section 12078, California Firearms Dealer number issued pursuant to Section 12071, dangerous weapons permit holder waiting period exemption pursuant to subdivision (r) of Section 12078, curio and relic waiting period exemption pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (t) of Section 12078...

Why would you need to include the C&R waiting period exemption code on a DROS if the DROS was never even required in the first place?

kemasa
09-17-2009, 9:32 PM
If someone from outside the state can ship a C&R longgun to a C&R FFL with a COE, then that same exemption would apply to in-state shipments. You can't have it both ways.


If it was the same in-state vs. out of state., I wouldn't even need a COE to be able to cash-and-carry C&R firearms from a dealer. Sounds like some bad info from CADOJ.


Sigh ... why do you jump to that? Why would you think that I am saying that EVERYTHING is the same in-state and out of state? Please sit to the subject. If it was the same everywhere, there would be no DROS, correct?

I don't think it is bad information. Long guns are not tracked in regards to serial numbers, so what is the point of the DROS if the person has a COE?

Mssr. Eleganté
09-17-2009, 9:36 PM
If someone from outside the state can ship a C&R longgun to a C&R FFL with a COE, then that same exemption would apply to in-state shipments. You can't have it both ways.

First of all, someone outside of California can ship a 50+ year old C&R long gun to a California C&R FFL even if the C&R FFL does not have a COE. Second of all, the out of state party can only do this because they are not a "california licensed dealer". California law only requires "california licensed dealers" to DROS firearms.

kemasa
09-17-2009, 9:38 PM
The penal code is a bit of a mess, so you need to follow all the requirements and exemptions.

Mssr. Eleganté
09-17-2009, 9:41 PM
The penal code is a bit of a mess, so you need to follow all the requirements and exemptions.

You can say that again. :)

ke6guj
09-17-2009, 9:45 PM
If someone from outside the state can ship a C&R longgun to a C&R FFL with a COE, then that same exemption would apply to in-state shipments. You can't have it both ways.but I don't need a COE to accept a C&R long gun (over 50-years old) from out of state, just a C&R. And a COE won't help getting a C&R handgun or <50-year old C&R long gun shipped to me.




Sigh ... why do you jump to that? Why would you think that I am saying that EVERYTHING is the same in-state and out of state? Please sit to the subject. If it was the same everywhere, there would be no DROS, correct?sure sounded like that is what you meant, my bad.

I don't think it is bad information. Long guns are not tracked in regards to serial numbers, so what is the point of the DROS if the person has a COE?the point is, the PC says that even with C&R+COE, that "On the date that the delivery, sale, or transfer is made, the dealer delivering the firearm shall transmit to the Department of Justice an electronic or telephonic report of the transaction as is indicated in subdivision (b) or (c) of Section 12077" which is a DROS.

Doesn't matter if it makes sense, that is what the PC requires.

TripleT
09-20-2009, 1:39 PM
Once you guys get all this crap figured out, I'd love to see a flow chart... ;-)

ke6guj
09-20-2009, 2:09 PM
someone else can make that flowchart. I'm burned out on making flowcharts right now :D

TripleT
09-20-2009, 2:25 PM
someone else can make that flowchart. I'm burned out on making flowcharts right now :D

Jack,

I'm not sure we'd have enough paper, ink or correction fluid to make that chart... :rolleyes: