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maxicon
02-09-2005, 11:25 AM
Here's another AR15.com thread. Someone at SHOT had Bushie lowers with welded magwells for $399, apparently from Evans Gunsmithing. Not a very reasonable price, but quality should be better than Fab 10.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=11&t=193211

with some interesting links:

Fixed 10 round mag kit, which would make it similar to the CaliFAL conversion.
https://www.vbd.com/noc/shop/products_detail.asp?CategoryID=49&ProductID=322
The problem here is the "ar15 series" definition (wasn't that struck down by some court?).

If Vulcan actually has permission to pin magazines into place for a legal version, this will really open up our options, since there are some very fine lowers out there for a lot less than Fab 10 and higher quality than Fab 10 and Vulcan/Hesse.

max

maxicon
02-09-2005, 11:25 AM
Here's another AR15.com thread. Someone at SHOT had Bushie lowers with welded magwells for $399, apparently from Evans Gunsmithing. Not a very reasonable price, but quality should be better than Fab 10.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=11&t=193211

with some interesting links:

Fixed 10 round mag kit, which would make it similar to the CaliFAL conversion.
https://www.vbd.com/noc/shop/products_detail.asp?CategoryID=49&ProductID=322
The problem here is the "ar15 series" definition (wasn't that struck down by some court?).

If Vulcan actually has permission to pin magazines into place for a legal version, this will really open up our options, since there are some very fine lowers out there for a lot less than Fab 10 and higher quality than Fab 10 and Vulcan/Hesse.

max

bwiese
02-09-2005, 2:37 PM
Hi Maxicon...

Lots of work for little or no improvement.

AR15 lowers don't have to take much stress or wear (except in-line in buffer tube (receiver extension) area and wear/tear at front pivot)
and they are relatively noncritical in many ways. Even a sloppy/loose fit of lower to upper really doesn't affect accuracy (unless it moves while pulling trigger).

So FAB10 will serve fine - whether or not it's ugly, poor finish, etc.

I do note Evan's Gunsmithing (EGSW) knows Calif AW law. They wouldn't risk their biz doing something borderline.

_THEIR_ modification of Bushy lowers must've been specifically DOJ approved. (Also since EGSW can legally bring in assualt weapons since they have a CA assault weapons permit, they've solved the 'chicken & egg' problem - how to legally get AR lowers into CA to modify?)

I'd be - and I'd bet any other FFL would be - leery of bringing in AR lowers that have been welded out of state.

Regular AR15-style lower receivers are banned by series via Aug 2000 Kasler decision
which brought all brands of ARs back into the "Colt AR15 class" of Roberti-Roos law.

There may be some handwaving due to later Harrot v. Kings County decision about AWs having to be specifically named before being banned, etc. and rules for promulgation - but this is unsettled law IMHO and you should essentially think that ALL AR lowers taking a detachable mag are banned in CA until further notice.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

maxicon
02-09-2005, 9:58 PM
I would assume that any closed-well AR is legal at this point, with just the formality of getting a DOJ letter, as Evans claims to have for their Bushies. It wouldn't be logical to allow one brand and not another (not that the DOJ has to be logical).

As for the pinned mag, this is strictly a rumor at this point; I can't see anything on Vulcan's web site. If they do have approval, that would open up a whole new category of DOJ approved AR15 variants, of better repute than Vulcan.

We'll have to see what develops on that one.

max

Mesa Tactical
02-10-2005, 6:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bwiese:
Regular AR15-style lower receivers are banned by series via Aug 2000 _Kasler_ decision
which brought all brands of ARs back into the "Colt AR15 class" of Roberti-Roos law. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I posted in the Arfcom thread.

I spoke to a California FFL at the SHOT Show who saw the Vulcan California-legal lowers. He said it was a normal lower with a magazine pinned in. This is a big improvement on the Fab-10, which does not use a proper magazine and consequently does not feed reliably. This FFL friend of mine should know what he is talking about, since he himself does a brisk business in Fab-10s and California-legal FN FALs.

No matter what the law says, it is all subject to interpretation by the DoJ. I'm sure we can come up with one or two examples of where the DoJ invented some regulation or other with no legislative back-up. In this case it looks like Rossi, who is not really our enemy, is making an interpretation based on a very strict understanding of what an "AR-15 type" rifle is.

If Vulcan can do it, anyone can (except maybe Colt, not that they would try anyway).

Lon Moer
02-10-2005, 7:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bwiese:
There may be some handwaving due to later _Harrot v. Kings County_ decision about AWs having to be specifically named before being banned, etc. and rules for promulgation - but this is unsettled law IMHO and you should essentially think that ALL AR lowers taking a detachable mag are banned in CA until further notice.

Bill Wiese
San Jose <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, and I've never had any issue's with any of my FAB's. Dalphon was developing a Kaliban lower once, Bushmaster, too, developed some prototypes, and both companies dropped the projects as unprofitable. With the EGSW unit being more involved, and more expensive, I see it as a short lived experiment.

endings1@aol.com
02-10-2005, 10:01 AM
When is someone going to make a CA legal lower(pinned or permament-whatevers kosher with DOJ) with a 30/20 round dummy magazine protruding out of the mag well??????

They'd sell like hotcakes simply on the "Badass" looks factor.

http://www.teamfcf.com/predator/myweb16/M45.jpg

No matter how much tactical stuff you put on it, it alway's looks like it's missing something.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4d611b3127cce9cd4d9094f5400000016108CZNGbRs1aC

Mike Searson
02-10-2005, 10:21 AM
If all you care about is looks there's always airsoft.

endings1@aol.com
02-10-2005, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Searson:
If all you care about is looks there's always airsoft. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They can take our freedom away, but whatever you do in life, do it with style. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

jared@barringtons.com
02-11-2005, 1:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> When is someone going to make a CA legal lower(pinned or permament-whatevers kosher with DOJ) with a 30/20 round dummy magazine protruding out of the mag well??????

They'd sell like hotcakes simply on the "Badass" looks factor. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My M-220 design has that but it's removable. The receiver however is not compatable with Ar-15 innerds and is chambered for .22 Magnum and .17HMR, which is why it's a California legal detachable-mag model.
I will hopefully have a working model tested and approved by the AGs office by July, but no prommises.
I have no intentions of marketing this gun. If you guys want to see it on the market, then it'll be up to you to find a manufacturer willing to make it.

recurry
02-11-2005, 11:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> This is a big improvement on the Fab-10, which does not use a proper magazine and consequently does not feed reliably. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't know what you mean by this. What does "proper" mean? My FAB10 has a standard 10 round magazine without the bottom plate. I called Shoeless and was told they buy standard AR15/M16 10 round magazines for this purpose.

With several thousand rounds through mine I've never had a feedproblem.

I did find that I had difficulty getting more than 9 rounds into the magazine at first but after about 10 reloads it now takes 10 just fine.

With regards to quality, the FAB10 I have has fine quality. I bought it stripped and put a RRA firecontrol group in it. Everything fit perfectly except the trigger guard pin was a bit tight. The mating to my three Colt LE uppers is perfect and VERY precision.

I'm quite happy with mine - just wish I could get more other two quicker. Of course, I'd rather have a removeable magazine...

Ron

art_e@hotmail.com
02-12-2005, 9:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stanze:
When is someone going to make a CA legal lower(pinned or permament-whatevers kosher with DOJ) with a 30/20 round dummy magazine protruding out of the mag well??????

They'd sell like hotcakes simply on the "Badass" looks factor.

http://www.teamfcf.com/predator/myweb16/M45.jpg

No matter how much tactical stuff you put on it, it alway's looks like it's missing something.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4d611b3127cce9cd4d9094f5400000016108CZNGbRs1aC <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Heres a link to someone who took the plunge and attached a dummy 30 rounder...

"proper ar" (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65714&highlight=machinists+project)