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View Full Version : AB 962 - Paintballs, BBs and Pellets


Merle
09-13-2009, 12:36 PM
Reading various postings on AB 962 and specifically this section


(2) For purposes of this subdivision, "ammunition" shall include,
but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with a deadly consequence. "Ammunition" does not include
blanks.


Doesn't AB 962 apply to (a) Paintballs (b) BB's and (c) Pellets?

IIRC, shooting paintballs in public with an intent to do harm ups the charge to an assault with a deadly weapon.

BB's and Pellets are definately capable of deadly consequences.

I do not remember ever being able to buy <50 of (a) (b) or (c) above. Isn't this a de jure ban on these items?

cornflake
09-13-2009, 12:41 PM
For purposes of this subdivision, "ammunition" shall include,
but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with a deadly consequence. "Ammunition" does not include
blanks

This just goes to show how poorly this bill is written. As it reads, it would require finger print for rock salt, nail, etc. Basically anything that can be loaded into a 12g shotgun shell. :eek:

Scarecrow Repair
09-13-2009, 12:57 PM
Doesn't AB 962 apply to (a) Paintballs (b) BB's and (c) Pellets?

"Firearm" usually requires "fire", as in gunpowder. I know some jurisdictions have regs against pellet guns, but I do not think they are called firearms.

pullnshoot25
09-13-2009, 1:07 PM
"Firearm" usually requires "fire", as in gunpowder. I know some jurisdictions have regs against pellet guns, but I do not think they are called firearms.

Technically, where I am at, lighting off a .50 BMG and a pellet gun is the same.

383green
09-13-2009, 1:15 PM
This just goes to show how poorly this bill is written. As it reads, it would require finger print for rock salt, nail, etc. Basically anything that can be loaded into a 12g shotgun shell. :eek:

Then if this passes, I propose an equal protection lawsuit to ensure vigorous enforcement of the law against sales of rock salt (whether from the supermarket or hardware store), any nail that may be fired from a powder-powered nail gun, marbles, loose ball bearings, etc. :mad:

Merle
09-13-2009, 1:33 PM
"Firearm" usually requires "fire", as in gunpowder. I know some jurisdictions have regs against pellet guns, but I do not think they are called firearms.

Thanks. With your clarification I'm pretty comfortable excluding paintballers as most are .43 cal shooters.

But as others have posted, in a shotgun, there's little difference between BB's and the shot - both are deadly.

383green
09-13-2009, 1:36 PM
Egads. I forgot about these being sold at places like Home Depot.

http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware-Power-Tools/Ramset/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xhrZarfeZ193/R-100606180/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Your comment just reminded me of the cordless nailers which use a canister of flammable propellant. Thus, coils and sticks of nails would need to be restricted, too. I wonder what the housing lobby would think about requiring ID and a face-to-face transaction for purchases of nails?

Invisible_Dave
09-13-2009, 1:45 PM
I think the Governor needs to be made aware of these issues in the letters I'm sure are being drafted as we speak.

Merle
09-13-2009, 1:52 PM
Dimes too. Don't they fit into a full choke 12 gauge shotgun without a problem?

383green
09-13-2009, 2:09 PM
Dimes too. Don't they fit into a full choke 12 gauge shotgun without a problem?

Hmm, I don't know about full choke, but I just dropped one down the barrel of my cylinder-choke Mossy. I don't have an empty hull handy, but an eyeball comparison to the end of a loaded round suggests that a stack of dimes would fit into a shell.

So, yes, I'd say that dimes would be affected by this bill. Particularly if somebody with the appropriate licenses happened to market dime-loads. Perhaps under the name "Liberty Load", since it says "Liberty" on every projectile. Heck, I have half a mind to drop by Turners right now and buy a shotgun reloading press, and then blog about my new loads. :43:

Might as well make some washer-loads, too. No more online ordering of anything containing washers under about 0.7" outside diameter.

Fight dirty, and make it hurt! :chris:

383green
09-13-2009, 2:14 PM
Ok, no dimes through a full choke, but they'll fit through modified or cylinder chokes:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot35.htm

Oh, yeah.

axhoaxho
09-13-2009, 2:21 PM
I guess potato guns too? Geez I better stock up some big-caliber potatos...

383green
09-13-2009, 2:26 PM
I guess potato guns too? Geez I better stock up some big-caliber potatos...

And golf balls. They make blank-powered golf ball launchers, thus the golf balls must be classified as projectiles.

MonsterMan
09-13-2009, 2:28 PM
Isn't this bill just for handgun ammo?

Shotgun Man
09-13-2009, 2:34 PM
Reading various postings on AB 962 and specifically this section



Doesn't AB 962 apply to (a) Paintballs (b) BB's and (c) Pellets?

IIRC, shooting paintballs in public with an intent to do harm ups the charge to an assault with a deadly weapon.

BB's and Pellets are definately capable of deadly consequences.

I do not remember ever being able to buy <50 of (a) (b) or (c) above. Isn't this a de jure ban on these items?

This is the current version of 12316(b):

(b)

(1) No person prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm under Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code shall own, possess, or have under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded ammunition.

(2) For purposes of this subdivision, "ammunition" shall include, but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a firearm with a deadly consequence.

(3) A violation of this subdivision is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year or in the state prison, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment.


This is the fuller version of what you quoted:



12316 [...]
(b) (1) No person prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm
under Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103
of the Welfare and Institutions Code shall own, possess, or have
under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded
ammunition.
(2) For purposes of this subdivision, "ammunition" shall include,
but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with a deadly consequence. "Ammunition" does not include
blanks.
(3) A violation of this subdivision is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year or in the state prison, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment.


As you can see, the two versions are the same with the exception of 12316(b)(2) saying that ammunition does not include blanks. AB 962 affects 12316(b) in no way, except it explicitly confers on felons the right to possess blanks.

Maybe we can the get gov to veto this POS by arguing that it reduces the criminal liability of armed felons using blanks to perpetrate their crimes. Why should felons have blanks except for some criminal purpose? Do you want a felon shooting up a bank with blanks while your grandmother is depositing her SS check? That's what this bill promotes.

It's time to throw the felons under the bus, folks.

383green
09-13-2009, 3:11 PM
Isn't this bill just for handgun ammo?

The description of the bill makes it appear to just be about handgun ammunition, but reading the amended penal code text reveals that it's not just handgun ammunition which is affected. For example, while the amended PC 12316.(a)(1)(B) states that its use of "ammunition" refers to handgun ammunition as defined by PC 12323, section PC 12316.(b) provides its own definition of "ammunition" which doesn't appear to be limited to handgun ammunition:



(b) (1) No person prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm
under Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103
of the Welfare and Institutions Code shall own, possess, or have
under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded
ammunition.

(2) For purposes of this subdivision, "ammunition" shall include,
but not be limited to, any bullet, cartridge, magazine, clip, speed
loader, autoloader, or projectile capable of being fired from a
firearm with a deadly consequence. "Ammunition" does not include
blanks.

(3) A violation of paragraph (1) of this subdivision is punishable
by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one year or in the
state prison, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000),
or by both the fine and imprisonment.

(4) A person who is not prohibited by paragraph (1) from owning,
possessing, or having under his or her custody or control, any
ammunition or reloaded ammunition, but who is enjoined from engaging
in activity pursuant to an injunction issued pursuant to Section 3479
of the Civil Code against that person as a member of a criminal
street gang, as defined in Section 186.22, may not own, possess, or
have under his or her custody or control, any ammunition or reloaded
ammunition.

(5) A violation of paragraph (4) of this subdivision is a
misdemeanor.

Thus, while other sections may only apply to sales of handgun ammunition by handgun ammunition dealers (as defined in the bill text), the section above appears to restrict mere possession of any projectile capable of being fired from a firearm by restricted persons. And as we've been semi-jokingly discussing, this would seem to me to include dimes, rock salt, golf balls and coil/stick nails, since all of them can be (and sometimes actually are) propelled with deadly force by firearms. It may be arguable that framing nailers which use combustible fuel cannot be considered to be firearms, but dimes are certainly capable of being fired from a shotgun.

So, I would think that an unintended consequence of this bill would be that any person prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm would thus be prohibited from possessing items such as dimes... yet would gain the permission to possess blanks!

Full text is here:

http://leginfo.ca.gov/pub/09-10/bill/asm/ab_0951-1000/ab_962_bill_20090904_amended_sen_v96.html

Brasspolisher
09-13-2009, 3:14 PM
Sent via http://gov.ca.gov/interact:


Please VETO AB962

Governor Schwarzenegger:

The bill AB962 that recently passed the legislature contains provisions that restrict lawful interstate commerce, create a significant unfunded mandate on local governments and law enforcement agencies, and seek to place additional (and ineffective) bureaucratic restrictions on a beleaguered (some might say endangered) segment of California businesses.

This legislation, cynically wrapped as 'crime prevention,' seeks to 'annoy to death' California industry and individuals who support Federally guaranteed Constitutional Rights, namely the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution. If allowed to become law it will reduce or or transfer to neighboring states economic activity sorely needed in and by the state of California. It will also more than likely burden the courts and the state through legal challenges due to its overly broad and imprecise composition. (As written, the bill could restrict sales of commonly-used construction materials, for example.) It will not reduce criminals' ability to unlawfully possess items from which they are already restricted through existing laws, and it will further needlessly burden agencies - already stretched to their limits - that are currently investigating and deterring crime through much more effective means.

Thank you for your attention, and I sincerely hope you choose wisely and veto this bill.

-------------------------


Please cut and paste with abandon.

steelrain82
09-13-2009, 3:30 PM
no because paintballs and bb use co2 or compressed air to be fired while a firearm requires an explosive to push out the projectile.

edit: while they both can be deadly when used by people who don't know about chrongraphing their marker and keeping a paintball gun at no higher than 300fps and at least wearing a proper face mask.

383green
09-13-2009, 3:31 PM
As you can see, the two versions are the same with the exception of 12316(b)(2) saying that ammunition does not include blanks. AB 962 affects 12316(b) in no way, except it explicitly confers on felons the right to possess blanks.

Ah, I just saw that. Looking at the current version of 12316.(b), it appears that felons and other restricted persons already are prohibited from possessing dimes. :rolleyes:

calixt0
09-13-2009, 3:58 PM
I wonder if the govenor needs to see a thread like this to know how little this is really going to do and to show him if taken by the stictest sense how much this bill can entail. dimes, washers, nuts, rock salt, pop corn, pinto beans, red beans, and more will all fit nicely in a 12 gauge shot gun or for that matter many of them in a 500 s&w revolver and crimped like bird shot, and should all be pulled and put behind a counter of a registered firearms ammunitions counter. I can even get magnets thats about the right size for a 357 mag load and i know it will hold together and will fire about like a wadcutter, so magnets too need to be put behind a counter and only sold by qualified people.

any of the above can be a projectile fired from a firearm and accordingly should be treated by the law...

this might could make a difference.

Scarecrow Repair
09-13-2009, 5:32 PM
Technically, where I am at, lighting off a .50 BMG and a pellet gun is the same.

Right, but that's shooting, not buying, and it's by city ordnance, not state. I have heard that state and federal laws require some kind of combustion to be a firearm. I personally want a nice portable rail-gun. I could open carry and conceal carry and walk into school offices or courtrooms! Ha ha. Silly idea :-)

steelrain82
09-13-2009, 6:01 PM
I'm sure you can make one paintball guns shoot a paintball on average anywhere between .679 to.696 caliber paintballs so put a 50 cal bullet just the actual round to be propelled by the air and have magnet along the barrelto speed up the round and it should work. well it would be a start if the round would actually propell since there is no chemical reaction to get the round up to speed. hell I'm sure that slug hitting you at 100 fps would still cause damage but it could be a beginning to small portable rail guns

383green
09-13-2009, 6:10 PM
I think the biggest problem with electromagnetic rail guns is that there's no battery (or any other electrical storage device) that comes close to competing with chemical propellants in terms of energy per unit mass or energy per unit volume.

You might be able to make a man-portable magnetic rail gun that would poke holes as well as a rifle, but you'd need to drag around a generator on a trailer to power it.

SJgunguy24
09-13-2009, 6:37 PM
Paintball guns can and have killed, when the Boston Red Sox won the world series in 2004.
Boston P.D. used pepper ball rounds to disperse a crowd and a girl was hit in the eye and was killed.
Pepperball rounds are deployed with standard paintball guns.

steelrain82
09-13-2009, 9:31 PM
I'm not saying that paintball guns haven't killed hell a tissue box with enough force will kill you it's happened in Iraq well it broke someones neck. but most people that don't actively play paintball just get one out of the box and go shooting. even pd may not be up to speed and everytime you switch out co2 canisters which is what they use you need to chronograph the marker co2 isn't a stable gas and depending on the temp outside or how the canisters are stored you can get velocity spike. so if I'm a cop I chrono the marker and through it in my truck 2 days later my 275 chrono'd marker can be over 300 or less than 275. and paintballs can cause eye loss or broken bones. or if hit in the temple yeah can be deadly but cops don't fire once or twice they tend to unload

SJgunguy24
09-13-2009, 9:45 PM
www.cnn.com/2004/US/10/22/fan.death/

She was killed.

But the point was that anything that can considered a "projectile or bullet" is to be regulated is nuts.
I have to ask, when was the last time any laws made sense or had sound reasoning behind it?

My tally
Insane laws with no base in reality. 17266538

Laws based on reasonable thinking and common sense. 12

I jest but thats gotta be close to the truth

steelrain82
09-13-2009, 10:07 PM
I think your about right on your tallies

RideIcon
09-14-2009, 12:42 AM
Doesn't AB 962 apply to (a) Paintballs (b) BB's and (c) Pellets?


no

felons cannot posses firearms, air guns and spring guns are NOT firearms and can be possesed by felons....



You might be able to make a man-portable magnetic rail gun that would poke holes as well as a rifle, but you'd need to drag around a generator on a trailer to power it.

just a HUGE array of capacitors capable of an instantaneous discharge...


problem is there isn't a material that stays a solid when that kind of force is applied to it, also a HUGE problem with the projectile being instantly welded to the rails instead of following the magnetic field.

Seesm
09-14-2009, 1:13 AM
I really hope 962 does not pass... such a stupid deal.

Darklyte27
09-14-2009, 11:49 AM
A paintball marker isnt a gun, a paintball isnt a bullet.

sd_shooter
09-14-2009, 12:21 PM
I really hope 962 does not pass... such a stupid deal.

While you're hoping, don't forget to write your daily snail mail letter to the governor asking him to veto this.

Address:
http://calnra.com/legs.shtml?year=2009&summary=ab962

Ifticar
09-14-2009, 1:01 PM
Reading various postings on AB 962 and specifically this section



Doesn't AB 962 apply to (a) Paintballs (b) BB's and (c) Pellets?

IIRC, shooting paintballs in public with an intent to do harm ups the charge to an assault with a deadly weapon.

BB's and Pellets are definately capable of deadly consequences.

I do not remember ever being able to buy <50 of (a) (b) or (c) above. Isn't this a de jure ban on these items?

Yes, but only if they are to be used as HANDGUN ammo.

anhero
09-14-2009, 1:45 PM
If it were my choice I would increase penalties for crimes. I would not punish everyone because a small percentage of people suck.

I agree with you, but with the current mental state of our "representatives," this would just make too much sense. Much like actually enforcing laws that would catch criminals. I.E. probation checks and criminal searches.

Accountability in all gov. agency is what i'm hoping for. It's a dream, but you just never know

I don't hear too much gang activity in my city for years now because task forces were employed and actually did their job, or the media has not been advertising it. Either way, some things have changed for the better.

5ohguy
09-14-2009, 1:49 PM
"Firearm" usually requires "fire", as in gunpowder. I know some jurisdictions have regs against pellet guns, but I do not think they are called firearms.

When I used to go paint balling at Camp Pendleton, the guards at the gate would ask me where my firearms were located. He said anything capable of firing a projectile faster than 300 fps was considered a firearm by MPs.

motorhead
09-14-2009, 11:57 PM
if you removed the word "FIREARM" it would apply. now potatos for my spud gun might be covered as some seem to think it meets the definition of a firearm.
airguns are by definition, NOT firearms.