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SingleAction
09-12-2009, 11:07 PM
http://www.frontsight.com/courses/concealed-weapons-permit-course.asp


Hi Guys!


I don't know if I'm posting this in the right place or not, (forgive me if I am).

I'm curious to know if anyone has went to Front Sight and took their Course (One Day 30 State Concealed Weapons Permit)?

I'm interested in getting one. However, I am just a CA resident.

Does anyone here also have this 30 state permit???

I would appreciate any comments about the course, or anyone having this permit.

Thanks a lot.

Invisible_Dave
09-13-2009, 9:37 AM
You can get the Utah permit without leaving the state for $100 + $65 fee to Utah. The FL permit is often do concurrently. Nevada is pretty easy but you do have to go to Nevada to shoot/qualify.
I went to Jim here in NorCal (http://www.alphasafetytraining.net/ccw.html)

dustoff31
09-13-2009, 9:48 AM
http://www.frontsight.com/courses/concealed-weapons-permit-course.asp


Hi Guys!


I don't know if I'm posting this in the right place or not, (forgive me if I am).

I'm curious to know if anyone has went to Front Sight and took their Course (One Day 30 State Concealed Weapons Permit)?

I'm interested in getting one. However, I am just a CA resident.

Does anyone here also have this 30 state permit???

I would appreciate any comments about the course, or anyone having this permit.

Thanks a lot.

The "30 state permit" does not exist as such. That's a marketing gimmick.

You will get one or more individual non-resident permits, probably UT and/or FL, which through reciprocity will allow you carry in 30 (or more) states.

And as another member pointed out, you can do that without leaving CA and at lower cost.

SingleAction
09-13-2009, 10:12 AM
Wow,

Thanks guys. I had no idea.


I live in LA. So its not that far of a drive up north to sacramento (or antelope).


I plan on doing this first to get the Utah license.


After that I'll probably go to Nevada to get one of theirs.

1. Do you guys know the process?
After I complete the "Utah" course (up north), do I have to file everything for myself, or will they send all my information for me (and I will just receive a response in the mail?) (How will the criminal records check be done? )


2. Also, can you guys also recommend a place in Nevada to get this done as well?

Thanks a million.

SingleAction
09-13-2009, 10:12 AM
Oh one last thing...

How long do these permits last?

dustoff31
09-13-2009, 10:34 AM
The instructor/school will square you away with completing the forms and such needed to submit your application.

As for Nevada, I'd recommend contacting the Sheriff of the county you intend to apply in. Clark Co, for LV area, Washoe Co. for Reno. They can give you a list of approved instructors/schools.

Generally, CCWs run for 3-5 years depending on the state. I don't know exactly how long UT and NV run off the top of my head.


ETA: I understand the guy who does the UT course in Sacramento is very good, but I've seen classes offered in So. Cal. You might ask around in the CCW forum.

KylaGWolf
09-13-2009, 10:54 AM
Not sure about that course with Front Sight but I will find out Thursday just how good their four day self-defensive shooting class is. The Nevada one no longer falls under the Utah permit since the training requirements are different. I would think though that if you do the course at Front Sight you could use that for the training requirement for the Nevada permit. I have considered that since the class I am taking has a concealed section in it :D. I will see what happens though. You still have to have the fingerprinting done here though. Which you could probably do even before you go to the class.

1BigPea
09-13-2009, 12:45 PM
Oh one last thing...

How long do these permits last?

The Utah permit is good for 5 years and it's $10 to renew it.

I took the class here in OC. Keep an eye on the Competition, Action Shooting And Training Forum, there are classes often here in Southern Cal.

1BigPea
09-13-2009, 12:48 PM
You can get the Utah permit without leaving the state for $100 + $65 fee to Utah. The FL permit is often do concurrently. Nevada is pretty easy but you do have to go to Nevada to shoot/qualify.
I went to Jim here in NorCal (http://www.alphasafetytraining.net/ccw.html)

+1000 for http://www.alphasafetytraining.net/ccw.html

I went to the class Jim did here in OC. Jim is awesome, he holds a great class, I highly recommend him.

Invisible_Dave
09-13-2009, 12:51 PM
Nevada requires an 8 hour class conducted in Nevada with a shooting requirement. You qualify with each auto you wish to carry (make and model, not serial number specific. If you have 2 glock 23s you only need to shoot 1 but a glock 23 and glock 27 need to each be shot to carry both.) Revolvers are shoot 1 carry all. YOu then drop off the app at the county sheriff at their designated hours, pay your fee, and wait 60-90 days for permit to show up. If you get enrolled in a class they will help you with the rest of the process.

http://www.usacarry.com/
http://www.handgunlaw.us/

Have some great interactive maps about what permits are good where. Also outlines some laws you MUST know state by state if you are going to "permit hop."

SingleAction
09-13-2009, 1:24 PM
+1000 for http://www.alphasafetytraining.net/ccw.html

I went to the class Jim did here in OC. Jim is awesome, he holds a great class, I highly recommend him.



Hi,

Just to clarify (I visited his website)...
We don't have to bring our guns to this class (the Utah Course?)?

Also, will the Utah Course, work for any gun that I have?
(As opposed to the Nevada process which only works with the gun that I bring to the actual shooting part?)?

SingleAction
09-13-2009, 1:58 PM
Hi guys,

I unfortunately forgot to mention one thing:

I'm currently only a Green Card Holder (I'm a Permanent Resident of the US). I don't have a US Citizenship - will this disqualify me from the Utah CCW course?

Thanks.

ke6guj
09-13-2009, 2:05 PM
look at the application form, http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/docs/ccwapp.pdf .

It specifically allows for resident aliens.

1BigPea
09-13-2009, 2:20 PM
Hi,

Just to clarify (I visited his website)...
We don't have to bring our guns to this class (the Utah Course?)?

Also, will the Utah Course, work for any gun that I have?
(As opposed to the Nevada process which only works with the gun that I bring to the actual shooting part?)?


No, no gun needed.

You can use any concealable firearm with the Utah permit.

SingleAction
09-13-2009, 2:28 PM
Thanks guys.

I appreciate all your help.

1JimMarch
09-13-2009, 3:12 PM
It should be pointed out in any Frontsight thread that Piazza and his group have committed real estate fraud, been sued by *numerous* vendors, been chased by a bunch of regulatory agencies over such issues as sanitation and fire safety and in general are NOT anybody you ever want to extend credit to. Most of his "membership plans" are exactly that: you pay now, you hope he survives long enough to come through with training.

I'm saying all this knowing for a dead certainty I could survive a slander suit. OK?

That's without even getting into the Scientology angle. I am critical of that "faith", for reasons I won't go into here except to say that it's a documented tenant of that faith that critics are subject to a "fair game" policy. Ain't no WAY I'd go to any shooting range run by one, under any circumstances. Esp. circumstances in which I'd be expected to empty my gun at some point.

SingleAction
09-13-2009, 5:37 PM
It should be pointed out in any Frontsight thread that Piazza and his group have committed real estate fraud, been sued by *numerous* vendors, been chased by a bunch of regulatory agencies over such issues as sanitation and fire safety and in general are NOT anybody you ever want to extend credit to. Most of his "membership plans" are exactly that: you pay now, you hope he survives long enough to come through with training.

I'm saying all this knowing for a dead certainty I could survive a slander suit. OK?

That's without even getting into the Scientology angle. I am critical of that "faith", for reasons I won't go into here except to say that it's a documented tenant of that faith that critics are subject to a "fair game" policy. Ain't no WAY I'd go to any shooting range run by one, under any circumstances. Esp. circumstances in which I'd be expected to empty my gun at some point.


Oh *****.

I just sent them a check over the mail for some 2 day defensive handgun course.

SDI
09-13-2009, 5:52 PM
My next Utah class is Oct 11th in Murrieta. Sounds like you have lots of questions, call me if you like. There are usually classes closer to you also.

A link to info on classes and contact info is in my signature line.

cmonk518
09-14-2009, 11:16 AM
Oh *****.

I just sent them a check over the mail for some 2 day defensive handgun course.

Don't worry, you are going to have a great time regardless. Anybody who's ever been out to Front Sight can attest, there is no Scientology angle when you are out there. Whether or not Piazza is a Scientologist, you cannot find one single Law Enforcement Officer or SWAT member who's ever done any training out there who would say he's kooky, weird, or going to put an anal probe in you. All those guys out there who spread this are extremely paranoid. He's got so many professionals working for him, ex-lawmen, ex-special forces guys, and such. Southern CA police depts hold HUGE charity marathon runs from here to NV all the time and I know when they do, alot of the big boys and SWAT all counter-train with each other on their facilties.

As I said, don't worry about everything you hear negative about Front Sight. Go for yourself and tell us all about it aftewards. Guaranteed you are going to learn a little something new there, have some fun, and meet some new people.

erik
09-14-2009, 11:16 AM
Oh *****.

I just sent them a check over the mail for some 2 day defensive handgun course.

And you'll have an awesome time with great instructors.


http://www.pahrumpvalleytimes.com/2009/Jul-10-Fri-2009/news/29884141.html

Untamed1972
09-14-2009, 1:07 PM
My take on Front Site is this:

1) The training is good. But since I've taken courses at other places also I can't say that it's phenominally superior to anywhere else like they want you to believe. Certainly not worth the $2000 retail price tag that's for sure. But it's obvious that's just a ploy to sucker you, I mean sell you on buying a membership. I personally think it's good to try different places out, learn from different people and different styles and so on and find what works best for you or combine different techniques into your own personal style that works best for you.

2) The sales pitch is telling you it's cheaper to buy a membership so you can keep coming back and train "for free" for the rest of your life. But unless you live in Parumph, NV don't forget that every time you go there for a 4 day class you're looking at at least $300-400 in lodging and food costs, not to mention a couple of days off of work. If you can find training in your local area for less the same $300-400 then you're breaking even and didn't drop $5000 on a membership. Not to mention.....how many times are you really going to want to take the same class? When the first couple of days of a handgun course is all basics aimed at someone with little to no experience you're not going to want to do that to many time. And once you've gotten the basics down it really is about individual practice at that point not repeated class time.

3) I think it would be a waste to go all the way to FS from LA just to take the UT CCW class. Find someone local and take it at home on a Sat and use the rest of the money to buy some ammo or a new gun. I took it in conjuction with a one-day Def. Handgun class with CATS in Chino hills and the cost of both classes was just under $200.

4) In the long run the only way FS can continue to operate is to sell new memberships. What happens to the place if membership sales start to drop and there is no new revenue coming in? Remember your "lifetime membership" is for the your lifetime, or the lifetime of the company.....whichever ends first.

1JimMarch
09-14-2009, 8:20 PM
The worse the economy gets, the worse trouble Piazza is in. He's running on the ragged edge of profitability now. In this real estate market, I don't see how he thinks he's going to get development money for a new project...Las Vegas area real estate is in horrible shape now, and he's basically on the outermost extreme possible suburb of Vegas.

The one upside he has available is that the "Obamamania" gun sales bonanza has created SOME new shooters and *maybe* a slightly bigger training market. Maybe. The upswing is however being chased by a downswing as people lose their jobs. We're seeing evidence of "economizing" in gun practice and training; here in AZ free desert shooting is on the rise, there's a rush on .22LR "training class guns" and uppers/barrels/conversions for Glocks, 1911s and the like, and a huge rush on reloading (esp. primers) and .22LR ammo.

To me, it all adds up to "a lot of people think we have tough times coming, they're practicing on the cheap in ways they can afford even if jobless".

That's my boat, finally landed a six month contract after living on peanuts for a long time, traded my .38 for a .22LR that matches my 357, so I can practice on the dirt cheap.

MP301
09-16-2009, 7:47 PM
Here we go again...Gee, I just did another class at FS over the weekend and there were 400+ students attending. There are usually that many each time I attend. Also, it looks like the next set of ranges and class room are starting construction as well.

Even the people that sued FS because the houses they were planning didnt get built fast enough made dam sure in the settlement that they could still attend FS until they are paid.

I live in Northern CA and have had my membership less then a year and have been 4 times with number 5 planned for december. I have gotten my moneies worth already but im nowhere close to being done.

As far as going to the same class again, how could you not go again? Might do it with a different gun...might do it off hand....might shoot for distiguished graduate....might do it with a friend or friends at future classes. Why would you not want to keep going to keep your skills up? With my membership, there are some 40 or 50 different classes I can attend...

Scientology? Well, not only is Piazza not usually there at FS, its never so much as been mentioned..or any religion or anything controversial...

Heres the deal...if you have not attended FS (and you can get a first time cert on ebay for around $150), try parking yoru negative comments until you have. That way, you dont scare fo some noob and prevent them from benefiting from This important training. I have had training at different places and this well exceeds what I have seen or even heard about...

I have yet to hear rom anyone who HAS gone for a class and had ANYTHING negative to say about TRAINING...and isnt that what its all about??

(BTW... This last class I went with Bobula...his first time...why dont you ask him what he thought and whether he will buy a membership?)

Untamed1972
09-17-2009, 7:48 AM
Where did I say anything bad about the place MP301? I said the training was good. I think it would be a great place to take a new shooter. Didn't say I wouldn't go back, but a membership just doesn't seem that cost effective to me personally. If it is for others, then great. I was just pointing out some things to think about. Like the fact that with travel and lodging costs everytime you go you're easily gonna spend $300-400++, depending on how far away you're traveling from, and that doesn't include time off of work.

Not to mention that depending on which membership you buy not ALL of the classes they offer are available to you. So what do I do when I want to take a class the membership doesn't cover or they don't offer? And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with repeating a class a couple of times, but I don't see myself wanting to take the same class several times a year for the rest of my life....I want to be able to move up the scale with my training at some point.

I was just stating my observations from my own personal experience attending there. The facilities were nice (was the first time I'd gotten the chance to take shots from 400yds), clean, the program was well organized and orderly for the amount of people they handle each weekend, and I don't remember any wasted time during a 4-day class. The lunchtime lectures on the use of force and color codes of mental awareness were excellent.

But all that said....I don't see a membership being cost effective for me personally. And judging by the number of emails I get from Piazza trying to sell "foreclosed memberships" and other discounted membership offers I'm just a little leary of how the extended future might play out for them.

The best part of my 4 days at FS.....NO POLICING UP BRASS AT THE END OF THE DAY!!!!! :)

MP301
09-17-2009, 10:31 AM
My comments were not directed at you because you have actually attended FS and were giving your honest opinion! Besides, you didnt say anything bad, you were just giving an honest and informed opinion. In your case, maybe a membership is not warranted. I disagree with you, but respect your opinion.

And you did clarify in your next post the positives up to and including 400 yard shots and no brass pick up! (I just hit the metal plate 3 out of 4 times with a 16" stock AR with iron sights and wolf ammo this last weekend!)

Why I was getting my knickers in a twist, was because of those that are trying to disuade people from attending FS for reasons NOT relating to the actual training....whether those reasons are accurate or not.

Anybody can say anything, but I have yet to hear anything negative about the....drum roll...TRAINING! The training is the reason for attending and the training is first rate.

As far as attending more then once.....Unless you graduate distiguished the first time you take the class and feel you have nothing more to learn, you can only get better each time you take the same class. Plus even the basic memberships include rifle and shotgun as well. Even if you get a more basic membership like the one I had before I upgraded, there are enough different classes to keep you busy without repeats for some time.

I have taken the 4 day defensive handgun, the 2 day skill builder, the 2 day advanced tactical (the most fun you can have with your pants on!) and just took the 4 day Practical Rifle. My next class is the 2 day Tactical scenarios with simunitions (will probably be even more entertaining then the advanced tactical).

I will be taking the 4 day tactical shotgun and start over with the handgun courses next year (I will also retake the 4 day practical Rifle cause I didnt do as well as I wanted on that one)

So you see, memberships for some of us are the only way to fly if you truly wish to learn and enjoy. And since im not loaded with money, I chose the $99a month method of paying for my membership. I will pay more in the end, but it bypasses the need for a lump sum of cash that I didnt have.

How much money...paid in advance, would it have cost me to take comparable classes (and i dont know of any available) elsewhere?

Lodging is cheap and food is cheap... The Saddlewest hotel caters to FS in a big way. $42-$52 dollars a night, Free buffet breakfast for each day you stay. $4 box lunch ready to go in the morning on your way out the door... $6.95 buffet dinner (and they change the type of food daily).

Ammo is what it is, whether you shoot it there or elsewhere.

And FS NEVER cancels a class...it has not cancelled one since its been in business. (I did my 4 day defensive handgun class in a freak snow storm .... and they didnt cancel the class- they said there was no extra charge for inclement weather training hahaha). And you only have to give 2 weeks notice to take a class and are guraunteed placement.

So, since going the first time is easy with a grey certificate, you all owe it to yourself to at least try it out! Then, when most of you decide that once was not enough, you can find others who want to go and split the travel costs and start going on a regular basis....or not. There is a reason the place keeps doubling in size!

Where did I say anything bad about the place MP301? I said the training was good. I think it would be a great place to take a new shooter. Didn't say I wouldn't go back, but a membership just doesn't seem that cost effective to me personally. If it is for others, then great. I was just pointing out some things to think about. Like the fact that with travel and lodging costs everytime you go you're easily gonna spend $300-400++, depending on how far away you're traveling from, and that doesn't include time off of work.

Not to mention that depending on which membership you buy not ALL of the classes they offer are available to you. So what do I do when I want to take a class the membership doesn't cover or they don't offer? And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with repeating a class a couple of times, but I don't see myself wanting to take the same class several times a year for the rest of my life....I want to be able to move up the scale with my training at some point.

I was just stating my observations from my own personal experience attending there. The facilities were nice (was the first time I'd gotten the chance to take shots from 400yds), clean, the program was well organized and orderly for the amount of people they handle each weekend, and I don't remember any wasted time during a 4-day class. The lunchtime lectures on the use of force and color codes of mental awareness were excellent.

But all that said....I don't see a membership being cost effective for me personally. And judging by the number of emails I get from Piazza trying to sell "foreclosed memberships" and other discounted membership offers I'm just a little leary of how the extended future might play out for them.

The best part of my 4 days at FS.....NO POLICING UP BRASS AT THE END OF THE DAY!!!!! :)

1JimMarch
09-17-2009, 12:00 PM
Even the people that sued FS because the houses they were planning didnt get built fast enough...

Uh huh. You keep right on believing that.

The truth is, and I've seen the documents with my own eyeballs, is that Iggy's real estate project wasn't going to happen without a sewage plan. He was told he had to come up with same. He didn't. The project was declared dead by the Nye County planning commission after he blew multiple deadlines...the lack of action on the pooper front being just one of many failures. And after that, after the whole thing was officially belly-up, he was STILL selling "houses to be".

His only sewage plan is that he's full of sh$%...

Python2
09-17-2009, 2:22 PM
......., traded my .38 for a .22LR that matches my 357, so I can practice on the dirt cheap.

OT, just cant help it....you did'nt trade your big bike with a vespa did you?:D

1JimMarch
09-17-2009, 3:10 PM
Oh HELL no :). No, still got the '97 Buell. Wouldn't trade that for anything.

Glock22Fan
09-17-2009, 3:10 PM
IMHO, the most bang for the buck is the Utah ticket, unless you visit Florida from time to time and not Washington State, then it becomes Florida.

Beyond those two, which cover nearly thirty states each (but almost exactly the same thirty states, so few people need both), individual states' CCW's only cover a handful of states that Utah and Florida miss and are usually much more expensive, harder to get and often don't last five years (I think Mass is only one year), so you'd probably only be interested if one of them was a state you visit often.

You can do the Utah course almost anywhere. Look up the Utah website and find their on-line list of instructors (http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/concealedinstructors.html)in California. Check the telephone numbers to find one locally. Mine cost something like $65 for one-on-one training here in the Antelope valley (north L.A. County).

For those visiting Nevada frequently, that's maybe a good idea, but you do have to do the course in Nevada. They will send you a list of instructors if you ask.

Maybe FS is legitimate (I've heard the rumors, but don't know the facts), and you might well consider them if you want to get the NV ticket, but I have to say that the FS marketing model is unique. They seem to do loss leaders, but I presume that they make that up elsewhere.

dansgold
09-17-2009, 4:57 PM
Pardon me for chiming in, as I am certainly not a regular poster (although I read almost daily just to keep up)

It concerns me greatly that people are willing to post defamatory statements based upon "what they heard", but no actual first hand knowledge.

The fact is that what you THINK you know is often just not true. Having been in business, and having had to defend against frivolous lawsuits, I know firsthand. So many things end up being "he said, she said", with the court making decisions which might just be 100% at odds with the facts on the ground.

For that matter, my CHURCH (mainstream protestant) had all sorts of lies and half-truths and out-n-out slander spread about it when we simply planned to build a facility that some locals didn't want in their community.

If you don't know something firsthand about Front Sight, simple decency demands that you qualify your statements with "I heard", "I read", etc.

I researched Front Sight extensively for over a year before even taking a single course. I found a lot of hearsay and rumor being repeated all over the place, and people jumping to silly conclusions over factoids which represent only a snapshot in time. I don't know how people can think so little of their own integrity to act this way.

I've paid less to FS so far than the retail price of the bonus weapons I've received with my membership, and I've been out for training twice. They never ran a credit check on me (I'd know), and they've extended weapons and training UP FRONT while I've only paid about $1500 out of pocket. I'm not even being charged interest. This is the kind of "handshake" agreement that speaks loudly of a business which believes in the value of the service they offer.

The website is silly if you ask me, and the marketing plan a bit cheezy. Nonetheless, the training is excellent. I don't imagine that the $2000 for a 4-day course is the lowest priced training out there, but I can attest that there are all sorts of technical trainings in various fields that cost about that much. I'm paying $100/month for a membership which includes EVERY course FS offers now or in the future + the Alaska supplement. I plan on attending 3 or 4 times a year. That ends up being about $75 to $100 /day for top-notch training. On top of this I get a Mossberg 590A1, a Springfield XD40 and an AR-15, private range use for free, a free locker onsite, blah, blah, blah ... what's not to like?

When I was there earlier this month, they were clearly beginning the first phases of some new construction (which hadn't been the case previously). A recent newsletter detailed a slew of approvals from the local county for one project or another. They're hiring more instructors (and increasing staff size), adding additional courses for 2010 ... so it sure doesn't look like they are falling apart and going under.

I'm happy so far. If they fall apart, there is nothing on paper which requires me to keep paying ... so where is my big risk in all of this?

Python2
09-17-2009, 5:59 PM
Oh HELL no :). No, still got the '97 Buell. Wouldn't trade that for anything.

Heh, heh, if you happen to be in my neck of the woods, I know you hate the Bay Area, but maybe we can go on a ride for lunch (I am buying). Mine aint Buell, just your regular Harley 1200XL low:) Just want to meet this JimMarch I have spoked on the phone couple of years back.:)

1JimMarch
09-17-2009, 7:36 PM
You'll have to drive a ways.

I'm in Tucson AZ right now :).

MP301
09-17-2009, 9:43 PM
Well said and very true. I researched FS too prior to my first class...and, being the skeptic I am, I went out of my way looking for flaws while I was there and came up short... Yeah, the websire isnt the best and either is the marketing, but apparently it works for the masses, because this last weekend produced something like 430 students!

I really hope people try it out for themselves before buying into the negative posts by those that have not attended...i really do.

dansgold, have you thought about your birthday class yet? I am doing it in March. I am trying to get the whole 40 people so I can have a range exclusively to my group. Should be very interesting to say the least!


Pardon me for chiming in, as I am certainly not a regular poster (although I read almost daily just to keep up)

It concerns me greatly that people are willing to post defamatory statements based upon "what they heard", but no actual first hand knowledge.

The fact is that what you THINK you know is often just not true. Having been in business, and having had to defend against frivolous lawsuits, I know firsthand. So many things end up being "he said, she said", with the court making decisions which might just be 100% at odds with the facts on the ground.

For that matter, my CHURCH (mainstream protestant) had all sorts of lies and half-truths and out-n-out slander spread about it when we simply planned to build a facility that some locals didn't want in their community.

If you don't know something firsthand about Front Sight, simple decency demands that you qualify your statements with "I heard", "I read", etc.

I researched Front Sight extensively for over a year before even taking a single course. I found a lot of hearsay and rumor being repeated all over the place, and people jumping to silly conclusions over factoids which represent only a snapshot in time. I don't know how people can think so little of their own integrity to act this way.

I've paid less to FS so far than the retail price of the bonus weapons I've received with my membership, and I've been out for training twice. They never ran a credit check on me (I'd know), and they've extended weapons and training UP FRONT while I've only paid about $1500 out of pocket. I'm not even being charged interest. This is the kind of "handshake" agreement that speaks loudly of a business which believes in the value of the service they offer.

The website is silly if you ask me, and the marketing plan a bit cheezy. Nonetheless, the training is excellent. I don't imagine that the $2000 for a 4-day course is the lowest priced training out there, but I can attest that there are all sorts of technical trainings in various fields that cost about that much. I'm paying $100/month for a membership which includes EVERY course FS offers now or in the future + the Alaska supplement. I plan on attending 3 or 4 times a year. That ends up being about $75 to $100 /day for top-notch training. On top of this I get a Mossberg 590A1, a Springfield XD40 and an AR-15, private range use for free, a free locker onsite, blah, blah, blah ... what's not to like?

When I was there earlier this month, they were clearly beginning the first phases of some new construction (which hadn't been the case previously). A recent newsletter detailed a slew of approvals from the local county for one project or another. They're hiring more instructors (and increasing staff size), adding additional courses for 2010 ... so it sure doesn't look like they are falling apart and going under.

I'm happy so far. If they fall apart, there is nothing on paper which requires me to keep paying ... so where is my big risk in all of this?

$P-Ritch$
09-17-2009, 10:47 PM
HI there,
As you can see, I'm not a big poster but I've been observing on this site for a while now.

I'd just thought I'd chime in because back in April I went to my first front sight course. It happened to be the deal where you go to the four day defensive handgun, 30-state CCW, and get a "free XD-40 and other stuff" package.

I was very impressed with the course as a whole. The instructors were very knowledgeable and patient, yet they covered a lot of information each day. The facilities were more than adequate, considering that they are still in developmental phases. Plus, they don't waste a single minute of your time from start to finish. Even during your lunch break they put on lectures such as "use of lethal force" or "choosing the right hand gun."

I liked enough to where I became a member that weekend and plan to go to my second course here in about 3 weeks. I am also trying to average out about 3-4 visits a year.

Well, that's all I have to say. I hope it was helpful to someone. Let me know if you have any questions.

Electricboy
09-18-2009, 12:57 AM
MP301 I was just at frontsight for the ccw course this weekend. It was awesome. If nothing else it is a great place to network. On the 5th day (tuesday) which was the ccw qualifier they took care of all the finger prints for nevada, utah, and florida. I left frontsight with everything i needed to complete the process for all three states and stayed an extra day to go to the local sheriff and turn in my papers. I stayed 6 nights for $300, free breakfast for each day i had class, they packed a big lunch with snacks for $4. And RV camping is everywhere.

Cant wait to go again! I met a restaurant owner from Tahoe, so when i go to gamble i'll now start visiting his place. And met a fire captain from sonoma county, and an electrical contractor, etc. I left with buisiness cards and a lot of training info. It was an 11 hour drive and i will be trying to go 3-4 times per year.

If you have trouble filling your forty spots pm me.:D;)

Forgot to mention i was talking to everone about calguns.

MP301
09-18-2009, 9:48 PM
Glad to hear it...My class (the 4 day Rifle) this last weekend had a So Cal LE, a medic a contruction engineer, a pilot and many other interesting people...great place to network is right...and ill let you know if i have openings for the birthday bash......what would be great is if we could put together a Calguns class at FS in the future! Complete with all of the students wearing calguns shirts! Ill have to work on that I think...

Bobula went with me and did the 4 day handgun and wore his Calguns shirt...and discovered other calguns members and kudos from an intructor..

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=222614

The Nomadd
09-19-2009, 8:54 PM
Me and Kyla just got back to the hotel from day 2 of the 4-day Defensive Handgun Course... Talk about alot to digest while you're there, but I can't complain about the training so far, and there seems to be a wide range of folks from different states, and walks of life here. (Quite a few folks from Cali) Only thing that sucks? The hotel we're staying at is hosting a gun show, but it's during the hours we're actually out at Front Site, so we don't get to see it. Other than that, there was a old western shooting competition in town, and several of the participants (In full western garb) were in the hotel restaurant. Sat next to a guy who looked alot like Buffalo Bill, as well as assorted prospector and gambler-looking types, so it made dinner rather interesting. Anyways, I'll probably post more about this trip, once it's all said and done, and give my overall thoughts on Front Sight.

MP301
09-20-2009, 8:41 PM
Where are you staying?

The Nomadd
09-22-2009, 10:33 PM
Where are you staying?


We were staying at the Saddle West Hotel. Not a bad place to stay... At least I was digging the jacuzzi bathtub in the room :D

1JimMarch
09-22-2009, 10:58 PM
If you've attended recently: have they ripped out that silly rope slide thing that somebody got killed on?

MP301
09-23-2009, 2:52 AM
If you've attended recently: have they ripped out that silly rope slide thing that somebody got killed on?

You just cant help yourself, can you Jim? You never miss an opportunity to hate on FS, so obviously you have a personal problem with it, right? I dont want to get into a pissin contest with you, but geeze, its getting old.

Why dont you just tell everyone what YOUR real problem with FS is and be done with it? Put it into context for us so we can better understand why you would be this way.

Why do you so personally hate this place that you would never miss an opportunity to crap on it, even though we both know that it is great idea for people to attend?

Come on, out with it! OR stop being such a hater.....

MP301
09-23-2009, 2:59 AM
We were staying at the Saddle West Hotel. Not a bad place to stay... At least I was digging the jacuzzi bathtub in the room :D

Yeah, the first time I went, I didnt know any better and stayed at the Best Western....was twice the price...nice place, but no better then the Saddle West...

1JimMarch
09-23-2009, 4:06 PM
You just cant help yourself, can you Jim? You never miss an opportunity to hate on FS, so obviously you have a personal problem with it, right? I dont want to get into a pissin contest with you, but geeze, its getting old.

Why dont you just tell everyone what YOUR real problem with FS is and be done with it? Put it into context for us so we can better understand why you would be this way.

Why do you so personally hate this place that you would never miss an opportunity to crap on it, even though we both know that it is great idea for people to attend?

Come on, out with it! OR stop being such a hater.....

Because I know for a fact he's a con artist.

In particular, I know he continued to sell real estate-based memberships after the residential real estate deal collapsed when he couldn't come up with a sewage plan. That's just one of many documentable cases. I've seen the text of the numerous vendors who've had to sue him for payment, I've seen the compliance (or lack thereof) records at the state fire marshall's office.

Somebody I knew got screwed and asked me to look into it. I can't discuss it further than that. Bottom line, I know for a fact he's a crook.

That clear enough?

KylaGWolf
09-23-2009, 4:44 PM
Oh *****.

I just sent them a check over the mail for some 2 day defensive handgun course.

Have a blast at the class. Just got done taking a four day class and can say was worth every penny. Didn't see anything to do with scientology when I was there. So I think that is a bit of FUD.

1JimMarch
09-23-2009, 7:50 PM
MP301: if you're ever near Carson City NV, go to the office of the state fire marshal. Ask to review the Frontsight file. It'll take you about an hour.

You WILL question every element of Iggy's business ethics after that.

Go to the office of the state water board, not far from there. There's another file. Read it and weep.

Don't want to do that? Cool. Point out this thread to Iggy. See if he sues me. Won't happen. He knows as well as I do what's in those files in Carson City and what's at the Nye County planning office, and the court records at both Nye and Clark counties.

dansgold
09-24-2009, 7:39 AM
I've got news for you ... check the public records of almost ANY business of any size and you'll find all sorts of "evidence" which can be misconstrued by unsophisticated minds.

I've spoken to people who bought the "real estate" memberships as well. They think the (3) people who brought suit were completely off-base. It's very easy for people to hear "we're planning to ..." and turn that into "I promise that we'll ...", and that seems to be the case here. Consider that out of dozens, only 3 sued.

You make a lot of claims Jim, and somehow expect that we should simply follow your shrill ramblings because you claim to have special knowledge. Fine, you're entitled to your opinion based upon whatever experience and knowledge you've gained.

My own personal knowledge and experience teaches me that there are some people who become obsessively fixated with some issue, and it becomes their "white whale" ... it appears to me that this applies in your case. So, as much as you are entitled to your opinion re: FS, others (thousands) are entitled by the same token to simply note that they have had a positive experience. For my part, I am free to be of the opinion that you are an angry man with a giant chip on your shoulder. I could be wrong, but there is nothing in your approach which leads me to believe otherwise.

If you really have some beef or case - and it's as airtight as you claim - there are better and more certain ways to get satisfaction than "internet stalking".

MP301
09-24-2009, 7:39 AM
I knew there was a personal reason...you have a friend who was one of the plaintiff's in the land deal lawsuit? We already figured out by your comments...that its personal with you...otherwise you would say something like...."I dont like Piazza because of this and that, but his training is top notch"...

Well, all BS and speculation aside here, why did your friend wish to keep attending FS even though they were suing? Would it be because its a great place to train and whatever one might think of its business practices, ITS A GREAT PLACE TO TRAIN? ITS A GREAT PLACE TO TRAIN? Are you catching this?

At least admit, whilst attempting to sway others from going because of your personal reasons....that its because of YOUR personal reasons not because they wouldnt benefit a great deal from the instruction...

Now, repeat after me Jim...."Although I hate FS, the training is wonderful!"
or "I think Piazza is a snake, but the training is great!"


MP301: if you're ever near Carson City NV, go to the office of the state fire marshal. Ask to review the Frontsight file. It'll take you about an hour.

You WILL question every element of Iggy's business ethics after that.

Go to the office of the state water board, not far from there. There's another file. Read it and weep.

Don't want to do that? Cool. Point out this thread to Iggy. See if he sues me. Won't happen. He knows as well as I do what's in those files in Carson City and what's at the Nye County planning office, and the court records at both Nye and Clark counties.

1JimMarch
09-24-2009, 9:50 AM
Well as far as Piazza's training goes, I have a whole different reason to distrust. But it's not specific to him and I'm at odds with dang near everybody on one key point: I don't focus on the front sight anymore. I focus on the target, and use sights that allow me to line them up correctly even though both front and rear are blurry.

The concept involved was invented by AZ gunsmith Tim Sheehan:

http://www.goshen-hexsite.com/index2.htm

This puts me cross-ways with Col. Cooper's various students, etc, not just Iggy. So I'm not going to comment on his training, other than to say Tim Sheehan got it right, no that's NOT "just a ghost ring" and others will eventually figure it out.

dansgold
09-24-2009, 10:46 AM
I am experiencing a profound state of confirmation bias right now.

zinfull
09-24-2009, 10:56 AM
OK so you do not like the principle of front sight targeting. Until the other sights are more common then why not train with the sight people use. How about instead of bashing this training you start a post on the benefits of your preferred sights. I would like to know more as my eye sight is not the best and shooting with glasses is a hassle.

jerry

1JimMarch
09-24-2009, 11:25 AM
Let's back up a sec: I switched my sights over to Tim Sheehan's concept long AFTER figuring out Iggy is a crook. I didn't mean to mix issues and I'm well aware that the use of the front sight Frontsight teaches is still the norm.

I didn't intend to bash Iggy's training per se. However, I've not heard reports that it's better than any other reputable school and therefore worth discarding the rule of thumb "don't do business with crooks".

As to my experiences with a homebrewed clone of the Hexsite Tim has been kind enough to let me pursue, I've described that in more detail elsewhere:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=215499&page=4 (starting bottom of page 4)

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=373810&page=2 (starting towards the top of page 2)

----

But again: it wasn't my intent to slam Iggy's training, I'm much more concerned with his business ethics.

Here's why it should matter to somebody attending FS:

Even without getting involved in residential real estate, Iggy's business plan calls for selling you "extended memberships" involving long-term training opportunities.

Tell me I'm wrong here - tell me you don't get at least a minor sales pitch on long-term membership "opportunities". All you have to do is look at his website:

http://www.frontsight.com/handgun-training-memberships.asp

The "Patriot" program is a bit under $8,000 - the cheapest. The "Diamond" is HOLY CRAP $99 thousand and change, comes with a Rolex watch. Scratch that, a *diamond* Rolex watch. Yikes.

Well the problem with that is, if you buy into a membership program (at any price level) without understanding how ridiculously shaky Iggy's finances are, how he's being hounded by creditors, sued almost as often as anybody else showers (yes, exaggeration, but still...) you won't understand how risky doing business with him on long-term deals is. He'll *probably* be able to hold it all together long enough for you to blow through $8k of training if you cram it in fast enough...but $50k worth in the "Silver" program?

Ain't.

No.

Way.

Not with finances that look like a continual slow-motion train wreck.

With the residential real estate sales program dead, that's the main area of business fraud Iggy is engaged in: he's selling long-term memberships to people who don't understand the risks.

dansgold
09-24-2009, 1:45 PM
Why would you post ONLY the information on the website, when you KNOW - if you've even done minimal research or know much of anything at all about FS - that memberships are often available for a fraction of that price, and there are sales/promotions/deals all the time? Example: There is a lifetime membership available right now for $912 ... includes:


Two Day Defensive Handgun
Two Day Tactical Shotgun
Two Day Practical Rifle
Four Day Defensive Handgun
Four Day Tactical Shotgun
Four Day Practical Rifle
Two Day Handgun Skill Builder
Two Day Advanced Tactical Handgun
Four Day Handgun Combat Master Prep


I'm paying a fraction of that website price for a Diamond+Alaska membership (with weapons included) PLUS a Challenge membership for my wife PLUS a Self-Reliance membership for my daughter. Yep, for all of that together ... I am supposed to think that I am being scammed when nobody has even asked me to sign loan paperwork, and I can just quit/stop paying whenever I want? A few months ago they were offering (onsite in LV) a 2-for-1 Legacy membership for $4000 including a bonus XD40, AR-15 and Mossberg 590a1. These kinds of deals and others are offered all the time, and anyone with a passing knowledge of FS can attest to this simple fact.

You say "I've not heard reports that it's better than any other reputable school" ... but such reports are so common -amongst people who have attended FS and other schools - that it's almost impossible for you to have not encountered them if you have been paying attention at all. I am certain there are contrary opinions (I've seen them) but for you to insist you haven't seen ANY is simply not believable.

It's reasonable to suspect that either a) You really don't know what you are talking about, or b) You are deliberately (and deceptively) trying to paint the worst possible picture while knowing quite well that you are not giving a complete, accurate, truthful rendering of the facts. Frankly, this calls into question the verity of the rest of your claimed "research".

Either way, it identifies you further as a guy with a giant chip his shoulder, willing to play fast-n-loose (possibly even lying) for effect. That seems a bit hypocritical to me, if you intend to question anyone else's "ethics".

Further, you've called Piazza a "crook" and said that he (or FS) are guilty of "real estate fraud". Has a crime been proven, or is this just more of your playing fast-n-loose with the facts? I am aware that many - especially the media - throw around such terms loosely, but you approach this as though you are some kind of "arbiter of truth" to whom we should all pay heed. Shouldn't you have a higher standard of ethics and integrity if you assume for yourself such a role?

Lastly, you spew a lot of factoids devoid of context:

"He's been sued by vendors" ... Do you have any idea how impossible it is to be in business without being sued?
"Have they removed that silly rope thing that got someone killed?" ... Perspective is important. More people have died at Disneyland than at FS over the past decade.
"finances that look like a continual slow-motion train wreck" ... This must be why they are increasing staff size, adding new courses (yay), and why I saw the beginnings of new development underway earlier this month. Hardly the picture of a place "about to go under".

You really just seem to have made this the windmill for your jousting, Jim. It all seems a bit unhinged.