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aermotor
09-12-2009, 12:23 PM
Going on some hikes just up in the foothills near all the burned out fire areas and was wondering about the legalities of carrying an unloaded gun, locked in a gun rug with mags in there as well in my backpack. Is that kosher or negative? Thanks guys!

HunterJim
09-12-2009, 12:57 PM
aermotor,

Check the Safepacker Holster.

jim

http://store.thewilderness.com/index.php?cPath=51

bubbagump
09-12-2009, 1:02 PM
I believe that is a Negatory...

When transporting a locked concealed handgun while on foot, you must follow one of the exemptions listed in 12026.2...

If the handgun is locked & concealed in your vehicle, you can go anywhere.

Your better off carrying an unloaded long gun or shotgun.

I usually take a rifle, non-lead ammo, and hunting license when I'm hiking in a national forest. If I'm asked what I'm hunting...I say coyote.

EDIT:

12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
...
(11) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a lawful camping activity for
the purpose of having that firearm available for lawful personal
protection while at the lawful campsite. This paragraph shall not be
construed to override the statutory authority granted to the
Department of Parks and Recreation or any other state or local
governmental agencies to promulgate rules and regulations governing
the administration of parks and campgrounds.
...
12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
...
(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.

JBird33
09-13-2009, 9:28 AM
I believe that is a Negatory...

When transporting a locked concealed handgun while on foot, you must follow one of the exemptions listed in 12026.2...

If the handgun is locked & concealed in your vehicle, you can go anywhere.

Your better off carrying an unloaded long gun or shotgun.

I usually take a rifle, non-lead ammo, and hunting license when I'm hiking in a national forest. If I'm asked what I'm hunting...I say coyote.

EDIT:

12026.2. (a) Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
...
(11) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a lawful camping activity for
the purpose of having that firearm available for lawful personal
protection while at the lawful campsite. This paragraph shall not be
construed to override the statutory authority granted to the
Department of Parks and Recreation or any other state or local
governmental agencies to promulgate rules and regulations governing
the administration of parks and campgrounds.
...
12027. Section 12025 does not apply to, or affect, any of the
following:
...
(g) Licensed hunters or fishermen carrying pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person while
engaged in hunting or fishing, or transporting those firearms
unloaded when going to or returning from the hunting or fishing
expedition.

A rifle isn't considered to be "capable of being concealed."

cineski
09-13-2009, 9:54 AM
LA Times news: A hiker and his companion were found dead on one of the few uncharred trails in the Angeles Forest. Apparently the victims of some sort of violent attack. The hiker, found beheaded, had his hands frozen on the last combination number of his gun case. Locals are praising the fact that he was unable to take out his AK-47 mass people killing machine before unleashing hell upon the children and kittens on that trail. Even the sheriff's department were shocked at how small and compact AK-47's are now days. No autopsy is planned. The bodies will be melted down with the gun.

sargenv
09-13-2009, 10:05 AM
I dunno.. if it were legal to open carry a loaded firearm in the National forest areas, I would do that. In the past I've done this and no one ever even bothered question me. I always checked the regs of the areas in question and never had an issue. It may be different now, but that is still what I'd do.

AFAIK a firearm with mags in a locked container put away is basically a non issue. If they don't suspect you have it, why tell anyone? How often do you have a forest service ranger frisk you and go through all your stuff while you are backpacking through an area? Don't be conspicuous and likely you have little to worry about.

Since I have a hunting license, likely I have several statuates on my side. Rabbit season is year round.. There may not be any rabbits, but I may just be a lousy hunter. ;)

Decoligny
09-13-2009, 3:44 PM
I dunno.. if it were legal to open carry a loaded firearm in the National forest areas, I would do that. In the past I've done this and no one ever even bothered question me. I always checked the regs of the areas in question and never had an issue. It may be different now, but that is still what I'd do.

AFAIK a firearm with mags in a locked container put away is basically a non issue. If they don't suspect you have it, why tell anyone? How often do you have a forest service ranger frisk you and go through all your stuff while you are backpacking through an area? Don't be conspicuous and likely you have little to worry about.

Since I have a hunting license, likely I have several statuates on my side. Rabbit season is year round.. There may not be any rabbits, but I may just be a lousy hunter. ;)

If it is a violation of PC 12025, due to him not going to one of the exempted places in 12026.2, then he is carrying a concealed firearm illegally.

Sarcastic mode intiated:
If he is going to be violating 12025, then why bother with locking it up in the backpack at all? Why not go all out? If you are suggesting that just because someone can't see it then it's OK because "it's a non issue", then he might as well conceal it somewhere that he can get to it more quickly, right? And make sure it's loaded with one in the chamber! After all it's only a couple of misdemeanors that nobody is likely charge him with cause the won't see it. :rolleyes:
Sarcasm mode deactivated.

I am not advocating that he carry illegally at all. If he is going to carry out in the wilderness, then carry legally. Bring a long gun and a hunting license. LOADED OPEN CARRY.

GrizzlyGuy
09-13-2009, 7:00 PM
I do exactly what you are proposing, except that my backpack (with locked gun rug inside) is bungeed to the front rack of my ATV. Therefore, I'm legal since my ATV is a motor vehicle and this 12026.1 exemption applies:

"(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment."

{My read is that "within a motor vehicle" means 'on the vehicle' for cases of ATVs and motorcycles}

Since you'd be on foot, I think bubbagump and Decoligny have it right: You need to UOC (or LOC if off the FS roads and in a place where you can legally discharge the firearm).

sac550
09-13-2009, 7:07 PM
Get a hunting license and you are fine. 12025 doesn't apply if hunting. Coyote season is open year round and doesn't require tags.

Decoligny
09-13-2009, 7:07 PM
One main thing to remember is we DO NOT advocate breaking the law on this forum, EVER.

sac550
09-13-2009, 7:08 PM
Plus you can carry loaded if you are in the national forest anyways.

sargenv
09-13-2009, 9:04 PM
Plus you can carry loaded if you are in the national forest anyways.

I never advocated doing something illegal.. I did state...

I always checked the regs of the areas in question and never had an issue. It may be different now, but that is still what I'd do.


If the area where you will be hiking is illegal for guns regardless, then don't carry anything. However if it is legal or UOC or LOC, then have at it. I'd also call the local ranger station to clarify what is and is not legal for you to do while you are backpacking on their land.

I'm not a lawyer, and I can't quote the law, but I do hunt and have carried a loaded firearm (in a holster on my backpack frame) while on national forest trails in the back country and never received any flak for doing so. If there were an incident where there was a mountain lion or bear (or some human that didn't like the way I looked) that wanted to make my life suck, damned if I'm going to climb a tree or fight it/them with a sharp/blunt stick.

A lot of the places where I would consider doing this kind of thing are in areas that are a tad more laid back than what we urbanites are used to. In a lot of parts of this state, people DO NOT freak out when they see you are carrying some kind of firearm while out in the sticks.

Seesm
09-13-2009, 9:29 PM
carry for big cats... hope you can unlock it if need be. :(

Rule .308
09-13-2009, 10:09 PM
Like others have said, get a hunting license and quit worrying about it. It is legal to CCW while hunting or fishing, it is legal to do so while en route to hunt or fish, if the area you are in is legal to discharge firearms then it is legal to CCW loaded so long as you have a hunting or fishing license and are actively doing so or en route to do it.

cineski
09-13-2009, 10:52 PM
Carry a big knife on your hip or chest.

Meplat
09-13-2009, 10:52 PM
:chillpill: Loaded open carry on public land is lawful in almost all circumstances. You city boys crack me up. You just assume it is unlawful unless someone gives you permission!:rolleyes:

One main thing to remember is we DO NOT advocate breaking the law on this forum, EVER.

Glock Fan
09-13-2009, 11:21 PM
Lots of good questions with even more confusing answers!

Seesm
09-14-2009, 12:05 AM
So your saying if I go hiking I can not carry my .40 (unloaded) with the mags in the same locked backpack? Hhmmm I am thinking I could get away with that and not end up in jail... Mountain lions are all over where I hike.

FreedomIsNotFree
09-14-2009, 6:22 AM
Open carry, either loaded or unloaded. If you want to be discreet then you can put it in your pack so long as you have it UNloaded and locked in container of some sort.

Decoligny
09-14-2009, 7:17 AM
:chillpill: Loaded open carry on public land is lawful in almost all circumstances. You city boys crack me up. You just assume it is unlawful unless someone gives you permission!:rolleyes:

I wasn't assuming anything was illegal. I was making the comment about not advocating breaking the law in regards to the tone of a previous post, i.e. "AFAIK a firearm with mags in a locked container put away is basically a non issue. If they don't suspect you have it, why tell anyone? " and "Don't be conspicuous and likely you have little to worry about."

These statements sounded to me like the advocacy of the "don't ask, don't tell" theory of "who cares if it's illegal if noboby finds out".

Loaded open carry on public land is lawful in almost all circumstances is not quite true. In Los Angeles County for instance, nearly all of Los Angeles County is listed in the county code as being "prohibited areas" for the discharge of firearms while not engaged in hunting. This means that according to PC 12031 you cannot carry a loaded firearm in almost all of Los Angeles County, unless you are hunting.

Not a matter of asking permission, it is a matter of knowing the law and not violating it.

DisgruntledReaper
09-14-2009, 7:54 AM
Here is what I always find problematic with the issue of carrying a handgun OR a rifle when in the wilderness ...... When I go offroading,camping,hiking,etc and you are in the wild, you are nothing but a part of naure and subject to all of nature's wonders..good and bad.
What good is it to have a handgun if you cannot get to it IF you need it..not like you can tell a bear,lion,whatever to 'hold on a minute' while you get it out and ready. Besides what about if something should happen and you HAVE to spend a night out there? Then you are 'camping' and perfectly fine.

Regarding Rifles,having a hunting license is a great idea but should still verify what hunting season is going on in the area you are going to be in...i mean if it wabbit season and you have a 3030...people go 'hmmmm'. My problem is the lightest rifles I have to take with me when packing are not 'traditional hunting rifles' so i have to have a 5 rd mag in it ..but then there is the 'you cant hunt with THAT rifle' crowd....

I have a couple friends who have been going to mt baldy camping and hiking quite a bit and on 2! occasions they were confronted with bears up there even though they were told that they 'would never likely even see a bear' by the rangers..and mind you there are 'bear country 'signs posted. Matter of fact there are signs up in Big Bear Mountain that state 'you are entering bear country.....your safety CANNOT BE GUARANTEED" Now if that does not imply that you are responsible for your own safety I dont know what does.
Dont even get me started on the pot farms, weird azz 'mountain men', and other 2 legged critters.. Matter of fact I worry about those issues more than the bear and lion issues..especially in the more remote areas like the Nevadas, yosemite back country(well bears and moose there).

Sorry I did not mean to hijack if i did, just trying to point out that everyones situation is unique....and we all try to do the best legal way we can regarding those circumstances at hand.

oh and dropping one in the woods with your pants at the ankles then getting the 'I am being watched by something' feeling......yea good times!

kap
09-14-2009, 8:12 AM
:chillpill: Loaded open carry on public land is lawful in almost all circumstances. You city boys crack me up. You just assume it is unlawful unless someone gives you permission!:rolleyes:

Cool! Thanks for letting us city boys know we have permission from the authorities to do it! :p

MudCamper
09-14-2009, 8:12 AM
Going on some hikes just up in the foothills near all the burned out fire areas and was wondering about the legalities of carrying an unloaded gun, locked in a gun rug with mags in there as well in my backpack. Is that kosher or negative? Thanks guys!

Lots of confusing answers in this thread.

If the "gun rug" is a fully enclosed locked case then you are perfectly legal to carry it concealed this way.

If you are in unincorporated territory you also can carry it openly and loaded. And pretty much everywhere you can open carry unloaded. (No I am not talking about city-UOC but actual carry in the country for practical use.)

I do not recommend using any hunting exemptions unless you are actually hunting. You could trip yourself up in your lie. (Like are you in a condor zone? Better not have lead ammo. etc.) There are plenty of legal ways to pack your firearm while hiking.

For detailed legal information about National Forrests, etc. see this post: Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457).

xrMike
09-14-2009, 8:25 AM
One main thing to remember is we DO NOT advocate breaking the law on this forum, EVER.Bucking for a moderator spot, eh?

POLICESTATE
09-14-2009, 8:53 AM
To clarify I am under the impression based on other topics about unloaded handgun in a locked container and concealment being legal.

So here's a couple of scenarios and let's see if these are good or not:


In Cars:
1. Pistol, unloaded, inside a locked hard container, loaded magazines/speedloaders also inside the container: GOOD?
2. Pistol, unloaded, inside a locked and fully enclosed SOFT container (like a gun rug) with loaded mags/speed loaders also in the container: GOOD?

In a backpack/purse/bag/type stuff:
3. Pistol, unloaded, inside a locked hard container, loaded magazines/speedloaders also inside the container: GOOD?
4. Pistol, unloaded, inside a locked and fully enclosed SOFT container (like a gun rug) with loaded mags/speed loaders also in the container: GOOD?

As I understand the law (and I am no lawyer) I can, if I want, LEGALLY carry an unloaded pistol inside a locked, fully enclosed case (soft or hard) inside my backpack with a loaded mag or speedloader in the same case (or not) and be okay the only caveat is I cannot take into places where firearms are specifically prohibited either by law or signage (courts, schools, peninsula open space park thing)

Does that all sound correct?

Decoligny
09-14-2009, 9:19 AM
To clarify I am under the impression based on other topics about unloaded handgun in a locked container and concealment being legal.

So here's a couple of scenarios and let's see if these are good or not:


In Cars:
1. Pistol, unloaded, inside a locked hard container, loaded magazines/speedloaders also inside the container: GOOD?
2. Pistol, unloaded, inside a locked and fully enclosed SOFT container (like a gun rug) with loaded mags/speed loaders also in the container: GOOD?

In a backpack/purse/bag/type stuff:
3. Pistol, unloaded, inside a locked hard container, loaded magazines/speedloaders also inside the container: GOOD?
4. Pistol, unloaded, inside a locked and fully enclosed SOFT container (like a gun rug) with loaded mags/speed loaders also in the container: GOOD?

As I understand the law (and I am no lawyer) I can, if I want, LEGALLY carry an unloaded pistol inside a locked, fully enclosed case (soft or hard) inside my backpack with a loaded mag or speedloader in the same case (or not) and be okay the only caveat is I cannot take into places where firearms are specifically prohibited either by law or signage (courts, schools, peninsula open space park thing)

Does that all sound correct?

There have been a couple of threads dealing with this specific question. There are two schools of thought.

First school of thought:
PC 12025 makes Concealed Carry without a CCW illegal.
PC 12026.1 and PC 12026.2 are two exception clauses.
PC 12026.1 deals specifically with exceptions in a motor vehicle. Unloaded & in Locked secure case = legal.
PC 12026.2 deals with specific destination exemptions, such as, you are legal to carry an unloaded pistol in a backpack to/from the range.
Unless you are going to/from one of the specified destinations (necessary deviations only, gotta pee, stop at the gas station, starving, stop to eat), or you are in a motor vehicle, you are not exempt from PC 12025.

Second school of thought:
PC 12025 makes Concealed Carry without a CCW illegal.
12026.1 and 12026.2 are two exception clauses.
12026.1 deals specifically with exceptions in a motor vehicle. Unloaded & in Locked secure case = legal.
12026.2 deals with specific destination exemptions, such as, you are legal to carry an unloaded pistol in a backpack to/from the range.
PC 12026.2 states the following:
(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d), and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.
(c) This section does not prohibit or limit the otherwise lawful carrying or transportation of any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person in accordance with this chapter.
This is interpreted as stating that it is OK to carry concealed and unloaded as long as your purpose for doing so is legal.

I am of the first school of thought. As I read it, PC 12025 makes concealed carry without a CCW illegal unless you meet certain specific exceptions. Those exceptions are clearly listed in 12026.1 and 12026.2.

MudCamper
09-14-2009, 9:22 AM
To clarify I am under the impression based on other topics about unloaded handgun in a locked container and concealment being legal.

So here's a couple of scenarios and let's see if these are good or not:


In Cars:
1. Pistol, unloaded, inside a locked hard container, loaded magazines/speedloaders also inside the container: GOOD?
2. Pistol, unloaded, inside a locked and fully enclosed SOFT container (like a gun rug) with loaded mags/speed loaders also in the container: GOOD?

In a backpack/purse/bag/type stuff:
3. Pistol, unloaded, inside a locked hard container, loaded magazines/speedloaders also inside the container: GOOD?
4. Pistol, unloaded, inside a locked and fully enclosed SOFT container (like a gun rug) with loaded mags/speed loaders also in the container: GOOD?

As I understand the law (and I am no lawyer) I can, if I want, LEGALLY carry an unloaded pistol inside a locked, fully enclosed case (soft or hard) inside my backpack with a loaded mag or speedloader in the same case (or not) and be okay the only caveat is I cannot take into places where firearms are specifically prohibited either by law or signage (courts, schools, peninsula open space park thing)

Does that all sound correct?

All four of your scenarios are legal. Some will argue about soft cases not being good enough, but IMO they are wrong.

There is no law that prohibits carrying ammo in the same case as the firearm. Any statement to the contrary is FUD myth. See What Is Loaded (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660) for more details.

Decoligny
09-14-2009, 9:24 AM
Bucking for a moderator spot, eh?

The beauty of this site is that it is primarily self-moderated. 95% of the time the general membership can keep itself from stepping over the line. 5% of the time the actual Moderators have to step in and drop the hammer. By self moderating we take an enormous workload off of the Moderators.

POLICESTATE
09-14-2009, 9:27 AM
Thanks Decoligny for your insight.

I think first school of thought is best to be safe, second school of thought would be nicer for us but carries more risk. I myself fall into the first school of thought, and so for the purposes of this topic I would suggest if you are going backpacking in an area where you cannot LOC that you UOC instead.

I think the hunting license option is the way to go, actually it reminds me I need to get off my butt and get one myself!

Decoligny
09-14-2009, 9:30 AM
Thanks Decoligny for your insight.

I think first school of thought is best to be safe, second school of thought would be nicer for us but carries more risk. I myself fall into the first school of thought, and so for the purposes of this topic I would suggest if you are going backpacking in an area where you cannot LOC that you UOC instead.

I think the hunting license option is the way to go, actually it reminds me I need to get off my butt and get one myself!

And as stated before, Coyote is always in season. And they can be tough critters, so caliber should not be an issue.

POLICESTATE
09-14-2009, 10:12 AM
223 perfect for coyote, so hunting license and backpacking with your OLL rifle?

Decoligny
09-14-2009, 10:41 AM
223 perfect for coyote, so hunting license and backpacking with your OLL rifle?

Just make sure you are either outside of the California Condor area, or that you don't have any lead bullets.

You can actually take coyote, and any other non-game mammals with a pistol.


From CA Fish and Game Code:
§475. Methods of Take for Nongame Birds and Nongame Mammals.

Nongame birds and nongame mammals may be taken in any manner except as follows:

(a) Poison may not be used.

(b) Recorded or electrically amplified bird or mammal calls or sounds or recorded or electrically amplified imitations of bird or mammal calls or sounds may not be used to take any nongame bird or nongame mammal except coyotes, bobcats, American crows and starlings.

(c) Fallow deer, sambar deer, axis deer, sika deer, aoudad, mouflon, tahr and feral goats may be taken only with the equipment and ammunition specified in Section 353 of these regulations.

(d) Traps may be used to take nongame birds and nongame mammals only in accordance with the provisions of Section 465.5 of these regulations and sections 3003.1 and 4004 of the Fish and Game Code.

(e) No feed, bait or other material capable of attracting a nongame mammal may be placed or used in conjunction with dogs for the purpose of taking any nongame mammals. Nothing in this section shall prohibit an individual operating in accordance with the provisions of Section 465.5 from using a dog to follow a trap drag and taking the nongame mammal caught in that trap.

(f) Methods of take within the California condor range. Except as otherwise provided, it is unlawful to use or possess projectiles containing more than one percent lead by weight while taking or attempting to take any nongame birds or nongame mammals in those areas described in Section 3004.5, Fish and Game Code.

(1) For purposes of Section 475, a “projectile” is defined as any bullet, ball, sabot, slug, buckshot, shot, pellet or other device which is expelled from a firearm through a barrel by force.

(2) Except as otherwise provided, it is unlawful to possess any projectile containing lead in excess of the amount permitted in subsection 475(f) and a firearm capable of firing the projectile while taking or attempting to take any nongame bird or nongame mammal within the area described in subsection 475(f). The possession of a projectile containing lead in excess of the amount allowed in subsection 475(f) without possessing a firearm capable of firing the projectile is not a violation of this section.

JDay
09-14-2009, 12:49 PM
If its legal to discharge in that area you can loaded open carry.

Decoligny
09-14-2009, 2:16 PM
If its legal to discharge in that area you can loaded open carry.

Since the majority of the burn area where he will be hiking is in Los Angeles County, and the majority of Los Angeles County is a no discharge unless hunting area, LOC in LA County is usually pretty much limited to those with a hunting license. If he is perchance hiking in San Bernardino County then he has a whole other set of County ordinances to deal with.

http://www.clerkoftheboard.co.riverside.ca.us/ords/500/514.10.pdf

ripcurlksm
09-14-2009, 2:41 PM
Bucking for a moderator spot, eh?

take it easy

SJgunguy24
09-14-2009, 4:14 PM
:chillpill: Loaded open carry on public land is lawful in almost all circumstances. You city boys crack me up. You just assume it is unlawful unless someone gives you permission!:rolleyes:

Big city boy or not, when hiking is meth/pot/ Mt. Lion country, you better have something to protect yourself. It's best to be readily accessible also.

I don't advocate breaking the law, but there is some discretion on both parts when hiking in a rural areas.

Hunt
09-14-2009, 4:33 PM
Thanks Decoligny for your insight.

I think first school of thought is best to be safe, second school of thought would be nicer for us but carries more risk. I myself fall into the first school of thought, and so for the purposes of this topic I would suggest if you are going backpacking in an area where you cannot LOC that you UOC instead.

I think the hunting license option is the way to go, actually it reminds me I need to get off my butt and get one myself!

get a hunting license, *jack* rabbits and coyotes are open season year round, check the area you are in make sure it is not a prohibited zone for carry or hunting and become familiar with hunting regs, plenty of wiggle room in all that to allow open or concealed carry, just know regs as we are in the Communist State and no such thing as a honest mistake or a cop giving a warning here. Break a rule you are fuc***

Hunt
09-14-2009, 4:35 PM
Big city boy or not, when hiking is meth/pot/ Mt. Lion country, you better have something to protect yourself. It's best to be readily accessible also.

I don't advocate breaking the law, but there is some discretion on both parts when hiking in a rural areas.

the sheriff out here told me they just took 7k plants out and the illegals escaped/ armed and were out in the bush

GuyW
09-14-2009, 4:56 PM
If you are in unincorporated territory you also can carry it openly and loaded.

No - merely being unincorporated is insufficient to allow loaded - it has to be within an area where shooting is allowed per ordinance. I can guarantee that shooting is not allowed in Rancho Santa Fe, etc....

.

GuyW
09-14-2009, 4:59 PM
And IIRC, LA hunting is shotgun only....

Since the majority of the burn area where he will be hiking is in Los Angeles County, and the majority of Los Angeles County is a no discharge unless hunting area, LOC in LA County is usually pretty much limited to those with a hunting license. If he is perchance hiking in San Bernardino County then he has a whole other set of County ordinances to deal with.

http://www.clerkoftheboard.co.riverside.ca.us/ords/500/514.10.pdf

Decoligny
09-14-2009, 5:05 PM
No - merely being unincorporated is insufficient to allow loaded - it has to be within an area where shooting is allowed per ordinance. I can guarantee that shooting is not allowed in Rancho Santa Fe, etc....

.

Again it needs to be stated, laws/ordinances do not allow anything. They only prohibit things. You will not find a single ordinance that say shooting is allowed between point A and point B. You will only find ordinances that say shooting is NOT ALLOWED between point A and point B.

Per PC 12031, Carrying a loaded firearm is illegal in incorporated cities, and in areas of unincorporated territory where discharge of a firearm is prohibited.

GuyW
09-14-2009, 5:30 PM
Yeah, brain fart - mere unincorporated is insufficient to carry loaded....

Again it needs to be stated, laws/ordinances do not allow anything. They only prohibit things. You will not find a single ordinance that say shooting is allowed between point A and point B. You will only find ordinances that say shooting is NOT ALLOWED between point A and point B.

Per PC 12031, Carrying a loaded firearm is illegal in incorporated cities, and in areas of unincorporated territory where discharge of a firearm is prohibited.

aermotor
09-15-2009, 12:43 AM
So I'm still a bit confused on the actual legality here... it seems like pretty much everyone but MuCamper says it's illegal to do so, and have posted reasons and PCs of why it's illegal... so, MudCamper, can you please elaborate on your post below and how exactly it's legal for me to do what I've stated?

Thanks very much everyone!

Lots of confusing answers in this thread.

If the "gun rug" is a fully enclosed locked case then you are perfectly legal to carry it concealed this way.

If you are in unincorporated territory you also can carry it openly and loaded. And pretty much everywhere you can open carry unloaded. (No I am not talking about city-UOC but actual carry in the country for practical use.)

I do not recommend using any hunting exemptions unless you are actually hunting. You could trip yourself up in your lie. (Like are you in a condor zone? Better not have lead ammo. etc.) There are plenty of legal ways to pack your firearm while hiking.

For detailed legal information about National Forrests, etc. see this post: Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457).

MudCamper
09-15-2009, 7:43 AM
No - merely being unincorporated is insufficient to allow loaded - it has to be within an area where shooting is allowed per ordinance. I can guarantee that shooting is not allowed in Rancho Santa Fe, etc....

Actually, you don't have to be in an area where shooting is allowed, but in an area where shooting is not prohibited. There must be a law on the book forbidding shooting in that area to trigger 12031(f). It was not my intention to get into all the sordid details of open carry in this discussion.

See this for full details on that subject: http://www.californiaopencarry.org/CaliforniaOpenCarry.pdf

And you literally took my quote out of context. I included a link to Firearms in Forests and Parks (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=186457) in my post, which goes into exacting detail on the subject.

bubbagump
09-15-2009, 7:56 AM
And IIRC, LA hunting is shotgun only....

Cite your source?

EDIT: My understanding is that if you are hunting in LA COUNTY (i.e. Angeles National Forest), rifle discharge is good to go as long as you are hunting.

MudCamper
09-15-2009, 8:02 AM
So I'm still a bit confused on the actual legality here... it seems like pretty much everyone but MuCamper says it's illegal to do so, and have posted reasons and PCs of why it's illegal... so, MudCamper, can you please elaborate on your post below and how exactly it's legal for me to do what I've stated?

OK, lets focus on the concealed aspect. We've been somewhat sidetracked with the loaded subject, but you state that you are not loading so it's not relevant.

12025 makes carrying a concealed handgun illegal. But there are exceptions. Among them:

12026.1 makes carrying it concealed in your vehicle legal, in the trunk, or a locked case in the vehicle.

12026.2 makes carrying it on your person legal when the firearms is in a "secure container which is fully enclosed and locked". But, you must be going to or from one of the 20 listed places in 12026.2.

So there are two ways you could get tripped up here. First, does your "gun rug" qualify as a "secure container which is fully enclosed and locked". Some might argue that it's not secure. I wouldn't. If it is fully enclosed, and locked, it qualifies, IMO.

Second, are you traveling to/from one of the places listed in 12026.2. This could be where you are in trouble, if you are just walking around in an area where you can't even shoot. But if you are hiking from say, your home, to your campsite, or to an area where you can shoot, or any other legal reason, then you're fine.

But this is getting really paranoid about it. How many people have been charged or convicted of 12025 while they were honoring the locked case requirements of 12026.2? My guess is zero.

aermotor
09-15-2009, 11:12 AM
Yea okay cool, that clears a lot up. Also, if stopped by a Ranger or anything, they can't just search all my stuff if I'm a normal hiker and not suspicious, that's getting into 4A issues isn't it? I guess even if they somehow tear my stuff apart and find a locked container they still cannot open it without a warrant or something, right?

Thanks for all your help thus far MudCamper.

Decoligny
09-15-2009, 11:41 AM
Yea okay cool, that clears a lot up. Also, if stopped by a Ranger or anything, they can't just search all my stuff if I'm a normal hiker and not suspicious, that's getting into 4A issues isn't it? I guess even if they somehow tear my stuff apart and find a locked container they still cannot open it without a warrant or something, right?

Thanks for all your help thus far MudCamper.

If perchance they went so far as to look in your pack, without Probable Cause that would be a violation of your 4th A rights.

If they happened to see you put the locked case into, or take the locked case out of your pack, and it was clearly a gun case, then PC 12031 (e) rules would apply if you were in a discharge prohibited area, and the ranger (LEO) could inspect the firearm to ensure that it was unloaded.