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View Full Version : City denying FFL based on "inventory"


general jacks
09-11-2009, 3:32 PM
Hey folks, I've been going through the process to obtain my FFL, but am doing so for a home-based business. I only intend to market to a select clientele and do special orders, transfers and some minor repair work.

I obtained a home business permit, fictitious name, COE, tax ID, Sellers permit, and handgun safety instructor. Purchased a safe, installed an alarm, including placing contacts in the safe and sent my FFL application.

I forwarded a cop to the Chief of Police and Sheriff (courtesy only) and was denied by the City for the following:

-Not in a commercial area
-Too close to a school.

The municipal code state they follow DOJ regulations. So the decision is based on their unwritten rules.

After talking with the Chief's office, they are hung up on having inventory in the home, although it would only be special order and transfers.

Any thoughts or suggestions, other than go commercial or give up.

Thanks

5shot
09-11-2009, 3:58 PM
I didn't think any FFL's were being issued for residences anymore. Most of the small FFL's I've dealt with recently have been running their out of small offices in their other businesses ( auto repair place, and construction co.). They told me nobody was getting FFL's operating out of houses anymore.

stormy_clothing
09-11-2009, 4:17 PM
I didn't think any FFL's were being issued for residences anymore. Most of the small FFL's I've dealt with recently have been running their out of small offices in their other businesses ( auto repair place, and construction co.). They told me nobody was getting FFL's operating out of houses anymore.

depends on where, my friend got approved for one in a mobile home in newport beach but sadly never did anything with it.

I think if you made it clear you were in the business of transferring goods only you would have a good shot that and giving deals to LEO's that really helps too I've heard.

USMG
09-11-2009, 4:23 PM
I have heard that in CA the are rarely issuing FFLs unless someone else gives theirs up. One in, one out. Has anyone seen any new gun shops opening up in the last year or so in CA?

blackberg
09-11-2009, 5:06 PM
I have heard that in CA the are rarely issuing FFLs unless someone else gives theirs up. One in, one out. Has anyone seen any new gun shops opening up in the last year or so in CA?

several have opened up in the last year
-bb

SDProtection
09-11-2009, 5:14 PM
Hey folks, I've been going through the process to obtain my FFL, but am doing so for a home-based business. I only intend to market to a select clientele and do special orders, transfers and some minor repair work.

I obtained a home business permit, fictitious name, COE, tax ID, Sellers permit, and handgun safety instructor. Purchased a safe, installed an alarm, including placing contacts in the safe and sent my FFL application.

I forwarded a cop to the Chief of Police and Sheriff (courtesy only) and was denied by the City for the following:

-Not in a commercial area
-Too close to a school.

The municipal code state they follow DOJ regulations. So the decision is based on their unwritten rules.

After talking with the Chief's office, they are hung up on having inventory in the home, although it would only be special order and transfers.

Any thoughts or suggestions, other than go commercial or give up.

Thanks

I don't know what part of CA you are in but that is how San Diego county handles FFL's. It is a no go for zoning purposes if you are in a residential area. You must be in a commercial zone or multi use business zone. No way around it....

MadRiverArms
09-11-2009, 5:15 PM
I'm home based in riverbank. Absolutely no issues getting it back in 2006. Just renewed to 2012:)

-G

eltee
09-11-2009, 5:19 PM
It is crazy in that a small dealer's "inventory" may be far less than a hunter or gun ethusiast's privately owned firearms inventory in the house next door. I might ask to see the chief again and explain that there will be no stocked inventory, primarily LE sales with discounts (don't overplay this hand), and offer to provide gun safety instruction for a local school or youth group. You'd provide assurances of total discretion (to keep neighbors from howling about an arms cache in the neighborhood or traffic / parking issues). Make it a policy that all firearms coming or going will be bagged or boxed, so people are not carrying exposed. Provide evidence of how you are going to arrange security of the premises. Best advice is to make friends with someone in the department or at city hall who can lobby on your behalf.

Good luck.

vinniesguns
09-12-2009, 10:54 AM
I got my for my Home this year, I had the hardesttime with the city also, for the same reason. But I measured out the distance to the school, I am more than 1000 feet. I got the city to accept my home business, based on the same reason you are trying. I have no inventory, I do special order only, and I have no open store front for walk in business, it is all by appointment only. Just keep trying and bugging them. Ask for a review in front of the council and bring examples of others in your area already in opperation. Took me a total of 8 months, but here I am.

tenpercentfirearms
09-12-2009, 11:22 AM
I don't remember getting permission from the local poilice. Once I received my business permit which stated I was properly zoned, I was good to go.

That sounds like the problem here, you might not be properly zoned. Even in my conservative town, they don't like home based businesses. It isn't about guns, it was about traffic and hours of operation.

general jacks
09-13-2009, 5:43 PM
Thanks all. I did get a permit for a home bases business based on the "no inventory" of special orders and transfers, at least the permit department understood that. I'm in public safety myself (fireman) and have made my case about no stocked inventory, but the PD is hanging their hat on that issue. The school zone, is another no-issue in my mind as the DOJ is very clear on the limitations of the area. The bigger issue I see, is that the PD has NO written policy regarding these reasons of refusal and I've met all other stipulations per the municipal code.

I'll keep trying and maybe go before city council, I was hoping to accomplish the task without a lot of argument with the PD.

Thanks again

eltee
09-13-2009, 6:25 PM
I don't remember getting permission from the local poilice. ....

On renewals, you have to send a copy of your renewal app to the local chief or sheriff and note same in your BATFE renewal form. Perhaps when you got your initial license it was not required. Also, there is no indication of signoff or approval, the renewal just tells you to send a copy.

general jacks
09-13-2009, 6:39 PM
On renewals, you have to send a copy of your renewal app to the local chief or sheriff and note same in your BATFE renewal form. Perhaps when you got your initial license it was not required. Also, there is no indication of signoff or approval, the renewal just tells you to send a copy.

One copy (of the 4) from the original application must be sent to the Chief of Police. I sent a courtesy copy to the Sheriff as well as I live close to some county pocket areas.

PolishMike
09-13-2009, 6:46 PM
One copy (of the 4) from the original application must be sent to the Chief of Police. I sent a courtesy copy to the Sheriff as well as I live close to some county pocket areas.

It has to be sent to them, but they do not need to sign off on it. It is just informative for it. They cannot tell you no.

What I don't understand is why your talking to the police... They have nothing to do with it. The city denied your business permit, right? If your not zoned commercial or multi why did you even start the process for a home?


HOWEVER, the criteria to get on the CLFD you need
"A license granted by the duly constituted licensing authority of any city, county or city and county"

Per 12071 this can be done by -
"
(6) A license granted by the duly constituted licensing authority
of any city, county, or city and county, shall be valid for not more
than one year from the date of issuance and shall be in one of the
following forms:
(A) In the form prescribed by the Attorney General.
(B) A regulatory or business license that states on its face
"Valid for Retail Sales of Firearms" and is endorsed by the signature
of the issuing authority.
(C) A letter from the duly constituted licensing authority having
primary jurisdiction for the applicant's intended business location
stating that the jurisdiction does not require any form of regulatory
or business license or does not otherwise restrict or regulate the
sale of firearms.
(7) Local licensing authorities may assess fees to recover their
full costs of processing applications for licenses.
(b) A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the
following prohibitions and requirements:
(1) (A) Except as provided in subparagraphs (B) and (C), the
business shall be conducted only in the buildings designated in the
license."



Honestly it does not look like you've done all your research.

general jacks
09-13-2009, 7:15 PM
I was doing everything required by the DOJ (See below) and even spoke with the firearms division regarding the duplicity of #4 and 5. The DOJ looked it up and advised me that the "City" permit was the standard and nothing needed from PD.

When I went to get the City business license, they advised me there was "another step" that required the PD approve it prior to the issuance of the license. (Nowhere is this written). Thus I am were I am now.

The very first step I did was go to the permit center and ensure this was possible, I had to talk with the supervisor and explain the "no inventory" philosophy. They concurred and provided with permit for "special order, transfer and repair of firearms from a home occupied business", and only then I proceeded with everything else.

What would be the issue if I was only going to gunsmith? The same FFL applies.

California firearms dealers must obtain and maintain the following:

1. A valid FFL,
2. A valid Seller's Permit issued by the State Board of Equalization,
3. A valid COE issued by the DOJ,
4. Any regulatory business license, or licenses, required by local government,
5. A local license granted by the duly constituted licensing authority, valid for one year from the date of issuance, and in one of the following forms:
1. In the form prescribed by the Attorney General;
2. A regulatory or business license that states on its face, "Valid for Retail Sales of Firearms" and endorsed by the signature of the issuing authority; or
3. A letter from the licensing authority stating that the jurisdiction does not require any form of regulatory or business license or does not otherwise restrict or regulate the sale of firearms. After obtaining the above licenses, an Application for Centralized List and appropriate fees are submitted to the DOJ. Upon approval of the application, the dealer will be given a CFD number and placed on the Centralized List of firearms dealers.
6. A listing on the DOJ Centralized List of Firearms Dealers.

djbooya
09-13-2009, 11:15 PM
Not that this will make you feel any better, but I'm in a similar situation as you. The difference is:

1) I obtained everything needed including the local business permit with "valid for retail sales" on it
2) after submitting again for my CFD I received a response that I needed to obtain a local permit from the PD in my area which is what I'm waiting on approval for now.
3) I'm not doing business at home, but in a commercial zone, but was confronted with similar stock questions when I applied for my local business permits (which in my area required a special "conditional use permit").

#2 wasn't a requirement for the feds, but is a requirement for CA DOJ, unfortunately. This may be what they're saying you need from your local PD. I sent in all the paperwork my PD needed last week and am waiting for their response. Fortunately, since they were part of my city permit inspection I shouldn't have to wait too long. Then I'm back to submit for my CFD and hopefully then will be in business.


I was doing everything required by the DOJ (See below) and even spoke with the firearms division regarding the duplicity of #4 and 5. The DOJ looked it up and advised me that the "City" permit was the standard and nothing needed from PD.

When I went to get the City business license, they advised me there was "another step" that required the PD approve it prior to the issuance of the license. (Nowhere is this written). Thus I am were I am now.

The very first step I did was go to the permit center and ensure this was possible, I had to talk with the supervisor and explain the "no inventory" philosophy. They concurred and provided with permit for "special order, transfer and repair of firearms from a home occupied business", and only then I proceeded with everything else.

What would be the issue if I was only going to gunsmith? The same FFL applies.

California firearms dealers must obtain and maintain the following:

1. A valid FFL,
2. A valid Seller's Permit issued by the State Board of Equalization,
3. A valid COE issued by the DOJ,
4. Any regulatory business license, or licenses, required by local government,
5. A local license granted by the duly constituted licensing authority, valid for one year from the date of issuance, and in one of the following forms:
1. In the form prescribed by the Attorney General;
2. A regulatory or business license that states on its face, "Valid for Retail Sales of Firearms" and endorsed by the signature of the issuing authority; or
3. A letter from the licensing authority stating that the jurisdiction does not require any form of regulatory or business license or does not otherwise restrict or regulate the sale of firearms. After obtaining the above licenses, an Application for Centralized List and appropriate fees are submitted to the DOJ. Upon approval of the application, the dealer will be given a CFD number and placed on the Centralized List of firearms dealers.
6. A listing on the DOJ Centralized List of Firearms Dealers.

Capt. Speirs
09-14-2009, 7:28 PM
I just got my CFD # today, and it is a home business way less than 1000 ft from a public school. The city was the only one that was a stickler on issuing me a permit. Spent quite a bit of time on the phone and in person to get the permit. Once I had the permit the Feds and The State had no issues with it. I even have a High Capacity Magazine permit.

CenterX
09-14-2009, 7:47 PM
Maybe they want you to hire a local attorney within their sphere of associates, then based on representation it all works out.
Is the PD supposed to ensure you have fort knox style security?
I gave up once I found out I'd have to get all 7 of my local neighbors to agree - most are modern day liberals so there ya go.
Good Luck

Capt. Speirs
09-14-2009, 8:03 PM
Maybe they want you to hire a local attorney within their sphere of associates, then based on representation it all works out.
Is the PD supposed to ensure you have fort knox style security?
I gave up once I found out I'd have to get all 7 of my local neighbors to agree - most are modern day liberals so there ya go.
Good Luck

That is discrimination; Amway business owners don't need neighbor’s approval. It is none of your neighbor’s business what you do. My city didn't make me do that. Sounds like an Obama tactic.

MrToyMan
09-15-2009, 9:44 AM
I am slao thinking of doing the exact same thing (getting a FFL, Special Order Only and Transfers) but my city has a condition for Home Occupation/Business " No customers may come to the home occupation residence. All in-person contact must take place at an off-site location such as the customer's residence or place of business.

Does this mean i am out of luck or is there another way to go around this requirement ?

JandJArmory
09-16-2009, 8:42 PM
Hey folks, I've been going through the process to obtain my FFL, but am doing so for a home-based business. I only intend to market to a select clientele and do special orders, transfers and some minor repair work.

I obtained a home business permit, fictitious name, COE, tax ID, Sellers permit, and handgun safety instructor. Purchased a safe, installed an alarm, including placing contacts in the safe and sent my FFL application.

I forwarded a cop to the Chief of Police and Sheriff (courtesy only) and was denied by the City for the following:

-Not in a commercial area
-Too close to a school.

The municipal code state they follow DOJ regulations. So the decision is based on their unwritten rules.

After talking with the Chief's office, they are hung up on having inventory in the home, although it would only be special order and transfers.

Any thoughts or suggestions, other than go commercial or give up.

Thanks

Talk to CAPT Spears. He got one for his home. His post is in New in the FFL forum. Check it out ask him. He knows the ropes.

JandJArmory
09-16-2009, 8:46 PM
I don't remember getting permission from the local poilice. Once I received my business permit which stated I was properly zoned, I was good to go.

That sounds like the problem here, you might not be properly zoned. Even in my conservative town, they don't like home based businesses. It isn't about guns, it was about traffic and hours of operation.

Its up to the city. We needed to get a licence from Santa Ana PD to sell firearms in the city. One of the detectives comes out and looks at your FFL and CFD# and issues a permit. There is cost involved and it needs to be renewed every year.

Its up to the city that your FFL is in if they require it. So your PD may not require it and is why you didnt need to go through that process.