View Full Version : Christian Science Monitor - attitudes: OC national vs. UOC California

09-10-2009, 6:46 PM

Patrik Jonsson of the Christian Science Monitor suggests that open carry nationally recognizes the familiarity with guns in most of the US.

The current whoop-te-do in California probably is a commentary on Californian's lack of familiarity with citizens with guns.


09-10-2009, 7:15 PM
Fascinating comment in the article, from Brannon Denning (www.brannondenning.com): "In some ways, [gun-control proponents] have lost, and ... the only people who really think [these incidents] are deviant are people whose whole world view is that ordinary, law-abiding citizens shouldn't have a reason to carry guns," he says. (The article persists in mis-spelling Brannon as 'Brandon'.)

Sadly, the gun control proponents in California are unaware that they have lost, a last bastion of willful ignorance.

09-10-2009, 7:23 PM
Christian science monitor seems to in the past inject its anti gun views into their articles. For anti gun supporters California is one of the last strong holds they have left.... for now.:43:

09-10-2009, 7:27 PM
In states with RKBA in their State Constitutions, LOC is going to end up being quite common and really nothing serious. It's the calmer, gentler version of the OC movement and I applaud it (and have participated from time to time.)

Here in CA, well, we still have some work to do first...


Shotgun Man
09-10-2009, 7:28 PM
Christian science monitor seems to in the past inject its anti gun views into their articles. For anti gun supporters California is one of the last strong holds they have left.... for now.:43:

From reading the CSM article, it is not at all clear to me that they have an anti agenda.

09-11-2009, 1:56 AM
For those that do have CCW permits, CA has few of the issues many states with more prevalent CCW. We have few or no restrictions on carrying. Few signs that forbid it, etc. Most people in most places that see someone carrying assume it is legal carrying no matter who is doing it.

09-11-2009, 8:46 AM
Got my Gun Week for Sept 15, 2009 and the supra-headline on the front page is "Open carry debate moves to front page". Their web page hasn't been updated to show it yet, but I expect it will catch up Real Soon Now.


09-11-2009, 10:44 AM
A majority of the other states are enjoying their freedom, and we're stuck in the dark ages and our right to arms is restricted like serfs. That's just peachy. :rolleyes:

02-27-2010, 4:58 PM
From reading the CSM article, it is not at all clear to me that they have an anti agenda.

Agreed - check out this article:


Guns at Starbucks? Pushing the right to bear arms in public
Gun owners in California have been wearing their handguns in coffee shops and restaurants. The guns are unloaded and legal, but some citizens and police departments are wary.

By Michael B. Farrell Staff writer / February 27, 2010

San Francisco
Small groups of armed Californians have been turning up at cafes and coffee shops with handguns holstered to their belts to raise awareness about gun rights and what they call unfair limits on concealed weapon permits.

The loosely organized “Bay Area Open Carry Movement” will gather in the Presidio, a national park in San Francisco, on Saturday, just days after a new law took effect allowing weapons to be carried in national parks and wildlife refuges.

David LaTour, a student at San Jose State University, has been carrying his Springfield XD 9mm handgun on his hip for about a month now and plans on attending the event, in which gun rights advocates will be picking up trash in the park and, they hope, talking to anyone interested in state gun laws.

California allows its citizens to openly display and carry unloaded weapons without a permit, but many gun advocates complain that the state is too restrictive when it comes to issuing licenses to carry concealed weapons.

“I looked into concealed carry permits, but unless you’re well-connected it’s impossible to obtain,” says Mr. LaTour. However, he says, “I personally prefer open carry because of the visual deterrent.” (Monitor report: “Cities’ gun restrictions begin to topple”)

Carrying unloaded guns is legal

Safety is the No. 1 reason that many open carry advocates give for displaying their weapons. While they can’t legally carry loaded guns, they can have ammunition as long as it’s not attached to their weapons.

“You can have a functioning loaded weapon in two seconds,” says LaTour.

While the gun owner meet-ups around the Bay Area have been raising awareness about the state’s gun laws, they have also been raising eyebrows. After the groups met at Peet’s Coffee and Tea and the California Pizza Kitchen, both banned weapons from their premises.

Starbucks has also been a favorite spot for open carry groups, prompting the anti-gun violence group the Brady Campaign to launch a petition to convince the coffee chain to ban guns from its shops.

“There is a growing ‘open carry’ movement among gun activists, who seek to make a political statement by gathering in coffee shops, restaurants and other public locations with their guns openly on display,” the Brady Campaign said in a statement. “Given the absence of meaningful regulation of open carry in the vast majority of states, more and more Americans will be faced with the intimidation and danger of confronting guns in public places.”

So far Starbucks hasn’t kicked out its gun-carrying customers, prompting praise from open carry advocates.

Police departments uneasy

Bay Area police department have also expressed concern about the growing open carry movement. (Monitor report: "Ft. Hood rampage raises questions about gun control")

In a September 2009 memo to his officers, Sunnyvale, Calif., Deputy Police Chief Mark Stivers wrote, “To be very frank, I do not like the fact people can carry an unloaded gun in a holster in plain view in public. However the law says they can and we uphold the law.”

Nathan Wolanyk, an open carry advocate from San Diego, says the movement is as much about informing the public as it is about educating police departments who, he says, are often unaware of the unloaded open carry law.

Deputy Chief Stivers cautioned his officers, who are allowed to inspect unconcealed weapons to ensure they are unloaded, adhere to the law because open carry proponents “may want to provoke an incident” to bring a law suit against the city.

But Mr. Wolanyk and others say their movement is largely about changing perceptions about gun ownership.

“If all you see are guns in the media used in a violent manner, that’s your perception of guns,” he says. “When we’re out in public with them, we’re interacting with the public in a very nice manner. We’re showing that these are tools that are used for self defense.”


02-27-2010, 5:02 PM
Another Christian Science Monitor article that doesn't appear to be overly anti-gun, surprisingly:


More guns equal more crime? Not in 2009, FBI crime report shows.
FBI's latest crime report, for the first half of 2009, shows America is a less violent place even though ownership of guns has surged. Deterrent effect may have a role, but others see no correlation.

By Patrik Jonsson Staff writer / December 23, 2009

The oft-cited credo that more guns equal more crime is being tested by facts on the ground this year: Even as gun ownership has surged in the US in the past year, violent crime, including murder and robbery, has dropped steeply.

Add to that the fact that many experts had predicted higher crime rates as the US grinds through a difficult recession, and the discrepancy has advocates on both sides of the Second Amendment debate rushing to their ramparts.

After several years of crime rates holding relatively steady, the FBI is reporting that violent crimes – including gun crimes – dropped dramatically in the first six months of 2009, with murder down 10 percent across the US as a whole.

Concurrently, the FBI reports that gun sales – especially of assault-style rifles and handguns, two main targets of gun-control groups – are up at least 12 percent nationally since the election of President Obama, a dramatic run on guns prompted in part by so-far-unwarranted fears that Democrats in Congress and the White House will curtail gun rights and carve apart the Second Amendment.

Pro-gun groups jumped at the FBI report, saying it disproves a long-running theory posited by gun-control groups and many in the mainstream media that gun ownership spawns crime and violence. “Anti-gunners have lost another one of their baseless arguments,” Alan Gottlieb, founder of the Second Amendment Foundation, told the Examiner's Dave Workman.

Some gun-control groups have long sought to establish gun ownership as a health issue, which would expose purchasers to the kind of regulation now imposed on prescription drugs and alcohol. That view embodies the idea that mere exposure to guns makes people more violent.

But more pragmatically, groups like the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence have mostly targeted illegal sales and gun-show loopholes as the primary problem in America’s gun culture. They say such loopholes and lax enforcement allow violent criminals to get their hands on used, stolen, and inexpensive guns. “The guns that cause the worst problems in this country are not selling for very high prices,” Brady Campaign spokesman Peter Hamm has said.

No correlation, researchers say
As advocates on both sides keep score, what’s the rest of America to think as they weigh the relative crime risks – and statistics – in their own neighborhoods?

The debate over whether guns spur or deter crime has been under way for decades. So far, research has come out with, in essence, a net-zero correlation between gun sales and crime rates. More likely factors for the crime rate decline have to do with Americans hunkering down, spending less time out on the town with cash in their pockets and more time at home with the porch lights on, experts say. So-called "smart policing" that focuses specifically on repeat offenders and troubled areas could also be playing a role, as could extended unemployment benefits that staved off desperation.

“We can absolutely draw a fact-based conclusion about [whether there’s a correlation between declining crime rates and increasing gun ownership], and the answer is no,” says David Kennedy, director of the Center for Crime Prevention and Control in New York. “There are very consistent findings that the acquisition and obtaining of carry permits by ordinary law-abiding people has either no or very little impact on the crime rate.”

He finds more evidence in the FBI’s new report, which shows crimes declining not only across a variety of violent and nonviolent crime classifications, but also in both gun-resistant and gun-friendly corners of the country.

“When you’re seeing declines [in violent crime] both in cities like Atlanta, which is in a relatively gun-friendly state, and in places like New York City, where it is essentially impossible for ordinary folks to acquire and carry especially handguns, then it’s not the guns that are driving the [statistics],” Mr. Kennedy says.

A possible deterrent effect?
But one prominent gun rights researcher, Gary Kleck, a criminologist at Florida State University in Tallahassee, leaves the door open to the idea that news of booming gun sales could have a deterrent effect on violent criminals.

“It’s possible that criminals hear about lots of people buying guns, and then you can see a plausible mechanism, that conceivably could have produced a reduction in murder,” says Professor Kleck. “It’s all a matter of perception, not reality, for prospective murderers."

Note in both articles I've just posted, they end with a quote from someone who is pro-gun. Interesting.


02-27-2010, 10:40 PM
All of those articles seemed pretty unbiased to me...

02-28-2010, 2:08 AM
In states with RKBA in their State Constitutions, LOC is going to end up being quite common and really nothing serious. It's the calmer, gentler version of the OC movement and I applaud it (and have participated from time to time.)


The Roanoke Times might disagree. :D

Mulay El Raisuli
02-28-2010, 4:31 AM
Agreed - check out this article:



I'm happy to see our very own Pull-n-shoot25 being quoted in this one.

THe Raisuli

02-28-2010, 2:36 PM
I think my quote could have come out a little better but overall neither the article nor the reporter were anti.