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View Full Version : Housecalls? PPT related.


eltee
09-09-2009, 9:59 PM
Person wants to sell off part of a personal gun collection to one buyer. Gun owner (seller) wants an FFL to go to the home, do the paperwork and have the dealer take all the sold guns and hold them for the obligatory waiting periods. Essentially using the location of the owner as a temporary sales location under the auspices of an FFL. The guns the buyer does not want will stay with the current legal owner. The seller is willing to pay the FFL an extra fee for this service.

1. Can the FFL do this, essentially make a housecall and transact there?
2. Can the FFL accept the fee for the housecall w/o getting jammed up over the $35.00 PPT fee limit?
3. Can making photocopies of ID's using the owner's scanner/copier/printer suffice for the DROS?

Sounds almost like being a transfer dealer at a gunshow...sort of.

kemasa
09-10-2009, 7:29 AM
You can only do business at your established location or at gun shows. I have to wonder why the seller would not take them to a FFL. I would only take part in this if you want to lose your license and perhaps go to jail. You can confirm this with the CA DOJ & BATF. You would be doing business at a location for which you are not licensed.

Anytime a transfer is started, the firearms need to be in the possession of the FFL, so that aspect is normal and needed.

So, the summary answer is NO.

eltee
09-10-2009, 5:09 PM
Seemed pretty straight forward. Selling off part of an estate, furniture, personal stuff, etc. including firearms (quality, old). Essentially a high end garage sale in a ritzy house. People handling the sales wanted a gun dealer on premise to handle firearms transactions, take any sold guns back to the dealer's shop to hold for the 10 days post DROS. The buyers would have to pick the firearms up at the shop. Instead of having all the guns shipped over to a dealer without any confirmed sales, they want to do it this way.

How do they handle these types of sales when, for example, these big auction houses auction off huge collections? Don't they often bring in an FFL to take care of the paperwork? I think this is what the inspiration was for this idea.

Certainly not worth any commission if loss of licensing and potential criminal penalties would result.

kemasa
09-10-2009, 6:40 PM
You can sell the firearms elsewhere (Internet, forums, etc.), but you can't do the paperwork remotely, except at a gunshow. No, you can't just call it a gunshow and do the paperwork.

So, they can see the firearms and decide to buy them. They can even pay for them, but then everyone needs to go to the FFL's location and do the paperwork.

Confirm this with the CA DOJ & BATF if you like. Yes, it would be easier to sell firearms out of the trunk of your car (heard of a guy who did that), but it is just not legal.

freonr22
09-10-2009, 6:43 PM
what is the legal definition of a "gun show"?

halifax
09-10-2009, 6:54 PM
Person wants to sell off part of a personal gun collection to one buyer. Gun owner (seller) wants an FFL to go to the home, do the paperwork and have the dealer take all the sold guns and hold them for the obligatory waiting periods. Essentially using the location of the owner as a temporary sales location under the auspices of an FFL. The guns the buyer does not want will stay with the current legal owner. The seller is willing to pay the FFL an extra fee for this service.

1. Can the FFL do this, essentially make a housecall and transact there?
2. Can the FFL accept the fee for the housecall w/o getting jammed up over the $35.00 PPT fee limit?
3. Can making photocopies of ID's using the owner's scanner/copier/printer suffice for the DROS?

Sounds almost like being a transfer dealer at a gunshow...sort of.

I had a similar situation. A gun club member passed and his widow wanted to hold a sale at the gun club. I called the DOJ and was told I could accept the firearms from the widow at the gun club but I would need to do the actual transfer at my place of business. The widow collected the money and handed the guns to me. I then arranged an appointment for the buyer and seller to meet at my place to do the transfer.

I don't know if this helps you or not.

kemasa
09-10-2009, 6:55 PM
12071
(1) (A) Except as provided in subparagraphs (B) and (C), the
business shall be conducted only in the buildings designated in the
license.
(B) A person licensed pursuant to subdivision (a) may take
possession of firearms and commence preparation of registers for the
sale, delivery, or transfer of firearms at gun shows or events, as
defined in Section 178.100 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal
Regulations, or its successor, if the gun show or event is not
conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. A person conducting
business pursuant to this subparagraph shall be entitled to conduct
business as authorized herein at any gun show or event in the state
without regard to the jurisdiction within this state that issued the
license pursuant to subdivision (a), provided the person complies
with (i) all applicable laws, including, but not limited to, the
waiting period specified in subparagraph (A) of paragraph (3), and
(ii) all applicable local laws, regulations, and fees, if any.
A person conducting business pursuant to this subparagraph shall
publicly display his or her license issued pursuant to subdivision
(a), or a facsimile thereof, at any gun show or event, as specified
in this subparagraph.
(C) A person licensed pursuant to subdivision (a) may engage in
the sale and transfer of firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or
other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person, at events
specified in subdivision (g) of Section 12078, subject to the
prohibitions and restrictions contained in that subdivision.
A person licensed pursuant to subdivision (a) also may accept
delivery of firearms other than pistols, revolvers, or other firearms
capable of being concealed upon the person, outside the building
designated in the license, provided the firearm is being donated for
the purpose of sale or transfer at an auction or similar event
specified in subdivision (g) of Section 12078.

See 12071.1 and 12071.4 for some of the details.

kemasa
09-10-2009, 6:58 PM
The seller can come in and sign the DROS worksheets so that they don't have to come in each time a buyer comes in (like a consignment sale). You can do everything except the paperwork and firearm delivery elsewhere.

Librarian
09-10-2009, 7:24 PM
what is the legal definition of a "gun show"?

PC 12071 says (to repeat part of what kemasa posted)(b)A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the following prohibitions and requirements:

(1)(A)Except as provided in subparagraphs (B) and (C), the business shall be conducted only in the buildings designated in the license.

(B)A person licensed pursuant to subdivision (a) may take possession of firearms and commence preparation of registers for the sale, delivery, or transfer of firearms at gun shows or events, as defined in Section 478.100 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor, if the gun show or event is not conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. A person conducting business pursuant to this subparagraph shall be entitled to conduct business as authorized herein at any gun show or event in the state without regard to the jurisdiction within this state that issued the license pursuant to subdivision (a), provided the person complies with (i) all applicable laws, including, but not limited to, the waiting period specified in subparagraph (A) of paragraph (3), and (ii) all applicable local laws, regulations, and fees, if any.

Code of Federal Regulations, 27 CFR 478.100 (http://www.findlaw.com/casecode/cfr.html#dirsearch2) (links to GPO evaporate - this one goes to a Findlaw Search page. Also fixed CFR reference)
(b) A gun show or an event is a function sponsored by any national,
State, or local organization, devoted to the collection, competitive
use, or other sporting use of firearms, or an organization or
association that sponsors functions devoted to the collection,
competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms in the community.
Which leaves me wondering about commercial sponsors,but I suppose they manage to meet one of those criteria...

kemasa
09-11-2009, 9:40 AM
Also look at some of the requirements, such as providing information as to who is renting tables.