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View Full Version : Marijuana growers...angle for shall issue?


cheese
09-09-2009, 12:45 PM
With all the marijuana growing going on in this state it would seem that fearing for your life when in rural areas is a legitimate concern. Im aware that, for the most part, you can carry when your hunting and fishing but not everyone participates in these activities but also enjoy spending time in forrested areas where alot of the growing is going on. Even then there are gray areas when it comes to who owns what roads, govt buildings, wildlife refuges, and what not.
I think its pretty well accepted that many of these growers are willing to hurt others to protect their crop.
So if the main cash crop in CA is marijuana and much of is grown on public property by dangerous people it doesnt seem to be a stretch that citizens should be able to proptect their selves in these areas. A lot of these areas you dont get cell phone reception so calling leo officers isnt always an option.
Is this a possible option for making this state "shall issue"?
Sorry if this has been covered but i am seeing/hearing more stories like this.

Merle
09-09-2009, 12:51 PM
I like the angle but do not think it's enough especially for folks in mostly urban counties(e.g. Santa Clara versus El Dorado)

"70% of the marijuana cultivated in the United States comes out of California. About 80% in that is grown on public lands and the majority of that is on National Forest Service lands." -- http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/podcasts/marijuana/transcript5.php

Potentially good cause, but may introduce a clause to a CCW.

Super Spy
09-09-2009, 12:53 PM
You may have a point....growers may shoot at you....just stay out of the pot fields....

LesGrossman41510
09-09-2009, 12:58 PM
I think we should be able to organize militia teams and invade the mountains and kick all of them out.

Since the FS got so much of their funds cut, there is barely anyone patrolling the hills. 2a'ers should be able to do their job instead, kinda like the border patrols.

GrizzlyGuy
09-09-2009, 1:01 PM
If I get around to applying for a CCW, I definitely plan to list that in my good cause statement.

This year, they pulled 8,144 plants from our ranch in Mendocino county and confiscated 2 guns. Last year they got a few thousand plants, but no guns. We don't even go in that area of the property, armed or not, until law enforcement does their annual garden sweep.

But I don't have to mention that we don't go out there pre-sweep on my CCW application, right? :o

cheese
09-09-2009, 1:05 PM
This is a real problem and i dont think we know the extent. You hear about hunters/hikers going missing right in the middle of these areas and you cant help but think that they fell victims to pot growers.
We pay for these lands to be maintaned....for what? for some crazy people to make millions in drug money off our land and resources.
No one should be afraid of using public land legally.

Jak1
09-09-2009, 1:10 PM
Depending on where you are, taking on the growers might be biting off more than you can chew. It sucks having to watch where you are going and what time of year it is just so you don't get shot or step on a booby trap. These people are "taking" public land away from everyone.

scc1909
09-09-2009, 1:10 PM
I think we'd be better off legalizing and taxing pot than continuing a losing and expensive battle to outlaw it. Prohibition didn't work back in the 20's, and it's not working now.

cheese
09-09-2009, 1:22 PM
I think we'd be better off legalizing and taxing pot than continuing a losing and expensive battle to outlaw it. Prohibition didn't work back in the 20's, and it's not working now.
I agree but this is the 2a forum and i want my ccw:chris:

bwiese
09-09-2009, 1:27 PM
Some North NorCal sheriffs are bought & paid for by MJ growers.
There's not much else in the economy up there except convenience stores.

Glock22Fan
09-09-2009, 1:28 PM
I think that the problem with this is that the areas in which it might fly are probably the areas where it is fairly easy to get a CCW without it, and the areas that are hard to get a CCW won't give a s**t where you go in your spare time.

cheese
09-09-2009, 1:29 PM
Obviously, these guys have to get their drugs out of the forrest. If youve spent anytime trying to find public areas to hunt you realize that many times you are on county/private roads where you cant concealed carry. But at the same time the growers are most vulnerable at these time because they have all their almost finished product in one area and you can probably smell them from far away. So if they are expecting to get robbed for their product this would be the time and their most likely to be armed at this point. Say you pass them and they think that you know something.....maybe it would be in their best interest to get rid of you.
I know there are a lot of what ifs but its obvious that even if they are in n.f. land where you can carry, to get out they are passing through areas where you cant carry.

scc1909
09-09-2009, 1:29 PM
Oh...well in that case, do carry on! :D

Hoop
09-09-2009, 1:29 PM
Unless you have 1) had documented run-ins with people growing illicit Marijuana on your property or 2) have a very shall-issue minded Sheriff I don't think that would fly as good cause.

cheese
09-09-2009, 1:30 PM
Some North NorCal sheriffs are bought & paid for by MJ growers.
There's not much else in the economy up there except convenience stores.

I wasnt going to bring this up but i have heard this many times. Also forrest workers and dfg

I heard of one story where the sheriffs dpt only had one patrol car that needed to be replaced and they didnt have the funds so all the pot farmers figured it would be a good investment to buy them one. I believe this was Va though

GrizzlyGuy
09-09-2009, 1:30 PM
No one should be afraid of using public land legally.

Yes, and it really ticks me off that my family can't even use our own *private land* legally for about half the year (or less if the helicopters show up early like this year).

Legalize it and tax it. Problem solved. In the meantime, everyone write 'for defense against armed, illegal pot growers' in your CCW app. Even urban people take rural vacations, right? :)

cheese
09-09-2009, 1:57 PM
I think that the problem with this is that the areas in which it might fly are probably the areas where it is fairly easy to get a CCW without it, and the areas that are hard to get a CCW won't give a s**t where you go in your spare time.

I agree but i thought this may possible open up shall issue for the whole state(wishful thinking). Possibly a lawsuit from someone who has documented encounters with illegal growers but was denied a ccw:confused:

Glock22Fan
09-09-2009, 2:02 PM
I agree but i thought this may possible open up shall issue for the whole state(wishful thinking). Possibly a lawsuit from someone who has documented encounters with illegal growers but was denied a ccw:confused:

Law enforcement has no liability for your encounters with illegal growers, so a lawsuit won't start to fly, I'm afraid.

Super Spy
09-09-2009, 2:05 PM
Some North NorCal sheriffs are bought & paid for by MJ growers.
There's not much else in the economy up there except convenience stores.

and the convenience stores sell papers and lighters, thus completing the circle.......

cheese
09-09-2009, 2:20 PM
Law enforcement has no liability for your encounters with illegal growers, so a lawsuit won't start to fly, I'm afraid.

Damn, thats bad. Nothing is done to stop the growers(only inconvenience them) but at the same time laws are setup to inflate the price of drugs and they can do it on public land. It really sounds like a win win for the growers. No wonder our public land is over run with marijuana. Maybe i should start growing pot:rolleyes:

cmonk518
09-09-2009, 3:04 PM
In all honesty, if you look at the major areas where illegal crops are being grown, esp in Shasta County, Humboldt, etc. those counties are fairly easy to obtain CCW permits anyways, so its really not that big of deal. You just have to worry about federal and national parks and forests, I think they have varying carry laws but if you are in a state park, you should be more than good to go.

But also, if would be best to ask local park rangers and sheriffs where they are most likely located and at least try your best to stay out of those areas. No matter how beautiful they may be, its not worth your life. If they are willing to shoot at LEO and federal agents, I'm more than sure they'd shoot at you too. That's the worse ever would be to accidentally stumble on acres and acres of land and they find you. First thing that would come to their mind is,"Do we let this guy go and risk getting ratted out on??" You don't want that to happen. No matter how good you are with a pistol or fighting handgun, even special forces and seals know its suicidal to go up against drug cartels with shotguns and long rifles.

scc1909
09-09-2009, 3:31 PM
If they are willing to shoot at LEO and federal agents, I'm more than sure they'd shoot at you too.
Has this actually happened in California? I ask because I spent about a third of my AF career in JTF counter drugs and never even heard of pot growers shooting at LEOs.

Other druggies higher up in the food chain, yes, but not growers. Just curious.

JDay
09-09-2009, 4:05 PM
If I get around to applying for a CCW, I definitely plan to list that in my good cause statement.

This year, they pulled 8,144 plants from our ranch in Mendocino county and confiscated 2 guns. Last year they got a few thousand plants, but no guns. We don't even go in that area of the property, armed or not, until law enforcement does their annual garden sweep.

But I don't have to mention that we don't go out there pre-sweep on my CCW application, right? :o

Doesn't matter, you can CCW on your property if you wish.

cheese
09-09-2009, 5:44 PM
In all honesty, if you look at the major areas where illegal crops are being grown, esp in Shasta County, Humboldt, etc. those counties are fairly easy to obtain CCW permits anyways, so its really not that big of deal. You just have to worry about federal and national parks and forests, I think they have varying carry laws but if you are in a state park, you should be more than good to go.

But also, if would be best to ask local park rangers and sheriffs where they are most likely located and at least try your best to stay out of those areas. No matter how beautiful they may be, its not worth your life. If they are willing to shoot at LEO and federal agents, I'm more than sure they'd shoot at you too. That's the worse ever would be to accidentally stumble on acres and acres of land and they find you. First thing that would come to their mind is,"Do we let this guy go and risk getting ratted out on??" You don't want that to happen. No matter how good you are with a pistol or fighting handgun, even special forces and seals know its suicidal to go up against drug cartels with shotguns and long rifles.

Yeah a lot of rural counties are much easier to get a ccw in but at the same time people from other counties frequent these areas as well.
Also theses areas are so vast i have a hard time believing that leo could point you in the direction of the growers. The best they could probably do is say stay away from water sources and north and south facing hills....i think that would mean stay away from any forrested areas haha.
And yeah it would be stupid to try and have a gun fight in the middle of no where. Im sure any one that qualified for a ccw is sensible enough to do everything they could to stay out of a situation like that, short of not going in the woods at all.

cheese
09-09-2009, 5:48 PM
Has this actually happened in California? I ask because I spent about a third of my AF career in JTF counter drugs and never even heard of pot growers shooting at LEOs.

Other druggies higher up in the food chain, yes, but not growers. Just curious.

According to many reports its the people higher up in the food chain that are now growing, or atleast funding and profiting, marijuana in CA. If this is true then im sure they are capable of shooting at leo's

Justin562
09-09-2009, 5:50 PM
Just do get caught trying to steal there crops and you'll be fine

Hunt
09-09-2009, 6:07 PM
I wish the DEA gave a finders fee for grow plots

GrizzlyGuy
09-09-2009, 7:58 PM
Has this actually happened in California? I ask because I spent about a third of my AF career in JTF counter drugs and never even heard of pot growers shooting at LEOs.

Offhand, I canít think of any cases. There have been cases where they have shot at non-LEOs, and I think there were at least a few killings. The killings may have been grower/raider affairs (bad guy against bad guy), I canít remember the details.

Doesn't matter, you can CCW on your property if you wish.

Yes, and I actually donít wish to because Iíd be so outgunned it wouldnít even be funny. I donít even go into that area (pre-raid) with my carbine.

But given that our family rats these guys out to the cops every year, I think I could make a case for concealed carry to defend against retaliation when out in public. ;-)

Also theses areas are so vast i have a hard time believing that leo could point you in the direction of the growers. The best they could probably do is say stay away from water sources and north and south facing hills....

Thatís about it. Water is the key. Last year on our place, they planted down hill from a spring and did a gravity feed system. This year, when they did 8,000+ plants, they just laid them out in and near an old logging landing next to a stream. They were apparently bucketing the water into their irrigation system.

Just do get caught trying to steal there crops and you'll be fine

That was true in the old days (70ís and 80ís) when most of the growers were locals just trying to make a living. The rule back then was to just keep walking by and youíd be fine. Now that organized crime (mostly Mexican gangs) runs most of the big gardens, itís a lot more scary:

http://www.cannabisnews.org/united-states-cannabis-news/mexican-growers-having-big-pot-year-in-state/

Some people mistakenly think that these gardens are visible from a distance and you can avoid them. Many arenít visible until you come through some brush and wham, there it is. My dad used to stumble into them all the time when he was out surveying.

Later in the season, you can actually smell the gardens if you know the scent and are downwind.

I wish the DEA gave a finders fee for grow plots

Wouldnít that be sweet. Our ranchís state property taxes paid by the federal government year after year! :D

scc1909
09-09-2009, 8:20 PM
Offhand, I canít think of any cases. There have been cases where they have shot at non-LEOs, and I think there were at least a few killings. The killings may have been grower/raider affairs (bad guy against bad guy), I canít remember the details.
Yep, lots of bad-guy-on-bad-guy shootings for raids and such. That's why the growers are armed. If the Law shows up they just high tail it. If another druggie raider shows up, they fight.

If you stumble into their grow plot, they can't tell you from a raider. :(

Now that organized crime (mostly Mexican gangs) runs most of the big gardens, itís a lot more scary:

http://www.cannabisnews.org/united-states-cannabis-news/mexican-growers-having-big-pot-year-in-state/
FTFA...
Legalization is not the solution, Johnson said, given that most of the pot is being grown illegally on public parkland by foreign citizens who cannot be taxed.
Bullsh*t! If it were legal it would cost a fraction to grow compared to what the druggies are getting for it now. AND the state would get at least some revenue from its sales. That comment from Johnson is pure FUD.

radioactivelego
09-09-2009, 9:11 PM
Medical Marijuana seems like a good cause for some collective owners in Los Angeles.

yellowfin
09-09-2009, 9:33 PM
Law enforcement has no liability for your encounters with illegal growers, so a lawsuit won't start to fly, I'm afraid. And more to the point, they have no liability for injury incurred by you if they don't issue a CCW. THAT provision of the law needs to be removed if at all possible. Santa Clara, LA, SF, etc. sheriffs and police chiefs need to be completely and infinitely liable for every robbery, rape, carjacking, and murder committed against those they disarm.

GW
09-09-2009, 11:28 PM
I think we'd be better off legalizing and taxing pot than continuing a losing and expensive battle to outlaw it. Prohibition didn't work back in the 20's, and it's not working now.

Amen brother The revenue saved by not policing plus the revenue earned by taxing it would pay off the deficit here in about 2 weeks.

nick
09-10-2009, 12:41 AM
Legalize it and tax it. Problem solved. In the meantime, everyone write 'for defense against armed, illegal pot growers' in your CCW app. Even urban people take rural vacations, right? :)

Yep. I found two pot farms when hiking in, of all places, L.A. National Forest a few years back. After the second time I've decided that I won't go there unarmed again. I didn't own guns back then, so it took a few years to return :)

k1dude
09-10-2009, 1:03 AM
Amen brother The revenue saved by not policing plus the revenue earned by taxing it would pay off the deficit here in about 2 weeks.

There won't be any revenue earned if it becomes legal. Users will just grow their own. Cigarettes are so highly taxed now it's ridiculous. But growing your own tobacco isn't an option. It is an option with pot. Politicians don't understand that tax revenue is not a static situation. People will change their behavior to avoid taxes. There is no cash cow in legalizing dope.

mtsul
09-10-2009, 2:08 AM
+1 for Bill Wiese

scc1909
09-10-2009, 6:53 AM
There won't be any revenue earned if it becomes legal. Users will just grow their own. Cigarettes are so highly taxed now it's ridiculous. But growing your own tobacco isn't an option. It is an option with pot. Politicians don't understand that tax revenue is not a static situation. People will change their behavior to avoid taxes. There is no cash cow in legalizing dope.
While I concede that revenues may not be anything like the $1 billion claimed in AB390, you have a steep hill to climb proving that it won't raise "any revenue". The only real question is how much will AB390 raise if it is passed? We don't know the answer to that question yet, but when one factors in the costs of enforcement, incarceration and lost productivity under today's legal status, it would be substantial.

Your comment that "growing your own tobacco isn't an option" is also wide of the mark. Growing one's own tobacco is perfectly legal and there is a large and enthusiastic cadre of hobby tobacco growers in this country. Google 'tobacco seeds' for more than 3 million hits, including multiple sources of seed packages for about two bucks.

Yes, lots of folks will grow their own marijuana, just as lots of folks grow their own tomatoes and other fruits and veggies, brew their own beer and vint their own wine. Still, that option doesn't stop the vast majority of us from buying those items at the store, and it will be the same for marijuana if it is ever legalized. Most folks will simply fork over a $10 bill for a pack of "Mendocino Gold" rather than go to all the trouble of growing their own, even though it isn't any tougher than growing your own tomatoes. And that will generate revenues.

Mulay El Raisuli
09-10-2009, 8:39 AM
There won't be any revenue earned if it becomes legal. Users will just grow their own. Cigarettes are so highly taxed now it's ridiculous. But growing your own tobacco isn't an option. It is an option with pot. Politicians don't understand that tax revenue is not a static situation. People will change their behavior to avoid taxes. There is no cash cow in legalizing dope.



In addition to what scc1909 said, there will still be a sort of cash cow with legalization; we won't be wasting BILLIONS of tax dollars to house & feed (in prison) those who toke.

If the same reasoning were applied to all other illegal drugs, the savings would be immense. If junkies didn't have to pay outrageous prices for their high, they wouldn't have to steal. The lowered amounts of crime would save us all money.

But, I dream.

The Raisuli

Mulay El Raisuli
09-10-2009, 8:41 AM
I wasnt going to bring this up but i have heard this many times. Also forrest workers and dfg

I heard of one story where the sheriffs dpt only had one patrol car that needed to be replaced and they didnt have the funds so all the pot farmers figured it would be a good investment to buy them one. I believe this was Va though



I'm confused. What's the benefit to pot farmers from the Sheriff having a working patrol car?

The Raisuli

cheese
09-10-2009, 8:55 AM
They bought the sheriff off for the price of a crown vic.....all hearsay though.The st. troopers would have takin over the little town otherwise

yellowfin
09-10-2009, 9:37 AM
In addition to what scc1909 said, there will still be a sort of cash cow with legalization; we won't be wasting BILLIONS of tax dollars to house & feed (in prison) those who toke.

If the same reasoning were applied to all other illegal drugs, the savings would be immense. If junkies didn't have to pay outrageous prices for their high, they wouldn't have to steal. The lowered amounts of crime would save us all money.

But, I dream.

The RaisuliWhich is exactly why police and prison unions oppose it as they do with self defense. It's really, really disgusting how their interests are DIRECTLY opposite that of everyone else. I for one would like to see all public employee unions outlawed for that reason.

cmonk518
09-10-2009, 10:19 AM
Here is an extremely recent article about two sheriff deputies being wounded by growers.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/03/us.marijuana.cartels/index.html

It's definitely a very recent trend in the last year or two my father said. Even the new documentary on MSNBC regarding pot in CA talks about growers shooting agents. The state Narcotics Bureau has alot of recent information regarding how many local and federal agents getting shot at and even wounded. Now that marijuana is a multi-billion dollar industry in CA, it is being overtaken by Mexican drug cartels, rather than your average stereotypical hippie N California growers.

GuyW
09-10-2009, 1:35 PM
And more to the point, they have no liability for injury incurred by you if they don't issue a CCW. THAT provision of the law needs to be removed if at all possible. Santa Clara, LA, SF, etc. sheriffs and police chiefs need to be completely and infinitely liable for every robbery, rape, carjacking, and murder committed against those they disarm.

That's a good thing to put forward. Let's get a legislator to introduce it, and let the anti-self-defense nazis in the legislature publicly argue against it....

hommm, this may fly as an initiaitive in conservative cities within no-CCW zones

.

Mulay El Raisuli
09-11-2009, 5:41 AM
Which is exactly why police and prison unions oppose it as they do with self defense. It's really, really disgusting how their interests are DIRECTLY opposite that of everyone else. I for one would like to see all public employee unions outlawed for that reason.



Ah, I see that you dream also. I'm with you, but it'll never happen.

The Raisuli

yellowfin
09-11-2009, 8:03 AM
I dreamed about deep fried dill pickles, and that happened.

Asphodel
09-11-2009, 2:10 PM
Which is exactly why police and prison unions oppose it as they do with self defense. It's really, really disgusting how their interests are DIRECTLY opposite that of everyone else. I for one would like to see all public employee unions outlawed for that reason.

Yellowfin, I concur regarding the prison guards union, and partially so with the police union.

The alleged political influence of the prison guards union has been a major on-going scandal within California for many years now.

I have read comments to the effect that the percentage of the population of California who are imprisoned, on parole or probation, or otherwise victims of the 'criminal justice system' is.....allegedly.....higher than that of the Soviet Russian population during the worst of the Stalinist era.

I've no idea as to whether that is factual or otherwise, but it does appear that the criminal justice system here is run as a 'racket'.....admittedly, thats only 'appears', I haven't any first-hand experience, to 'know' that for any certainty. I'm sure that the lawyers among us could comment, tho, should they choose to......presumably, they are in a position to have some real 'first-hand' knowledge.

Its not a good idea to suggest that unions representing other varieties of public employees be shut down, tho.

I have observed, first-hand, experience with one such union, the IBEW. My partner Elaine was a City comms worker represented by IBEW for some years before she was promoted management.

She served as a lead person at work, and also as the union 'shop steward', an unpaid volunteer job, to represent her workers' interest in any issues with higher management. In a small number of incidents, it was her duty to respond to workplace issues, some of which were needlessly unpleasant, to 'put it mildly'.

Without the employee protections in a union contract, the rank-and-file workers could/would be subjected to serious abuses by management.

(and the lower and middle levels of management can be, and often are, subjected to abuses by higher levels of management.....its 'not nice', but a sad 'fact of life' in workplace situations)

The history of labour unions in this country is a highly controversial one.....yes, some unions were/maybe still are thoroly corrupt. Jimmy Hoffa and Dave Beck of the Teamsters Union, years ago, were grim examples.

If there was any corruption in the IBEW, in this area, it was kept well hidden, as we never heard of any, at or after Union meetings, or in conversation with other Union members.

About the Police Union.......well, there were some stories circulated....but how does one differentiate between 'plausible as fact' and 'malicious unsubstantiated rumour' when hearing 'second hand', or 'third hand' stories, absent personal knowledge of the alleged incidents? Yes, there are multiple allegations of the 'white-washing' of police personnel regarding various incidents.....but I don't know the truth...or otherwise..... of any of those allegations, and its simply 'wrong' to spread rumour.

cheers

Carla

GuyW
09-11-2009, 3:12 PM
At one time, the existence of drug farms in National Forest and on private properties within San Diego County were "good cause" for land surveyors in San Diego Co, but based on one surveyor I know who's CCW was not renewed....not any more....
.

bodger
09-11-2009, 5:14 PM
If I get around to applying for a CCW, I definitely plan to list that in my good cause statement.

This year, they pulled 8,144 plants from our ranch in Mendocino county and confiscated 2 guns. Last year they got a few thousand plants, but no guns. We don't even go in that area of the property, armed or not, until law enforcement does their annual garden sweep.

But I don't have to mention that we don't go out there pre-sweep on my CCW application, right? :o


I applaud your self-control and common sense for not going out there and picking a firefight with those buttheads.

I'm not sure I could restrain myself or even sleep at night knowing there were foreign interlopers growing pot illegally on my property.

I do believe I would organize a group of my gunny compadres for a nocturnal search and destroy mission. And if a few perps opened up on us and then got shot and killed as a result, oh well.