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View Full Version : Non traditional gun rights activists, speak up.


nicki
09-07-2009, 9:25 PM
Most people on this board are white conservative or libertarian males, unfortunately our board does not represent the demographics of this state.

We know that we have members on this board who do not fit this profile and if you are in this thread you have at least some interest in gun rights.

We need to reach out to many groups, Blacks, Asians, Latinos, Indians, Women and others.

What I would like is if you are not a traditional gun owner, do a quick intro, tell us about which group you are part of and how we could outreach to those communities.

Tell us what part of the state you are in, knowing who you are and where you are will help us coordinate resources.

The members of this board are reasonably open minded, they really want your input and we have people that really want to help.

The best way for us to reach different groups is for us to have someone who is part of the group already to lead the outreach.

Nicki

Sutcliffe
09-07-2009, 9:35 PM
Still waiting.

Vtec44
09-07-2009, 9:38 PM
I'm Asian, living in So Cal but grew up in a military family so guns came very natural to me. My dad served in the US Airforce during the Vietnam War. My inlaws (also Asians) are VERY anti-gun. Thankfully, my wife and brother inlaw aren't. They love guns. I think the best way to get people, in general, to be interested in guns is to teach them how to operate one safely whenever you have a chance. People have the tendency of fearing the "unknown". Once that initial fear is over and they know guns don't just turn you into some sort of monstor, they will appreciate it as a powerful tool and nothing more.

wildhawker
09-07-2009, 10:03 PM
I would love for this discussion to continue at the local level via Calguns Community Chapter events and meets. Great post Nicki!

KylaGWolf
09-07-2009, 10:13 PM
I guess you could say I am a non traditional gun activist. I am a female that is disabled. I was raised in a military household (dad served in Korea, step dad served 20 years in military). I also have a brother that is gay so am comfortable in that community as well.

As I mentioned to Wildhawker at our meeting here in San Diego one way we could reach out to at least females is to set up self-defensive classes. ones that teach not only self defense using guns but also other ways that would help them to feel safer. I do think that we also need to work closer with the Pink Pistols.

CHS
09-07-2009, 10:14 PM
The fun thing about living and selling guns in Orange County is that I sell guns to asians pretty much every single day of the week.

I'm pretty d*mn white, but I'm arming those asians like crazy!!

htjyang
09-07-2009, 10:16 PM
I'm a conservative, Asian, non-gun owner living in Los Angeles who supports 2nd Amendment rights. I developed my interest in the 2nd Amendment as a result of my interest in constitutional law. The Supreme Court case DC v. Heller led me to start studying the issue of gun rights because I knew that the field of the 2nd Amendment will remain in flux for the next few decades. For those of us who live in unfree states, we have to rely upon the federal constitution and the federal courts to regain our rights. One of the ways to do that may be to target people who are most likely to influence our rights: lawyers and judges. Perhaps organizations such as the NRA may occasionally organize retreats for lawyers and judges to familiarize them with firearms. I agree with Vtec44 in that judicial hostility toward gun rights largely stems from ignorance and having watched too many Hollywood movies. If they have some personal experience with firearms, they may become more open-minded about gun rights. One way to counter the press's negative portrayal of gun use is to spread the word about defensive gun uses. In that regard, Clayton Cramer's Civilian Gun Self-Defense Blog (http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html) is an excellent resource.

CHS
09-07-2009, 10:21 PM
I'm a conservative, Asian, non-gun owner living in Los Angeles who supports 2nd Amendment rights.

I would just like to say, WELCOME to Calguns. You sound like a very intelligent future contributor. I'm glad to have you on our side!

Gator Monroe
09-07-2009, 10:21 PM
Shasta County one of the most CCW friendly, 89% White & 72% GOP (My state reps are both GOP , MY us Congressman is GOP & MY State senator is GOP) there is an entirely different side to our state that you are in denial of.

KWA-S
09-07-2009, 10:22 PM
I'm Arabic, live in Santa Barbara, lived in an anti family. My dad thinks guns are for criminals and terrorists and my mom is scared of them, like the typical soccer mom. I agree with VTec44 in that teaching someone how to shoot is the best way to convert them to our side. I've never met anyone who's shot a gun who didn't like it. When I have the opportunity, I plan on teaching all my friends how to shoot.

anthonyca
09-07-2009, 10:30 PM
Shasta County one of the most CCW friendly, 89% White & 72% GOP (My state reps are both GOP , MY us Congressman is GOP & MY State senator is GOP) there is an entirely different side to our state that you are in denial of.

The problem is that is a VERY, VERY, small and shrinking proportion of this state. We need that group but we already have that group. We need to expand.

PonchoTA
09-07-2009, 10:33 PM
Half-breed Injun here!

Retired Navy too!

:cheers2:

Gator Monroe
09-07-2009, 10:33 PM
The problem is that is a VERY, VERY, small and shrinking proportion of this state. We need that group but we already have that group. We need to expand.

The expansion should not include coddling folks who put other issues ahead of 2A and vote for the likes of Henry Waxman & Boxer & Pelosi & Feinstein because they are not single issue voters .

guayuque
09-07-2009, 10:35 PM
I am of Latin heritage and a lawyer. So is my wife and sister and brother in law. My wife and brother in law are of Irish descent. I mention all of this because of htjyang's comments. (I should also mention that I am no longer a member of the GOP - since 2000 - and a card carrying member of the ACLU!)

My sister and her husband are gun enthusiasts. My wife and brother in law are not, and they got that from their father, also a lawyer (RIP). My sister and I were familiarized by our maternal grandfather.

htjyang is right. Educating someone on the proper way to use and conduct yourself around firearms is the key. Just this past spring we took the nephews and nieces out shooting in the national forest. And, much to my surprise even my brother in law enjoyed the outing. I took it one step further and took my wife to a BBQ at a friend's mountain home (former Marine, former LE), were he had his range set up. She enjoyed herself as well.

So, yes, I think htjyang's suggestion that holding open courses for judges and lawyers would be a good thing. Getting them there? A little more troublesome, but like anything worth doing the effort should be made.

But, nicki is exactly right. Outreach is important if you want to change attitudes. Another thing I tought may be very useful to 2d A. supporters is doing something that really reaches across various communities. If you had a pro-gun group sponsoring illegal weapon buy backs - like the cops do form time to time to get guns off the streets - you would have support from judges, lawyers, LE, neighborhoods wre we may have crime. That kind of thing would be out of the box and show that responsible gun owners are just as interested in removing illegal weapons as anyone else.

Gray Peterson
09-07-2009, 10:44 PM
I'm not a Californian, but considering that me and Don Kates were the only Washingtonians who attended the Nordyke hearing January 15th, and my deep connections to the state (close friends, family history, etc), I feel I should chime in.

I'm a gay white male, married in spirit, domestic partnered in legality. I am a firearms enthusiast, and my husband is a blade and martial weapons enthusiast (crossbows especially). I marched in the "Join the Impact" Seattle rally against proposition 8, openly carrying. I educated a lot of people that day, that yes, one of "them" is openly a gun owner too.

Gator Monroe
09-07-2009, 10:45 PM
I am of Latin heritage and a lawyer. So is my wife and sister and brother in law. My wife and brother in law are of Irish descent. I mention all of this because of htjyang's comments. (I should also mention that I am no longer a member of the GOP - since 2000 - and a card carrying member of the ACLU!)

My sister and her husband are gun enthusiasts. My wife and brother in law are not, and they got that from their father, also a lawyer (RIP). My sister and I were familiarized by our maternal grandfather.

htjyang is right. Educating someone on the proper way to use and conduct yourself around firearms is the key. Just this past spring we took the nephews and nieces out shooting in the national forest. And, much to my surprise even my brother in law enjoyed the outing. I took it one step further and took my wife to a BBQ at a friend's mountain home (former Marine, former LE), were he had his range set up. She enjoyed herself as well.

So, yes, I think htjyang's suggestion that holding open courses for judges and lawyers would be a good thing. Getting them there? A little more troublesome, but like anything worth doing the effort should be made. Educating folks around here at CGN how to act at the polls is somthing to think about too ? after 2000 did you register Green or Democrat ?:confused:

KylaGWolf
09-07-2009, 10:47 PM
I am of Latin heritage and a lawyer. So is my wife and sister and brother in law. My wife and brother in law are of Irish descent. I mention all of this because of htjyang's comments. (I should also mention that I am no longer a member of the GOP - since 2000 - and a card carrying member of the ACLU!)

My sister and her husband are gun enthusiasts. My wife and brother in law are not, and they got that from their father, also a lawyer (RIP). My sister and I were familiarized by our maternal grandfather.

htjyang is right. Educating someone on the proper way to use and conduct yourself around firearms is the key. Just this past spring we took the nephews and nieces out shooting in the national forest. And, much to my surprise even my brother in law enjoyed the outing. I took it one step further and took my wife to a BBQ at a friend's mountain home (former Marine, former LE), were he had his range set up. She enjoyed herself as well.

So, yes, I think htjyang's suggestion that holding open courses for judges and lawyers would be a good thing. Getting them there? A little more troublesome, but like anything worth doing the effort should be made.

But, nicki is exactly right. Outreach is important if you want to change attitudes. Another thing I tought may be very useful to 2d A. supporters is doing something that really reaches across various communities. If you had a pro-gun group sponsoring illegal weapon buy backs - like the cops do form time to time to get guns off the streets - you would have support from judges, lawyers, LE, neighborhoods wre we may have crime. That kind of thing would be out of the box and show that responsible gun owners are just as interested in removing illegal weapons as anyone else.


Welcome to Calguns. The gun buyback is a great it is a great idea although not sure if it would be legal to do so.

guayuque
09-07-2009, 10:49 PM
Educating folks around here at CGN how to act at the polls is somthing to think about too ? after 2000 did you register Green or Democrat ?:confused:

Democrat. That was my anti-gun father in law's influence after all these years, I suppose. He was a chair for JFK's presidential campaign in California and ran for Congress a couple of times. Anyway, I just did not like the direction of the GOP and unfortunately I think I was proven correct.

Oh, and to Sutcliffe, don't be a afraid of the ACLU. The whole purpose of the organzation to to defend the Bill of Rights, which includes the 2d A.

guayuque
09-07-2009, 10:51 PM
Welcome to Calguns. The gun buyback is a great it is a great idea although not sure if it would be legal to do so.

Thanks, Kyla. It would require participation from a LE agency, with CalGuns members raising funds for the gun buy back.

Gator Monroe
09-07-2009, 10:52 PM
Democrat. That was my anti-gun father in law's influence after all these years, I suppose. He was a chair for JFK's presidential campaign in California and ran for Congress a couple of times. Anyway, I just did not like the direction of the GOP and unfortunately I think I was proven correct.

Oh, and to Sutcliffe, don't be a afraid of the ACLU. The whole purpose of the organzation to to defend the Bill of Rights, which includes the 2d A.

The Democrat/Dixiecrat Party was the Party of The Klan & Segregationists like George Wallace & Byrd, and MLK jr voted Republican.

guayuque
09-07-2009, 10:59 PM
The Democrat/Dixiecrat Party was the Party of The Klan & Segregationists like George Wallace & Byrd, and MLK jr voted Republican.

Yeah, a few decades ago. And, when the democrats voted for the Civil Rights Act they lost the South for two generations. Your point?

G-Man WC
09-07-2009, 11:03 PM
Now why is the stereotye always white-male-conservative? Not so!
Just because a lot of us look like cracker's does not mean were all Bubba!
My background is Greek-American. My grandparents came to this country from Crete to escape the German invasion. You may or may not have heard of the The Battle of Crete. May 20 1941. World War II.
At the start of the war Greece sided with the Allies and refused to give in to Italian demands. Germany planned to protect themselves against a British invasion from Egypt and to prepare for the planned invasion of Russia by invading crete.
The operation was successful in terms of taking the island from the Allied forces holding it, but the victory was so costly that the Germans never again launched a major airborne mission. A massive Greman parashute drop was met with fierce resistance by the Cretan civilians. May were pitchforked to death as they hit dirt. Then you know what the little man with the funny square mustash did to the all the men and boys in these villages?
That's one of the many reasons I own many guns. Just because were a certain race, does not mean we all together in like minded thinking. I get where your coming from and are looking for a new angle grass roots effort and I'm all for it. We all need to get more people into the shooting sports and dispel the myth of gun owners = crazy redneck hillbilly's. -g

Gator Monroe
09-07-2009, 11:15 PM
Yeah, a few decades ago. And, when the democrats voted for the Civil Rights Act they lost the South for two generations. Your point?

Gop voted in the Civil Right act , with a little help from Democrats who were not Dixiecrats. And all my Relitives in the south are still Democrats (Grey Hair Democrats)

Electricboy
09-07-2009, 11:23 PM
I am a democrat and an IBEW Electrician. I have introduced several people to shooting and have four more women that will be going soon. My hardcore liberal Democrat cousin recently went shooting and her 8 yo son now shoots trap in castro valley.

I believe that if you periodically offer to take a moderately anti-gun person shooting they will eventually accept. when they do they will no longer be anti-gun.

Some of this was brought on by ourselves. Because we didn't take the time to introduce someone new to guns, we just went shooting with people we like to shoot with and usually the same people. If every gun owner introduces just one person to shooting per year, the progress we will make will multiply.

Gator Monroe
09-07-2009, 11:28 PM
I am a democrat and an IBEW Electrician. I have introduced several people to shooting and have four more women that will be going soon. My hardcore liberal Democrat cousin recently went shooting and her 8 yo son now shoots trap in castro valley.

I believe that if you periodically offer to take a moderately anti-gun person shooting they will eventually accept. when they do they will no longer be anti-gun.

Some of this was brought on by ourselves. Because we didn't take the time to introduce someone new to guns, we just went shooting with people we like to shoot with and usually the same people. If every gun owner introduces just one person to shooting per year, the progress we will make will multiply.

But their voting habits will remain that of an Irvine California Soccer mom (Anti) unless they put 2A ahead of their other usuial voting issues .

steelrain82
09-07-2009, 11:57 PM
pardon my lack of knowledge but what does GOP stand for

guayuque
09-07-2009, 11:58 PM
pardon my lack of knowledge but what does GOP stand for

Grand Old Party, i.e., the Republican Party

FastFinger
09-08-2009, 12:18 AM
That's the abbreviation, but the question might also be "What principles does the GOP stand for?" And that's a good question with no clear answer. And that is a problem.

steelrain82
09-08-2009, 12:21 AM
Grand Old Party, i.e., the Republican Party

oh ok. yeah i used to be rep and im of mexican heritage but i idenify with american. so since i feel like both parties are so f'd up now im going the way of washington and going no party

curtisfong
09-08-2009, 12:21 AM
Nicki, you are awesome. Keep up the good work! Your attitude is what we need to succeed.

I am an Asian, libertarian-ish (not capital L), child of two very liberal gun hating parents. They taught me the value of our civil rights, but can't seem to understand the RKBA is one of the most fundamental ones. I can't convert them; it is too late, but I agree with the sentiment about taking people shooting. I have yet to meet a single person of any political orientation that didn't enjoy it when I brought them along.

If we are going to succeed here in CA, we have to remember that the "bitter white male R gun-owner" is a super-minority in this state.

.454
09-08-2009, 7:37 AM
Oh, and to Sutcliffe, don't be a afraid of the ACLU. The whole purpose of the organzation to to defend the Bill of Rights, which includes the 2d A.

Ahem!...your statement is not true (http://blog.aclu.org/2008/07/01/heller-decision-and-the-second-amendment/).
With the notable exception of the Nevada Chapter -ACLU considers the 2nd Amendment a collective (state militia) right, not an individual right.
Being an ACLU card carrying member you should have been aware of that. And maybe you should reconsider paying your membership to an organization that doesn't respect the most fundamental human right given to us by God and the US Constitution: the right of self defense.

Gator Monroe
09-08-2009, 7:42 AM
GOP = 90% Pro 2

Gator Monroe
09-08-2009, 7:44 AM
GOP =90% PRO 2A ~ Democrat Party 75% Anti 2A

wash
09-08-2009, 8:22 AM
I have large calves and I hate getting that elastic ring around them at the end of the day.

The stretchiest socks are womens socks. I wear womens socks, I'm a partial transvestite. All my other clothes are gender appropriate. I like girls too.

Any way, add one to the partial transvestite column.

p.s. Nine West microfiber FTW!

KylaGWolf
09-08-2009, 9:12 AM
Oh yeah to add to my earlier post I am not christian.

While I am not democrat but my mom, step dad and dad are all democrats. Now here is the funny thing none of them are anti gun. Although my mom isn't overly fond of guns she isn't against them (police officer/chief daughter). My step dad and dad have both had guns in the past. The political bashing in this thread is counter productive. The point is we are trying to convince those that think RKBA is not a good thing that they need to change their view. To bash another person's political belief or any other belief is not going to do that instead it may make their view that gun owners are bigots, and morons even stronger in their mind.

Gator Monroe
09-08-2009, 9:16 AM
Oh yeah to add to my earlier post I am not christian.

While I am not democrat but my mom, step dad and dad are all democrats. Now here is the funny thing none of them are anti gun. Although my mom isn't overly fond of guns she isn't against them (police officer/chief daughter). My step dad and dad have both had guns in the past. The political bashing in this thread is counter productive. The point is we are trying to convince those that think RKBA is not a good thing that they need to change their view. To bash another person's political belief or any other belief is not going to do that instead it may make their view that gun owners are bigots, and morons even stronger in their mind.

And when Democrat Firearms afficianados here run to the polls and vote for anti's, Election in & election out , Pro 2A posters at firearms forums need stronger views to be voiced to shine light on this fact .

tiki
09-08-2009, 9:16 AM
I also use a Dvorak keyboard layout, RPN calculators, linux operating system, and when I have money to buy bikes I buy and ride recumbents.

Dude, you're all screwed up!!! Just kidding. I love my HP48-GX. :)

yoteassasin
09-08-2009, 9:29 AM
OK I'll bite I'm a first generation American of Chilean and Irish herratige . i don't really classify my self as non traditional. but I guess I am. growing up i was a spick to the white kids and a guero to the mexicans. I identify closest with hard working people. as a child of immigrants i saw first hand what language barriers and discrimination can do as one scrapes to the top in the land of opportunity, and the hardships one endures as being labeled part of a (non-traditional group) so i guess I'm just an AMERICAN and I'll throw that non-traditional label aside

guayuque
09-08-2009, 9:49 AM
Ahem!...your statement is not true (http://blog.aclu.org/2008/07/01/heller-decision-and-the-second-amendment/).
With the notable exception of the Nevada Chapter -ACLU considers the 2nd Amendment a collective (state militia) right, not an individual right.
Being an ACLU card carrying member you should have been aware of that. And maybe you should reconsider paying your membership to an organization that doesn't respect the most fundamental human right given to us by God and the US Constitution: the right of self defense.

I think it is a bit more complicated than that. Supporting Miller (1939) and the collective right does not necessarily mean that gun ownership be eliminated nor does it mean you cannot act in self defense. Nowhere has the ACLU ever supported disallowing self defense, if that is your problem. But, my reasons for supporting the ACLU run much wider and I will not accept or reject any person or organization throught the filter of one lens that is capable of being focused only to my vision. I disagree with many things my country has done, but still llve it dearly. I disagree with some of the things some of my family members have done, but love them dearly. It think is it not useful to apply a litmus test of a narrow issue in which I think I am right and if you disgaree you are not worthy of being heard.

It think it suffices to state that while the ACLU disagreed with Heller it is not taking an actively adverse position on Heller. In other words, it will follow and respect what Heller rules. It also agrees with Heller that states and localities can still regulate gun ownership. I agree because I do not think that registration, background checks, waiting times, etc. are too onerous for me to buy a firearm.

But, nicki's point is more important here. I think she is right that if you want to change attitudes you need to have a wider footprint and you need to reach out to other persons. Applying a litmus test of a solitary issue defeats that very purpose. You exclude people, not include them and that just weakens you and narrows your ranks.

Vtgunner
09-08-2009, 9:52 AM
I am a first generation American of Canadian descent. I am a white liberal who refuses to vote along either party lines and tend to support candidates that are bright and talented and have similiar values to myself. I have a strong belief in the bill of rights and the constitution and even basic human rights not provided for in the consitution. However i feel our federal government needs to be strong in order to balance the power of corporations and state governments. I am lawyer with lots of liberal lawyer friends who believe strongly in gun control right up to the point that you take them to the gun range and they have a blast. One exception to this rule if my friend in JAG in the Marine Corp. I think he is the exception because his wife is a much better shot than he is.

Gator Monroe
09-08-2009, 9:54 AM
I think it is a bit more complicated than that. Supporting Miller (1939) and the collective right does not necessarily mean that gun ownership be eliminated nor does it mean you cannot act in self defense. Nowhere has the ACLU ever supported disallowing self defense, if that is your problem. But, my reasons for supporting the ACLU run much wider and I will not accept or reject any person or organization throught the filter of one lens that is capable of being focused only to my vision. I disagree with many things my country has done, but still llve it dearly. I disagree with some of the things some of my family members have done, but love them dearly. It think is it not useful to apply a litmus test of a narrow issue in which I think I am right and if you disgaree you are not worthy of being heard.

It think it suffices to state that while the ACLU disagreed with Heller it is not taking an actively adverse position on Heller. In other words, the will follow what Heller rules. It also agrees with Heller that states and localities can still regulate gun ownership. I agree because I do not think that registration, background checks, waiting times, etc. are too onerous for me to buy a firearm.

But, nicki's point is more important here. I think she is right that if you want to change attitudes you need to have a wider footprint and you need to reach out to other persons. Applying a litmus test of a solitary issue defeats that very purpose. You exclude people, not include them and that just weakens you and narrow your ranks.

To coddle folks who WILL vote for Anti's for the sake of Forum/board unity is not expeditious.

guayuque
09-08-2009, 9:58 AM
To coddle folks who WILL vote for Anti's for the sake of Forum/board unity is not expeditious.

You assume that their minds cannot be changed. As vtgunner and others have pointed out, when you get them on the range and show them how to use a firearm properly they come around or sofetn their position. I've not met one person yet that after you get them to the firing line to have some fun has not had a change in position about guns. Try it sometime. Drawing a line in the sand only hardens their position. SHowing them you are knowledgeable, responsible interested in their learning and letting them have some fun is a powerful tool.

Vtec44
09-08-2009, 10:06 AM
That's the abbreviation, but the question might also be "What principles does the GOP stand for?" And that's a good question with no clear answer. And that is a problem.

Traditionally speaking, GOP party is pro-gun, pro-life, pro-business, pro-defense. At least that's my understading.

Gator Monroe
09-08-2009, 10:15 AM
You assume that their minds cannot be changed. As vtgunner and others have pointed out, when you get them on the range and show them how to use a firearm properly they come around or sofetn their position. I've not met one person yet that after you get them to the firing line to have some fun has not had a change in position about guns. Try it sometime. Drawing a line in the sand only hardens their position. SHowing them you are knowledgeable, responsible interested in their learning and letting them have some fun is a powerful tool.

There are Issues that they will vote for that supercede any acceceptance they may gain from toying with firearms as a new hobby .

skylovia
09-08-2009, 10:19 AM
I figured this would be a good first post for me.

I am a conservative full blooded El Salvadorian American. Though i absolutely hate referring to myself as anything but "just American", for the purposes of this thread I'm El Salvadorian American. My parents are conservatives, my brother and two sisters are conservatives. My WIFE is a conservative. We ALL support the 2nd amendment.

Oh ya and my father NEVER told me to be proud to be El Salvadorian, but he ALWAYS told me to be proud to be a American. Pretty funny if you consider that the man grew up in San Francisco and i was born there.

PEBKAC
09-08-2009, 10:23 AM
Ahem!...your statement is not true (http://blog.aclu.org/2008/07/01/heller-decision-and-the-second-amendment/).
With the notable exception of the Nevada Chapter -ACLU considers the 2nd Amendment a collective (state militia) right, not an individual right.
Being an ACLU card carrying member you should have been aware of that. And maybe you should reconsider paying your membership to an organization that doesn't respect the most fundamental human right given to us by God and the US Constitution: the right of self defense.
As long as the ACLU doesn't start opposing gun ownership, they are fine and we don't have to worry about them. The ACLU does what they do pretty well, even if they can't quite remember 2 when counting. The NRA does what they do very well, and they focus exclusively on 2. Between the two of them we pretty much cover the constitution.

It's really not a big deal. The ACLU is hardly the Brady bunch, and unlike the Brady bunch, the position they currently hold will probably change as the case law supporting the individual right interpretation piles up.

KylaGWolf
09-08-2009, 10:26 AM
I figured this would be a good first post for me.

I am a conservative full blooded El Salvadorian American. Though i absolutely hate referring to myself as anything but "just American", for the purposes of this thread I'm El Salvadorian American. My parents are conservatives, my brother and two sisters are conservatives. My WIFE is a conservative. We ALL support the 2nd amendment.

Oh ya and my father NEVER told me to be proud to be El Salvadorian, but he ALWAYS told me to be proud to be a American. Pretty funny if you consider that the man grew up in San Francisco and i was born there.

Not really. My dads family all immigrated from Germany.My mom is Irish, Swedish and Cherokee. My step dad Mexican American. They always said they were Americans just remembered where their family came from. I figure if you become a citizen your that an American regardless of where your family came from. I think that is one thing that both binds and divides our country. Lets face it they call America The Great Melting Pot for a reason :). I am American first and foremost. But having said that I do honor my ancestors (Irish, German, Swedish, and Cherokee).

Gator Monroe
09-08-2009, 10:39 AM
Not really. My dads family all immigrated from Germany.My mom is Irish, Swedish and Cherokee. My step dad Mexican American. They always said they were Americans just remembered where their family came from. I figure if you become a citizen your that an American regardless of where your family came from. I think that is one thing that both binds and divides our country. Lets face it they call America The Great Melting Pot for a reason :). I am American first and foremost. But having said that I do honor my ancestors (Irish, German, Swedish, and Cherokee).

Socialist Progressive ideals heve turned America into the Chamber Pot .

KylaGWolf
09-08-2009, 10:44 AM
Well then you would be mistaken if you think I am either a socialist or progressive.

Hunt
09-08-2009, 11:45 AM
Most people on this board are white conservative or libertarian males, unfortunately our board does not represent the demographics of this state.

We know that we have members on this board who do not fit this profile and if you are in this thread you have at least some interest in gun rights.

We need to reach out to many groups, Blacks, Asians, Latinos, Indians, Women and others.

What I would like is if you are not a traditional gun owner, do a quick intro, tell us about which group you are part of and how we could outreach to those communities.

Tell us what part of the state you are in, knowing who you are and where you are will help us coordinate resources.

The members of this board are reasonably open minded, they really want your input and we have people that really want to help.

The best way for us to reach different groups is for us to have someone who is part of the group already to lead the outreach.

NickiNo disrespect meant but this identity politics is nonsense, we are all Americans, Gawd I wish we could get over this divisive identity politics. Nothing makes our masters happier than to have the people consuming identity politics. If we want to restore America let's drop the manipulative politics, we are *all* Americans that's it and leave it at that.

Gator Monroe
09-08-2009, 11:51 AM
No disrespect meant but this identity politics is nonsense, we are all Americans, Gawd I wish we could get over this divisive identity politics. Nothing makes our masters happier than to have the people consuming identity politics. If we want to restore America let's drop the manipulative politics, we are *all* Americans that's it and leave it at that.

Some Americans are gun grabbers (We know which political party they are) .

wash
09-08-2009, 12:23 PM
It's not about identity, it's about assumptions and outreach.

By displaying the diversity of people who support our cause it invites other people to join us.

Believe it or not, some people would not to join a club if it looked like all the members were old overweight white men.

skylovia
09-08-2009, 12:24 PM
Not really. My dads family all immigrated from Germany.My mom is Irish, Swedish and Cherokee. My step dad Mexican American. They always said they were Americans just remembered where their family came from. I figure if you become a citizen your that an American regardless of where your family came from. I think that is one thing that both binds and divides our country. Lets face it they call America The Great Melting Pot for a reason :). I am American first and foremost. But having said that I do honor my ancestors (Irish, German, Swedish, and Cherokee).

There is nothing wrong with remembering where you came from, but many like to have their "nationality" take precedence over being American. I believe this is a big problem in America because it is just another thing to divide us. Being "diverse" will never unite us.

curtisfong
09-08-2009, 12:27 PM
There is nothing wrong with remembering where you came from, but many like to have their "nationality" take precedence over being American. I believe this is a big problem in America because it is just another thing to divide us.

I agree.

Being "diverse" will never unite us.

No, diversity itself isn't the problem. The problem is being proud of that "diversity" above everything else. Focus on the ways you are similar, not different. That is how you unite.

Flopper
09-08-2009, 12:34 PM
No disrespect meant but this identity politics is nonsense, we are all Americans, Gawd I wish we could get over this divisive identity politics. Nothing makes our masters happier than to have the people consuming identity politics. If we want to restore America let's drop the manipulative politics, we are *all* Americans that's it and leave it at that.

+1,000,000 with a caveat.

I hate identity politics also since it's used to divide people, but I think the outreach the OP is attempting to do is a good idea.

Our enemies have been using identity politics for so long to weaken us that we need some remedial efforts to make people understand that everyone is welcome under our banner, so long as they are opposed to tyranny.

hamster
09-08-2009, 1:00 PM
Does it really matter what race you are? I'm 4th gen Japanese and 2nd gen Filipino, but everyone calls me a coconut. I'm brown on the outside and white on the inside. Anyone that really knows me knows that I like guns. And if we get to talking enough they'll usually ask to come out with me or I'll invite them to go shooting. I've never really run into an anti-gun person... maybe I have but the way I bring it up is so neutral and naturally that I've never got a bad reaction. I figure the friends you have already like you, if you can get them into the sport the more the merrier.

PatriotnMore
09-08-2009, 1:25 PM
[quote=hamster;3033548]Does it really matter what race you are?quote]


NO, as has been pointed out, if you are here legally, you are now an American, and that covers every race, creed, and color.

I may not like some issues of others, they may not like mine, but I would never advocate subverting, or changing the Constitution to suit my views.

If your views, desires for change, and wants are Constitutionally supported as a right, if laws are passed which pass Constitutional muster in spirit, or what has been written (which is NOT activist constitutional lawmaking), than we need to respect and abide by such laws.

What you eat, who you pray to, your sexual preference, color of skin, and traditions of your culture, have nothing to do with are you an American.

However, America is its own mixed culture, has its own history, values, and ways of living. Please don't come here and place the country you left to become an American, above our countries values, traditions, laws, and culture.

Americans are not adverse to sharing your culture, just look around we love eating your foods, watching the dances/shows, dress, and colors of your heritage, and supporting your desire to keep ties from where you came.

But, you are here now, and you should take on with pride the culture, language, and traditions of the new country you call home.

Edit to add: This was not a personal statement of fact, I am being generic in my post.

sega18
09-08-2009, 1:48 PM
I am a white libertarian male. However, I was also born in Israel and lived there for 6 years.

GuyW
09-08-2009, 1:57 PM
If you had a pro-gun group sponsoring illegal weapon buy backs - like the cops do form time to time to get guns off the streets...

Yeah - but as law abiding gun owners we can't engage in illegal activities like the government does with impunity....

(yes, I know I twisted your ambiguity to my end, but cities have done illegal things with gun buy-back programs)

Good post tho - welcome to CalGuns.

.

Super Spy
09-08-2009, 2:01 PM
I'm of the majority here....though married to an Asian...whom I'm trying to convert to the dark side.....She think guns kill....I'm trying to get her to understand that people kill, stupid kills, but guns sit there until you pick them up and pull the trigger.....

Supposedly one of these days my cop buddy is going to teach her to shoot....I hope.

curtisfong
09-08-2009, 2:03 PM
why do you need a cop buddy to teach her?

mmartin
09-08-2009, 2:27 PM
female here, many generations american (scottish and native american heritage) with a hispanic name, small "l" libertairian with big "L" libertarian and conservative leanings. former GOP now homeless. Raised in a family that is 50/50 gun hating/fearing liberals and big "R" military personnel. raised by the uber-liberal group, ended up being the black sheep in that herd. count me non-traditional because, while my day job is engineering (read: largely libertarian and nearly all male, but mostly not gun-experienced), my night job is teaching/performing bellydancing (read artsy and hyper-liberal and nearly all female).

I've never really run into an anti-gun person... maybe I have but the way I bring it up is so neutral and naturally that I've never got a bad reaction.

So about a year ago I was pumping gas and the fellow on the other side of the pump decided to initiate a friendly chat. He asked about the sticker in my explorer window "SWPL". What's that stand for? he asks... I say South West Pisotl League... and he literally jumps back two feet with his arms spread out and his eyes blown wide open and shouts "GUN People!" caught me quite by surprise, but I tried to play it smooth, ignoring the jump, talking about IPSC/IDPA, how people train and practice for safety and accuracy, how learning to handle the guns safely in that setting calms people's fears, teaches them responsible skills, how its a precision sport requiring practice and discipline, and it's fun besides... blah blah no-big-deal-ordinary-as-apple-pie chatter... by the time he'd finished pumping gas he'd stepped forward one of the two feet he'd jumped back. it was pretty funny, hope I did some good. apparently I don't look like "gun people" when I'm pumping gas.

I figure the friends you have already like you, if you can get them into the sport the more the merrier.

ditto on that. in the process of setting up a "belly dancers go shooting" day right now... got about 30 of my students interested, at least 20 ready to sign up (not a bad interest level considering the largely liberal group they draw on). my hubby and I have taken several small groups out for a day at the range, it's been a big hit with everyone who's gone so far. got a group forming of engineers from my work too... some interested, some just curious, some because they're bothered by the fact that the only female in the lot is the one who knows the most gun stuff.

no matter, if they go and they have fun and lose some fear, it's all good. don't know that it will convert them to strong 2a voters, but at least I can hope it makes them listen to information and propaganda with better, more open ears.

outreach outreach outreach, one-on-one, circle of friends, then their friends....

Megan

mmartin
09-08-2009, 2:32 PM
why do you need a cop buddy to teach her?

sometimes it's best if a neutral third party does the teaching. spouses teaching each other things doesn't always go smoothly. besides, if the extra implication of authority and skill comforts her and gets her past her fears, who cares who does the teaching? nice if she trust/respects the hubby to do the teaching, however, we're not all naturally skilled teachers. whatever gets her there, I say it's all good.
megan

Can'thavenuthingood
09-08-2009, 3:06 PM
Regarding a Calguns sponsored gun buy back.

It shouldn't be a big deal at all as it needs an FFL to collect for transfers or consignment, I think.

Herb Bauer in Fresno (http://www.kmph.com/Global/story.asp?S=11038524) has been doing it and has one scheduled to begin 15 September 2009.

Vick

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Herb Bauer Announces Gun Buy-Back Program, Fresno Police Not Happy
Posted: Sep 2, 2009 10:47 PM
http://kmph.images.worldnow.com/images/11038524_BG1.jpg By: Ashley Ritchie
At Herb Bauer Sporting Goods in Fresno, Barry Bauer is preparing for a gun buy-back program of his own.
"This is the commercial version of the city's version," Barry Bauer, owner, said.
It was a version that touted the idea of getting a handle on crime by giving criminals gift cards.
"In terms of, is it going to stop any crimes, are the bad guys gonna have guns? Of course the bad guys are still gonna have guns. It's only the honest citizens that are probably turning them in," Bauer said.

Bauer says taking in used guns is something he's done for years.
Now he's simply following the lead of the police department and making it an actual program.
"We're offering to take guns I guess off the street or from people who don't want them anymore. I'm calling it unwanted guns. And we're recycling them back into the community," he said.

Bauer says his program is different than the city's because it will pay people more for their guns and cost the city nothing.
"I was out there and they had oodles of police all over the place collecting these guns and they were prepared to spend 10 hours and at least a dozen officers. That's pretty expensive," Bauer said.

But Fresno police aren't amused.
Chief Jerry Dyer would not go on camera for an interview, but spokesperson Jeff Cardinale said "The chief is very, very disappointed with what Herb Bauer is doing. And the store is acting unprofessional."
"I guess he's thinking this as a competitive program to the city's program. It shouldn't be a competitive program. I'm doing exactly the same thing their program's doing," Bauer said.

Over at "The Range (http://www.therangepistolclub.com/)" in Fresno, they agree with Bauer.
"There's over 220 million firearms in households in the United States. And the approach that demonizes the weapon as opposed to criminals that misuse the weapons I think is not good thinking," Ron Sawl, ‘The Range' owner, said.

"Maybe the city and police are missing the point," Bauer said.
Bauer says despite the Chief's disappointment, he has no intention of pulling the trigger on something he's been doing for years.
Herb Bauer's buyback program starts September 15th.

You can bring in operational or non-operational guns.

If they can resale your gun, you'll get cash. If not, you'll still receive a gift card for the store.

And background checks will be done on anyone buying one of the turned in guns.
Herb Bauer will not accept assault weapons.
Gun owners must present a valid California ID or driver's license.

(http://www.worldnow.com/)

http://analytics.worldnow.com/dcsuhch2hzersfqyzf2de5tct_4d8l/njs.gif?dcsuri=/nojavascript&WT.js=No&WT.tv=8.0.0&WT.sp=KMPH&dcssip=www.kmph-kfre.com
http://analytics.worldnow.com/dcsuhch2hzersfqyzf2de5tct_4d8l/njs.gif?dcsuri=/nojavascript&WT.js=No&WT.tv=8.0.0&WT.sp=KMPH&dcssip=www.kmph-kfre.com

kf6tac
09-08-2009, 3:15 PM
in the process of setting up a "belly dancers go shooting" day right now... got about 30 of my students interested, at least 20 ready to sign up (not a bad interest level considering the largely liberal group they draw on).

The interesting thing about this is that I've interacted with many people who, although they profess that they find target shooting to be a lot of fun, immediately follow that with, "But I still think it should be okay to ban all guns." For a lot of people there's still a disconnect between the fact that shooting is fun and the idea that gun ownership is everyone's right.

CSACANNONEER
09-08-2009, 3:17 PM
Go Herb!

I do question the need for a Ca CDL though. I thought that an FFL could buy from a resident of any state. Am I missing something here?

Can'thavenuthingood
09-08-2009, 3:24 PM
Go Herb!

I do question the need for a Ca CDL though. I thought that an FFL could buy from a resident of any state. Am I missing something here?

Maybe he is using the ID or CDL as a link to any gun you bring in, tie it to an owner?

Vick

mmartin
09-08-2009, 3:37 PM
The interesting thing about this is that I've interacted with many people who, although they profess that they find target shooting to be a lot of fun, immediately follow that with, "But I still think it should be okay to ban all guns." For a lot of people there's still a disconnect between the fact that shooting is fun and the idea that gun ownership is everyone's right.

yeah, have seen that. but I take unfair advantage of the fact that they're already my students, acustomed to learning from me and predisposed to see me as a source of information and fact, and that I already carry credibility with them. we don't just shoot at these things, we talk (we're women after all...) ... right to self defense... who gun control actually impacts... 2a... how they'd feel if they had to actually defend a loved one, especially a child... how they'd feel if they were not able to do so... how they'd feel if they called the cops for protection and the cops didn't get there in time... how an agressor who proceeds in the face of a armed mother protecting herself or her children is the one who's making the choice to put his life at risk, not the mother protecting her cubs... you know, the works.

especially with moms, thiking about protecting their children is a powerful viewpoint, as is how they'd feel if they weren't able to. also useful to get them picturing how their children's lives would be impacted if they failed to protect themselves. that in combination with knowing they *can* control a weapon, can do so without great fear, while knowing how to protect their children *from* that weapon can be greatly empowering. enough to shift people's position sometimes. and then, the fact that it's fun just sweetens the pot.
megan

guayuque
09-08-2009, 4:27 PM
Socialist Progressive ideals heve turned America into the Chamber Pot .

I think this is rather insulting, especially considering the author is probably not native American.

.454
09-08-2009, 5:18 PM
I am a Klingon.
Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam! (Today is a good day to die!)
:D

Theseus
09-08-2009, 5:21 PM
I am the typical, slightly overweight white male. I won't claim any political or religious affiliation, but I have leaned libertarian.

One of our plans for the next OC meet is to have it at a range with instructors.

If we could work with ammunition manufacturers, dealers, etc, ranges, instructors and such to have a monthly "Public Range Day" where members of the public could come and receive some training, shoot some guns, get some food etc we might be able to reach some people that we otherwise would not.

Once we get the event organized we might be able to focus our effort on getting people there. . . Maybe even hold them at various and rotating places to increase the reach.

woodguy
09-08-2009, 6:10 PM
I think that one of the biggest problems with 2A politics is the way that it's been completely combined with so many other issues in an attempt to continue the political divide in this country. Look at the number of times that "Socialist", "Progressive", "Liberal", "God", coddling folks, derogatory nicknames for those in political office, etc. are used on this board. These have little to nothing to do with the second amendment.

I'm a white male, Democrat, with socialist and progressive leanings. I'm also own a number of guns, shoot regularly and am a strong proponent of the second amendment. Iíve introduced a number of other people to shooting and I also discuss 2A issues with people frequently to educate them on both our second amendment rights and on the current state of the legal landscape surrounding those rights.

I can't in good conscience become a single issue voter and view everything through the litmus test of 2A. There are other issues out there which are important also. Success for the 2A cause shouldn't be getting the GOP to win, it should be making gun rights a political non-issue which both parties can support. By continuing to define 2a rights the way they are now, the movement is losing the support of many Democrats who could be brought into the cause.

I don't think that most non-gun people are afraid of guns, they are afraid of gun owners. The image of most 2a supporters is of people who are single issue fanatics with no perspective, no interest in compromise on any subject, and an inability to carry on a civil discourse on 2a rights. That image is just reinforced by the types of comments frequently found on this board. How childish is it to refer to our duly elected political leaders by derogatory nicknames? Does this really help us get our 2a arguments taken seriously? Disagree with a politicianís political stance all you want, but at least be respectful of others. Just take a look at the excellent legal filings supported by CalGuns recently. They were strong, legally sound arguments which were on topic while still being respectful of the opposition. This is the type of discourse which makes us seem competent, trustworthy and deserving of a seat at the table of public debate.

Crazed_SS
09-08-2009, 6:12 PM
I think that one of the biggest problems with 2A politics is the way that it's been completely combined with so many other issues in an attempt to continue the political divide in this country. Look at the number of times that "Socialist", "Progressive", "Liberal", "God", coddling folks, derogatory nicknames for those in political office, etc. are used on this board. These have little to nothing to do with the second amendment.

I'm a white male, Democrat, with socialist and progressive leanings. I'm also own a number of guns, shoot regularly and am a strong proponent of the second amendment. Iíve introduced a number of other people to shooting and I also discuss 2A issues with people frequently to educate them on both our second amendment rights and on the current state of the legal landscape surrounding those rights.

I can't in good conscience become a single issue voter and view everything through the litmus test of 2A. There are other issues out there which are important also. Success for the 2A cause shouldn't be getting the GOP to win, it should be making gun rights a political non-issue which both parties can support. By continuing to define 2a rights the way they are now, the movement is losing the support of many Democrats who could be brought into the cause.

I don't think that most non-gun people are afraid of guns, they are afraid of gun owners. The image of most 2a supporters is of people who are single issue fanatics with no perspective, no interest in compromise on any subject, and an inability to carry on a civil discourse on 2a rights. That image is just reinforced by the types of comments frequently found on this board. How childish is it to refer to our duly elected political leaders by derogatory nicknames? Does this really help us get our 2a arguments taken seriously? Disagree with a politicianís political stance all you want, but at least be respectful of others. Just take a look at the excellent legal filings supported by CalGuns recently. They were strong, legally sound arguments which were on topic while still being respectful of the opposition. This is the type of discourse which makes us seem competent, trustworthy and deserving of a seat at the table of public debate.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter

mmartin
09-08-2009, 6:19 PM
I don't think that most non-gun people are afraid of guns, they are afraid of gun owners.
I can't speak for "most", however, the women I know who are afraid are by and large afraid of the gun itself.
megan

CoinStar
09-08-2009, 6:22 PM
Some Americans are gun grabbers (We know which political party they are) .

Those who see everything through a partisan filter are a bigger threat to our common cause than any so-called "anti" out there.

It's funny (in the peculiar sense) and sad at the same time to see this thread --one that is about opening the door even wider to potential pro-gun allies-- be peppered with well over a dozen of your typically ignorant, inane and divisive comments.

Mike d'Ocla
09-08-2009, 6:39 PM
My thanks to Woodguy for his thoughtful, articulate statement, which I completely endorse.

I've been a member of the ACLU for about 40 years. I suspect that without the ACLU's first amendment work, there would be no internet discussion of the second amendment.

The tendency of many posters here to label others in a disparaging way and to otherwise express their dismissal of complex points of view which they do not understand is very much the antithesis of democracy. Democracy is all about respecting and tolerating people who think differently from the way that any particular group does, even, and especially, the majority.

Fascism and totalitarianism are all about everyone thinking the same absolutely correct thoughts.

Theseus
09-08-2009, 6:42 PM
I agree too that making it a less partisan issue. . . The problem we have is that when our officials (of any party) get into office they believe that to be a "referendum" on ALL their issues. They believe that you voted them in for their perspective on everything.

We need to find a way to make it clear that we may only dislike someone because of one thing, and not all. I didn't dislike Obama because he wanted change, I disliked him because of the change he wanted.

KylaGWolf
09-08-2009, 7:11 PM
I have never been anti gun. As a female though I have to say I had a healthy fear of them. Also after I had my spinal injury I lost partial use of one arm so wasn't sure if I would ever be able to use one. Took meeting my other half and a good friend to convince me otherwise. Fell in love with shooting after my first outing.

rabagley
09-08-2009, 8:01 PM
I'm an atheist and I don't think Obama is evil. I'm also a lifelong hunter, gun nut, and 2nd amendment supporter.

yoteassasin
09-08-2009, 8:17 PM
ok lets make it a less partisan issue.... who specificity votes to restrict 2nd Amendment rights and who doesn't... oh wait it just became single issue. ok who wants to take more money from Me? who wants to take rights and guns away from ME? who wants to give the fruits of MY hard worked labor to some one else?. OH looks like i know who in definitely not on my side but the lesser of evils is better than the worst

guayuque
09-08-2009, 8:22 PM
I think that one of the biggest problems with 2A politics is the way that it's been completely combined with so many other issues in an attempt to continue the political divide in this country. Look at the number of times that "Socialist", "Progressive", "Liberal", "God", coddling folks, derogatory nicknames for those in political office, etc. are used on this board. These have little to nothing to do with the second amendment.

I'm a white male, Democrat, with socialist and progressive leanings. I'm also own a number of guns, shoot regularly and am a strong proponent of the second amendment. Iíve introduced a number of other people to shooting and I also discuss 2A issues with people frequently to educate them on both our second amendment rights and on the current state of the legal landscape surrounding those rights.

I can't in good conscience become a single issue voter and view everything through the litmus test of 2A. There are other issues out there which are important also. Success for the 2A cause shouldn't be getting the GOP to win, it should be making gun rights a political non-issue which both parties can support. By continuing to define 2a rights the way they are now, the movement is losing the support of many Democrats who could be brought into the cause.

I don't think that most non-gun people are afraid of guns, they are afraid of gun owners. The image of most 2a supporters is of people who are single issue fanatics with no perspective, no interest in compromise on any subject, and an inability to carry on a civil discourse on 2a rights. That image is just reinforced by the types of comments frequently found on this board. How childish is it to refer to our duly elected political leaders by derogatory nicknames? Does this really help us get our 2a arguments taken seriously? Disagree with a politicianís political stance all you want, but at least be respectful of others. Just take a look at the excellent legal filings supported by CalGuns recently. They were strong, legally sound arguments which were on topic while still being respectful of the opposition. This is the type of discourse which makes us seem competent, trustworthy and deserving of a seat at the table of public debate.

Those who see everything through a partisan filter are a bigger threat to our common cause than any so-called "anti" out there.

It's funny (in the peculiar sense) and sad at the same time to see this thread --one that is about opening the door even wider to potential pro-gun allies-- be peppered with well over a dozen of your typically ignorant, inane and divisive comments.

My thanks to Woodguy for his thoughtful, articulate statement, which I completely endorse.

I've been a member of the ACLU for about 40 years. I suspect that without the ACLU's first amendment work, there would be no internet discussion of the second amendment.

The tendency of many posters here to label others in a disparaging way and to otherwise express their dismissal of complex points of view which they do not understand is very much the antithesis of democracy. Democracy is all about respecting and tolerating people who think differently from the way that any particular group does, even, and especially, the majority.

Fascism and totalitarianism are all about everyone thinking the same absolutely correct thoughts.

These gentlemen are precisely the type of advocates that will advance the cause of private and responsible gun ownership and show "anti" that we are indeed rational, understand the public policy of regulation, and that we can be trusted to listen and engage in debate and compromise. Beinf reactionary, or perhaps a btter term is reflexive on one point simply shows "antis" that we are one tracked thinkers not be be trusted to engage in rational and thoughtful debate.

croc4
09-08-2009, 8:29 PM
Resident alien here, white Australian and a gun "nut"
Served 4 years in the US military, technically an Aussie, but been here long enough to "feel like" a yank and sound like one unless I'm talking to myself ;-).

Croc4

CavTrooper
09-08-2009, 8:35 PM
I find the extreme bigotry and sterotyping here highly offensive.

Gun owners are supposed to be whitebread redneck hillbilly hicks?

Its even worse when the sterotyping comes from within the supposed "gun owning" community.

Can'thavenuthingood
09-08-2009, 8:47 PM
Well this has certainly turned out to be one of the more interesting threads we've had in awhile.

I want a gun just because you people have a gun:)

Vick

Flogger23m
09-08-2009, 8:49 PM
Ok, I'll have a go:


Most people on this board are white conservative or libertarian males, unfortunately our board does not represent the demographics of this state.


I am a male, non-white and not a conservative (not sure what I am :o). I am Indian (Indian Indian, not Native American), but I was born here.



What I would like is if you are not a traditional gun owner, do a quick intro, tell us about which group you are part of and how we could outreach to those communities.



I am Indian, but aside from by parents being from India, I am pretty much you average American.

As for reaching out more to non-white males, I am really not sure what can be done. Just keep letting people know how important and how great it is to have a right to protect yourself and your family. And take them shooting more.


Tell us what part of the state you are in, knowing who you are and where you are will help us coordinate resources.


Bay Area. Quite a bit of Indians and middle easterners here.

For what it is worth, I've bought stuff off of Calgunners around five times, and only one guy was white.

When I went shooting before, I've seen some women, an Asian guy, and some middle eastern men.

So in my experience, at least here, there are plenty of non-white gun owners.



I think that one of the biggest problems with 2A politics is the way that it's been completely combined with so many other issues in an attempt to continue the political divide in this country. Look at the number of times that "Socialist", "Progressive", "Liberal", "God", coddling folks, derogatory nicknames for those in political office, etc. are used on this board. These have little to nothing to do with the second amendment.

I completely agree with this. Try to separate gun politics from everything else. More gun owners = good. You might disagree with everything else, but how can more gun owners be a bad thing?

CavTrooper
09-08-2009, 8:56 PM
For what it is worth, I've bought stuff off of Calgunners around five times, and only one guy was white.


Ive met a whole bunch of calgunners, only one was white. I really dont think theres very many white people on calguns, but the asian contingent is well represented!

bradph
09-08-2009, 8:57 PM
I'm a 1/2 Japanese scientist with a graduate degree, working in the pharmaceutical industry. I wear a white lab coat at work daily.

I'm a huge believer of the entire Bill of Rights, including the Second Amendment.

Our founding fathers were wiser on an order of magnitude relative to the lawmakers and politicians we have in California today. That is a time tested fact.

Brad

professorhard
09-08-2009, 9:13 PM
I've only met a few calgunners but I will admit that they have all been white.

andalusi
09-09-2009, 4:56 AM
What I would like is if you are not a traditional gun owner, do a quick intro, tell us about which group you are part of and how we could outreach to those communities.

Why not? I'm Mexican-American, Muslim, progressive (to the point Democrats are just the less conservative party to me rather than an actually liberal one), and a member of both the NRA and the ACLU. While I currently practice law, my first and abiding love is medieval Islamic and early medieval European history.

I have little to add that Woodguy, Coinstar, Mike d'Ocla, and Guayaque haven't articulated quite well already. They're right: the gun owning community can be unnecessarily divisive. Often those against gun ownership are really more focused on what they see from gun owners rather than fear of the gun itself. You will not win hearts and minds by calling the average Bay Area denizen a Communist or hippy, but you will certainly make our jobs harder when we try to convince our friends and colleagues that sane, respectful gun owners are the norm.

Gator Monroe
09-09-2009, 8:27 AM
I think that one of the biggest problems with 2A politics is the way that it's been completely combined with so many other issues in an attempt to continue the political divide in this country. Look at the number of times that "Socialist", "Progressive", "Liberal", "God", coddling folks, derogatory nicknames for those in political office, etc. are used on this board. These have little to nothing to do with the second amendment.

I'm a white male, Democrat, with socialist and progressive leanings. I'm also own a number of guns, shoot regularly and am a strong proponent of the second amendment. Iíve introduced a number of other people to shooting and I also discuss 2A issues with people frequently to educate them on both our second amendment rights and on the current state of the legal landscape surrounding those rights.

I can't in good conscience become a single issue voter and view everything through the litmus test of 2A. There are other issues out there which are important also. Success for the 2A cause shouldn't be getting the GOP to win, it should be making gun rights a political non-issue which both parties can support. By continuing to define 2a rights the way they are now, the movement is losing the support of many Democrats who could be brought into the cause.

I don't think that most non-gun people are afraid of guns, they are afraid of gun owners. The image of most 2a supporters is of people who are single issue fanatics with no perspective, no interest in compromise on any subject, and an inability to carry on a civil discourse on 2a rights. That image is just reinforced by the types of comments frequently found on this board. How childish is it to refer to our duly elected political leaders by derogatory nicknames? Does this really help us get our 2a arguments taken seriously? Disagree with a politicianís political stance all you want, but at least be respectful of others. Just take a look at the excellent legal filings supported by CalGuns recently. They were strong, legally sound arguments which were on topic while still being respectful of the opposition. This is the type of discourse which makes us seem competent, trustworthy and deserving of a seat at the table of public debate.
So when your party takes yours & everyone elses Firearms rights away you will still have your other issues , We WONT .

Gator Monroe
09-09-2009, 8:31 AM
I find the extreme bigotry and sterotyping here highly offensive.

Gun owners are supposed to be whitebread redneck hillbilly hicks?

Its even worse when the sterotyping comes from within the supposed "gun owning" community.

Deriding American Culture & values & putting down christian & Jewish folks for who they are is trendy and almost to the point of being PC & expected from folks on the left , We dont put Socialist libera left leaning folks down as much as people as we do their voting habits.

Sgt Raven
09-09-2009, 8:42 AM
Some Americans are gun grabbers (We know which political party they are) .

There are gun grabbers in all the parties, including your beloved GOP. :eek: :rolleyes:

Sunwolf
09-09-2009, 9:19 AM
I think that one of the biggest problems with 2A politics is the way that it's been completely combined with so many other issues in an attempt to continue the political divide in this country. Look at the number of times that "Socialist", "Progressive", "Liberal", "God", coddling folks, derogatory nicknames for those in political office, etc. are used on this board. These have little to nothing to do with the second amendment.

I'm a white male, Democrat, with socialist and progressive leanings. I'm also own a number of guns, shoot regularly and am a strong proponent of the second amendment. Iíve introduced a number of other people to shooting and I also discuss 2A issues with people frequently to educate them on both our second amendment rights and on the current state of the legal landscape surrounding those rights.

I can't in good conscience become a single issue voter and view everything through the litmus test of 2A. There are other issues out there which are important also. Success for the 2A cause shouldn't be getting the GOP to win, it should be making gun rights a political non-issue which both parties can support. By continuing to define 2a rights the way they are now, the movement is losing the support of many Democrats who could be brought into the cause.

I don't think that most non-gun people are afraid of guns, they are afraid of gun owners. The image of most 2a supporters is of people who are single issue fanatics with no perspective, no interest in compromise on any subject, and an inability to carry on a civil discourse on 2a rights. That image is just reinforced by the types of comments frequently found on this board. How childish is it to refer to our duly elected political leaders by derogatory nicknames? Does this really help us get our 2a arguments taken seriously? Disagree with a politicianís political stance all you want, but at least be respectful of others. Just take a look at the excellent legal filings supported by CalGuns recently. They were strong, legally sound arguments which were on topic while still being respectful of the opposition. This is the type of discourse which makes us seem competent, trustworthy and deserving of a seat at the table of public debate.

Your party obviously needs alot of work on 2nd amendment issues.The progressives seem to be the first to go on a personal attack,I have been called everything from a redneck to trailer park trash and southern white trash.Any disagreement on any issue brings on the insults and abuse.Respect is a two way street and the progressives need alot of work in respect 101.

wash
09-09-2009, 9:37 AM
I talked to a female Vietnamese co-worker a while ago.

English is her second language but she is very fluent.

She told me that she had to do a mandatory military service or training in Vietnam. When it came to the rifle training, she refused. She wouldn't even touch a gun. The reason why is crazy.

She wasn't afraid of the gun, she was afraid of herself. She thought that if she picked up a gun she would start murdering everyone around her.

Other than that she seemed like a rational person.

I don't go around talking about my hobbies at work, so she didn't know I'm a gun owner.

pullnshoot25
09-09-2009, 9:38 AM
I might be more of a typical gun owner. 1/2 Ukrainian, 1/2 Italian, pasty white, Catholic and Libertarian. My last name means "freedom lover/freedom fighter" so that is pretty cool. My love of guns was not passed on from my father, it was passed on from my brother, so that is pretty cool too.

That's all I gots.

k1dude
09-09-2009, 10:22 AM
Asian + American Indian + White + Conservative. I'm a dark colored mutt.

Theseus
09-09-2009, 11:09 AM
I talked to a female Vietnamese co-worker a while ago.

English is her second language but she is very fluent.

She told me that she had to do a mandatory military service or training in Vietnam. When it came to the rifle training, she refused. She wouldn't even touch a gun. The reason why is crazy.

She wasn't afraid of the gun, she was afraid of herself. She thought that if she picked up a gun she would start murdering everyone around her.

Other than that she seemed like a rational person.

I don't go around talking about my hobbies at work, so she didn't know I'm a gun owner.

Because she apparently believed the "liberal" hype that guns turn people into murdering psychopaths.

I have had several people say the same or similar thing to me. . . They feared they didn't have the control and would do something wrong with it.

I believe this is part of the reason so many people think that we as gun owners are scary. . . we must be unbalanced like them and therefore we must all be prevented from having guns.

wash
09-09-2009, 12:01 PM
For her it was the Vietnamese Communist hype.

And it's called projecting, a problem some people have on both sides of the fence.

KylaGWolf
09-09-2009, 12:13 PM
Why not? I'm Mexican-American, Muslim, progressive (to the point Democrats are just the less conservative party to me rather than an actually liberal one), and a member of both the NRA and the ACLU. While I currently practice law, my first and abiding love is medieval Islamic and early medieval European history.

I have little to add that Woodguy, Coinstar, Mike d'Ocla, and Guayaque haven't articulated quite well already. They're right: the gun owning community can be unnecessarily divisive. Often those against gun ownership are really more focused on what they see from gun owners rather than fear of the gun itself. You will not win hearts and minds by calling the average Bay Area denizen a Communist or hippy, but you will certainly make our jobs harder when we try to convince our friends and colleagues that sane, respectful gun owners are the norm.

Very well put. I like your hobbies of studying history. I used to live in the northern reaches of the bay area and now down in San Diego.

If you go by the way I dress one would assume I am a hippie. I prefer to wear longer skirts. Then again I am a 6'1" female so the longer length makes more sense. I think that is part of the problem is everyone is so busy judging from the surface they don't always take the time to see the layers of what someone is like underneath. Sometimes it is pulling back a layer or two that common ground can be found and maybe just maybe change someones opinion of something. I have said it before on this thread and others calling names and belittling someones belief system is not going to do us any good at all. There are bad people in each of the political parties. And while I am conservative in many ways in others I am not. I am also not a single issue voter because to me when you do that you hamstring yourself. (no I did not vote for any of the ones in office now).

KylaGWolf
09-09-2009, 12:16 PM
I might be more of a typical gun owner. 1/2 Ukrainian, 1/2 Italian, pasty white, Catholic and Libertarian. My last name means "freedom lover/freedom fighter" so that is pretty cool. My love of guns was not passed on from my father, it was passed on from my brother, so that is pretty cool too.

That's all I gots.

lol Nate I love you dearly as a friend but you are not a typical gun owner :D. You are definitely one of a kind.

KylaGWolf
09-09-2009, 12:17 PM
Wash I think you might be right about how your female coworker thinks of guns. Maybe offer to take her out to learn to shoot to show her its not this big evil thing.

wash
09-09-2009, 12:40 PM
I no longer work with her.

I agree with your sentiment but I would much rather invite people who don't have an irrational fear of guns to the range.

For all I know, if I were to hand her a gun I could wind up getting shot.

I'm also a strong believer in separating my hobbies from my work until I know that no one above me in the organization is an anti. When I'm CEO, I'll hang rifles in my office.

My #1 rule is CYA so I'm not as vocal as I could be.

Merle
09-09-2009, 12:47 PM
Brought a stripped OLL to my a relatives house in order to put in a LPK. Just to see what she knew, I showed it to her from halfway across the room and asked "do you know what this is?"

"Yes, it's a part from an M-16. The lower part, near where you hold it"

This was a completely stripped lower and there was no grip. So I ask "How do you know?"

"I grew up in a warzone" was her reply.

After it was done, she asked if she could borrow a rifle to shoot racoons. They were tipping over her plant containers.

This woman is in her 50's and came from SE Asia. From what I gather, many Asian immigrants fully support gun rights as they've seen the damage corrupt governments cause.

mmartin
09-09-2009, 2:24 PM
She told me that she had to do a mandatory military service or training in Vietnam. When it came to the rifle training, she refused. She wouldn't even touch a gun. The reason why is crazy.

She wasn't afraid of the gun, she was afraid of herself. She thought that if she picked up a gun she would start murdering everyone around her.

Other than that she seemed like a rational person.

which goes to my point that women are afraid of the gun... I know women who think the same way... not because they really think they are latent mass murderers, but because they have so much fear wrapped around the gun... that guns kill innocent people... that they feel as if the gun will make them do it. not a rational thought, but an emotional reaction... that they won't be able to control the gun, and the gun is evil and violent. that picking up the gun is enough to allow the gun to make them do it. the idea quickly devolves into how they'd feel if they killed someone... someone innocent... say a child... say their own child. their massive discomfort with the anticipated guilt and remorse around that clouds their thinking so badly that they can't consider picking up the gun without the feeling of having murdered an innocent child. not rational. none the less, for women who are fearful and are plugged into emotion first and rational thought last, it's a real experience.

the only antidote I know is to get them to consider how they would feel if someone attacked and killed that same child as they stood by and did nothing... even though they could have stopped it... because they wouldn't pick up a gun that was at hand. if they can get there, plug into the maternal protective instincts, they can get to understanding the intent and control is with the person, not the gun, and now you have something to work with.

megan

radioburning
09-09-2009, 2:59 PM
I am a Klingon.
Heghlu'meH QaQ jajvam! (Today is a good day to die!)
:D


Hehehe....nerd.:p

radioburning
09-09-2009, 3:04 PM
My mom didn't know how to speak english when she came here(Indonesian), and my dad didn't know how to stay sober(Irish).

Lyte-
09-09-2009, 3:48 PM
Okay this is going to be a little rushed because I am about to get off work but I am ;

Black
Asian
bi/ multi racial
and female

So I it alot of non traditional gun right activist catagories.

I grew up in San Diego for the most part

Military brat with a gunners mate as a father.

I have dual california and texas residency


Honestly my best suggestion for reaching out to the minorities is to keep all the extremist (and there are plenty of them on this site) away from these out reach programs/ sessions that you plan to have. Many of what I read here perpetuates the stereotype and thus your not going to win over a lot of minories (but for some reason I think thatís perfectly fine with those people)

PatriotnMore
09-09-2009, 4:00 PM
What is your definition of an extremist?


Honestly my best suggestion for reaching out to the minorities is to keep all the extremist (and there are plenty of them on this site) away from these out reach programs/ sessions that you plan to have. Many of what I read here perpetuates the stereotype and thus your not going to win over a lot of minories (but for some reason I think thatís perfectly fine with those people)

andalusi
09-09-2009, 4:09 PM
I think that is part of the problem is everyone is so busy judging from the surface they don't always take the time to see the layers of what someone is like underneath. Sometimes it is pulling back a layer or two that common ground can be found and maybe just maybe change someones opinion of something.

You nailed it exactly. Dealing with people as stereotypes rather than individuals doesn't help anybody.

I have said it before on this thread and others calling names and belittling someones belief system is not going to do us any good at all. There are bad people in each of the political parties. And while I am conservative in many ways in others I am not. I am also not a single issue voter because to me when you do that you hamstring yourself. (no I did not vote for any of the ones in office now).

Our thoughts coincide here as well: while I am firm supporter of Second Amendment rights, I can't let that be the only issue I consider. I also never saw the point of toeing the party line in everything. When only two major parties exist on any level that's significant, their platforms are necessarily ones of compromise: constituents often have to settle for good enough rather than what they want exactly.

k1dude
09-09-2009, 5:53 PM
Honestly my best suggestion for reaching out to the minorities is to keep all the extremist (and there are plenty of them on this site) away from these out reach programs/ sessions that you plan to have. Many of what I read here perpetuates the stereotype and thus your not going to win over a lot of minories (but for some reason I think thatís perfectly fine with those people)

I'm curious as well. I have yet to read what I would consider extremist views on this site. Granted I haven't been a member for long. But, other than bickering and trolls, I have found the discourse here on this site to be civil and rational. The vast majority of posters seem to be well grounded and logical. I have read an occasional boneheaded post, but the rebuttals usually silence the offender quickly. Perhaps you are too sensitive? Or perhaps you are reading too much into the threads?

lioneaglegriffin
09-09-2009, 6:16 PM
I'm African American, Irish and three tribes of Native American, a Student, and a Conservative Democrat (because liberal republican sounds silly) but basically a moderate. I live in So cal in southern Los Angeles. As for reaching out to my community the 2A isn't very high up on the list of priorities.

Many of the pro gun blacks and browns i know are usually affiliated with the military either by being current military service, a retired vet or family of the afore mentioned. Others are rather neutral to firearms, many blacks & browns are opposed to having a firearm in the house but i don't think they care what other law abiding citizens do with their firearms. Those who are anti-gun are usually in high crime areas and even then many recognize that a criminal killed their "baby" and not the gun. So to summarize either the criminals have guns, or the military families have them, everyone else is pretty much neutral when it comes to lawful possession and carry of firearms IMO.

CHS
09-09-2009, 6:36 PM
You nailed it exactly. Dealing with people as stereotypes rather than individuals doesn't help anybody.


All I know is, when a mexican walks into the store I know that it's a complete waste of time showing off the AR's. I go straight to the AK's for them :)

Look, stereotypes do exist for a reason but aren't necessarily negative. Sometimes, when there is a large cultural gap, you need to appeal to the stereotype.

lioneaglegriffin
09-09-2009, 6:43 PM
All I know is, when a mexican walks into the store I know that it's a complete waste of time showing off the AR's. I go straight to the AK's for them :)

Look, stereotypes do exist for a reason but aren't necessarily negative. Sometimes, when there is a large cultural gap, you need to appeal to the stereotype.

my view on stereotypes is they got started somewhere, so there is some truth to them. but you can't fall into the thinking that it applies to everyone. i.e blacks love fried chicken. I sure as hell do! especially if its made by grandma. any time that woman touches food angels sing. :)

andalusi
09-09-2009, 11:25 PM
my view on stereotypes is they got started somewhere, so there is some truth to them. but you can't fall into the thinking that it applies to everyone. i.e blacks love fried chicken. I sure as hell do! especially if its made by grandma. any time that woman touches food angels sing. :)

The thing is, though, who doesn't love fried chicken? That stereotype never made sense to me.

cbn620
09-09-2009, 11:37 PM
I don't think it's so much race that defines the non-traditional gun owner. Worldviews, perspectives, ideals, up-bringings, social class, political persuasions... all these things better define the non-traditional gun owner. And more importantly, these help the cause far more. Honestly, what kind of diversity is there if we get an army of black, Latino and Asian people backing us if they're all registered Republicans, Christian, anti-abortion, anti-immigration, pro-war, love-it-or-leave-it conservatives. I'm not criticizing these views, or at least I'm not trying to (forgive me if it sounds like I am), I'm just saying I think the movement of pro-2A people in California would be better served by diversity of opinions/personalities than simply the color of ones skin.

People who all think alike but are from all different ethnic backgrounds have more in common than do a group of people, even all whites, who think radically differently. It's our opinions and how we view the world that make up our personalities, and it's our personalities that truly make us individual; thus diversity of individuals is far better represented by diversity of ideals.

The only thing we need to agree on is the 2nd amendment. I would gladly stand next to a Leninist/Trotskyist if he were pro-2A. I think that's what our movement needs, even if we have to keep non-2A politics to a don't-ask-don't-tell policy as far as group discussion on those subjects goes.

We need to stop shouting down people who think differently. That's the bottom line.

pullnshoot25
09-09-2009, 11:47 PM
Brought a stripped OLL to my a relatives house in order to put in a LPK. Just to see what she knew, I showed it to her from halfway across the room and asked "do you know what this is?"

"Yes, it's a part from an M-16. The lower part, near where you hold it"

This was a completely stripped lower and there was no grip. So I ask "How do you know?"

"I grew up in a warzone" was her reply.

After it was done, she asked if she could borrow a rifle to shoot racoons. They were tipping over her plant containers.

This woman is in her 50's and came from SE Asia. From what I gather, many Asian immigrants fully support gun rights as they've seen the damage corrupt governments cause.

Rad story. Bolded part rings true for a lot of slavic people that I know. Lots of libs in my family but I am working on converting them :)

cbn620
09-10-2009, 12:00 AM
I think that one of the biggest problems with 2A politics is the way that it's been completely combined with so many other issues in an attempt to continue the political divide in this country. Look at the number of times that "Socialist", "Progressive", "Liberal", "God", coddling folks, derogatory nicknames for those in political office, etc. are used on this board. These have little to nothing to do with the second amendment.

I'm a white male, Democrat, with socialist and progressive leanings. I'm also own a number of guns, shoot regularly and am a strong proponent of the second amendment. Iíve introduced a number of other people to shooting and I also discuss 2A issues with people frequently to educate them on both our second amendment rights and on the current state of the legal landscape surrounding those rights.

I can't in good conscience become a single issue voter and view everything through the litmus test of 2A. There are other issues out there which are important also. Success for the 2A cause shouldn't be getting the GOP to win, it should be making gun rights a political non-issue which both parties can support. By continuing to define 2a rights the way they are now, the movement is losing the support of many Democrats who could be brought into the cause.

I don't think that most non-gun people are afraid of guns, they are afraid of gun owners. The image of most 2a supporters is of people who are single issue fanatics with no perspective, no interest in compromise on any subject, and an inability to carry on a civil discourse on 2a rights. That image is just reinforced by the types of comments frequently found on this board. How childish is it to refer to our duly elected political leaders by derogatory nicknames? Does this really help us get our 2a arguments taken seriously? Disagree with a politicianís political stance all you want, but at least be respectful of others. Just take a look at the excellent legal filings supported by CalGuns recently. They were strong, legally sound arguments which were on topic while still being respectful of the opposition. This is the type of discourse which makes us seem competent, trustworthy and deserving of a seat at the table of public debate.

I have been called a libertarian socialist, and I too am a white male. I'm registered to vote but independent (no party). Good to hear from like-minded people here!

Merle
09-10-2009, 12:05 AM
Rad story. Bolded part rings true for a lot of slavic people that I know. Lots of libs in my family but I am working on converting them :)

Funny you say that, but that's the other side of the family tree (and country). One of the first gifts from an uncle: wood chuck tail from when he was out testing 7mm loads in PA.

lioneaglegriffin
09-10-2009, 12:07 AM
The thing is, though, who doesn't love fried chicken? That stereotype never made sense to me.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pyW6w5B7Aw

will others get upset about it?

Exposed
09-10-2009, 12:13 AM
In the time I have been a gun owner, I notice the 3 races that are pro 2A and arming themselves to the teeth mare than any other group are White (Anglos), Asians and Latinos. Combined they make up about 90% of gun owners, at least in So Cal that I have seen. The other 10% is everyone else. I wonder what the correlation between the 3 are that makes "US" so much more into the hobby than anyone else.

colossians323
09-10-2009, 5:26 AM
In the time I have been a gun owner, I notice the 3 races that are pro 2A and arming themselves to the teeth mare than any other group are White (Anglos), Asians and Latinos. Combined they make up about 90% of gun owners, at least in So Cal that I have seen. The other 10% is everyone else. I wonder what the correlation between the 3 are that makes "US" so much more into the hobby than anyone else.

Yo...........................cuz thu rest of me and my homiez already armed ..............................ya feel me?

cousinkix1953
09-10-2009, 6:55 AM
Ahem!...your statement is not true (http://blog.aclu.org/2008/07/01/heller-decision-and-the-second-amendment/).
With the notable exception of the Nevada Chapter -ACLU considers the 2nd Amendment a collective (state militia) right, not an individual right.
Being an ACLU card carrying member you should have been aware of that. And maybe you should reconsider paying your membership to an organization that doesn't respect the most fundamental human right given to us by God and the US Constitution: the right of self defense.
Same in Louisiana! They sued a public university for harassing "Students for Concealed Carry" and treating them like a pariah...

cousinkix1953
09-10-2009, 7:11 AM
I'm of the majority here....though married to an Asian...whom I'm trying to convert to the dark side.....She think guns kill....I'm trying to get her to understand that people kill, stupid kills, but guns sit there until you pick them up and pull the trigger.....

Supposedly one of these days my cop buddy is going to teach her to shoot....I hope.
Remember this the next time you guys are watching the evening news on TV. The anchors will talk about gang bangers stabbing each other on the street. Tell her that knives kill and that the kitchen drawer is full of them. Same story with drunken drivers. Cars kill people too; so why does she have one?

A gun cannot load itself and shoot somebody without human help. Knives don't magically escape from a kitchen drawer and stab somebody all by themselves. You'll not likely ever see a car drive itself and hit somebody either. Only a brainless fool refuses to recognize that bad people are the common denominator in all of these cases...

Hunter4life1990
09-10-2009, 11:47 AM
^^^amen brother! i tell people the same thing and it seems to put it into a pretty good perspective for them.i always say that when someone murders somebody with a gun do they put the gun in jail?no because its an inaddimant object that can only do what a human being makes it do.if guns kill people than so do bats,plastic bags,fists,feet,boots,tall bulidings,saws, see where im going? anything that a human can pick up and swing or push some one off of or stuff someone into kills,according to their logic(more like lack of logic)

GuyW
09-10-2009, 1:15 PM
I would gladly stand next to a Leninist/Trotskyist if he were pro-2A.

Yeah, I know you're trying to make a point. But seriously, a Leninist/Trotskyist only wants a gun (legal or not) so he can shoot your @$$ and usher in the Glorious People Republik....

.

Lyte-
09-10-2009, 1:50 PM
someone previously pointed it out... but the simple answer would be someone who believes that everyone has to believe the exact same thing they believe other wise they feel they have to agressively change your point of view.

Sort of like Jehovah witness who keep coming to your door when you say your not interested, Extreme Muslims, extreme catholics, Gator Monroe.

Just a few examples

Lyte-
09-10-2009, 1:55 PM
I'm curious as well. I have yet to read what I would consider extremist views on this site. Granted I haven't been a member for long. But, other than bickering and trolls, I have found the discourse here on this site to be civil and rational. The vast majority of posters seem to be well grounded and logical. I have read an occasional boneheaded post, but the rebuttals usually silence the offender quickly. Perhaps you are too sensitive? Or perhaps you are reading too much into the threads?

I am not to sensitive, but I can see where they would be putting off the people that the OP is trying to target with this post.

The OP asked for suggestions so I made one, I am not saying thats the only way I am just saying it something to consider.

PatriotnMore
09-10-2009, 4:18 PM
I just would like clarity. If I feel that as an American, and someone who enjoys the freedoms provided under the law and Constitution, that we should all uphold and defend that Constitution, does that make me an extremist?

someone previously pointed it out... but the simple answer would be someone who believes that everyone has to believe the exact same thing they believe other wise they feel they have to agressively change your point of view.

Sort of like Jehovah witness who keep coming to your door when you say your not interested, Extreme Muslims, extreme catholics, Gator Monroe.

Just a few examples

wildhawker
09-10-2009, 4:21 PM
I just would like clarity. If I feel that as an American, and someone who enjoys the freedoms provided under the law and Constitution, that we should all uphold and defend that Constitution, does that make me an extremist?

No. Looking for an argument with someone trying to express her perspective *in hopes of helping us to modify our message to be more effective for RKBA* does make you *extremely* unhelpful.

PatriotnMore
09-10-2009, 7:54 PM
Excuse me, I am not looking for an argument, I am asking an honest question. I don't believe I have insulted anyone, and I certainly was not addressing you.


No. Looking for an argument with someone trying to express her perspective *in hopes of helping us to modify our message to be more effective for RKBA* does make you *extremely* unhelpful.

wildhawker
09-10-2009, 8:08 PM
You are now.

Lyte politely offered her perspective and some suggestions to help us connect with others outside our predominant demographic; that is what we're asking for. You may not like it, and you may read something into it that set wrong with you- I understand that may be the case. However, if we only hear those we agree with we're not learning very much and we sure won't expand and reach those individuals and orgs we *need* to in order to get the results we're all looking for in Sacramento. The only way to we'll be able to show that RKBA is about more than conservative white men is to listen to those who are not conservative white men.

Excuse me, I am not looking for an argument, I am asking an honest question. I don't believe I have insulted anyone, and I certainly was not addressing you.

wildhawker
09-10-2009, 8:10 PM
Thank you so much for these comments. I hope you would be interested in working with other Calgunners to develop our outreach program. Please PM me if you'd like to discuss this further.

This is what we need people!!

which goes to my point that women are afraid of the gun... I know women who think the same way... not because they really think they are latent mass murderers, but because they have so much fear wrapped around the gun... that guns kill innocent people... that they feel as if the gun will make them do it. not a rational thought, but an emotional reaction... that they won't be able to control the gun, and the gun is evil and violent. that picking up the gun is enough to allow the gun to make them do it. the idea quickly devolves into how they'd feel if they killed someone... someone innocent... say a child... say their own child. their massive discomfort with the anticipated guilt and remorse around that clouds their thinking so badly that they can't consider picking up the gun without the feeling of having murdered an innocent child. not rational. none the less, for women who are fearful and are plugged into emotion first and rational thought last, it's a real experience.

the only antidote I know is to get them to consider how they would feel if someone attacked and killed that same child as they stood by and did nothing... even though they could have stopped it... because they wouldn't pick up a gun that was at hand. if they can get there, plug into the maternal protective instincts, they can get to understanding the intent and control is with the person, not the gun, and now you have something to work with.

megan

KylaGWolf
09-10-2009, 8:27 PM
mmartin...you made some very good points. I have also heard the comments what if I drop it might go off and kill someone. I have also heard the same things you have. I have to admit to being female and worried about what if I drop the gun. Heck I have dropped mine. I can say when my HK hit the ground all it did was make a loud thunk and bounced once. It took someone willing to take me out to teach me to shoot for me to see that guns were not this evil scary thing to be afraid of.

Lyte-
09-10-2009, 8:33 PM
I just would like clarity. If I feel that as an American, and someone who enjoys the freedoms provided under the law and Constitution, that we should all uphold and defend that Constitution, does that make me an extremist?



No, that makes you an american.

If you said everyone who isn't American needs to become American because its just wrong to be Canadian and you walked around trying to force people to become American citizen then you might be an extremist.

wildhawker
09-10-2009, 9:28 PM
I can say when my HK hit the ground it did was make a loud thunk and bounced once.

That's what you get for buying a plastic gun :p

PatriotnMore
09-10-2009, 10:23 PM
There is no issue with me and the way in which Lyte offered her perspective, so your point is moot. A statement was made from the poster regarding extremists, I asked for clarification.

It seems you are the one looking for an argument, and coming to assumptions based on speculation. Furthermore, I think Lyte can speak for herself without your involvement in the discussion we were having.

As far as listening to other, that is exactly why I asked the question, I would like to know what constitutes an extremist, and how those who post in this topic percieve and feel about others they see as a different demographic.



You are now.

Lyte politely offered her perspective and some suggestions to help us connect with others outside our predominant demographic; that is what we're asking for. You may not like it, and you may read something into it that set wrong with you- I understand that may be the case. However, if we only hear those we agree with we're not learning very much and we sure won't expand and reach those individuals and orgs we *need* to in order to get the results we're all looking for in Sacramento. The only way to we'll be able to show that RKBA is about more than conservative white men is to listen to those who are not conservative white men.

PatriotnMore
09-10-2009, 10:24 PM
Thank you for the answer. I think I understand your perspective.

No, that makes you an american.

If you said everyone who isn't American needs to become American because its just wrong to be Canadian and you walked around trying to force people to become American citizen then you might be an extremist.

cbn620
09-10-2009, 11:47 PM
Yeah, I know you're trying to make a point. But seriously, a Leninist/Trotskyist only wants a gun (legal or not) so he can shoot your @$$ and usher in the Glorious People Republik....

.

Actually I have met many socialists of this ilk who are at least not opposed to some kind of individual right to bear arms. The gun issue is really not as polarizing between left and right as the Democrats and Republicans make it out to be.

mmartin
09-11-2009, 8:00 AM
Thank you so much for these comments. I hope you would be interested in working with other Calgunners to develop our outreach program. Please PM me if you'd like to discuss this further.

This is what we need people!!

my pleasure, any time.
pm on it's way. I'm all in.
megan

CHS
09-11-2009, 8:11 AM
Actually I have met many socialists of this ilk who are at least not opposed to some kind of individual right to bear arms. The gun issue is really not as polarizing between left and right as the Democrats and Republicans make it out to be.

The problem is the official platform of the Democratic party basically says they are opposed to guns. They talk about "common sense" gun regulation that makes no sense and they talk about banning semi-automatic firearms in common use that have black furniture.

Both the libertarian party and republican party's official platform recognize it as an individual right.

It would be less polarizing if the Democratic party, as a whole, officially recognized the 2A as a right, without adding caveat's like "well, it's a right, but only for hunting and not for semi-automatics or handguns".

It would be less polarizing if it weren't democrats constantly screaming for gun control laws 10 times as often as republicans.

When Heller was decided, republicans got in front of camera and said "well yeah. DUH!" while democrats got in front of camera and had the nerve to tell the american people that we were now all less safe because of it.

mmartin
09-11-2009, 8:22 AM
mmartin...you made some very good points. I have also heard the comments what if I drop it might go off and kill someone. I have also heard the same things you have. I have to admit to being female and worried about what if I drop the gun. Heck I have dropped mine. I can say when my HK hit the ground all it did was make a loud thunk and bounced once. It took someone willing to take me out to teach me to shoot for me to see that guns were not this evil scary thing to be afraid of.

I'll admit to that same fear, although it's pretty low level anymore. seems there's an antidote to most fear... usually experience. maybe there's a practial experience in here that would help...
ok, now don't y'all get your bloomers in a bunch, I'm just thinking out loud here, but maybe deliberately dropping a gun (no not your favorite) with a snap cap in it on a suitable surface (say a rubber mat) is a useful illustration as part of a class. you can tell people all day long "no, nothing horrible will happen" but if you show them, they may believe you. maybe a discussion of what guns are not so susceptible to going off if dropped (say, a revolver) and why they're safer under those circumstances would be a useful as part of addressing these fears.
leaving the fears unaddressed just lets them incubate and grow, so getting them out and handled point-for-point matters, especially to those with high fear reactions.

I'm thinking a good outreach program for fearful people would have a way of addressing all the "what ifs"...
what if I drop the gun?
what if it accidentally goes off?
what if I actually have to shoot someone?
what if I accidentally shoot someone?
what if they take it away from me and use it on me?
what if it's in my purse and I can't get to it when I need it?

and once past those,
what if I can't get to my gun when I need it because it's locked up?
a whole secondary line of exploration there...

megan

mmartin
09-11-2009, 8:42 AM
... I have to admit to being female and worried about what if I drop the gun. .... It took someone willing to take me out to teach me to shoot for me to see that guns were not this evil scary thing to be afraid of.

so I'm interested in your story here... were you totally afraid / anti-gun before you learned? or just nervous?
what was the thing that got you past that to actually be willing to go and learn?
megan

wash
09-11-2009, 2:09 PM
Every gun I own has a sufficient safety to avoid firing if dropped.

My glock has the two part trigger, my single action revolver has a transfer bar safety (and I wouldn't carry it cocked), all of my rifles have selectors that pass a function test.

The only minor worry I have is dropping a rifle with the selector in the fire position, but the military style triggers I've got probably wouldn't budge any way.

If you practice only the very basics of safe gun handling, a kaboom from double charged ammo is probably more likely to hurt you or anyone else and that is very very rare.

Merle
09-11-2009, 2:18 PM
There's a difference between fear, and risk. Without knowledge, it's fear. With knowledge, it becomes a risk.

There's always a chance of a double, AD or ND. If you know the likelihood and the causes, it's just a risk. If you don't know what causes a bullet to fire or how modern firearms stop a firing pin from hitting the primer, it's a fear.

Education solves the fear portion, and some of the best education is experience. Training reduces the risk portion.

KylaGWolf
09-11-2009, 9:24 PM
so I'm interested in your story here... were you totally afraid / anti-gun before you learned? or just nervous?
what was the thing that got you past that to actually be willing to go and learn?
megan

lol my story is actually pretty boring.

For the most part nervous. When I first left my ex husband when he was stationed in Texas I moved in with friends that had guns (rifles for hunting) and they said they would teach me and it never happened. I moved back to Northern CA in 1993. None of my friends there were really pro gun...till I went to college in 1997 one of my friends and her husband had guns but between school and my internships and their schedule shooting never came upl Then I met my now boyfriend and he is very pro gun as is his dad. So when I moved to San Diego live with him there were several handguns and rifles in the house. Although most of his were either too heavy (XD 40 and a 45 but can't remember what brand) for me to use one handed or I couldn't pull back the slide. My daughter at one time was interested but has now become anti gun :( hopefully she will change her mind again. So what finally decided it was between the crazy neighbor we had and the fact I got attacked by a classmate at my school. The school officials talked me out of pressing charges although there is documentation on the incident. They didn't bother to kick him out either....and in May he brought a knife to school they still haven't kicked him out. So in April I decided I needed to find a gun I could use if it came down to it. Besides I had the money to finally spend :) So my boyfriend and a good friend of ours (he works for ICE) started taking me to the range to learn to shoot and rented different guns for me to try out. So we did a lot of shopping and it came down to three guns. HK USP 9mm compact (the one I got), Glock 19 and a Sig 2022 9mm. LOL I am hooked and hoping to buy my next gun in October. I am thinking of a 22 so I can buy ammunition cheaper for practice.

And as of Thursday I will be in Nevada at Front Sight taking a four day self defensive shooting class :D shooting 800 rounds in four days. I am looking forward to it but also scared or I should say more afraid of looking stupid. As our friend put it bring a box of band aids. LOL so I have two boxes one for me and one for the boyfriend.

KylaGWolf
09-11-2009, 9:28 PM
I'll admit to that same fear, although it's pretty low level anymore. seems there's an antidote to most fear... usually experience. maybe there's a practial experience in here that would help...
ok, now don't y'all get your bloomers in a bunch, I'm just thinking out loud here, but maybe deliberately dropping a gun (no not your favorite) with a snap cap in it on a suitable surface (say a rubber mat) is a useful illustration as part of a class. you can tell people all day long "no, nothing horrible will happen" but if you show them, they may believe you. maybe a discussion of what guns are not so susceptible to going off if dropped (say, a revolver) and why they're safer under those circumstances would be a useful as part of addressing these fears.
leaving the fears unaddressed just lets them incubate and grow, so getting them out and handled point-for-point matters, especially to those with high fear reactions.

I'm thinking a good outreach program for fearful people would have a way of addressing all the "what ifs"...
what if I drop the gun?
what if it accidentally goes off?
what if I actually have to shoot someone?
what if I accidentally shoot someone?
what if they take it away from me and use it on me?
what if it's in my purse and I can't get to it when I need it?

and once past those,
what if I can't get to my gun when I need it because it's locked up?
a whole secondary line of exploration there...

megan

You know you must be in my head. I mentioned some of this stuff to Wildhawker when we met here for the town hall meeting. You know after my trip if you want to meet up for coffee I am more than happy to meet up with you. We can exchange phone numbers if you want. If so PM me here and we can discuss that part further. :)

Phanuel
09-11-2009, 10:20 PM
The problem is the official platform of the Democratic party basically says they are opposed to guns. They talk about "common sense" gun regulation that makes no sense and they talk about banning semi-automatic firearms in common use that have black furniture.

And the problem with the Republican party is their refusal to give a woman her right to choose.

See what I did there? Each party has a core belief, and it comes down to some significance to the other party.

I am a white Democrat, and I agree with the others in this thread. Everytime I venture into the 2A section of this site I get indignant and have less desire to help this cause as I am treated as a traitor to this country for not blindly following only the 2A as my main issue.

Why do I want to help people (with something I love) when they hate me for my other core beliefs and concerns? You guys need to stop slandering everyone who is slightly different than yourselves, it only hurts you further. You cannot 'remove' everyone who isn't exactly like you and then go on your merry 2A way. You need to include those who are different and share a common love of the 2A in order to gain ground.

I see Gator post and I go blind with rage at his hatred of my 'kind' and his spirited, limited and biased assault does nothing to help grow 2A acceptance when others see the 2A crowd as thousands of him.

I'm done, and running from this 2A forum again because I'm so disgusted reading 90% of the responses to pressing issues.

wildhawker
09-11-2009, 10:28 PM
No headway will be made if alternative views choose not to endure. I do think we (the gun owner community) could do a better job of listening more and talking less.

That said, bdsm was pointing out a significant point as relates to 2A (which is what we're talking about here)- the D party in CA has been the political vehicle of choice for gun control and regulation; however, in fairness, the (R) party in California has been borderline useless wrt 2A for some time. I guess we can agree, then, that both D & R in California fail miserably when it comes to our fundamental right of defense.

Calguns is a gun-oriented site full of gun people- don't fault them for taking what they love seriously (enough to place it at the forefront of what matters to them).

And the problem with the Republican party is their refusal to give a woman her right to choose.

See what I did there? Each party has a core belief, and it comes down to some significance to the other party.

I am a white Democrat, and I agree with the others in this thread. Everytime I venture into the 2A section of this site I get indignant and have less desire to help this cause as I am treated as a traitor to this country for not blindly following only the 2A as my main issue.

Why do I want to help people (with something I love) when they hate me for my other core beliefs and concerns? You guys need to stop slandering everyone who is slightly different than yourselves, it only hurts you further. You cannot 'remove' everyone who isn't exactly like you and then go on your merry 2A way. You need to include those who are different and share a common love of the 2A in order to gain ground.

I see Gator post and I go blind with rage at his hatred of my 'kind' and his spirited, limited and biased assault does nothing to help grow 2A acceptance when others see the 2A crowd as thousands of him.

I'm done, and running from this 2A forum again because I'm so disgusted reading 90% of the responses to pressing issues.

Gator Monroe
09-11-2009, 10:30 PM
And the problem with the Republican party is their refusal to give a woman her right to choose.

See what I did there? Each party has a core belief, and it comes down to some significance to the other party.

I am a white Democrat, and I agree with the others in this thread. Everytime I venture into the 2A section of this site I get indignant and have less desire to help this cause as I am treated as a traitor to this country for not blindly following only the 2A as my main issue.

Why do I want to help people (with something I love) when they hate me for my other core beliefs and concerns? You guys need to stop slandering everyone who is slightly different than yourselves, it only hurts you further. You cannot 'remove' everyone who isn't exactly like you and then go on your merry 2A way. You need to include those who are different and share a common love of the 2A in order to gain ground.

I see Gator post and I go blind with rage at his hatred of my 'kind' and his spirited, limited and biased assault does nothing to help grow 2A acceptance when others see the 2A crowd as thousands of him.

I'm done, and running from this 2A forum again because I'm so disgusted reading 90% of the responses to pressing issues.

Whaa ?:confused:

Gator Monroe
09-11-2009, 10:33 PM
No headway will be made if alternative views choose not to endure. I do think we (the gun owner community) could do a better job of listening more and talking less.

That said, bdsm was pointing out a significant point as relates to 2A (which is what we're talking about here)- the D party in CA has been the political vehicle of choice for gun control and regulation; however, in fairness, the (R) party in California has been borderline useless wrt 2A for some time. I guess we can agree, then, that both D & R in California fail miserably when it comes to our fundamental right of defense.

Calguns is a gun-oriented site full of gun people- don't fault them for taking what they love seriously (enough to place it at the forefront of what matters to them).
To paint Republicans in California and the rest of the country as being anywhere near as 2A unfriendly as Democrats is subtrafuge of the worse kind.

cbn620
09-11-2009, 10:40 PM
The problem is the official platform of the Democratic party basically says they are opposed to guns. They talk about "common sense" gun regulation that makes no sense and they talk about banning semi-automatic firearms in common use that have black furniture.

Both the libertarian party and republican party's official platform recognize it as an individual right.

It would be less polarizing if the Democratic party, as a whole, officially recognized the 2A as a right, without adding caveat's like "well, it's a right, but only for hunting and not for semi-automatics or handguns".

It would be less polarizing if it weren't democrats constantly screaming for gun control laws 10 times as often as republicans.

When Heller was decided, republicans got in front of camera and said "well yeah. DUH!" while democrats got in front of camera and had the nerve to tell the american people that we were now all less safe because of it.

This is exactly what I mean by polarizing. I will admit probably 3/4 of Democrats who matter are anti-gun. But it should also be mentioned that many Republicans consider pro-2A politics to be exclusive to their party platform. It's kind of a self fulfilling prophesy.

Democrats don't want to support 2A because that's too Republican. Well, if Democrats supported the 2A it wouldn't be just a Republican thing, now would it? That's what the Dems need to understand.

Quemtimebo
09-11-2009, 10:59 PM
:inquis: My wife and I are Roman Catholics from Los Angeles. How's that for nontraditional? Though actually there's a surprising number of families at our parish who own more than one gun and regularly shoot them.

Gator Monroe
09-11-2009, 11:03 PM
This is exactly what I mean by polarizing. I will admit probably 3/4 of Democrats who matter are anti-gun. But it should also be mentioned that many Republicans consider pro-2A politics to be exclusive to their party platform. It's kind of a self fulfilling prophesy.

Democrats don't want to support 2A because that's too Republican. Well, if Democrats supported the 2A it wouldn't be just a Republican thing, now would it? That's what the Dems need to understand.

Polarizing is what is needed pronto (This country needs the reset button pushed)

CHS
09-11-2009, 11:29 PM
And the problem with the Republican party is their refusal to give a woman her right to choose.

See what I did there? Each party has a core belief, and it comes down to some significance to the other party.


Look at my username and think for a couple minutes.


I am a white Democrat, and I agree with the others in this thread. Everytime I venture into the 2A section of this site I get indignant and have less desire to help this cause as I am treated as a traitor to this country for not blindly following only the 2A as my main issue.

Why do I want to help people (with something I love) when they hate me for my other core beliefs and concerns? You guys need to stop slandering everyone who is slightly different than yourselves, it only hurts you further. You cannot 'remove' everyone who isn't exactly like you and then go on your merry 2A way. You need to include those who are different and share a common love of the 2A in order to gain ground.


Who said anything about hating you?

I said that it's a huge problem that the Democratic party doesn't support the 2A. And it is a huge problem. You don't believe that? As a 2A-supporting democrat you really don't believe that it's a problem?

One of the problems with politics in America is that for the most part, the people out there in the middle, the ones that don't really thing too hard about things, pretty much believe what their party tells them.

It's one of the biggest reasons I'm almost embarrassed to be a registered Republican. That party has turned into the moral party of god to its extreme detriment.

You know what... Nevermind. You gave up and left so you have absolutely no desire to hear anyone's response. I simply pointed out that there is a very good reason why the 2A is so polarizing of an issue. You don't want to hear it.

CHS
09-11-2009, 11:30 PM
Democrats don't want to support 2A because that's too Republican. Well, if Democrats supported the 2A it wouldn't be just a Republican thing, now would it? That's what the Dems need to understand.

Bingo.

You hit the nail on the head.

JustGone
09-12-2009, 12:46 AM
I'm 1/2 White and 1/2 Mexican, but I look full Mexican lol I was raised in a white family. I have lived in California for 10 or so years and just recently(few months ago) moved to Indiana. I am moving back to Sacramento in a few months though. I'm 19, I own a few firearms and love them! I am thinkin bout going to gunsmiths school(it's and option).

Before I left I was getting my friends of mixed races(Asian,Russian,White,etc..) into firearms and the 2ndA, when I get back I'll be taking alot of them for some one-on-one range time to familiarize them with firearms and to eliminate the fear of an inanimate object that has been instilled in them since they were young.


God bless you guys, and God bless America!:patriot:

hamster
09-12-2009, 11:02 AM
nice to see some ladys on here and hear their points of view. sometimes i forget women are for the most part emotional first and then logical second. the way i got my mom into sports is not by explaining the rules of the game, instead, i told her what i knew about the players. about their families, the hardships they overcame and then my mom really started liking the game. she cheered for the player and learned the rules over time.

Shotgun Man
09-12-2009, 11:30 AM
I'm 1/2 White and 1/2 Mexican, but I look full Mexican lol I was raised in a white family. I have lived in California for 10 or so years and just recently(few months ago) moved to Indiana. I am moving back to Sacramento in a few months though. I'm 19, I own a few fire-arms and love them! I am thinkin bout going to gunsmiths school(it's and option).

Before I left I was getting my friends of mixed races(Asian,Russian,White,etc..) into fire-arms and the 2ndA, when I get back I'll be taking alot of them for some one-on-one range time to familiarize them with fire-arms and to eliminate the fear of an inanimate object that has been instilled in them since they were young.


God bless you guys, and God bless America!:patriot:

I'm not a spelling nazi or anything, but you're 19 years old and posting on a gun forum.

I've never heard of a "fire-arm." It reads pretty bad. Most folks say "firearm."

Kestryll
09-12-2009, 11:39 AM
And the problem with the Republican party is their refusal to give a woman her right to choose.

See what I did there? Each party has a core belief, and it comes down to some significance to the other party.

I am a white Democrat, and I agree with the others in this thread. Everytime I venture into the 2A section of this site I get indignant and have less desire to help this cause as I am treated as a traitor to this country for not blindly following only the 2A as my main issue.

Why do I want to help people (with something I love) when they hate me for my other core beliefs and concerns? You guys need to stop slandering everyone who is slightly different than yourselves, it only hurts you further. You cannot 'remove' everyone who isn't exactly like you and then go on your merry 2A way. You need to include those who are different and share a common love of the 2A in order to gain ground.

I see Gator post and I go blind with rage at his hatred of my 'kind' and his spirited, limited and biased assault does nothing to help grow 2A acceptance when others see the 2A crowd as thousands of him.

I'm done, and running from this 2A forum again because I'm so disgusted reading 90% of the responses to pressing issues.


A) Get over it.
As long as you are looking to be offended you WILL BE.
That's how life works.
Every day I see posts from people who assault my faith, my ideals, my opinions and my beliefs.
I see people espousing ideologies I find abhorrent and antithetical to the very structure and founding of this Country.
I disagree with them, I think they are flat out wrong and I can not conceive how someone could actually believe what they claim to.

However, I know two things.
It is their right to believe it just as it is my right not to believe or accept it.
If they are here, unless they are an anti troll, they share one essential belief with me and that is in the importance and absolute necessity of the @nd Amendment.

Because of those two thing I do exactly what I suggest you do.
I get over it and work on 2A issues with those same people.

B) Instead of running, take action use the tools you have.
I see posts by those who consider firearms a 'hobby only' who want to inject their casual non-concern in to our effort and it infuriates me.
I see members who do NOTHING other than troll or bait other member with over the top liberal pap.
I see members who state their Democratic ideology and then proceed to post nothing but digs and insults at those who do not share their views.

You have a luxury I do not.
You can add Gator to your 'Ignore' list and never see his posts or PMs.
Whether you run away or stay and fight is up to you but make the decision being both aware of the tools at your disposal and without the victimized comments.
No one is free from being offended, if that is what you want out of life it's going to be a long, stressful and disappointing ride.

JustGone
09-12-2009, 12:47 PM
I'm not a spelling nazi or anything, but you're 19 years old and posting on a gun forum.

I've never heard of a "fire-arm." It reads pretty bad. Most folks say "firearm."

Excuse my minor mistakes. I don't know what I was thinkin, sometimes you just write without making sure everything is correctly used.

Fire-arms lol
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/Gblood/arms-on-fire.jpg

Gunm
09-12-2009, 1:02 PM
Great post, Kestryll. I do not envy your position as Janitor. But the whole point of nicki's thread is to reach out to non-traditional demographics, not to polarize and repel them.

To me, guns are not my primary issue when I vote. But I also understand that many men and women here depend on these tools for their livelihood and for their lives every day, and for them it is their Only issue. I respect that and they in turn should respect that some people feel more passionately about other issues than they feel about guns. And to some, guns are a non-issue. They don't personally own a gun, but they don't mind if others own them.

As long as Democrats and Republicans traditionally vote the way they do on core beliefs such as abortion, immigration, guns, taxes, and religion, there will be very little progress.

I like CGF because they don't tell people whom to vote for. They focus on gun laws, not politicians. (And now they're a charity!) This is a good way to bring people from various political beliefs together. Thank you, CGF.

And thank you, JustGone, for spending your own time and money educating people that guns are tools. Very loud tools that should be handled carefully, but tools. (Fire-arms on the other hand are just plain scary! :eek:)

KylaGWolf
09-12-2009, 6:23 PM
That's what you get for buying a plastic gun :p

Hey now my gun is also chrome not just plastic :).

KylaGWolf
09-12-2009, 6:31 PM
:inquis: My wife and I are Roman Catholics from Los Angeles. How's that for nontraditional? Though actually there's a surprising number of families at our parish who own more than one gun and regularly shoot them.

And no my comment about the bickering is not aimed at you so please do not take offense.

Good for them get as many of them to join the forum as possible. The more 2A friendlies we get here REGARDLESS of their political, religous and other beliefs the better. As I have said many times in this thread and others its about time that those that want to have 2A rights stop the petty bickering and name calling and welcome all that want the same thing when it comes to our rights. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what someone's political party, religion, sex or anything else is. What matters is that when it comes to fighting for our gun rights we can work together to make it happen. Because without every single body we stand less of a chance to make things change in this state period. And who knows the person you might drive away may be able to do more to get your 2A rights going in this state than anyone else can.

KylaGWolf
09-12-2009, 6:35 PM
I'm 1/2 White and 1/2 Mexican, but I look full Mexican lol I was raised in a white family. I have lived in California for 10 or so years and just recently(few months ago) moved to Indiana. I am moving back to Sacramento in a few months though. I'm 19, I own a few firearms and love them! I am thinkin bout going to gunsmiths school(it's and option).

Before I left I was getting my friends of mixed races(Asian,Russian,White,etc..) into firearms and the 2ndA, when I get back I'll be taking alot of them for some one-on-one range time to familiarize them with firearms and to eliminate the fear of an inanimate object that has been instilled in them since they were young.


God bless you guys, and God bless America!:patriot:


Welcome to Calguns! And if becoming a gunsmith is something that makes you happy I say go for it. Any time you can do a job that makes you happy is a good thing. That is also fantastic that you want to help others when it comes to learning about guns. This is exactly what we are talking about in this thread!

MidnightSon117
09-13-2009, 8:30 AM
I'm Filipino by ethnicity, American by nationality. Catholic, Republican-leaning, but I vote Democrat on some issues. Some, I vote Libertarian.

I am very vocal about being pro-gun everywhere I go, even in the work environment. I got one of my co-workers hooked on guns, and he now regularly brings other co-workers to the range. I constantly bring new people when I go shooting...male, female, doesn't matter what age or ethnicity or nationality, orientation, or even who they voted for. I know I'm in the minority with my friends having voted for McCain, but because I took them shooting regardless of how I disagree with them, they become more open, because I don't make it all about who voted for who. They just enjoy regardless...meaning after I get them hooked, they WILL feel that sting of not being able to get that gun they want that we've all felt ;)...because of certain politicians. And I'll let them know which politicians exactly. It may not change their vote right away, but it'll definitely get them thinking.

That's the first thing we have to get the vast middle-of-the-road to do--to think about gun-control on a very personal level, not as a topic of a party platform. We can't view this fight for the 2nd Amendment as something with instant rewards or immediate gratification. We have to grow these seeds we plant, keep up the constant vigilance, attention, patience, and sometimes sacrifice, to make sure we can sustain this fight. It may take years, but that's the mindset WE need.

I do believe there aren't as many gun-grabbers out there who are hard-core as we think. I think they are actually in the minority, and don't do half the damage the uninformed masses do. But at least from these uninformed masses, I can say I've taken a hundred of people shooting in my lifetime, then instructed a couple of hundred more, convinced almost all of them that shooting isn't bad, and neither are all gun-owners, got a good couple dozen to regularly shoot, got another dozen to actually buy their own firearms, another dozen to buy range memberships, and got another half dozen to join the NRA. All without getting petty and pointing fingers.

Yeah I'll occasionally ***** and whine about how things are, but I'll still go out and keep getting it done regardless. :)

As for getting more the Filipino community involved, a lot of first-generation immigrants and older folks are already pro-gun. I have a lot of uncles who were raised around guns and shooting, they just need to be guided to vote for pro-gun candidates. It's the generation born-and-raised here that is divided.

mmartin
09-13-2009, 10:52 AM
nice to see some ladys on here and hear their points of view. sometimes i forget women are for the most part emotional first and then logical second. the way i got my mom into sports is not by explaining the rules of the game, instead, i told her what i knew about the players. about their families, the hardships they overcame and then my mom really started liking the game. she cheered for the player and learned the rules over time.

dude, totally brilliant move!
know your audience... it makes success possible.

I tend to think and react much more the way men do, but I spend so much time teaching women that I know what works and what doesn't. for a great many women the emotions have to be very calm and quiet before logic takes hold. and as you so correctly identified, if you can get them to connect with the people aspect, you can get them interested.

see I figure if you could get shooting ranges equipped with a coffee shop and some light fashion shopping, you'd get a whole lot more women... "yeah, Susie, Cheryl and I are popping over to the range for a latte and some shooting. We'll probably shop for some new shoes while we're there... you want to go?"

megan

Lyte-
09-13-2009, 11:06 AM
Ummm what if they served food also :)

I have long enough lunch breaks to make it worth it!

mmartin
09-13-2009, 11:26 AM
Ummm what if they served food also :)

I have long enough lunch breaks to make it worth it!

the last time I worked with a group of mostly gun-comfortable guys we used to pop over to the sporting clays range and take a group lesson at lunch once a week... ok, it's a long lunch, but when the half the company is going, it's not a problem (love working for startups, you can make your own corporate culture rules...)
megan

MrSigmaDOT40
09-13-2009, 11:28 AM
Well...... some of you already know my stance/ideas, not looking to get flammed anymore i'm already burnt to a crisp.

KylaGWolf
09-13-2009, 12:36 PM
mmartin now see that is the type of job I would love where you can take a long lunch to go shooting....they don't need a secretary do they?

mmartin
09-13-2009, 1:33 PM
mmartin now see that is the type of job I would love where you can take a long lunch to go shooting....they don't need a secretary do they?

alas they are no more... successful enough to be eaten by a corporate giant, and absorbed into the corporate cultural model. it was pretty cool while it was small. megan

CharlieK
09-13-2009, 2:26 PM
I am a female living in Los Angeles. I shoot steel challange regularly and support the entire BoRs, including the 2nd. I am a NRA member. Sorry I can't fill another column for you, but alas, I'm a white chick.

wildhawker
09-13-2009, 2:43 PM
Charlie, glad to have you here- hope to see you get involved with Calguns in your community!

8-Ball
09-13-2009, 4:18 PM
I'm a designer, probably not the typical gun enthusiast group... My industry is made up of mostly women and there is a large gay component.

I've talked with my peers, family, and a lot of women about our second amendment rights and I firmly believe that women are the target to grow this movement... and I don't mean the average woman that frequents this board... no offense intended. I love women shooters and take my wife to the range as often as possible.

Women who are not currently part of the movement/sport are put off by the typical pro second amendment persona and attire. We would help our cause by being mindful, when confronting the uninitiated woman, about our appearance. There is only one first impression, as clichť as that may sound, and opportunity should not be wasted.

I go to the gun shows and see the folks manning the booths, walking the aisles, etc. I see shirts with skeletons, blood spatter, assault rifles. Then there are the camo clad, sling slathered, combat boot shod, unkempt uni-bomber types. It isn't inviting. It is scary. It is counter productive.

Talk to any candidate running for office, they'll tell you just how important that impression is. Or you can disregard it at your own peril.

Those who I've spoken with are rife with fear over children being killed in gun accidents, or guns getting in the wrong hands, or if guns weren't available...etc., etc., etc.

There needs to be a campaign, at least statistics put together in an intelligible format that compares child deaths by gun versus toys... child deaths by gun versus the number of child lives saved... These are the issues that motivate the women I've talked to. It would be great to have a fully sourced booklet to hand out... not an invitation to a meeting, or to join the NRA, or this board for that matter.

My wife would wear a CalGuns shirt if it looked something like this...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=33054&stc=1&d=1252883871

I might be nuts... but then again, maybe I'm not...

wildhawker
09-13-2009, 4:42 PM
8-ball, very, *very* important points. I would really like to put together a committee of Calgunners that develops concepts and designs for women's and gender-neutral Calguns gear.

mmartin
09-13-2009, 6:44 PM
8-ball, very, *very* important points. I would really like to put together a committee of Calgunners that develops concepts and designs for women's and gender-neutral Calguns gear.
IN.

proposing:
calguns.net
... because the mama bear needs to be able to protect her cubs...
(illustration of angry mama bear in front of her two treed cubs)

'course for some of the women I know, the image over at glambo would work just fine... might be worth licensing.;)
http://www.glamguns.com/

megan

mmartin
09-13-2009, 6:49 PM
There needs to be a campaign, at least statistics put together in an intelligible format that compares child deaths by gun versus toys... child deaths by gun versus the number of child lives saved... These are the issues that motivate the women I've talked to. It would be great to have a fully sourced booklet to hand out... not an invitation to a meeting, or to join the NRA, or this board for that matter.
isn't this info in one of John Lott's books? I'll look it up.
megan

JustGone
09-13-2009, 6:54 PM
I think this is an excellent idea!

Lyte-
09-13-2009, 7:32 PM
IN.

proposing:
calguns.net
... because the mama bear needs to be able to protect her cubs...
(illustration of angry mama bear in front of her two treed cubs)

'course for some of the women I know, the image over at glambo would work just fine... might be worth licensing.;)
http://www.glamguns.com/

megan

OMG!!! I wonder if they have this in Purple!
http://www.glamguns.com/carebeararmor.jpg

LesGrossman41510
09-13-2009, 7:56 PM
WHen i wrote my letter to the governator i made sure to say that i was a college student born and raised in San Francisco and that many fellow students felt out futures were at risk by overreaching politicians who were chipping away at our rights.

KylaGWolf
09-13-2009, 8:06 PM
I am a female living in Los Angeles. I shoot steel challange regularly and support the entire BoRs, including the 2nd. I am a NRA member. Sorry I can't fill another column for you, but alas, I'm a white chick.

Hey I am all for more of us females speaking out here. Sometimes I feel way out numbered on the forums.

KylaGWolf
09-13-2009, 8:10 PM
I'm a designer, probably not the typical gun enthusiast group... My industry is made up of mostly women and there is a large gay component.

I've talked with my peers, family, and a lot of women about our second amendment rights and I firmly believe that women are the target to grow this movement... and I don't mean the average woman that frequents this board... no offense intended. I love women shooters and take my wife to the range as often as possible.

Women who are not currently part of the movement/sport are put off by the typical pro second amendment persona and attire. We would help our cause by being mindful, when confronting the uninitiated woman, about our appearance. There is only one first impression, as clichť as that may sound, and opportunity should not be wasted.

I go to the gun shows and see the folks manning the booths, walking the aisles, etc. I see shirts with skeletons, blood spatter, assault rifles. Then there are the camo clad, sling slathered, combat boot shod, unkempt uni-bomber types. It isn't inviting. It is scary. It is counter productive.

Talk to any candidate running for office, they'll tell you just how important that impression is. Or you can disregard it at your own peril.

Those who I've spoken with are rife with fear over children being killed in gun accidents, or guns getting in the wrong hands, or if guns weren't available...etc., etc., etc.

There needs to be a campaign, at least statistics put together in an intelligible format that compares child deaths by gun versus toys... child deaths by gun versus the number of child lives saved... These are the issues that motivate the women I've talked to. It would be great to have a fully sourced booklet to hand out... not an invitation to a meeting, or to join the NRA, or this board for that matter.

My wife would wear a CalGuns shirt if it looked something like this...

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=33054&stc=1&d=1252883871

I might be nuts... but then again, maybe I'm not...

8ball welcome to Calguns. You might want to get in touch with canthavenothinggood on here. he is the one that designs the shirts. I can say that I would wear that shirt too. As to your comments about how women think...as a woman I can somewhat agree. I do think their needs to be some kind of literature that is geared towards women and how to break down the anti gun myths that are out there.

KylaGWolf
09-13-2009, 8:11 PM
8-ball, very, *very* important points. I would really like to put together a committee of Calgunners that develops concepts and designs for women's and gender-neutral Calguns gear.


You can put me down for that too. LOL something canthavenothing good and I were already sort of talking about getting more girl gear going. :D

KylaGWolf
09-13-2009, 8:14 PM
OMG!!! I wonder if they have this in Purple!
http://www.glamguns.com/carebeararmor.jpg

Oh my if they do I want one just to annoy my other half. But seriously I am all for more feminine gear.

8-Ball
09-13-2009, 8:29 PM
OMG!!! I wonder if they have this in Purple!
http://www.glamguns.com/carebeararmor.jpg

poster child...

mmartin
09-13-2009, 11:42 PM
OMG!!! I wonder if they have this in Purple!
http://www.glamguns.com/carebeararmor.jpg

actually, I'm holding out for one sporting Glambo herself...
http://www.glamguns.com/glambo_logo_glow.png (http://www.glamguns.com/)

KylaGWolf
09-14-2009, 9:26 PM
actually, I'm holding out for one sporting Glambo herself...
http://www.glamguns.com/glambo_logo_glow.png (http://www.glamguns.com/)

lol your might be on to something there. I went and looked at that site and about died laughing.

tico
09-14-2009, 10:41 PM
I live in TX, but am back and forth to Berkeley monthly.

I'm a white hispanic male, so I wouldn't help "diversify" a photo op, but I am a queer liberal gun-owning atheist and have worked quite a bit to introduce as many of my liberal/democrat friends as possible to pistol and rifle shooting.

After surviving a post-Hurricane Ike attacker the only time I *don't* have my glock at my side 24 hours / day is when I'm in CA and I'm not popular enough to have one of y'all's CCW's. ;)

Unfortunately, I'll miss the Nordyke case (in Oakland the 15th to the 22nd of this month then off to Houston). Let me know if there's anything I can do.

wildhawker
09-14-2009, 11:20 PM
I'm sure we'll see you at an event one of these days. Don't feel too bad- we can't get CCWs in the bay either.

KylaGWolf
09-15-2009, 5:48 PM
I live in TX, but am back and forth to Berkeley monthly.

I'm a white hispanic male, so I wouldn't help "diversify" a photo op, but I am a queer liberal gun-owning atheist and have worked quite a bit to introduce as many of my liberal/democrat friends as possible to pistol and rifle shooting.

After surviving a post-Hurricane Ike attacker the only time I *don't* have my glock at my side 24 hours / day is when I'm in CA and I'm not popular enough to have one of y'all's CCW's. ;)

Unfortunately, I'll miss the Nordyke case (in Oakland the 15th to the 22nd of this month then off to Houston). Let me know if there's anything I can do.

Tico welcome to Calguns. And don't feel bad its next to impossible to get a CCW here in San Diego too.