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hawk81
09-07-2009, 6:17 AM
Well, this is quit a long drawn out drama event. A buddy of mine in the neighborhood asked me to come along with him to talk to some hispanic neighbors about some problems he was having with them. Apparently he was having some problems with them taunting and threatening him while he was driving by. Well, I went with him to the neighbors house. I stayed on the sidewalk, while he talked with them. I heard what he told them, he basically was trying to resolve the tension with them and he discussed the problems they had with him. Well the guy that opened the door listened for a bit and then proceeded to head but him in the face. Well after that I saw 2 of the hispanic males run upstairs yelling to get guns. So I told my friend to lets get out of here and go back to my place. So as we are going back to my place, which is about 120 yards away, 5 hispanic males come running after us. 2 of the 5 males have handguns and the other 3 males are throwing beer bottles at us. So we get to my house and I grab a handgun I keep in my garage and went to my garage door and told them to halt. While I was doing this I had my brother calll 911 so the cops could handle this. The 5 guys are about 40 yards away and see I have a gun, I told them to go back home, and if they kept coming and got on my property they would be shot. They did listen and went back to their property. Well the cops came, 30 minutes later, and basically treated us like the criminals. They told me I could not protect my property, unless it was the last resort and I was hiding in my bathtub. They also wanted to take my weapon which I had locked in my safe before they got their. I told them they would have to get a warrant to get my gun. They did not get my gun and left it at that. The only thing that really kept me out of trouble was my guard card and gun card, for security. They had us sit on the curb for 30 minutes. They did not even arrest any of the 5 gang banger wannabees that chased us downed the street with weapons. They said it was their word against theirs. These are Riverside sheriff officers. Now I have to worry about retaliation from the gang bangers. What should I do? Since the cops won't help, now I'm on my own. What would a calguns member do? All reasonable offers accepted, please help. By the way, Riverside sheriff threatened to get my guard card and gun card liscense suspended if I brandished my weapon on my property again.

JohnnyRooks
09-07-2009, 6:30 AM
your buddy should have ignored them. his life is not on any danger when they taunted him. Goodluck and stay prepared at all times.

forgiven
09-07-2009, 6:47 AM
Your in a very tough spot now. Your going to have to watch your back and worse your going to be thinking about those creeps for a long time. Do you rent? If so, I would move.

Meplat
09-07-2009, 7:05 AM
Now I have to worry about retaliation from the gang bangers. What should I do? Since the cops won't help, now I'm on my own. What would a calguns member do? All reasonable offers accepted, please help.

Move. Even if you own it. Rent it out and move. Especially if you have a family. You only have two choices, the other is illegal. 1984, the prols do as they damn well please.

G-Man WC
09-07-2009, 7:16 AM
Wow, This is a tuff one to call. I'd most likley be outta there if they are hard core gang members. They got something to prove now (over nothing you and I both know) and you and your bud could be targeted. -g

zukieast
09-07-2009, 7:16 AM
There has to be more to the story than that!

If you friend was head butted on the porche and you witnessed the event you could have still filed Assualt Charges on the neighbor.

There had to have been some kin of bruising/discoloration etc from a head butt.

Also, there must have been some pretty harsh words for an individual to do the assualt.

Why would you go over to a suspected bangers house at night?

As a gunowner in CA you should know that you have ZERO rights to defend property and life unless you are in fact in a tub with no exit. CA has no Castle Doctrine laws.

Like the other guys said, if you rent it is now time to move. Or time to sell. Either way, they are probably illegal and nothing is going to happen to them. You are the one screwed by this event.

Ok, if they continue to bother you guys, then just call the cops on them and get a series of complaints going against them. Eventually with enough visits for the Sheriff it will be hard for them to conduct business, and they will grow tired of screwing with you.

pieeater
09-07-2009, 7:26 AM
Were there no injuries from the headbut?? You called the SO reporting 5 gangmembers with guns chasing you into your house. And the deputys came after you and left the gangmembers alone? I wonder if the gangmembers called also.

halifax
09-07-2009, 7:37 AM
Really I don't understand why some of them aren't in jail. The guy that answered the door "threw the first punch" when he head-butted your friend. This is not a case of mutual combat. In what way was the neighbor provoked enough to do that? They got guns and chased you down the street, why? Their lives were not in danger. Did the SO even run their names? If they are gang-bangers, they probably are felons-in-posession.

Your buddy did not do the right thing by confronting them. Now you get to live with the consequences because you joined him. If you have family living with you, move, because obviously the SO will not be there to help.

:mad:

woodsman
09-07-2009, 7:41 AM
California has a castle law - just not a strong one.



California (California Penal Code 198.5 sets forth that unlawful, forcible entry into one's residence by someone not a member of the household creates the presumption that the resident held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury should he or she use deadly force against the intruder. This would make the homicide justifiable under CPC 197[1]. CALCRIM 506 gives the instruction, "A defendant is not required to retreat. He or she is entitled to stand his or her ground and defend himself or herself and, if reasonably necessary, to pursue an assailant until the danger ... has passed. This is so even if safety could have been achieved by retreating." However, it also states that "[People v. Ceballos] specifically held that burglaries which 'do not reasonably create a fear of great bodily harm' are not sufficient 'cause for exaction of human life.'”)

halifax
09-07-2009, 7:50 AM
California has a castle law - just not a strong one.



California (California Penal Code 198.5 sets forth that unlawful, forcible entry into one's residence by someone not a member of the household creates the presumption that the resident held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury should he or she use deadly force against the intruder. This would make the homicide justifiable under CPC 197[1]. CALCRIM 506 gives the instruction, "A defendant is not required to retreat. He or she is entitled to stand his or her ground and defend himself or herself and, if reasonably necessary, to pursue an assailant until the danger ... has passed. This is so even if safety could have been achieved by retreating." However, it also states that "[People v. Ceballos] specifically held that burglaries which 'do not reasonably create a fear of great bodily harm' are not sufficient 'cause for exaction of human life.')

That is ridiculous. How does anyone, except the burglar, know what the intent of the break-in is?

colossians323
09-07-2009, 7:56 AM
your buddy should have ignored them. his life is not on any danger when they taunted him. Goodluck and stay prepared at all times.

Nice hindsight. If he was non confrontational, he did the right thing...................................but in hindsight:rolleyes:

socal2310
09-07-2009, 8:18 AM
Were you indoors or out of doors with your firearm? If you were inside your house and not in an area deemed "public" by our liberal judges, then the cops were wrong. Plain and simple as there was no question as to their intent.

Laws requiring retreat wouldn't apply even if we didn't have a weak castle doctrine on the books as you had already retreated.

As others said, I would encourage your friend to file assault charges. If the police were unwilling to investigate such a claim, I'd move.

Ryan

Spelunker
09-07-2009, 8:20 AM
I think some video cameras for documentation would be good in the future in dealing with the cops/courts.

sixtringr
09-07-2009, 8:22 AM
Sorry that happened to a guy trying to do a good thing and help a buddy. My suggestion is to move as far away from as possible. If you own like sombody else said "rent it out". These things rarely end soon or well unless the ganga bangas get in trouble for other stuff- could take a while.

VW*Mike
09-07-2009, 8:28 AM
I don't think you have much to worry about. Your neighbor maybe, but they already know you are armed, and will call the cops. They are bullies, but they don't want to be bullied or have the cops coming around so my guess is they will leave you alone.

If it were me, I wouldn't leave. I would make their lives miserable, everytime something is fishy, call the cops. Tell them you are a concerned neighbor and they may be selling drugs and weapons. Call immigration, call the city council and tell them you don't feel safe in your own home. Once they get harassed enough, or get caught doing something they shouldn't they will be gone if the entire neighborhood feels the way you do.

The cops probably saw it as your neighbor being the instigator for going over to their house. If they CHASED me on to my property with guns, they would have left in body bags. There has to be more to this story. I doubt if they were actual gang members the cops would just leave knowing they chased someone with a gun. You would assume if atleast ONE of them had a prior or was on parole, the house would have been searched. You were smart enough to no let them in your safe, but why wouldn't they search their house?

JohnnyRooks
09-07-2009, 8:29 AM
Nice hindsight. If he was non confrontational, he did the right thing...................................but in hindsight:rolleyes:
umm this would have not happened if he did not knock on their doorsteps. if he just ignore them the situation would not escalate from bad to worst.

Chatterbox
09-07-2009, 8:35 AM
Get a restraining order against them - that would also disarm them for the duration, if I am not mistaken.

VW*Mike
09-07-2009, 8:39 AM
Get a restraining order against them - that would also disarm them for the duration, if I am not mistaken.

There is that problem of trying to get criminals to obey the laws again. Even if they took their guns, I'm sure another one is a phone call away from Casper or Little Joker.

pennys dad
09-07-2009, 8:50 AM
I lived in Phoenix for awhile and had a nieghbor brandish a gun at a bunch of harassing bangers. He went to jail for the night. After that we his 2 direct side nieghbors called the police everytime the bangers did anything. I must have called 2 dozen times for making loud noises after the 10pm noise curfew. Each time the PD showed and harrassed the bangers, we also painted over all graffiti in pink paint. eventually they left

yoteassasin
09-07-2009, 8:51 AM
wow!!!! what the hell. next time leave your door open so when they come in your bedroom armed You can hose them. other than that good luck.. like everyone else i would suggest moving, NOW!

Kid Stanislaus
09-07-2009, 8:52 AM
It looks like your friend just couldn't leave well enough alone. When he came to you asking you to escort him to a house filled with gang-bangers right then and there you should've told him he was nuts! What you guys are dealing with there is tribalism and its a losing situation for you all the way around. Get OUT of that neighborhood ASAP.

PatriotnMore
09-07-2009, 9:00 AM
If you are not going to move, I would get video cams and recorders for each, mount them high and with views of front, inside, and back yard.

There should be a police report, get a copy. I would go down to the Sheriffs office and talk with the person in charge and explain the situation, and ask them why no arrest was made, and how should you handle any further incidents? Create a paper trail, show you have been trying to resolve this matter, that way if things get nasty, you have documentation.

If you can afford it, talk to a criminal/firearms attorney, you'll have their name and number if it goes wrong, and get advise on the nuts and bolts of what to do if something goes wrong, and your right.

If it goes wrong, DO NOT talk to the cops, state your right to silence, and tell them you want your attorney present before any questions are answered, and nothing more.

Edit to add: If you own more than one firearm, I would take all the others to a family member or friend you can trust, to hold on to them, and only keep one on hand for defensive purposes, and make sure you have a locking safe/cabinet that is secure to keep it in while you are out of the house.

Blue
09-07-2009, 9:09 AM
File a complaint to the PD.

FastFinger
09-07-2009, 9:21 AM
That's pretty FUBAR - I'd say "I can't believe the police treated you like that.." except I fully believe they did. Which is pathetic.

I would certainly strongly consider moving - but that's far easier said than done and may be very impractical for a lot of reasons.

If that's not possible I think these steps are all solid - except I'd amend it to holding back at least two personal firearms on the premises - a shotgun and a handgun.

Good luck.

If you are not going to move, I would get video cams and recorders for each, mount them high and with views of front, inside, and back yard.

There should be a police report, get a copy. I would go down to the Sheriffs office and talk with the person in charge and explain the situation, and ask them why no arrest was made, and how should you handle any further incidents? Create a paper trail, show you have been trying to resolve this matter, that way if things get nasty, you have documentation.

If you can afford it, talk to a criminal/firearms attorney, you'll have their name and number if it goes wrong, and get advise on the nuts and bolts of what to do if something goes wrong, and your right.

If it goes wrong, DO NOT talk to the cops, state your right to silence, and tell them you want your attorney present before any questions are answered, and nothing more.

Edit to add: If you own more than one firearm, I would take all the others to a family member or friend you can trust, to hold on to them, and only keep one on hand for defensive purposes, and make sure you have a locking safe/cabinet that is secure to keep it in while you are out of the house.

obeygiant
09-07-2009, 9:23 AM
pm sent

Blue
09-07-2009, 9:24 AM
Come to think of it, if I had done the same thing, I probably wouldn't have popped back out and showed my piece. I would have hid out in the house on the phone with 911 and if they beat the door in and had guns it would have been a different story. Have your buddy video tape them harassing him as he drives by.

M9Man
09-07-2009, 9:27 AM
Let me get this straight you attempt a peaceful conversation with gang members to figure out what is wrong they assault you chase you down with deadly weapons onto your property. You are more or less inside your home being inside your garage and you brandish a firearm in fear of your life and save your life:hide: in doing so and the cop tries to take away your gun and your right to carry it violating your first and second amendment rights and does nothing to the gang members.:eek::ack2: I would of told that cop your not taking my gun and card I'm taking your gun and badge. I would of asked him for his badge number and written it down right there in front of him and said I'm filing a complaint with the Riverside, CA. Office of Internal Affairs (http://www.riversideca.gov/rpd/ChiefOfc/IA.html) and watch beads of sweat poor of his head as he gets steaming mad:toetap05:. Next time you do something like this have a digital recorder in your shirt like the open carry guys do so they can record police brutality from cops harassing them.

yoteassasin
09-07-2009, 9:27 AM
btw i think you now have "good cause" for a ccw also a restraining order will better the "good cause"

cheese
09-07-2009, 9:49 AM
your buddy should have ignored them. his life is not on any danger when they taunted him. Goodluck and stay prepared at all times.

I agree with this. I guess it doesnt matter now. Now a bunch of "gangbangers" know where you live and that you own guns. I would get cameras around the house.

cheese
09-07-2009, 9:50 AM
btw i think you now have "good cause" for a ccw also a restraining order will better the "good cause"

Wouldnt it be just as easy for them to get a restraining order which would automatically dq the op for a ccw?

mmartin
09-07-2009, 9:52 AM
If you can afford it, talk to a criminal/firearms attorney, you'll have their name and number if it goes wrong, and get advise on the nuts and bolts of what to do if something goes wrong, and your right.

If it goes wrong, DO NOT talk to the cops, state your right to silence, and tell them you want your attorney present before any questions are answered, and nothing more.

we've had dealings with the Riverside county PD, there is a prevailing attitude that no one but them should have guns, that anyone who has one is inherently looking for trouble outside the law, and their actions to that effect under color of authority are quite clear in my personal experience. I have had the sense that somehow citizens who own guns offend them, and there's a level of self-righteousness about their attitude that's qute distinct. I've got several friends on the Riverside PD, they say the attitude that everyone is a perp is standard issue for all field officers in the department. if you have to deal with them again, expect it, prepare for it.

Don't know what the reason is behind their *not* checking out the bangers.

if you need referrals to gun law attorneys in Riverside, I've got 2 I can recommend. if you're looking for a consultation one of them is excellent for that, for a not-too-outrageous amount you can get some very on-point education on your situation, rights, options, possible outcomes.

Megan

yoteassasin
09-07-2009, 9:57 AM
i think you might be giving them too much credit.... but if they had like a gang attorney you might be screwed
Wouldnt it be just as easy for them to get a restraining order which would automatically dq the op for a ccw?

PatriotnMore
09-07-2009, 9:58 AM
This is an issue with many P.D.'s/Sheriff departments, and a constant source of irritation with the law abiding, and the public concerned with the unwritten operating tempo's of LEO's and what appears to be a blatant disregard, or lack of understanding in upholding our Constitutional rights, by those sworn to protect it.

we've had dealings with the Riverside county PD, there is a prevailing attitude that no one but them should have guns, that anyone who has one is inherently looking for trouble outside the law, and their actions to that effect under color of authority are quite clear in my personal experience. I have had the sense that somehow citizens who own guns offend them, and there's a level of self-righteousness about their attitude that's qute distinct. I've got several friends on the Riverside PD, they say the attitude that everyone is a perp is standard issue for all field officers in the department. if you have to deal with them again, expect it, prepare for it.

Don't know what the reason is behind their *not* checking out the bangers.

if you need referrals to gun law attorneys in Riverside, I've got 2 I can recommend. if you're looking for a consultation one of them is excellent for that, for a not-too-outrageous amount you can get some very on-point education on your situation, rights, options, possible outcomes.

Megan

mmartin
09-07-2009, 9:59 AM
I would of told that cop your not taking my gun and card I'm taking your gun and badge. I would of asked him for his badge number and written it down right there in front of him and said I'm filing a complaint with the Riverside, CA. Office of Internal Affairs (http://www.riversideca.gov/rpd/ChiefOfc/IA.html) and watch beads of sweat poor of his head as he gets steaming mad:toetap05:. Next time you do something like this have a digital recorder in your shirt like the open carry guys do so they can record police brutality from cops harassing them.
from personal experience I'll just tell you that would have very likely have gotten him arrested in Riverside. disrespect of cop is an arresting offence around here.
and I'm guessing they'll never find your digital recorder. it'd probably end up in the reservoir in cement overshoes.
oh gosh, do I sound cynical? yes, I suppose I do.
megan

CitaDeL
09-07-2009, 10:02 AM
1) The police view your friend, the one going to 'talk' as the instigator/agressor. The neighbor probably said he head butted your friend to defend himself from an intruder.

2) The charges for assault and the brandishing charges against the pursuers should have been pressed at the time of the field investigation.

3) The California Constitution Article 1, Section 1 says all people have inalienable rights, among them are enjoying and defending life, liberty, aquiring, possessing, and protecting property...though Im not sure why this came up- the assailants werent trying to take or destroy anyone's goods. I think is might have been something the officer jammed into this situation to tell you that you did the wrong thing.

4) You did exactly the right thing by putting your gun in the safe before they arrived and telling the officers to go get a warrant. You were properly excercising your 4th and 5th amendment rights. Otherwise I am certain you would have been deprived of it before they left.

5) You should have left your guard card and gun card out of it. The mere fact that you presented them in this situation tells me you also gave them photo id. This was not necessary and your employement documents may still be in jeopardy. If you are not in uniform and not conducting duties of your employment leave the guard card and gun card out of it. As for presenting photo id- this was not necessary. When asked for picture ID, I would have said "Its in the safe next to the gun, go get a warrant"... and they would have to be satisfied with my name and address.

6) You friend is now in a pickle- Staying means he will have to endure whatever the punks want to dole out. Leaving means that the territory is ceded to scumbag criminals who will intimidate and vicitimize those all around them. If your friend stays, he must put a coalition of sympathetic neighbors together who are determined to make it difficult for scumbags to live there. Anything less will result in your friend being injured or killed.

M9Man
09-07-2009, 10:07 AM
You have every right to file a complaint with IA for officer misconduct the fact that you say that to his face is in no violation of law and him arresting you for doing so is a wrongful arrest and yet another violation of first amendment rights, which only gives you more evidence to file against him and have the Marxist jerk thrown off the force. They can take away your tape recorder, but they can't touch the tapes from the cruiser cameras.

JDoe
09-07-2009, 10:15 AM
What is the problem that your neighbors are having?

What should I do? Since the cops won't help, now I'm on my own. What would a calguns member do? All reasonable offers accepted, please help.

Honestly? First Id try and make peace. How you go about doing that depends on what kind of people they are at the core. Id look for the person that the others look up to and figure out how to approach that person to initiate a conversation. To do that you really have to figure out what makes them tick and then go from there.

Also there may be some sort of dispute resolution officer or something like that in your area that the cops might be able to point you to.

Escalating the situation by calling the cops whenever possible is an option but one I'd use as a last resort if a peaceful resolution isn't possible.

Regarding the cops it looks to me like they were just trying to educate you AND protect you.

1. Be aware of what constitutes admissible evidence. If you're going to play the game make sure you know the rules and cover your butt.
2. Dont brandish a weapon to stop an incident where you have an escape option or no reasonable fear of getting killed or being gravely injured. Brandishing your 1911 while standing in your open garage door is not exhausting all possible options to avoid violence.
3. Make sure that if you are going to draw your weapon that you have the circumstances of a good shoot on your side, i.e. you follow California law.
4. The cops really are on your side and gave you s**t to educate you about what you can and can not do otherwise my guess is that youd be arrested for brandishing already and your guard card might be in jeopardy.

Oh yeah, one more thing, no good deed goes unpunished.

mmartin
09-07-2009, 10:24 AM
You have every right to file a complaint with IA for officer misconduct the fact that you say that to his face is in no violation of law and him arresting you for doing so is a wrongful arrest and yet another violation of first amendment rights, which only gives you more evidence to file against him and have the Marxist jerk thrown off the force. They can take away your tape recorder, but they can't touch the tapes from the cruiser cameras.

all of which is true, but you'll have to pay a lawyer to sort it out, after you bail out. not everything is on the cruiser camera. Not everything in the PD report is true, but how are you going to prove it? he said/he said, remebering of course that you're the one looking for trouble, because you had a gun without being a cop. you are defacto in the position of proving your innocence, so you'd better be able to *prove* it.

your stand is righteous, how big is your legal defense fund?

it's always good to remember who's woods you're in... round here the woods belong to the riverside PD.

remember the case last year or so where the PO pulled over a drunk-and-evading, got the passenger (a recently returned vet) on the ground, told him to get up and then shot him 3 times when he did? PO was not successfully prosecuted on that, they got a lesser charge, but not what they should have. nevermind the whole thing was on the cruiser cam.

that's our neck of the woods. know who's woods you're in.

just sayin'.
megan

mmartin
09-07-2009, 10:30 AM
4. The cops really are on your side and gave you s**t to educate you about what you can and can not do otherwise my guess is that you’d be arrested for brandishing already and your guard card might be in jeopardy.
um, no.
and I've got friends ON the Riverside PD who will tell you that.
and d**m lucky not to be arrested.
megan

CenterX
09-07-2009, 10:52 AM
Get a cold case of Bud and a Sympathy card with Iris. Add a message to the card that "I'm lamenting the difficulties from last night, have a Bud on me - No Issues. Peace Out." Never say you are sorry or made an error. Lamenting is a good nebulous word in this case.
Do not sign it.
Move quickly when you put them on the porch. Move quickly home.
Never Ever do a crazy confrontation thing like that again.
Sticks and stones will break your bones, but looks and words will never truly hurt you.
Good Luck.

hawk81
09-07-2009, 10:59 AM
Thanks for the advise. We could of filed charges but the cops really didn't seem to want to do it and my buddy didn't want to do it. I heard what he told them and they were not harsh words. These F****** are just crazy. We should not have gone over there, I told my friend it was a bad idea, and it was. Thanks.


There has to be more to the story than that!

If you friend was head butted on the porche and you witnessed the event you could have still filed Assualt Charges on the neighbor.

There had to have been some kin of bruising/discoloration etc from a head butt.

Also, there must have been some pretty harsh words for an individual to do the assualt.

Why would you go over to a suspected bangers house at night?

As a gunowner in CA you should know that you have ZERO rights to defend property and life unless you are in fact in a tub with no exit. CA has no Castle Doctrine laws.

Like the other guys said, if you rent it is now time to move. Or time to sell. Either way, they are probably illegal and nothing is going to happen to them. You are the one screwed by this event.

Ok, if they continue to bother you guys, then just call the cops on them and get a series of complaints going against them. Eventually with enough visits for the Sheriff it will be hard for them to conduct business, and they will grow tired of screwing with you.

hawk81
09-07-2009, 11:01 AM
I called the cops immediately, while I was getting my handgun. I'm sure I called first. The deputies did go down there, but I was the one being detained and made to sit on the curb.


Were there no injuries from the headbut?? You called the SO reporting 5 gangmembers with guns chasing you into your house. And the deputys came after you and left the gangmembers alone? I wonder if the gangmembers called also.

hawk81
09-07-2009, 11:05 AM
I was by my garage door watching them, I have other people in the house and I needed to protect them. I never left my propert and never pointed my gun at the gang banglets. Although they did see I had a firearm and they stopped pursuing. They got within 25 yards before they stopped.

Were you indoors or out of doors with your firearm? If you were inside your house and not in an area deemed "public" by our liberal judges, then the cops were wrong. Plain and simple as there was no question as to their intent.

Laws requiring retreat wouldn't apply even if we didn't have a weak castle doctrine on the books as you had already retreated.

As others said, I would encourage your friend to file assault charges. If the police were unwilling to investigate such a claim, I'd move.

Ryan

hawk81
09-07-2009, 11:05 AM
Yes, this is a good idea.


I think some video cameras for documentation would be good in the future in dealing with the cops/courts.

hawk81
09-07-2009, 11:09 AM
Thanks for the advise.


If you are not going to move, I would get video cams and recorders for each, mount them high and with views of front, inside, and back yard.

There should be a police report, get a copy. I would go down to the Sheriffs office and talk with the person in charge and explain the situation, and ask them why no arrest was made, and how should you handle any further incidents? Create a paper trail, show you have been trying to resolve this matter, that way if things get nasty, you have documentation.

If you can afford it, talk to a criminal/firearms attorney, you'll have their name and number if it goes wrong, and get advise on the nuts and bolts of what to do if something goes wrong, and your right.

If it goes wrong, DO NOT talk to the cops, state your right to silence, and tell them you want your attorney present before any questions are answered, and nothing more.

Edit to add: If you own more than one firearm, I would take all the others to a family member or friend you can trust, to hold on to them, and only keep one on hand for defensive purposes, and make sure you have a locking safe/cabinet that is secure to keep it in while you are out of the house.

Maestro Pistolero
09-07-2009, 11:10 AM
I implore you you get proactive legally. Make friends with the gang unit. Make them take reports and get copies.
You need a better paper trail than the cops showing up and taking no action against these MFs. If you have a family, there, move. Otherwise, fck these guys. Press charges on the assault, get a TRO (cheap, as I understand it), which means their house gets searched and all guns taken away. You probably could then push for an emergency issued CCW, but you may need a lawyer, and don't even try until you have the charges filed and the TRO.

Then, of course the dumb-asses will get new (probably stolen) guns or have their buddies come after you, at which point you have the legal authority and basis to end the matter somewhat more permanently. Do not be under-armed.

hawk81
09-07-2009, 11:12 AM
I wish I could have done that, but all 3 of those cops were wanting to arrest me. I really don't feel like going to jail and hiring attorneys.


Let me get this straight you attempt a peaceful conversation with gang members to figure out what is wrong they assault you chase you down with deadly weapons onto your property. You are more or less inside your home being inside your garage and you brandish a firearm in fear of your life and save your life:hide: in doing so and the cop tries to take away your gun and your right to carry it violating your first and second amendment rights and does nothing to the gang members.:eek::ack2: I would of told that cop your not taking my gun and card I'm taking your gun and badge. I would of asked him for his badge number and written it down right there in front of him and said I'm filing a complaint with the Riverside, CA. Office of Internal Affairs (http://www.riversideca.gov/rpd/ChiefOfc/IA.html) and watch beads of sweat poor of his head as he gets steaming mad:toetap05:. Next time you do something like this have a digital recorder in your shirt like the open carry guys do so they can record police brutality from cops harassing them.

JustGone
09-07-2009, 11:12 AM
umm this would have not happened if he did not knock on their doorsteps. if he just ignore them the situation would not escalate from bad to worst.

Is it wrong, when you have a problem, to go to the source and try to talk it out and solve the problem in civilized manner. Or ignore everything and let it keep happening?

The world we live in is gettin more dangerous by the day, to where you can't go talk to your neighbor about something that bothers you...

What a sad world....

Letitrip
09-07-2009, 11:14 AM
I cant imagine what you were thinking when you agreed to go with your friend to confront those folks. That was poor decision making.

I don't think it matters if they were Hispanic gang-bangers, White-supremacist, Asian thugs, or African American whatevers. Did you really think that you guys were going to come out of that situation shaking hands and toasting some beers?

You will definitely need to start thinking about everything you do and don't do. Cameras are a very good idea, as well as talking to neighbors, and being prepared for anything.

hawk81
09-07-2009, 11:16 AM
Thanks for the advise. They did say that if they got another complaint from me they were going to send it in to the department of consumer affairs bsis.


1) The police view your friend, the one going to 'talk' as the instigator/agressor. The neighbor probably said he head butted your friend to defend himself from an intruder.

2) The charges for assault and the brandishing charges against the pursuers should have been pressed at the time of the field investigation.

3) The California Constitution Article 1, Section 1 says all people have inalienable rights, among them are enjoying and defending life, liberty, aquiring, possessing, and protecting property...though Im not sure why this came up- the assailants werent trying to take or destroy anyone's goods. I think is might have been something the officer jammed into this situation to tell you that you did the wrong thing.

4) You did exactly the right thing by putting your gun in the safe before they arrived and telling the officers to go get a warrant. You were properly excercising your 4th and 5th amendment rights. Otherwise I am certain you would have been deprived of it before they left.

5) You should have left your guard card and gun card out of it. The mere fact that you presented them in this situation tells me you also gave them photo id. This was not necessary and your employement documents may still be in jeopardy. If you are not in uniform and not conducting duties of your employment leave the guard card and gun card out of it. As for presenting photo id- this was not necessary. When asked for picture ID, I would have said "Its in the safe next to the gun, go get a warrant"... and they would have to be satisfied with my name and address.

6) You friend is now in a pickle- Staying means he will have to endure whatever the punks want to dole out. Leaving means that the territory is ceded to scumbag criminals who will intimidate and vicitimize those all around them. If your friend stays, he must put a coalition of sympathetic neighbors together who are determined to make it difficult for scumbags to live there. Anything less will result in your friend being injured or killed.

hawk81
09-07-2009, 11:18 AM
I'm sorry, I can not make peace with people that threatened my life and friends life. I am not that type of person. No offense.


What is the problem that your neighbors are having?



Honestly? First Id try and make peace. How you go about doing that depends on what kind of people they are at the core. Id look for the person that the others look up to and figure out how to approach that person to initiate a conversation. To do that you really have to figure out what makes them tick and then go from there.

Also there may be some sort of dispute resolution officer or something like that in your area that the cops might be able to point you to.

Escalating the situation by calling the cops whenever possible is an option but one I'd use as a last resort if a peaceful resolution isn't possible.

Regarding the cops it looks to me like they were just trying to educate you AND protect you.

1. Be aware of what constitutes admissible evidence. If you're going to play the game make sure you know the rules and cover your butt.
2. Dont brandish a weapon to stop an incident where you have an escape option or no reasonable fear of getting killed or being gravely injured. Brandishing your 1911 while standing in your open garage door is not exhausting all possible options to avoid violence.
3. Make sure that if you are going to draw your weapon that you have the circumstances of a good shoot on your side, i.e. you follow California law.
4. The cops really are on your side and gave you s**t to educate you about what you can and can not do otherwise my guess is that youd be arrested for brandishing already and your guard card might be in jeopardy.

Oh yeah, one more thing, no good deed goes unpunished.

Maestro Pistolero
09-07-2009, 11:19 AM
IIRC, they have to press charges if you insist, You have two witnesses. Also get a copy of their incident report so you can dispute, in writing, any inaccuracies or prejudices. Don't wait on any of this, start making calls and writing today. Ask to meet with the supervisors of the responding officers. Let them know you are very concerned that the response was innapropriate and insufficient. Record the conversation and follow up with an email so there is a written record of the meeting. The day after is a good day to show that you are unhappy with the police handling of the incident, and that you expect a better response in the future.
This may seem like a PITA, but it will all go in your favor if you have to do the unthinkable. You'll be SOOO glad you did.

hawk81
09-07-2009, 11:20 AM
Thanks for the advise.


I implore you you get proactive legally. Make friends with the gang unit. Make them take reports and get copies.
You need a better paper trail than the cops showing up and taking no action against these MFs. If you have a family, there, move. Otherwise, fck these guys. Press charges on the assault, get a TRO (cheap, as I understand it), which means their house gets searched and all guns taken away. You probably could then push for an emergency issued CCW, but you may need a lawyer, and don't even try until you have the charges filed and the TRO.

Then, of course the dumb-asses will get new (probably stolen) guns or have their buddies come after you, at which point you have the legal authority and basis to end the matter somewhat more permanently. Do not be under-armed.

mmartin
09-07-2009, 11:22 AM
...get a TRO (cheap, as I understand it)
should be free to file it, was last time I did one.

... but you may need a lawyer
sounds like a good preemptive idea... get some advice on what you can/can't do from someone who has seen it all in court and how it works out in the *real* world.

if it were me, I'd be scared. and I'd be taking all the precautions a frightened person would reasonably take. because if I did have to shoot them in my house, I'd sure want to be able to say, "look, I did all these things to try to protect myself long before it came to this." TRO, police reports, video cameras, the works.

and, worth considering, it's too late to protect the family once they've been shot in a drive by. me, I'd be moving. not just to protect myself from the bangers, but to protect myself from having to deal with all the fallout after I have to shoot one in my house.
megan

yoteassasin
09-07-2009, 11:24 AM
i got a great idea lets all get cameras and HIDE ! PURE B.S. ! what you guys did may not have been the smartest thing to do but it was not the wrong thing. The bangers are the wild card in this situation. run and hide or stand and fight your choice. You can maintain the Puss satus quo or you can be the catalyst for change. it doesn't sound like your neighborhood was a great place to live before this happened and it sure isn't now and at least you are aware you need to defend yourself and fam...... what would i do? hmmmmm ..
burn 'em out. run them out.. get rid of them it sounds like you might have some allies on the block use that to your advantage

Maestro Pistolero
09-07-2009, 11:33 AM
Scout out a good position to hide in with good cover, and a clean line of sight, so when they try to do a drive-by, they will find out it comes with significant personal risk. ;)

SwissFluCase
09-07-2009, 11:37 AM
Who owns their house? Do they rent? You can always go after the landlord.

How do the rest of the neighbors feel about them? If the whole neighboorhood dislikes them you can sue them out of the neighboorhood. I've seen it done before...

Are they cooking meth? Call the fire department if you smell anything. They don't need a warrant...

Talking to a lawyer will tell you how dirty you can get without crossing the line.

As for the police, there are no bad soldiers, only bad leaders. Create problems at the top. Your task might be more along the lines of getting corrupt elected officials out of office than going after the foot soldiers.

Be creative. Get intelligence. Never show weakness.

Get everything on tape, except that which won't help you.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

mmartin
09-07-2009, 11:40 AM
Scout out a good position to hide in with good cover, and a clean line of sight, so when they try to do a drive-by, they will find out it comes with significant personal risk. ;)

I'm guessing they don't have jobs, so they've got 24/7. how about you?
edited to add: ah, sorry, missed the wink. thought you were serious.
megan

Maestro Pistolero
09-07-2009, 11:48 AM
I'm guessing they don't have jobs, so they've got 24/7. how about you?
edited to add: ah, sorry, missed the wink. thought you were serious.
megan
No. I was serious. Obviously if he's at work he wouldn't need cover. And I'm not suggesting he spend his days lying in wait. (And I don't think you thought I meant that either)

If he's home and they start firing rounds into his house he needs to have a plan to take cover. If that cover were to include a
'line of sight', so much the better. A few 1 oz. 12 gauge slugs through the door of the attacking vehicle from an unexpected position of cover can be a convincing . . . deterrent. (know your backstop in advance)

But do the legwork with the authorities first. Hopefully it will never come to all this. Look, these guys are going to prison sooner or later. If you force the issue, be prepared, don't step outside of the law, get the police on your side whatever that takes, you can help them get wherever they're going sooner.

00BuckShot
09-07-2009, 11:59 AM
Somethings not adding up here. First, I'm hearing two different Department names being thrown around here. Was it RSO or RPD that responded to the call? None of which are going to ask for your gun if the account of your story is accurate. Second, you really expect us to believe that 5 gang members chased you into your garage and the cops were asking to take your firearm? There's a lot more to this story than you seem to be letting on. In fact, I wouldn't be so sure that you and your buddy weren't more or the cause than the effect. Sounds like bad decisions were made on both sides of this coin. If you want permission from calgunners to go over there and cap their asses, you're not going to get it. Mind your own business, quit trying to enact vigilante justice and quit giving the Riverside cops even more reason to hate honest gun owners. BTW...your "guard card" didn't save you. If they didn't take your gun, it's because they didn't need to. I've come to learn that most of the guard card carriers think that they have some right to be off duty cops. In fact they have very few rights that most law abiding citizens don't have. Throwing a card in front of the officer probably made him want to take your gun even more, but he knew he had no basis to. IMO, you should move. You probably made a situation worse for you and your buddy.

Maestro Pistolero
09-07-2009, 12:08 PM
Somethings not adding up here. First, I'm hearing two different Department names being thrown around here. Was it RSO or RPD that responded to the call? None of which are going to ask for your gun if the account of your story is accurate. Second, you really expect us to believe that 5 gang members chased you into your garage and the cops were asking to take your firearm? There's a lot more to this story than you seem to be letting on.
So far, so good, healthy skepticism.
In fact, I wouldn't be so sure that you and your buddy weren't more or the cause than the effect. Sounds like bad decisions were made on both sides of this coin.
You lost me there. You might be right, but you couldn't possibly know that from the OP unless you're psychic. For there to be a meaningful discussion, we should assume good will. Blindly assigning ill-intent to an OP who has earnestly and humbly (as far as we could possibly know) shared a frightening story, serves no good purpose on a forum such as this.
If you want permission from calgunners to go over there and cap their asses, you're not going to get it. Mind your own business, quit trying to enact vigilante justice and quit giving the Riverside cops even more reason to hate honest gun owners.

Now your train went right off the rails. Nowhere did the OP EVER suggest such a thing. Nowhere was vigilante justice suggested or even hinted at until until you came out of left field with it. Although you are correct that no-one at Calguns would suggest such a thing, unless you are on staff you don't speak for calguns.

BTW, getting chased by a pack of armed criminals meets or exceeds any standard by which a defensive shooting can be judged. If the OP was guilty of anything, it may be hesitating too much. How you derive a vigilante mentality out of that is a mystery to me.

Joe
09-07-2009, 12:08 PM
I think some video cameras for documentation would be good in the future in dealing with the cops/courts.

this

radioman
09-07-2009, 12:48 PM
Man talk about a rock and a hard spot, you are there. first how much will you need for bail? and what will take for a lawyer? then ask, what will it take to move? if this is a gang and you kill poco, they will want revenge! this can"t end well, you have gotten some good advice here, I would take it, stand and fight is all good and well, but this is not 1873 and you will be hung out to dry, that is the sad fact. I'm not saying that is how it should be, but that is the way it will go. Never ever do that again. I bid you good luck and hope you find your way out of this mess..

bwiese
09-07-2009, 12:57 PM
As a gunowner in CA you should know that you have ZERO rights to defend property and life unless you are in fact in a tub with no exit. CA has no Castle Doctrine laws.

Please stop spreading BS based on rumor and misunderstanding. It's always the noobs.

Read the F**kn law. 198.5 PC indeed is a fairly good rendition of a castle doctrine law, you have the right to defend you & yours' life & limb on your property. I would say that for practical reasons to restrict that to in your house (as opposed to yard).

BigBamBoo
09-07-2009, 1:09 PM
Get a restraining order against them - that would also disarm them for the duration, if I am not mistaken.

btw i think you now have "good cause" for a ccw also a restraining order will better the "good cause"

You have to be careful with this....I know of two instances here where person A filed a RO on person B. The judge granted it....for BOTH parties. So now YOU will be disarmed and have to fight to get the RO lifted on yourself.

I am always curious when someone points a finger at a person or persons and calls them "gang bangers" Do you know for a FACT they are gang members? Do you classify them as gang members from their race? By the way they dress? Please expand on this.

As for moving...why? If you start running it can become habit...and also...you can't run from yourself. If you or your "buddy" are in the right...then stand up for yourself/your rights.
That is the problem with this country...everyone wants to rely on someone to protect them. And guess what?? Your getting what you want...but with that comes laws...laws that say you no longer can protect yourself or it limits how and when you can. And now we are where we are because people did not want to stand up for them self.

All I can say is I am glad I do not live in the city...and I am glad I don't go knocking on my neighbors doors when they give me dirty looks.

Good luck,Stan

oops
09-07-2009, 1:10 PM
never show your weapon prior to pulling the trigger.. staying inside until they come for you is the only option I can see that you may avoid prison after the fact... I agree with the previous posts and think a good lawyer and will be needed..

this isn't done yet and you should plan like this will get worse (legally and physically).. also like a few others said. If you own many guns have them taken to a friends for storage and keep what you need loaded at home (in safe when gone) good luck my friend.. I hope this blows over

radioman
09-07-2009, 1:18 PM
198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.

As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant
or substantial physical injury.

cheese
09-07-2009, 1:24 PM
I am always curious when someone points a finger at a person or persons and calls them "gang bangers" Do you know for a FACT they are gang members? Do you classify them as gang members from their race? By the way they dress? Please expand on this.


I was wondering the same thing. 2 of them had handguns so i would assume they were over 21 with no felonies. Kind of rare for gangbangers

radioman
09-07-2009, 1:25 PM
197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.


198. A bare fear of the commission of any of the offenses mentioned
in subdivisions 2 and 3 of Section 197, to prevent which homicide
may be lawfully committed, is not sufficient to justify it. But the
circumstances must be sufficient to excite the fears of a reasonable
person, and the party killing must have acted under the influence of
such fears alone.

Talk to a lawyer first!!!!

hawk81
09-07-2009, 1:31 PM
Thanks for the advise. The neighor of these punks is a friend of my buddy that got head butted. He is in the process of trying to get them removed from the house. The neighborhood isn't that bad, except for these punks.


i got a great idea lets all get cameras and HIDE ! PURE B.S. ! what you guys did may not have been the smartest thing to do but it was not the wrong thing. The bangers are the wild card in this situation. run and hide or stand and fight your choice. You can maintain the Puss satus quo or you can be the catalyst for change. it doesn't sound like your neighborhood was a great place to live before this happened and it sure isn't now and at least you are aware you need to defend yourself and fam...... what would i do? hmmmmm ..
burn 'em out. run them out.. get rid of them it sounds like you might have some allies on the block use that to your advantage

Maestro Pistolero
09-07-2009, 1:35 PM
That is ridiculous. How does anyone, except the burglar, know what the intent of the break-in is?

As an extreme example, if a mentally retarded child or an unarmed, really intoxicated person who wasn't threatening you wandered into your house. Common sense would not generally dictate that these persons should be killed for their mistake.

There are a million variables, including your state of mind, and physical condition, size, age, history of victimization, time of day or night, whether children are present in the house, etc. etc. etc. That's why the word 'reasonable' invariably ends up somewhere in such statutes. It is impossible to proscribe a law to cover every possible scenario.

hawk81
09-07-2009, 1:35 PM
Not necessarily full on gangbanglets, possibly wannabee gangbanglets. I know for a fact they are not good people. I have worked armed security in the past in some bad areas, and these people would fit right in those areas.


You have to be careful with this....I know of two instances here where person A filed a RO on person B. The judge granted it....for BOTH parties. So now YOU will be disarmed and have to fight to get the RO lifted on yourself.

I am always curious when someone points a finger at a person or persons and calls them "gang bangers" Do you know for a FACT they are gang members? Do you classify them as gang members from their race? By the way they dress? Please expand on this.

As for moving...why? If you start running it can become habit...and also...you can't run from yourself. If you or your "buddy" are in the right...then stand up for yourself/your rights.
That is the problem with this country...everyone wants to rely on someone to protect them. And guess what?? Your getting what you want...but with that comes laws...laws that say you no longer can protect yourself or it limits how and when you can. And now we are where we are because people did not want to stand up for them self.

All I can say is I am glad I do not live in the city...and I am glad I don't go knocking on my neighbors doors when they give me dirty looks.

Good luck,Stan

radioman
09-07-2009, 1:35 PM
189.5. (a) Upon a trial for murder, the commission of the homicide
by the defendant being proved, the burden of proving circumstances of
mitigation, or that justify or excuse it, devolves upon the
defendant, unless the proof on the part of the prosecution tends to
show that the crime committed only amounts to manslaughter, or that
the defendant was justifiable or excusable.
(b) Nothing in this section shall apply to or affect any
proceeding under Section 190.3 or 190.4.

The law cuts both ways

hawk81
09-07-2009, 1:41 PM
The officers were with the riverside sheriffs department. I live in Corona, but the riverside sheriffs patrol our area.


Somethings not adding up here. First, I'm hearing two different Department names being thrown around here. Was it RSO or RPD that responded to the call? None of which are going to ask for your gun if the account of your story is accurate. Second, you really expect us to believe that 5 gang members chased you into your garage and the cops were asking to take your firearm? There's a lot more to this story than you seem to be letting on. In fact, I wouldn't be so sure that you and your buddy weren't more or the cause than the effect. Sounds like bad decisions were made on both sides of this coin. If you want permission from calgunners to go over there and cap their asses, you're not going to get it. Mind your own business, quit trying to enact vigilante justice and quit giving the Riverside cops even more reason to hate honest gun owners. BTW...your "guard card" didn't save you. If they didn't take your gun, it's because they didn't need to. I've come to learn that most of the guard card carriers think that they have some right to be off duty cops. In fact they have very few rights that most law abiding citizens don't have. Throwing a card in front of the officer probably made him want to take your gun even more, but he knew he had no basis to. IMO, you should move. You probably made a situation worse for you and your buddy.

obeygiant
09-07-2009, 2:21 PM
You could always report the incident anonymously online here (http://www.riversideca.gov/rpd/problems/rpdtip.htm)

Gryff
09-07-2009, 2:22 PM
File a grievance with the sheriffs department that your life was threatened and the deputies did nothing about it, then proceeded to harass you.

Then move.

If you have kids, move today.

Unfortunately, this is simply running away, but if you were to do the truly just thing (anyone smell smoke?), you're going to prison.

Alaric
09-07-2009, 2:22 PM
I can't believe no one has suggested it yet... LOC party at Hawk's place? Not that I'm suggesting it, that wouldn't be reasonable.

There's been a lot of good advice given in this thread, and some very bad, very reactionary and very scared advice. Bottom line is that you have the right to protect lives in your home. Be smart and concentrate on that. Watch your back, get a dog (if you don't have one), installing a good security system with IR cameras, motion detectors, lights, etc. Don't let your guard down. But you don't have to move either. It's the attitude that you should just move when confronted with a bad situation that eventually sacrifices neighborhoods to scumbags. It's your neighborhood, not theirs.

And by the way, there's nothing wrong with talking to your neighbors to try to resolve a problem. If these were really gangbangers though, I'd say you were probably naive and unprepared for the outcome. Should've expected they would respond with violence. If the idea was to intimidate them somehow, well, that obviously didn't work.

They sound young, like renters maybe? Or maybe living with someone's mom? Maybe you'd have better luck talking to the person listed on the rental agreement or the landlord. Just the threat of filing a civil suit against the landlord can sometimes be enough to get them to evict a bad tenant.

Rukus
09-07-2009, 3:39 PM
I am always curious when someone points a finger at a person or persons and calls them "gang bangers" Do you know for a FACT they are gang members? Do you classify them as gang members from their race? By the way they dress? Please expand on this.

I'm with Stan on this point. Do you know for a fact that they are criminals or gangbangers? What exactly do you mean by the statement that "they would fit in" to the rough areas of town.

I know that based off my appearance, (younger hispanic male, shaved head, tattooed) people often have an biased opinion of me. Fact is I have no record, never been arrested, and am one of the most laid back people you have ever met.

I think right off the bat you made the mistake of confronting these guys when it wasn't necessary. If they had been taunting your friend thats one thing, but if they had been threatening his life or his family thats a completely different and more serious issue. Personally if I had someone come to my doorstep with his friend standing guard I wouldnt be too receptive to what he had to say. I would take it as a semi hostile act or an attempt at intimidation.

My best advice would be to report any suspicious activities that take place in the neighborhood. Try and establish a legit string of complaints with the RSO and hopefully the attention from LE will drive off the unsavory characters. If they truly are involved with shady (illegal) activities they won't sit around and wait to get busted on something, but they prolly won't take the action without some type of retaliation.

Seesm
09-07-2009, 3:47 PM
OP my spider sense says there is maybe something MORE here to the whole story...

What a terrible, I MEAN TERRIBLE idea to knock on a gang banger(s) or WANNA BE gang banger(s) home to tell them or ask them NOT to mad dog you as you drive by. WHat was HE thinking and then to you... Why would think it was a good idea?

Looking past all THAT.

Bad people are looking for people to pick on and do bad things to. (Not saying these bad looking people are bad as I do not or have not seen it face to face)

BTW I have some CRAZY looking friends who are not bad people, shaved tatss peircing, etc etc... Some of them are just FREAKS... :)

But people in general who are hanging out with GANGS of people do this for a reason. It took 5 or so to follow you home right?

You should have got into your home and waited till they came in and if you feared for your life because at that point (with them chasing you home with guns and now in your home threatening you) you could have 5 or 6 well placed shot and cleaned up your neighborhood.

Your in fear of your life now right? If not you should be.

Look out, cuz they will be.

BTW good luck... Oh yeah and file some type of report with LEO because the cops should be on your side for the most part if what your saying is true.

mmartin
09-07-2009, 4:19 PM
Second, you really expect us to believe that 5 gang members chased you into your garage and the cops were asking to take your firearm?

let me just say from personal experience, yeah, that sounds *exactly* like what would have happened. and good thing the gun was back in the safe, because, again, from personal experience, they'll search even if you say you do NOT give permission, and they'll confiscate even if legally owned and registered. then you at least have to go through the hoops to get it back. oddly enough, I've seen "no you do not have permission to search" quoted in the police report as "sure, go ahead."
Megan

mmartin
09-07-2009, 4:25 PM
No. I was serious. Obviously if he's at work he wouldn't need cover. And I'm not suggesting he spend his days lying in wait. (And I don't think you thought I meant that either)

If he's home and they start firing rounds into his house he needs to have a plan to take cover. If that cover were to include a
'line of sight', so much the better. A few 1 oz. 12 gauge slugs through the door of the attacking vehicle from an unexpected position of cover can be a convincing . . . deterrent. (know your backstop in advance)

But do the legwork with the authorities first. Hopefully it will never come to all this. Look, these guys are going to prison sooner or later. If you force the issue, be prepared, don't step outside of the law, get the police on your side whatever that takes, you can help them get wherever they're going sooner.

ok, I get your be-prepared approach. just thinking about all the oportunities when kids or wife is home and he's not, driving in and parking and getting from car to house, being indoors or out... cannot imagine trying to live in that environment. know your rights and your cover, sure, but that kind of open gun battle situation doesn't stop the bangers from shooting at each other just because they're likely to get shot back at. if it did, they'd have stopped already.
megan

1923mack
09-07-2009, 4:32 PM
As others have stated, sound like a good reason to file a restraining order. Restraining orders are one way to get a CCW if that appeals to you. Tough situation. I have not had the bad experience you describe with the Riverside County Sheriffs Department. Lets hope it was just the officer you happened to get. Check with the supervising officer and see what you can learn.

pretz
09-07-2009, 4:36 PM
Thanks for the advise. The neighor of these punks is a friend of my buddy that got head butted. He is in the process of trying to get them removed from the house. The neighborhood isn't that bad, except for these punks.

One tactic you may try (it has worked for me) is get the cops and the neighbors on your side. Become easily recognized as "one of the good guys".

If you haven't one already, organize a Neighborhood Watch. Do not structure it as a "Crime Busters" entity, but rather, as a social opportunity. You will want to meet your neighbors and the police that patrol your area. I suggest an afternoon barbeque and friendly "meet and greet" session.

Be sure to invite ALL your neighbors, especially the ones you are in conflict with, and a representative from the Sheriff's Department. If your opponents are gang bangers, they will not show, but they will be painfully aware that the whole neighborhood is inviting a close and warm relationship with Law Enforcement. (If your local LE's are really bright, they will park their car directly in front of your opponents' house.)

Like I said, this is a social opportunity to get to know your local LE and your neighbors. *****ing about conflicts you have with certain folk is not advisable, and using words like "Mexican" and "gang-banger" makes you look like someone who is actually causing all the problems.

Nothing wrong with fortifying your home or moving away, but it is cheaper and more fun to be on really good terms with all around you, especially the Sherriffs.

mmartin
09-07-2009, 4:41 PM
I was wondering the same thing. 2 of them had handguns so i would assume they were over 21 with no felonies. Kind of rare for gangbangers

assuming, of course, they were the kind of folks who adhere to the law and would never, say, have a handgun illegally. or do anything else illegal. like chase a neighbor down the street with their legally owned handguns.

If you consider chasing the neighbor down the street while armed as indicators of their law abiding character, I'm thinking it's not too big a stretch to consider they might have broken other gun related laws as well.

just thinkin' out loud here... Megan

Giovani X
09-07-2009, 4:42 PM
The police are no longer here to "protect and serve"... the job description now is " imposing force" they are not here to help keep you safe. They are here to keep the government ( at all levels) safe from you the citizen. If you want to stay in your place you might want to invest in a video surveillance system. At least you will have evidence if anything goes down. Best of luck to you and your family in this F***ed up situation. Be safe and above all stay calm and collected. No good decisions are ever made hastily. Best of luck brother.

mmartin
09-07-2009, 4:47 PM
never show your weapon prior to pulling the trigger.. staying inside until they come for you is the only option I can see that you may avoid prison after the fact...

ok, got a question there... not too unusual for bangers to just shoot into the house without bothering to come in. depending on what they're shooting, the house may or may not offer great protection. standing in the garage facing them down let's them know you're armed, gives them a chance to reconsider their decision. no deterent value to hiding inside, and may or may not be good protection. so, as a tactic, why's hiding inside better than standing them down in the garage? (ignoring the legal issues for the moment... )
megan

cheese
09-07-2009, 4:52 PM
assuming, of course, they were the kind of folks who adhere to the law and would never, say, have a handgun illegally. or do anything else illegal. like chase a neighbor down the street with their legally owned handguns.

If you consider chasing the neighbor down the street while armed as indicators of their law abiding character, I'm thinking it's not too big a stretch to consider they might have broken other gun related laws as well.

just thinkin' out loud here... Megan
I considered that but the op never mentioned the neighbors getting their guns confiscated or arrested so thats why i made the assumption they werent felons. If any were felons i think they would have been arrested if they were around firearms.
I think the term "gangbanger" is used loosly around here. I wouldnt be suprised if many young calgun members would fall into the "gangbanger" category based on some of the stereotypes i read around here.

Meplat
09-07-2009, 4:52 PM
I'm with Stan on this point. Do you know for a fact that they are criminals or gangbangers? What exactly do you mean by the statement that "they would fit in" to the rough areas of town.

I know that based off my appearance, (younger hispanic male, shaved head, tattooed) people often have an biased opinion of me. Fact is I have no record, never been arrested, and am one of the most laid back people you have ever met.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, don't be surprized if it gets shot during duck season.

I think right off the bat you made the mistake of confronting these guys when it wasn't necessary. If they had been taunting your friend thats one thing, but if they had been threatening his life or his family thats a completely different and more serious issue. Personally if I had someone come to my doorstep with his friend standing guard I wouldnt be too receptive to what he had to say. I would take it as a semi hostile act or an attempt at intimidation.

And gives you the right to head butt him and chase him down the street with a gang of armed friends?

My best advice would be to report any suspicious activities that take place in the neighborhood. Try and establish a legit string of complaints with the RSO and hopefully the attention from LE will drive off the unsavory characters. If they truly are involved with shady (illegal) activities they won't sit around and wait to get busted on something, but they prolly won't take the action without some type of retaliation.

You seem to know a lot about the habits of gang bangers.


Lose the chip it will eventually get you in trouble.

Maestro Pistolero
09-07-2009, 5:40 PM
ok, got a question there... not too unusual for bangers to just shoot into the house without bothering to come in. depending on what they're shooting, the house may or may not offer great protection. standing in the garage facing them down let's them know you're armed, gives them a chance to reconsider their decision. no deterent value to hiding inside, and may or may not be good protection. so, as a tactic, why's hiding inside better than standing them down in the garage? (ignoring the legal issues for the moment... )
megan

Standing in his open garage he can be a open target whether armed or not. Inside the house provides some physical protection and conceals his exact whereabouts. Depending on the caliber being used, the rounds may have vastly diminished effect after passing through stucco, fiberglass, wood and drywall.

Further, if they actually enter the house the law swings to his side, because now it's an armed invasion. Doorways are kind of nice because the numbskulls have to go through one at a time. Convenient. Now that they know he is armed, they are unlikely to break in while he is there, but if they do, there will likely be a number of them and armed to the teeth.

Based on the OPs description of their behavior, it doesn't seem to me a stretch to characterize them as bangers or wannabes. Terrorizing neighborhoods is kind of what gangs do. Since the miscreants chased them down with guns and bottles, why should they get ANY benefit of the doubt as far as what he calls them. Their race or ethnic background should not be an issue, but their behavior IS.

Rukus
09-07-2009, 6:48 PM
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, don't be surprized if it gets shot during duck season.
Obviously the guys in question are running afoul of the law by chasing someone down the street with a gun. That point is not in question, what is in question is whether or not they are actual gang members or if this is an assumption based on looks and not based on actions

And gives you the right to head butt him and chase him down the street with a gang of armed friends?
I never stated that it gave them the right to do anything physically violent. All I was saying was that IMO if a guy shows up at my doorstep and has a friend standing behind him as "back up" I'm not going to take the visit as a sign of friendship. Naturally it would put ME in a defensive mode.

You seem to know a lot about the habits of gang bangers.
So does everyone else that voiced an opinion in this thread



Again this situation has no easy way out. Poor decisions were made on both sides.

Maestro Pistolero
09-07-2009, 7:49 PM
As far as we know the only poor decision on behalf of the OP was to try to reason with apparent criminals. Though it's no small miscalculation, it was apparently well intended.

I would like to challenge the OP to at least hold the LE accountable to do their jobs instead of blaming the victims here. There have been several good suggestions here regarding how to approach that. If he does nothing, he will have contributed to the problem, all this talk will be rather pointless, and by his inaction, he will have reinforced the notion that he and his friend were somehow partly to blame. Maybe they were. We shall see. Perhaps the OP could update us on what he decides to do.

SanSacto
09-07-2009, 7:53 PM
Ah, yes. Perfect time for another Paul Kersey referenece.

http://cdn-images.hollywood.com/cms/300x375/5318339.jpg

falawful
09-07-2009, 8:06 PM
Wow. Doesn't sound like fun.

I'd go full court press, talk to the coppers, city councilman (or whatever), and neighbors.

Were it me, being chased down the street by folks w/handguns = in fear for my life = acquired sight picture, etc.

Get in gear with the cops, etc....

guayuque
09-07-2009, 8:13 PM
You know, every deputy I know with the Riverside Sheriff would be very interested in a complaint of people running down the street with handguns. Something is not adding up.

I fact, I'll give you an example. Our adopted daughter graduated from SDSU with a degree in film. She had to do a movie for her senoir project and we let her crew use our mountain home. They were filing in the forest about two years ago (creepy scenery after the fires). So, at about 10:30 pm when they were wrapping it up, some a-hole with a pellet gun impersonated a federal agent, had them lay in the mud, and scared the hell out of them. One of the kids was smart enough to kill the generator for the lights and they all ran away in the dark. We had about ten units there in about ten minutes and the kids gave a description. The cops went to the house of every know dummy in the area (we get some real winners in the mountains) and rousted them all and searched houses. It was the talk of the mountaintop by morning.

Anyway, two days later the kids spotted the guy and my brorther in law and I went over there to see if anyone was home. The guy was long gone since he had word the cops were serious. Turns out the bum was a contractor hired to do some work inside the home he was satying in just by the film site. And, a neighbor said he sees the scumbag shooting his pellet gun all day at birds and squirrels and such. Also turns out he ripped off the home owner and did no work and his truck was his ex-girlfriend's and he had basically stolen the thing. I did speak with the homeowner and he basically confirmed that the guy had ripped him off and bailed.

Bottom line, it was raining, it was cold, windy, and the cops were beating down the doors of every known meth freak, probationer, etc. on the mountain top It is something they really take seriously, gun play.

fd15k
09-07-2009, 8:43 PM
Do you mean you're LE yourself, and deputies knew somebody of your family got attacked ?

You know, every deputy I know with the Riverside Sheriff would be very interested in a complaint of people running down the street with handguns. Something is not adding up.

I fact, I'll give you an example. Our adopted daughter graduated from SDSU with a degree in film. She had to do a movie for her senoir project and we let her crew use our mountain home. They were filing in the forest about two years ago (creepy scenery after the fires). So, at about 10:30 pm when they were wrapping it up, some a-hole with a pellet gun impersonated a federal agent, had them lay in the mud, and scared the hell out of them. One of the kids was smart enough to kill the generator for the lights and they all ran away in the dark. We had about ten units there in about ten minutes and the kids gave a description. The cops went to the house of every know dummy in the area (we get some real winners in the mountains) and rousted them all and searched houses. It was the talk of the mountaintop by morning.

Anyway, two days later the kids spotted the guy and my brorther in law and I went over there to see if anyone was home. The guy was long gone since he had word the cops were serious. Turns out the bum was a contractor hired to do some work inside the home he was satying in just by the film site. And, a neighbor said he sees the scumbag shooting his pellet gun all day at birds and squirrels and such. Also turns out he ripped off the home owner and did no work and his truck was his ex-girlfriend's and he had basically stolen the thing. I did speak with the homeowner and he basically confirmed that the guy had ripped him off and bailed.

Bottom line, it was raining, it was cold, windy, and the cops were beating down the doors of every known meth freak, probationer, etc. on the mountain top It is something they really take seriously, gun play.

M9Man
09-07-2009, 8:46 PM
Why don't you call Clint Eastwood he seems to know how to handle gang bangers :D

http://www.imfdb.org/images/8/81/GT-M1911A1-4.jpg

guayuque
09-07-2009, 9:06 PM
Do you mean you're LE yourself, and deputies knew somebody of your family got attacked ?

No, not LE. I happen to have friends and clients that are deputies or were, is all. Just the way it worked out over the years.

5150Marcelo
09-07-2009, 9:16 PM
A buddy of mine in the neighborhood asked me to come along with him to talk to some hispanic neighbors about some problems he was having with them.

What about this whole ordeal has anything to do with race?????

freonr22
09-07-2009, 10:10 PM
if they are realy into gang banging, they will just make you their punk @ their convienence, 1 day or 6 months from now. It will not matter what you do, there is a cousin somewhere to address you later

Peter W Bush
09-07-2009, 10:15 PM
What about this whole ordeal has anything to do with race?????

None of it. Looks like he is simply using descriptors to add detail to his story.

Meplat
09-07-2009, 10:19 PM
Just make sure you get it going real good at all the exits real fast.:43:



if they are realy into gang banging, they will just make you their punk @ their convienence, 1 day or 6 months from now. It will not matter what you do, there is a cousin somewhere to address you later

taladeganite
09-07-2009, 11:01 PM
A situation like this happened to somone close to me recently.. the police response was similiar.. he immediately wrote a letter to the PD. regarding his dis-satisfaction with their response, he went so far as to get signatures from the responding officers..spooked em too.. he included the T word (terrorist threats), as there were verbal threats on his life made in this case... and within 24 hours the Police Chief was personally calling him.. if u go about it in a legally pressing way.. U might get the response u desire.. these fools ..(wannabe wang bangers) have no business having their freedom... Ive personally seen this mentality..(witnessed 2 drive bys from my home, but not on my home)... as well as a mexican stand off.. it was ridiculous..

Steve O
09-07-2009, 11:12 PM
wow!!!! what the hell. next time leave your door open so when they come in your bedroom armed You can hose them. other than that good luck.. like everyone else i would suggest moving, NOW!

^^^

anthonyca
09-07-2009, 11:14 PM
How long did it take before the cops wanted your gun? Did you tell them about showing the gun or did the "gangbangers"? The cops and DA are not your friend in most cases. There is an old post similar to this one where a guy thought he was in the right and gave the DA his case on a silver platter by talking to the cops and telling his story, the DA pressed charges months later.

Don't ever talk to the police. There are too many laws to know about and telling the same story twice with different times or embellishments added can really mess up your day.

What a bad situation. Sorry to hear you were caught up in this. I used to live in a bad area and this kind of thing happens all the time. Most of us do not want to be victims and if you stand up things like this happen.

SVT-40
09-07-2009, 11:55 PM
Thanks for the advise. We could of filed charges but the cops really didn't seem to want to do it and my buddy didn't want to do it. I heard what he told them and they were not harsh words. These F****** are just crazy. We should not have gone over there, I told my friend it was a bad idea, and it was. Thanks.

So your "buddy" did not want to file any charges. It sounds like that was the reason the Deputies were not really interested in pursuing anything. Did you ask the Deputies to take a report on your behalf regarding brandishing a weapon by the alleged "gang members" ?

You made no mention of that.

Could you actually identify the individuals who allegedly had the firearms? Or could you only give a generic description?

What did you expect from the deputies when "the victim" doesn't want to do anything?

Without a victim there was no crime. Once your friend said he did not want to do anything well then that was that. Not the fault of the Deputies. Next time stand up and make a report. That gives LEO's something to work with.

Don't blame the Deputies when in fact it was your friend who failed to follow through.

Invisible_Dave
09-08-2009, 12:10 AM
By definition isn't standing in your garage waving a gun to stop a potential threat brandishing? The law seems to define deadly force threats as an on/off switch. Seems that according to the law you should draw and fire, but at no time should the weapon be seen as a deterrent. If the threat wasn't real enough to draw and fire, other actions ie closing the door could have been taken. I know this isn't really formed into a flowing thought but I'm tired and its late. Maybe this is a thought starter for someone more coherent.

curtisfong
09-08-2009, 12:35 AM
The cops and DA are not your friend in most cases. There is an old post similar to this one where a guy thought he was in the right and gave the DA his case on a silver platter by talking to the cops and telling his story, the DA pressed charges months later.

Don't ever talk to the police. There are too many laws to know about and telling the same story twice with different times or embellishments added can really mess up your day.

This is exactly why it astounds me when politicians whine about how residents in bad areas refuse to cooperate with police when it comes to cracking down on criminals.

Hey, newsflash, people in bad areas distrust cops because cops (and DAs) even treat the good guys like criminals.

SVT-40
09-08-2009, 10:34 AM
This is exactly why it astounds me when politicians whine about how residents in bad areas refuse to cooperate with police when it comes to cracking down on criminals.

Hey, newsflash, people in bad areas distrust cops because cops (and DAs) even treat the good guys like criminals.

If you look at the info reported by the O/P to a D.A. it would look like this.

The "victims" went to the "suspects" home to confront them, where there was a verbal dispute.

The "Suspect" headbutted the "victim"

The "Victims" fled home being chased by the "suspects" who reportedly had handguns.

The "victim" armed himself and brandished his handgun at the "suspects".

The "suspects" left and there were no further incidents.

The D.A. would then have to consider "intent". Did the "victims" go to the "gang members" house to start trouble?

So who were the primary aggressors?

One party was headbutted by another.

Both parties brandished firearms at each other.

There are always two sides to each story. so we don't know the "gang members" side.

So even if the "victim" had made a report, prosecution would not be a cut and dried matter.

Never the less, the decision to prosecute or not was taken out of the hands of the D.A. by the "victims" as THEY elected NOT to pursue the matter.

On a final note. If you have an issue with "gang members" don't confront them. They will act like gang members and probably stomp you. It's kind of like sticking your arm in a tigers cage and then wondering why the tiger would bite off your arm.

Next time call the police and let them deal with the issue.

KylaGWolf
09-08-2009, 10:51 AM
Here is the key phrase REASONALBE fear of in danger is a legal reason to self defense. Now the word reasonable can be argued from here to the end of time. What the law means a reasonable fear or a normal person.

I will say though that going to a "gang bangers" house to confront them is a stupid thing to do. If they were in fact terrorizing your friend he/she could file a complaint for teorristic threats. Would it do any good in stopping said threats probably not but if there is a record of these then there is a chance that he could take further legal actions if they continued.

OlderThanDirt
09-08-2009, 12:36 PM
.
.
.
it's always good to remember who's woods you're in... round here the woods belong to the riverside PD.

remember the case last year or so where the PO pulled over a drunk-and-evading, got the passenger (a recently returned vet) on the ground, told him to get up and then shot him 3 times when he did? PO was not successfully prosecuted on that, they got a lesser charge, but not what they should have. nevermind the whole thing was on the cruiser cam.

that's our neck of the woods. know who's woods you're in.

just sayin'.
megan

Sounds like the citizens and taxpayers need to chop down a bunch of trees. The woods belong to the citizens of the community and the police are only allowed to do their job at the pleasure of the populace. LE is a very tiny minority that only exists because people let them. It sounds like there needs to be some serious attitude adjustment at the top of this department. We all answer to someone.

5150Marcelo
09-08-2009, 12:39 PM
You should join a gang now and get back up. lol

mmartin
09-08-2009, 1:13 PM
Sounds like the citizens and taxpayers need to chop down a bunch of trees. The woods belong to the citizens of the community and the police are only allowed to do their job at the pleasure of the populace. LE is a very tiny minority that only exists because people let them. It sounds like there needs to be some serious attitude adjustment at the top of this department. We all answer to someone.

it's a good assessment, and there's no groundswell for fixing it that I can find. periodically these incidents rise to the level of media event and there's some short-lived outrage, but the county is so large and disjointed nothing ever comes of it. not living in Riverside county any more, and that's part of why. the bully-factor on LE is just too high and I don't have the price of the lawyer's fees it would take to get me in the game.
megan

Maestro Pistolero
09-08-2009, 3:15 PM
Illegally "brandishing a weapon in a rude and threatening manner" is not legally the same thing as drawing and pointing and/or weapon for defense against a reasonably perceived threat to ones life. It is a misuse of the word 'brandishing' to confuse the two.

hawk81
09-08-2009, 8:02 PM
Update: Last night, monday night-tuesday morning (9-08-09) one of the members of the home that harassed us and assaulted my friend drove by our house at 1:00 am. My brother was outside watering and said the driver was eye balling him. The driver drove straight back to his home. My brother said 30 minutes later a group full of hispanic males drove by (5 people in the car), they drove in and out of our culdesac eyeballing him as well. No phyisical altercations have occured so far. I told my younger brother to wake me if anything unusual or anything involving violence occurs. I am very prepared, I sleep with a FN police riot shotgun with 00 buck. I truly hope I do not have to defend my family or myself. But if I do, I will fight to the death.

anthonyca
09-08-2009, 8:10 PM
Update: Last night, monday night-tuesday morning (9-08-09) one of the members of the home that harassed us and assaulted my friend drove by our house at 1:00 am. My brother was outside watering and said the driver was eye balling him. The driver drove straight back to his home. My brother said 30 minutes later a group full of hispanic males drove by (5 people in the car), they drove in and out of our culdesac eyeballing him as well. No phyisical altercations have occured so far. I told my younger brother to wake me if anything unusual or anything involving violence occurs. I am very prepared, I sleep with a FN police riot shotgun with 00 buck. I truly hope I do not have to defend my family or myself. But if I do, I will fight to the death.

Good luck. I have been in a similar situation, very bad place to be.

hawk81
09-08-2009, 8:13 PM
I refuse to live in fear, if the perpetrators want to bring it to another level, then I am well prepared. I will defend my family and myself. I have been in bad situations, and I know how to handle them.

fd15k
09-08-2009, 8:14 PM
Sounds like you're very prepared for retaliation. But if it comes to that, you've already lost the fight, and it will be too late for all of your firepower.
Like people suggested before in this thread, you have to take preventive
measures and make sure it never comes to violence, or at least make
everything possible for that.

Update: Last night, monday night-tuesday morning (9-08-09) one of the members of the home that harassed us and assaulted my friend drove by our house at 1:00 am. My brother was outside watering and said the driver was eye balling him. The driver drove straight back to his home. My brother said 30 minutes later a group full of hispanic males drove by (5 people in the car), they drove in and out of our culdesac eyeballing him as well. No phyisical altercations have occured so far. I told my younger brother to wake me if anything unusual or anything involving violence occurs. I am very prepared, I sleep with a FN police riot shotgun with 00 buck. I truly hope I do not have to defend my family or myself. But if I do, I will fight to the death.

obeygiant
09-08-2009, 8:25 PM
Update: Last night, monday night-tuesday morning (9-08-09) one of the members of the home that harassed us and assaulted my friend drove by our house at 1:00 am. My brother was outside watering and said the driver was eye balling him. The driver drove straight back to his home. My brother said 30 minutes later a group full of hispanic males drove by (5 people in the car), they drove in and out of our culdesac eyeballing him as well. No phyisical altercations have occured so far. I told my younger brother to wake me if anything unusual or anything involving violence occurs. I am very prepared, I sleep with a FN police riot shotgun with 00 buck. I truly hope I do not have to defend my family or myself. But if I do, I will fight to the death.

Keep a notebook/log of all the times that they come by your house and include all of the obvious details:

date/time
#of people in car or on foot
description of the vehicle including license plate
physical descriptions
clothes that they are wearing
anything that they say or do whether that be yelling or flashing gang signs


If you have a digital camera take pictures of all the above and or video if it supports it.

Call it in to the Sheriff each and every time they do it no matter how much grief they give you. Also record the date/time and who you spoke with at the Sheriffs department in your notebook.

ETA:

I just got off the phone with Corona PD and their recommendation is to call and ask to speak to the watch commander and explain why this was not handled properly. Also explain to them that they are now driving by your home and that you are afraid for the wellbeing of yourself and your family. They also recommended that you file a complaint against the deputies if they indeed did mishandle the situation on the original call.

I would also go down to the Sheriff's office during the day and file a complaint against the neighbors and bring your notebook/log, pictures and video that you may have captured with you.

KylaGWolf
09-08-2009, 8:43 PM
Keep a notebook/log of all the times that they come by your house and include all of the obvious details:

date/time
#of people in car or on foot
description of the vehicle including license plate
physical descriptions
clothes that they are wearing
anything that they say or do whether that be yelling or flashing gang signs


If you have a digital camera take pictures of all the above and or video if it supports it.

Call it in to the Sheriff each and every time they do it no matter how much grief they give you. Also record the date/time and who you spoke with at the Sheriffs department in your notebook.

I would go down to the Sheriff's office during the day and file a complaint and bring your notebook, pictures and video that you may have captured with you.

ETA:

Also try reporting it to the Corona Police Department if you aren't getting anywhere with the Sheriff. Here's (http://www.ci.corona.ca.us/index.cfm?section=City%20Departments&page=Police&viewpost=2&ContentId=346) the contact information

Exactly the right thing to do. If there is a continued documentation that there is an issue with this is more evidence to show that you are acting in self defense if the worst happens.

hawk81
09-08-2009, 8:47 PM
Thank you for your help. I will contact corona pd. I have to get up at 3 am and I am having trouble sleeping. Riverside sheriff is useless.



Keep a notebook/log of all the times that they come by your house and include all of the obvious details:

date/time
#of people in car or on foot
description of the vehicle including license plate
physical descriptions
clothes that they are wearing
anything that they say or do whether that be yelling or flashing gang signs


If you have a digital camera take pictures of all the above and or video if it supports it.

Call it in to the Sheriff each and every time they do it no matter how much grief they give you. Also record the date/time and who you spoke with at the Sheriffs department in your notebook.

ETA:

I just got off the phone with Corona PD and their recommendation is to call and ask to speak to the watch commander and explain why this was not handled properly. Also explain to them that they are now driving by your home and that you are afraid for the wellbeing of yourself and your family. They also recommended that you file a complaint against the deputies if they indeed did mishandle the situation on the original call.

I would also go down to the Sheriff's office during the day and file a complaint against the neighbors and bring your notebook/log, pictures and video that you may have captured with you.

guayuque
09-08-2009, 8:49 PM
Documentation, video, photos, all good. But, I do not understand why you would risk getting into a firefight where you or your family might take round. I think I would move.

Also, call the Riverside DA's office. They may be more proactive.

obeygiant
09-08-2009, 9:11 PM
Thank you for your help. I will contact corona pd. I have to get up at 3 am and I am having trouble sleeping. Riverside sheriff is useless.

Np, but just to clarify. You should contact the Sheriff's watch commander not corona PD as they will only tell you what I posted earlier.

KylaGWolf
09-08-2009, 9:13 PM
Documentation, video, photos, all good. But, I do not understand why you would risk getting into a firefight where you or your family might take round. I think I would move.

Also, call the Riverside DA's office. They may be more proactive.

Moving isn't always practical or even feasible. We a different situation here. But more like crazy druggie neighbor. Well he finally got evicted but he still comes around the complex so the nightmare still isn't over for us. Even if we moved this dude would more than likely find another way to be bad news for us and anyone else he comes in contact with. As he put it we can't get rid of him....and so far it seems to be right on target.

One reason when I am home my HK 9mm is loaded and ready to go. This guy is mentally unstable enough when he is off the drugs and booze multiplied 1000 fold when on the stuff.

RandyD
09-08-2009, 9:24 PM
I am an attorney and have dealt with a number of neighbor situations. I hate the thought of advising you to move, because it is running from a problem, but if LE is not going to be supportive, and your situation deteriorates into a deadly force confrontation you may find yourself being charged with a crime or if someone in your household is harmed or worse, in hindsight you will have wished that you moved. You need to think this through.

You have the grounds to seek a restraining order and I would suggest finding an attorney who understands this area of the law.

Regarding LE, they arrive on a scene and their first priority is to settle all emotions and determine who is the aggressor. The fact that you and your neighbor went to their house, may have created the perception that the two of you were the initiators. You need to change LE's mind. Call them and schedule a meeting and go prepared to that meeting. You can also write a detailed letter setting out the factual circumstances and ask for a meeting. My point about requesting a meeting is that those who engage in less than legal activities do not usually ask to meet with LE to discuss problems. Again the key word here is perception, if you are perceived as trying to correct LE's initial assessment, trying to resolve a dangerous situation ect LE may eventually come around to seeing the situation as you do. This is a significant circumstance to have on your side if the situation deteriorates.

There is a lot of good advice in the prior posts, and a few not so good suggestions. You need to do some critical thinking and make a plan on what to do in all contingencies.

I think your neighbor did not do you any favors by refusing to press charges. I have seen this many times, the weak get walked on. LE are people and I think that they sensed that you and your neighbor were willing to give in and they walked all over you by getting forceful with you and wanting to confiscate your firearm.

obeygiant
09-08-2009, 9:30 PM
Documentation, video, photos, all good. But, I do not understand why you would risk getting into a firefight where you or your family might take round. I think I would move.

Also, call the Riverside DA's office. They may be more proactive.

Other than the original incident it does not sound as if it has escalated to the point of a firefight. Picking up and moving is not as easy as it sounds unless you happen to be single with no dependents,in college and the sum of your assets will fit into the back of your car or truck.

Even if it was feasible, what should he do between the time he decides to move and however long it takes him to secure a new place to live? (no need to answer this)

The prudent course of action is to document what has and is taking place and turn this issue over to the Sheriff. If there is a lack of action on their part then you turn it over to the DA.

Going to the DA first is unlikely to win you any favor with the local authorities and may not even be considered by the DA until you have gone through the proper channels.

guayuque
09-08-2009, 9:35 PM
Other than the original incident it does not sound as if it has escalated to the point of a firefight. Picking up and moving is not as easy as it sounds unless you happen to be single with no dependents,in college and the sum of your assets will fit into the back of your car or truck.

Even if it was feasible, what should he do between the time he decides to move and however long it takes him to secure a new place to live? (no need to answer this)

The prudent course of action is to document what has and is taking place and turn this issue over to the Sheriff. If there is a lack of action on their part then you turn it over to the DA.

Going to the DA first is unlikely to win you any favor with the local authorities and may not even be considered by the DA until you have gone through the proper channels.

Pacheco (Riverside DA), of whom I am know fan, does seem to respond when he senses he can get some newsprint or votes. If the OP had a few neighbors calling up he might get something going.

And, I do get the practicalities, but I was under teh impression, perhaps erroneouslly, that the OP was a renter. if that;s teh case, pleanty more facile to move.

Another approach here is to find out who the landlord for the knuckleheads are and notify them that his tenants are armed and threatening the neighbrohhod and that should somethig happen the landlord may be liable, having knowledge of them being armed and threatening. Usually, that will get the landlord's attention.

obeygiant
09-08-2009, 9:39 PM
I am an attorney and have dealt with a number of neighbor situations. I hate the thought of advising you to move, because it is running from a problem, but if LE is not going to be supportive, and your situation deteriorates into a deadly force confrontation you may find yourself being charged with a crime or if someone in your household is harmed or worse, in hindsight you will have wished that you moved. You need to think this through.

You have the grounds to seek a restraining order and I would suggest finding an attorney who understands this area of the law.

Regarding LE, they arrive on a scene and their first priority is to settle all emotions and determine who is the aggressor. The fact that you and your neighbor went to their house, may have created the perception that the two of you were the initiators. You need to change LE's mind. Call them and schedule a meeting and go prepared to that meeting. You can also write a detailed letter setting out the factual circumstances and ask for a meeting. My point about requesting a meeting is that those who engage in less than legal activities do not usually ask to meet with LE to discuss problems. Again the key word here is perception, if you are perceived as trying to correct LE's initial assessment, trying to resolve a dangerous situation ect LE may eventually come around to seeing the situation as you do. This is a significant circumstance to have on your side if the situation deteriorates.

There is a lot of good advice in the prior posts, and a few not so good suggestions. You need to do some critical thinking and make a plan on what to do in all contingencies.

I think your neighbor did not do you any favors by refusing to press charges. I have seen this many times, the weak get walked on. LE are people and I think that they sensed that you and your neighbor were willing to give in and they walked all over you by getting forceful with you and wanting to confiscate your firearm.

This is also good advice and the OP needs to weigh the risk and determine what is going to be the best course of action for him and his family.

obeygiant
09-08-2009, 9:42 PM
Pacheco (Riverside DA), of whom I am know fan, does seem to respond when he senses he can get some newsprint or votes. If the OP had a few neighbors calling up he might get something going.


I don't live in Riverside county nor do I know anything about the DA. If that is the case and the Sheriff is unwilling to help then absolutely go straight to the top of the food chain.

And, I do get the practicalities, but I was under teh impression, perhaps erroneouslly, that the OP was a renter. if that;s teh case, pleanty more facile to move.

Another approach here is to find out who the landlord for the knuckleheads are and notify them that his tenants are armed and threatening the neighbrohhod and that should somethig happen the landlord may be liable, having knowledge of them being armed and threatening. Usually, that will get the landlord's attention.

I agree, this may also be a good course of action but it could also result in escalating the situation once the landlord contacts the tenants to find out if the claims are true.

cineski
09-08-2009, 11:20 PM
I gotta say, to the people telling the OP to go make peace with the scum.....Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? That's exactly what his friend did to escalate the situation into this clustergrind. To the OP, you are not dealing with normal people. I mean that in the worst possible way. You are dealing with righteous scum. A co-worker of my girlfriend grew up and lived her whole life in SCLA. Tells all kinds of stories about gang bangers. Her ex-boyfriend was recently killed, 4 bullets to the abdomen because a girl he was dating was threatened by her ex, and the ex-boyfriend hit him. People in the "community" know who did it. They won't tell the cops.....because they want to take care of it themselves. Revenge killing. Point being the retaliation is often worse than the catalyst.

One thing I know for sure, if I ever have gang bangers move around my neighborhood, I'm gone. Off to someplace else (they're already too close for comfort). Nothing worse than utter ignorance balled up in insecure violent machisimo. I'd suggest you get out or you may end up dead. Sucks, but that's the growing way of Metro LA's gang and gang adjacent areas. The only pleasant experience I've had in the place dealing with cops was with the Santa Monica PD. Stellar people. Most others I've dealt with are so effected by scum they become scum themselves. Unfortunate, but that's just my experience.

fd15k
09-08-2009, 11:30 PM
Sir, you got it all wrong. Nobody is saying to make peace. Everybody is saying to escalate it through Law Enforcement, instead of preparing for and executing a gunfight. Well, preparing doesn't hurt, just don't rely on a gunfight as a possible solution.

I gotta say, to the people telling the OP to go make peace with the scum.....Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? That's exactly what his friend did to escalate the situation into this clustergrind. To the OP, you are not dealing with normal people. I mean that in the worst possible way. You are dealing with righteous scum. A co-worker of my girlfriend grew up and lived her whole life in SCLA. Tells all kinds of stories about gang bangers. Her ex-boyfriend was recently killed, 4 bullets to the abdomen because a girl he was dating was threatened by her ex, and the ex-boyfriend hit him. People in the "community" know who did it. They won't tell the cops.....because they want to take care of it themselves. Revenge killing. Point being the retaliation is often worse than the catalyst.

One thing I know for sure, if I ever have gang bangers move around my neighborhood, I'm gone. Off to someplace else (they're already too close for comfort). Nothing worse than utter ignorance balled up in insecure violent machisimo. I'd suggest you get out or you may end up dead. Sucks, but that's the growing way of Metro LA's gang and gang adjacent areas. The only pleasant experience I've had in the place dealing with cops was with the Santa Monica PD. Stellar people. Most others I've dealt with are so effected by scum they become scum themselves. Unfortunate, but that's just my experience.

Maestro Pistolero
09-08-2009, 11:41 PM
Hawk, since you said these guys chased you with guns, why didn't you press charges? Two days have gone by and you still haven't held LE's feet to the fire? I don't want to doubt your story, But what AREN't you telling us here?

BTW, if carload of these MFs come by shooting, you better have more than one fully stoked shotgun. Those 7 or 8 rounds are going to go fast. And you better have good cover and help.

cineski
09-08-2009, 11:44 PM
Cut and paste from page 1:

"Honestly? First I’d try and make peace. How you go about doing that depends on what kind of people they are at the core. I’d look for the person that the others look up to and figure out how to approach that person to initiate a conversation. To do that you really have to figure out what makes them tick and then go from there."

Unless I wildly misread this and missed the sarcasm, but judging by the before and after I don't think I did.

Sir, you got it all wrong. Nobody is saying to make peace. Everybody is saying to escalate it through Law Enforcement, instead of preparing for and executing a gunfight. Well, preparing doesn't hurt, just don't rely on a gunfight as a possible solution.

Maestro Pistolero
09-08-2009, 11:48 PM
Cut and paste from page 1:

"Honestly? First Id try and make peace. How you go about doing that depends on what kind of people they are at the core. Id look for the person that the others look up to and figure out how to approach that person to initiate a conversation. To do that you really have to figure out what makes them tick and then go from there."

I can't believe the ridiculousness of that suggestion, either. That was exactly what started the ball rolling. This situation is way beyond a neighborly chat.

fd15k
09-08-2009, 11:48 PM
Yes, and calgunners said report to PD, file for restraining order, etc... Lonely warrior with a shotgun is hardly a match for a bunch of gang wannabees with hell knows how much firepower. Also he isn't technically alone, he got family members who don't seem to be much of gunfighters.

Seriously, why are we still talking about comic-book approach ?

Cut and paste from page 1:

"Honestly? First Id try and make peace. How you go about doing that depends on what kind of people they are at the core. Id look for the person that the others look up to and figure out how to approach that person to initiate a conversation. To do that you really have to figure out what makes them tick and then go from there."

Unless I wildly misread this, but judging by the before and after I don't think I did.

Maestro Pistolero
09-09-2009, 12:04 AM
Hawk, until you act on the suggestions for TRO, and force the issue with the police, you are really in a precarious situation, as far as your safety is concerned and legally. If don't at least do these important things you're losing credibility here, in my opinion.

The responding officers had the "opinion" that you and your buddy escalated this. You can bet that is in their report, which, as far as I know, you still haven't requested a copy. If you do have to shoot, it may be seen as an further escalation of a scene their report says you helped create.

I implore you to get proactive with the supervisor of the responding officers, and get the record set straight. Press charges, and get a TRO, or you may be F'd if this situation goes where it looks like it is going.

SDgarrick
09-09-2009, 12:16 AM
Temporary restraining order.

easy to get.

postal
09-09-2009, 1:03 AM
Sounds like the citizens and taxpayers need to chop down a bunch of trees. The woods belong to the citizens of the community and the police are only allowed to do their job at the pleasure of the populace. LE is a very tiny minority that only exists because people let them. It sounds like there needs to be some serious attitude adjustment at the top of this department. We all answer to someone.

Nice as it sounds....

think of it like being pro 2A 3 yrs ago....

That's the kind of uphill battle we have to fight.... and no "heller" in "2 weeks!" to look forward to.

I'd say Megan is spot on in every post.

My encounters with RSO have been alright. I like them tenfold better than RPD- RPD scares the hell outta me.

Everyone in the nation has heard of RPD- shoot first ask questions later...

Nothing has changed REALLY- Apparently theyve been put on a shorter leash and havent gleaned much media attention of late... but nothing has really "changed".

Several months ago I heard about Team Billy Jack going after RPD for not issuing CCW, and that died a disturbingly quiet death.... Apparently they were able to get a CCW for one "special" client, and not affect any policy changes on the whole. I'm dissappointed, but dont get me wrong, I very much appreciate any and all team BJ can and have done- They just for whatever undisclosed reason were not able to go BIG on RPD.

So even Team Billy Jack doesnt seem to have much influence on the Evil Empires notorious RPD... and you think us "enemy of the popo for having guns" is going to change anything? No offence intended, just want to point out the realities of living in "cowtown" or "dirtcity".

For everyone that questions the OP about "bangers" and Mexican etc.... The OP never mentioned ANY race- just that he thought they were bangers, or wannabe bangers.... everyone else filled in the blanks. Stop giving him a hard time about it.

steelrain82
09-09-2009, 2:16 AM
look what you have to do is go to a bad side of town find shady people buy an illegal automatic strap on some body armor and at night when they should be sleeping with a homade water breeching charge:12: make entry and with some serious speed surprise and violence of action:68: eliminate the op and dump the weapon and when your done call the police and say it sounds like a shootout across the street and when the cops come by all you have is a pistol or shotty.................:dots: seriously dont do that. i just finished playing the original rainbow six. but you really need to file reports and follow the good advice that has been given on here. its also a good idea to prepare for possible retaliation though by teaching the family how to shoot and or making an escape plan for your family if something does happen and its massive

Meplat
09-09-2009, 2:23 AM
Moving isn't always practical or even feasible. We a different situation here. But more like crazy druggie neighbor. Well he finally got evicted but he still comes around the complex so the nightmare still isn't over for us. Even if we moved this dude would more than likely find another way to be bad news for us and anyone else he comes in contact with. As he put it we can't get rid of him....and so far it seems to be right on target.

One reason when I am home my HK 9mm is loaded and ready to go. This guy is mentally unstable enough when he is off the drugs and booze multiplied 1000 fold when on the stuff.

No one would investigate very thourally if he turned up dead.

dreamerof1
09-09-2009, 7:09 AM
Nice as it sounds....
For everyone that questions the OP about "bangers" and Mexican etc.... The OP never mentioned ANY race- just that he thought they were bangers, or wannabe bangers.... everyone else filled in the blanks. Stop giving him a hard time about it.

Well, this is quit a long drawn out drama event. A buddy of mine in the neighborhood asked me to come along with him to talk to some hispanic neighbors about some problems he was having with them...

Really?

cineski
09-09-2009, 10:15 AM
Easier to violate.

Temporary restraining order.

easy to get.

Ron-Solo
09-09-2009, 10:30 AM
It sounds like you live in an unincorporated area of Corona, so calling Corona PD is a waste of your time and theirs. Riverside Sheriff has jurisdiction over the area you live in.

FYI, "Eyeballing" or "Mad Dogging" is not a crime. I've seen more people shot because he "looked at me wrong" than I can count. Get over it.

Every time the neighbors do something you believe is illegal or threatening to you or your family, CALL THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT.

DO NOT CONFRONT THEM YOURSELF ! If you go to their house, especially after the initial incident, YOU will be deemed the primary aggressor and will end up going to jail.

No one ever wins a pissing contest.

Ron-Solo
09-09-2009, 10:36 AM
If you look at the info reported by the O/P to a D.A. it would look like this.

The "victims" went to the "suspects" home to confront them, where there was a verbal dispute.

The "Suspect" headbutted the "victim"

The "Victims" fled home being chased by the "suspects" who reportedly had handguns.

The "victim" armed himself and brandished his handgun at the "suspects".

The "suspects" left and there were no further incidents.

The D.A. would then have to consider "intent". Did the "victims" go to the "gang members" house to start trouble?

So who were the primary aggressors?

One party was headbutted by another.

Both parties brandished firearms at each other.

There are always two sides to each story. so we don't know the "gang members" side.

So even if the "victim" had made a report, prosecution would not be a cut and dried matter.

Never the less, the decision to prosecute or not was taken out of the hands of the D.A. by the "victims" as THEY elected NOT to pursue the matter.

On a final note. If you have an issue with "gang members" don't confront them. They will act like gang members and probably stomp you. It's kind of like sticking your arm in a tigers cage and then wondering why the tiger would bite off your arm.

Next time call the police and let them deal with the issue.

Bingo! :43:

cheese
09-09-2009, 10:39 AM
It sounds like you lice in an unincorporated area of Corona, so calling Corona PD is a waste of your time and theirs. Riverside Sheriff has jurisdiction over the area you live in.

FYI, "Eyeballing" or "Mad Dogging" is not a crime. I've seen more people shot because he "looked at me wrong" than I can count. Get over it.

Every time the neighbors do something you believe is illegal or threatening to you or your family, CALL THE SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT.

DO NOT CONFRONT THEM YOURSELF ! If you go to their house, especially after the initial incident, YOU will be deemed the primary aggressor and will end up going to jail.

No one ever wins a pissing contest.

This thread would be nonexsistent if this would of happened. How often does confronting "gangbangers" end in a peaceful resolution?

BigBamBoo
09-09-2009, 10:57 AM
I am still waiting for the proof or at least clarification on what makes you think they are gang bangers.

Just because someone has a large family or lots of friends...does not make them a gang or gang members.

Do you label them as gangsta's because of the way they dress? Or the color of their skin?

I have been told I look like a gangsta....when I ask "why"?? I am told by the way I dress, carry myself, the car I drive, and my anti-social attitude.

Well I guess then based on that...I am right in my assumption that every body who wears Wrangler jeans or a cowboy hat is a red neck. And anyone who drives a BMW or Benz is a yuppy. Or anyone who is poor and lives in a mobile home is a tweaker.

To the OP...you need to just leave it be. It is like anything else...give it attention and it will continue to gain momentum. Being a cop caller and whiner will just further escalate the problem. The cops will get tired of hearing from you. And if something REALLY happens...they might not even show up at that point.
I personally never have called the cops for anything in my life...I have had bad dealings with them and the only time I have had contact with them is when I was usually being taken to jail or getting a ticket. I handle my own problems...remember that the law is there for those who chose to be governed by it.

Let it go and after a time your "gang bangers" will lose interest in you and move on to the next person or thing that they can get some response from.

Good luck to you,Stan

mmartin
09-09-2009, 11:16 AM
I am still waiting for the proof or at least clarification on what makes you think they are gang bangers.
Just because someone has a large family or lots of friends...does not make them a gang or gang members.
Do you label them as gangsta's because of the way they dress? Or the color of their skin?

just askin' now... in the bigger scheme of things (people likely to get shot) what does this really matter? I'm not sure it matters much if they're gangbangers or not, or if he thinks they are or not, when they're chasing him down the street with guns.

I have been told I look like a gangsta....when I ask "why"?? I am told by the way I dress, carry myself, the car I drive, and my anti-social attitude.
so I'm guessing your personal experience makes you sensitive to the label, but really, isn't this about a guy who's afraid his neighbors are going to try to KILL him? doesn't really matter much what stripe they are. dead is dead, you're not less dead because they fit some stereotype of bangers but weren't actually affiliated.

pollitically correct labeling and the addressing of stereotypes seems a small thing in this picture. they chased him down the street with guns. that's pretty much what I need to know about who they are.
Megan

BigBamBoo
09-09-2009, 11:48 AM
Hi mmartin.
I could careless about a label....it just seems that it keeps being brought up that they are "gang bangers".....I am just curious what gang they belong to (if any) and how that info was come by. Because common sense would dictate that it is not wise to approach known gang members on their own property to ask them why they are call you names or mean mugg'in you when you drive buy....at least that is what I would think.

As for people chasing my down the street...lol....well I would not put myself in a position to instigate that outcome (see above statement).

2nd...there must be a bit more to the story...again...why would someone go to there neighbor's house to ask the above questions...and why would the person headbutt the guy for just asking a question? Come on...I now some real gangsta's (my best friend is a famous rapper and a few from his group are Crips)....and for the most part they do not mix with civilians or chase people down the street with guns.

So with out anyone of being there and having first hand knowledge...it is just one sided.
I am not saying that the OP is makig this up...but from his account he was not even up on the property and does not even now what words were exchanged.

It seems strange...even from your own comments of that area and the way the po-po operate in your area....that no one went to jail? Heck...even here in Redding if someone called the cops and said there was a bunch of people running around in the streets with guns....someone would be booked.

Take care,Stan

GrizzlyGuy
09-09-2009, 12:33 PM
Should something like this happen to someone else, keep in mind that the law allows you to make a citizen's arrest:

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/837.html

"A private person may arrest another:
1. For a public offense committed or attempted in his presence.
2. When the person arrested has committed a felony, although not
in his presence.
3. When a felony has been in fact committed, and he has reasonable
cause for believing the person arrested to have committed it."

PC 12031(k) allows you to have a loaded firearm while doing that:

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12031.html

"(k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying
of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making
or attempting to make a lawful arrest."

PC 846 lets you disarm the person you are arresting:

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/846.html

"Any person making an arrest may take from the person arrested
all offensive weapons which he may have about his person..."

Although actually arresting these guys at that time would likely have been dangerous and unwise for the OP, he could at least later say that he was ATTEMPTING to make an arrest and that's why he was carrying loaded. No more issue of the garage door area possibly being considered a public place.

Don't know, but if the police are unwilling to act, the OP may still be able to insist on the police arresting these guys (to carry out his own citizen's arrest of them). OP would then be on the hook for the arrest, including possible false arrest liability if these guys managed to convince everyone that they were good little boys and OP was the bad guy.

pretz
09-09-2009, 1:50 PM
Update: Last night, monday night-tuesday morning (9-08-09) one of the members of the home that harassed us and assaulted my friend drove by our house at 1:00 am. My brother was outside watering and said the driver was eye balling him. The driver drove straight back to his home. My brother said 30 minutes later a group full of hispanic males drove by (5 people in the car), they drove in and out of our culdesac eyeballing him as well. No phyisical altercations have occured so far. I told my younger brother to wake me if anything unusual or anything involving violence occurs. I am very prepared, I sleep with a FN police riot shotgun with 00 buck. I truly hope I do not have to defend my family or myself. But if I do, I will fight to the death.

This is probably very good news for you. If your neighbors were hard-core, they would not display hostility towards you. They would keep a low profile on your street, and take you out at some other location.

Their "eye-balling" is clearly a defensive move. They are amateurs, and don't know jack about you or your capabilities. However, they do have a sense that you are on the wrong side of LE, and are not likely to launch an overt attack.

Sounds like you will be spending the future living in a state of detente, with both sides being overly concerned about the other, with no peaceful nor violent resolution.

Not to worry! In a few more years home prices will climb again, resulting in somebody moving.

dantodd
09-09-2009, 1:56 PM
If I were the OP my primary concern would be with the DA and the possibility of facing charges at some future time over this situation.

I would do everything I could to ingratiate myself to both the local DA and the SO.

Start a neighborhood watch, report only serious misconduct, try to get uninvolved neighbors to report the taunting that you say is going on as someone drives down the street. In other words do everything you can NOW to proactively beef up your profile as an upstanding citizen working hard to keep your neighborhood clean.

Don't do stupid things anymore, Grand Torino was a great movie but doesn't work so well in real life.

mmartin
09-09-2009, 2:52 PM
If I were the OP my primary concern would be with the DA and the possibility of facing charges at some future time over this situation.

I would do everything I could to ingratiate myself to both the local DA and the SO.

Start a neighborhood watch, report only serious misconduct, try to get uninvolved neighbors to report the taunting that you say is going on as someone drives down the street. In other words do everything you can NOW to proactively beef up your profile as an upstanding citizen working hard to keep your neighborhood clean.

Don't do stupid things anymore, Grand Torino was a great movie but doesn't work so well in real life.

yeah.
not to mention it ends up with the hero DEAD.
megan

Meplat
09-09-2009, 3:10 PM
I am still waiting for the proof or at least clarification on what makes you think they are gang bangers.


WTF
difference does it make. Get over it.:rolleyes:

Maestro Pistolero
09-09-2009, 3:25 PM
A GANG five armed people chased them down the street pointing guns and throwing beer bottles. Do we need more evidence than that? Whether they are in an organized gang or not, their behavior was gang-like at that moment, all this whining about stereotyping is irrelevant, since their actual behavior has already shown what they are. Get over it.

mmartin
09-09-2009, 4:05 PM
I could careless about a label....it just seems that it keeps being brought up that they are "gang bangers".....I am just curious what gang they belong to (if any) and how that info was come by.
my point really goes to *it doesn't matter* if they are aren't. not relevant, doesn't change anything at all. call 'em bangers or dirtbags, it comes to the same thing. they chased the OP down the street with guns.
Because common sense would dictate that it is not wise to approach known gang members on their own property to ask them why they are call you names or mean mugg'in you when you drive buy....at least that is what I would think.
with you on the "not wise" part of this, particularly if the OP really took them for bangers. now on the other hand, if he was thinking, "maybe they're just regular guys who through no fault of their own look like the sterotype of bangers", it might be reasonable to think "maybe we can work this all out with a nice chat."
I, personally, don't live in that rosy a world. I would look at the situation and think, "looks like the stereotypical banger, acts like the stereotypical banger", and would not *need* to know if they actually are, or what gang they belong to in order to make a wiser, as you suggest, decision of staying the h**l away from their front door.

you kind of want it both ways here... you're on the OP and other folks for assuming they're bangers without proof. and yet you're calling the OP foolish for stepping up to their door for a chat because that's an unwise thing to do with bangers.

pick a foot here...
either he *correctly* assumed they were not bangers (ignoring whatever stereotypes there might be) and a chat *was* appropriate,
or he *correctly* assumed that they are or might be bangers (based on stereotypical behavior) and *should* have stayed out of their yard.
you can't say he shouldn't assume they're bangers, then say he's foolish for knocking on the banger's door...

2nd...there must be a bit more to the story...again...why would someone go to there neighbor's house to ask the above questions...and why would the person headbutt the guy for just asking a question?

I wouldn't have gone for the chat in these circumstances... but then, I'm female, and I'm fairly convinced the world is often not a nice place. maybe he went for the chat because he thought they could work something out, negotiate a standdown. doesn't seem unreasonable, if it was any other neighbor it would seem the proper thing to do. it's only odd if you perceve these folks to be volatile and dangerous... something they proved to be.

why the headbutt? I'm *guessing* the guy took offense at something that was said. that *doesn't* mean something offensive *was* said. some folks are just hyper sensitive that way. or maybe he just likes to escalate. some folks do. maybe he's hostile, volatile and dangerous and doesn't really need a "good" reason. I mean, if he were a reasonable fellow, we'd never have had this situation in first place.

Come on...I now some real gangsta's (my best friend is a famous rapper and a few from his group are Crips)....and for the most part they do not mix with civilians or chase people down the street with guns.
maybe your friends are a better class of bangers? not associating with the ordinary civilians and all... ;) these folks, bangers or not, don't seem so civil. I don't have any gangsta friends, so the only reference points I have are hollywood and the nightly news. I'll take your word for it that your friends would never act this way. still, that these folks did isn't proof they *aren't* bangers.

So with out anyone of being there and having first hand knowledge...it is just one sided.
I am not saying that the OP is makig this up...but from his account he was not even up on the property and does not even now what words were exchanged.
well unless the neighbors pop on in here, it would have to be onesided, wouldn't it? you're not really expecting them to check in with their side of the story are you? so yeah, stipulated, one-sided. obviously and expected. and re-read the original post. he was on property and he heard what was said.
It seems strange...even from your own comments of that area and the way the po-po operate in your area....that no one went to jail? Heck...even here in Redding if someone called the cops and said there was a bunch of people running around in the streets with guns....someone would be booked.
actually what seems strange, based on my experience with this area, is the the OP and his friend didn't get arrested. I don't have any experience with calling the SO on folks who might be bangers and who've chased me down the street with guns, so I don't have an opinion on if not rousting them is typical or not.
Megan

hawk81
09-09-2009, 5:43 PM
Listen, I have called the riverside sheriff on this matter and they do have an incident report on this matter. I can pick it up in 10 days, although it will probably do no good. I don't know what these F***** are (Hoodlums, punks, gangsters, wannabes, homies, tattooed up hispanics that are crazy). I don't care what they are. All I know is that now they are constantly driving by my house between 12:00am and 3:00 am. I feel my family may be in danger. I am not sleeping well and I am not very happy. Yes I have reported it to the police today. That is all, I am going to bed now so I can watch for them at midnight until 4:30am. I have to leave to work at 4:30am. Luckily my brother is here at the house and is unemployed at the time. He can take over my post while I am at work. These guys will probably try something late at night.

dantodd
09-09-2009, 5:51 PM
Listen, I have called the riverside sheriff on this matter and they do have an incident report on this matter. I can pick it up in 10 days, although it will probably do no good. I don't know what these F***** are (Hoodlums, punks, gangsters, wannabes, homies, tattooed up hispanics that are crazy). I don't care what they are. All I know is that now they are constantly driving by my house between 12:00am and 3:00 am. I feel my family may be in danger. I am not sleeping well and I am not very happy. Yes I have reported it to the police today. That is all, I am going to bed now so I can watch for them at midnight until 4:30am. I have to leave to work at 4:30am. Luckily my brother is here at the house and is unemployed at the time. He can take over my post while I am at work. These guys will probably try something late at night.

Good god man, please video tape the harassment. It is critical that you have documentation on who is the good guy here. The video tape won't protect your family but it will go a long way toward showing why you feared for your life if you have to use a firearm to defend yourself when these guys enter your home. Also, make sure your family is not sleeping in any rooms that are facing the street. I'm sure you know how bad an idea it would be to return fire should they choose to do a drive by. Another good use for the camera.

KylaGWolf
09-09-2009, 5:51 PM
Listen, I have called the riverside sheriff on this matter and they do have an incident report on this matter. I can pick it up in 10 days, although it will probably do no good. I don't know what these F***** are (Hoodlums, punks, gangsters, wannabes, homies, tattooed up hispanics that are crazy). I don't care what they are. All I know is that now they are constantly driving by my house between 12:00am and 3:00 am. I feel my family may be in danger. I am not sleeping well and I am not very happy. Yes I have reported it to the police today. That is all, I am going to bed now so I can watch for them at midnight until 4:30am. I have to leave to work at 4:30am. Luckily my brother is here at the house and is unemployed at the time. He can take over my post while I am at work. These guys will probably try something late at night.

I hope they don't do anything but from what you said you are ready if they do. Also I am sure you already talked to your kids about this but if you haven't you might want to since they may or may not know what is going on already.

Maestro Pistolero
09-09-2009, 6:12 PM
I'm sure you know how bad an idea it would be to return fire should they choose to do a drive by.

I don't know about that. By all means, do NOT stick a gun out your window to make a nice framed target of yourself. If you have any adjacent neighbors who are friendly to your cause, it would be great if return fire came could come from multiple unexpected directions, especially from the rear of their car. PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR BACKSTOP SO YOU AREN'T FURTHER ENDANGERING NEIGHBORS.

12 gauge rifled slugs, carefully placed from a position of cover should do nicely. Have something to transition to fast that has a lot of rounds (multiple mags) available. GET HELP, don't try this alone. Remember, their asses are dangling out in the middle of the street, YOU are behind solid cover carefully devastating then with each well-placed shot.

All that said, document with video these little drive by, dry runs of theirs. Hopefully it won't come to any of this, but make sure you have a plan that's insurmountable for them, and that your return volley is devastating. Gods speed.

mmartin
09-09-2009, 6:41 PM
PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR BACKSTOP SO YOU AREN'T FURTHER ENDANGERING NEIGHBORS.

hoping you can do this effectively while under fire... your case will not be helped if someone a block over picks up a stray one... and a bullet hole in their wall or window still likely nets *you* the felony.

it's all well and good if all your rounds get collected by the bad guy, but when was the last time you practiced shooting at targets in a moving vehicle while under fire yourself? while keeping track of your backdrop?

this is where I really see this going badly wrong...
megan

mmartin
09-09-2009, 6:51 PM
All I know is that now they are constantly driving by my house between 12:00am and 3:00 am. I feel my family may be in danger. I am not sleeping well and I am not very happy. Yes I have reported it to the police today. That is all, I am going to bed now so I can watch for them at midnight until 4:30am. I have to leave to work at 4:30am. Luckily my brother is here at the house and is unemployed at the time. He can take over my post while I am at work. These guys will probably try something late at night.

you do know not sleeping starts to interfere with your ability to think straight pretty quickly don't you? maybe you need to take the family to a hotel for a few nights and get some rest and clear your head. a bit of bad judgement got you in to this, not thinking straight won't make your judgement any better.

I'm starting to get a bad feeling I'm watching a slow motion train wreck here...

do yourself and your family a favor and take a step back here, eh?
megan

TaxAnnihilator
09-09-2009, 7:23 PM
Hawk,

To those that are suggesting TRO, keep in mind, it only lasts until the hearing for the permanent order and if for some reason they do show up to court to defend against it, there is a strong possibility that given your LE encounter, a mutual order will be granted. This generally means good-bye to your firearms. The clerk checks this box without regard to what is said, I have seen it happen even when no request was made.

I am working on your PM request.

Meplat
09-09-2009, 8:15 PM
Are you married?:43:


hoping you can do this effectively while under fire... your case will not be helped if someone a block over picks up a stray one... and a bullet hole in their wall or window still likely nets *you* the felony.

it's all well and good if all your rounds get collected by the bad guy, but when was the last time you practiced shooting at targets in a moving vehicle while under fire yourself? while keeping track of your backdrop?

this is where I really see this going badly wrong...
megan

MKE
09-09-2009, 9:35 PM
It appears none of your neighbors nor the Police seem concerned. Unless you own this home, consider moving immediately. Your family and your peace of mind isn't worth the trouble.

Don't be a hero. There is nothing good to be gained from this situation.

Maestro Pistolero
09-09-2009, 10:00 PM
If, God-forbid, the SHTF, the shotgun is the safest choice because of it's limited effective range and devastating up-close ballistics. Just be prepared that you may run out of rounds pretty quickly with multiple assailants. Keep a few extra shells in your pockets to keep feeding it until you have to transition to your handgun. Once they realize someone is shooting back they'll likely move on quickly, if they still can. To completely beat a dead horse, nothing will be more important than your position of cover and line of sight to the assailants.

Letitrip
09-09-2009, 11:38 PM
^ You sir, sound like some rambo/commando. I would seriously use caution in providing that type of advice. One day it could come right back to you and bite. Just think about it, if something serious were to go down, you may be considered an accomplice, or even the masstermind behind the incident. I'm not saying that this will in fact happen, but you are opening yourself to liability.

I'm sure the OP knows what he has to do. He is not a baby. These are simply the consequences that bad decisions sometimes lead to.

And as many have said, just because those folks are Hispanic and have tattoos, it does not make them gang members. That was simply just a stereotype by the OP. A group of nicely dressed Caucasians may have acted similarly if they though the OP and his friend were being confrontational or threatening.

freonr22
09-09-2009, 11:46 PM
my prayers are with you and your family, this gets resolved asap, whether by you moving, or some miracle, they leave a welcome pie on your doorstep

cbn620
09-09-2009, 11:53 PM
This has turned silly. I am seriously questioning the veracity of this story based on the OP's behavior. And all this mach commando crap is unneeded drama. If this story is even 1% true, getting yourself into a shootout with drive-byers is about the dumbest thing you could possibly do.

To me it sounds like a few people just saw the movie Gran Torino and are still feeling amped from the drama and excitement.

Letitrip
09-09-2009, 11:58 PM
^ **ROFL**
That is exactly what I was thinking. I could not help laughing at some of the silly responses people were making.

freonr22
09-09-2009, 11:59 PM
well things happen. I dont know him, but he has been here since 12/07 and 900 posts...

cbn620
09-10-2009, 12:04 AM
Well I have nine hundred and eight posts, and I've been here fully six months longer than he has. Does that mean I'm right and he's wrong? ;)

No, I don't think post count/join date has anything to do with anything. Either this guy is embellishing, out-right lying, or is seriously dramatizing the truth values of his situation. Even if what he is saying is 100% true he is approaching it in the worst way and refuses to take good advice.

This is utterly absurd no matter how you slice it, no matter how true it is.

tazmanian devil dog
09-10-2009, 12:11 AM
The way I see it, you two shouldn't have gone over there in the first place. However, since you can't take it back, I suggest the following:

1. Move. You are not ever going to win this one. Your safety and that of your family is not worth staying. Those P.O.S. gang members have nothing to lose by harming you and yours. You have everything to lose. Unless they break into your house in the middle of the night while you are home, the cops aren't going to take your side. Trust me on this. Remember, the average street cop isn't interested in justice, he/she is interested in simple and going home at night. Which doesn't necessarily equate with you getting treated fairly.

2. Stay out of these types of situations

3. The Riverside County Sheriffs now have you on their Sh** list. Avoid any law enforcement contacts in that county at all costs.

freonr22
09-10-2009, 12:20 AM
Well I have nine hundred and eight posts, and I've been here fully six months longer than he has. Does that mean I'm right and he's wrong? ;)

No, I don't think post count/join date has anything to do with anything. Either this guy is embellishing, out-right lying, or is seriously dramatizing the truth values of his situation. Even if what he is saying is 100% true he is approaching it in the worst way and refuses to take good advice.

This is utterly absurd no matter how you slice it, no matter how true it is.

I agree, I was just trying to say, he didnt join yesterday and no that doesnt make him right, but i would guess there is more truth than a lie. ... Just a shame the whole situation.

Maestro Pistolero
09-10-2009, 10:19 AM
^ You sir, sound like some rambo/commando. I would seriously use caution in providing that type of advice. One day it could come right back to you and bite. Just think about it, if something serious were to go down, you may be considered an accomplice, or even the masstermind behind the incident. I'm not saying that this will in fact happen, but you are opening yourself to liability.

By suggesting he actually think about how to defend his home, and keep rounds from hitting his neighbors I am a Rambo? You, sir, need to grow a set.

Moving is one option. But if he elects not to be run out of his own house by thugs, I suggest he have a plan on how to do it without making common mistakes. Like not having cover, not using the right weapon, and not firing stray rounds into his neighbors houses. Is that a commando, or someone willing to look at unpleasant possibility of an armed attack and mitigate the damage by having a plan? Putting one's head in the sand and thinking, "I have a gun, therefore I am prepared" is a mistake. That will get him killed.

You seem to forget that any of this can be only be triggered only by an illegal, criminal attack on the OP. What he does about it is up to him. And there is no shame in moving, nor any in electing to stay.

I wish him well. And may it end peacefully now.

Kestryll
09-10-2009, 10:51 AM
We have now moved in to the realm of arguing and suggesting thigs of questionable legality.

That's enough to call a stop to this thread.

OP, if you have any updates start a new thread.