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nicki
09-06-2009, 7:50 PM
Self defense and having the tools for it is obviously part of the Sikh religion.

The Sikh's tend to be in communities, many of those communities are in anti gun districts.

Do we have anyone on this board who is a practicing Sikh or has friends who are?

Seems to me that it may be productive to do some outreach. They obviously have some political pull otherwise they would not have gotten the Karpin legislation.

If we reach to the Sikhs, we may open doors to others in the Indian community.

We have already grabbed all the low hanging fruit in the court of public opinion, we now have to go for the higher fruits.

Public opinion has shifted across the US for RKBA significantly in the last few years. I belief this has happened because people have looked at the issue and concluded victim disarmanent doesn't work.

I believe most people regardless of where they come from support their right to protect their lives. The only people that I have ever met that believed the government would protect them are highly indoctrinated progressive leftists.

As long as gun rights is seen as only a "white republican issue", we limit our effectiveness in the court of public opinion.

Nicki

Sunwolf
09-06-2009, 7:53 PM
Logical.

Can'thavenuthingood
09-06-2009, 7:53 PM
That's a valid point and a good idea.

There none around my neighborhood, I think.

Vick

CitaDeL
09-06-2009, 8:09 PM
Calguns has not initiated outreach to the gay, lesbian, and transgendered community. (I know who Nikki is and I am aware of the one parade where Calgunners anonymously joined the Pink Pistols. There doesnt appear to be a forum to welcome GLTG or a 'pink pistols' area.) There is little outreach with women and youth. There is little done with ethnic minorities and nothing that I am aware of involving the handicapped.

That being the case, what merit is there in opening the debate about making inroads to the Sikh, when none have been made to the ready-made 2A outreach candidates? (In other words, should we be thinking about opening another door when we havent addressed other unestablished beach-heads...)

If we are going to do this, there should be more than just an idea...

7x57
09-06-2009, 8:19 PM
Do we have anyone on this board who is a practicing Sikh or has friends who are?


I met one because I was wearing an NRA t-shirt. He asked me if I was a member, and when I said "yes" he said "good". :-) In turn I took a guess based on his turban and asked if he was Sikh. We got along pretty well after that.

He's one of those immigrants you meet who understand the reason for the 2A so well it almost scares even the natives who think they're hard-core. :eek:

7x57

bwiese
09-06-2009, 8:29 PM
Calguns has not initiated outreach to the gay, lesbian, and transgendered community.

There are indeed Calgunnners in the LGBT community. Hell, various Calgunners marched in the Pride parade (I couldn't make it but Gene Hoffman and Don Kilmer and Ivan and other Calgunners) joined. The SF Pink Pistols leader is here on Calguns, and others do visit here.

wildhawker
09-06-2009, 8:47 PM
Just out of curiousity, have you been the mouse in my pocket, or Ben's, or Paul's, or anyone else actively taking an active role in outreach? You speak of things you do not know.

If you want to throw rocks, I'd suggest you do so after you've exited your glass house.

Calguns has not initiated outreach to the gay, lesbian, and transgendered community. There is little outreach with women and youth. There is little done with ethnic minorities and nothing that I am aware of involving the handicapped.

That being the case, what merit is there in opening the debate about making inroads to the Sikh, when none have been made to the ready-made 2A outreach candidates?

If we are going to do this, there should be more than just an idea...

berg
09-06-2009, 8:54 PM
I used to hang with a bunch of Sikhs and was surprised to learn when they reach a certain age ( I think in their teens) they go back to India for military training. This is the US-born kids who wouldn't otherwise be subject to compulsory service. I was told that they have to be ready to go back to India at any time to defend their fellow Sikhs.

Seems to me this would imply they would be pro 2A here as well.

CSACANNONEER
09-06-2009, 9:06 PM
Calguns has not initiated outreach to the gay, lesbian, and transgendered community. There is little outreach with women and youth. There is little done with ethnic minorities and nothing that I am aware of involving the handicapped.

That being the case, what merit is there in opening the debate about making inroads to the Sikh, when none have been made to the ready-made 2A outreach candidates?

If we are going to do this, there should be more than just an idea...

What the hell are you talking about? You obviously don't have a clue about the calguns community. Do you? Do you have any idea who the OP is and how much outreach she does? If only 0.5% of the calguns comunity did a tenth of the outreach that Nicki does, we would have over half the gun owners in America registered on this site within a year! You can either initiate some outreach yourself, help with someone else's outreach ideas or keep hiding under your rock and poopooing everyone else's constructive ideas.

Foulball
09-06-2009, 9:08 PM
Calguns has not initiated outreach to the gay, lesbian, and transgendered community. There is little outreach with women and youth. There is little done with ethnic minorities and nothing that I am aware of involving the handicapped.

That being the case, what merit is there in opening the debate about making inroads to the Sikh, when none have been made to the ready-made 2A outreach candidates?

If we are going to do this, there should be more than just an idea...

Wow. Just wow.

You should really pay more attention.

QuarterBoreGunner
09-06-2009, 9:15 PM
Okay so we can all agree that perhaps, CitaDel, spoke without prior knowledge, so let's move on.

I think that the idea of outreach to the Sikh community has tons of merit; so what would be the best way?

CSACANNONEER
09-06-2009, 9:19 PM
I think that the idea of outreach to the Sikh community has tons of merit; so what would be the best way?

I think the best way to start is by asking this question again:
Do we have anyone on this board who is a practicing Sikh or has friends who are?
Nicki

Steyr_223
09-06-2009, 9:22 PM
I used to hang with a bunch of Sikhs and was surprised to learn when they reach a certain age ( I think in their teens) they go back to India for military training. This is the US-born kids who wouldn't otherwise be subject to compulsory service. I was told that they have to be ready to go back to India at any time to defend their fellow Sikhs.

Seems to me this would imply they would be pro 2A here as well.

A word of caution, I work with Indians that are Hindu and Sikhs. In private my Hindu coworkers told of of the Khalistan movement. When I ask my Sikh coworkers about it, they did not want to discuss.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_movement

Some Sikhs actively promote violence for an Independent homeland in Indian Punjab areas. Not sure how the US government interprets these Sikhs getting military training in India..The Calguns brain trust should fully research to make sure this does not have any blow back.

bwiese
09-06-2009, 9:31 PM
I do not think we need to start doing ethno-religious-specific outreach.

Calguns welcomes all of good cheer & proper thinking processes.

Pictures of Calguns gettogethers show every race/creed in the book.

I do think links to 'nontraditional' LGBT community does have some special political power in CA, though for a number of reasons.

tiko
09-06-2009, 9:49 PM
I have about ten friends/coworkers who are Sikhs, they oppose to the Khalistans just like the Muslims oppose Al Qaida. The Sikhs are moderate, religious, good morals, good family values. They want to live in a united India, the Khalistans are just a group, they do not represent the Sikhs.
All my ten friends have never shoot a gun, I will get them to the shooting sport when I have chance.

cbn620
09-06-2009, 10:47 PM
Guy around here runs a gas station where I cash my check. Don't know if he's Sikh religion, but he's something of the south Asia or middle east variety, perhaps Indian or Pakistani. I have never asked him about that aspect of his life, though he has mentioned by proxy that he was not born in this country. His place got robbed about a year and a half ago, maybe less.

I remember telling him about a camping trip where I'd just come back from some rifle and shotgun shooting. He didn't believe me, he was about convinced it was 100% illegal until I explained to him about the second amendment. I think it goes without saying that many immigrants to this country don't quite understand we--and they-- can legally own and shoot guns over here.

Maybe we ought to start educating immigrants about rights in general, especially their RKBA. Some of these people come from crime infested parts of the world where they get s%$@ kicked for a living and fully understand why gun control does not work. They may be friends and allies who just don't know it yet.

nicki
09-07-2009, 12:09 AM
Citadel, overall the gun community has been supportive of the LBGT community regarding self defense.

It is the leadership of the LBGT community that has been the problem, although inroads are being made.

Certain stuff that happened behind the scenes needs to stay that way because doors have been opened and quiet alliances have been made.

I quickly introduced myself to Wayne LaPierre at the NRA convention and his comment to me was that he liked what the Pink Pistols was doing and to keep up the good work.

SAF has been supportive and I am going to SAF GRPC convention again, my 3rd strike:43:

Calguns is working with Pink Pistols, Deanna Sykes is the Sacramento Pink Pistol coordinator and when we get CCW here in California, how can the media attack the Calguns victory without attacking the Gay community.

The predominant political force in most gun organizations are conservatives, not libertarians, although there is a trend of conservatives starting to become enlightened and coming over to the dark side:D

I don't take things personally, and my Teflon skin so far is holding up.:p

I am in the process of trying to get distribution rights on a film I was part of last year, a French documentary. Seems the French had trouble getting a US distributor, the issue of course is details.

When I am successful in getting rights, the film, "This is Family" will be well received in the Gay Community because I have pre screened the film with a cross section of people and the overall response is that it was that it was a great film.

I thought my pro gun views would "Shock the French", but the director told me that actually a lot of people really liked me. During the film process he and his crew appreciated that I wasn't a pain in the *** like some of the people who were in the film.

I have a preliminary public screening set on Oct 11 at the Billy DeFrank center in San Jose. I already have support from the Staff of the Center and they know exactly who I am and what values I support.

When this film gets traction here in the US, I'm going to be the one associated with it, my hope is that when it takes off, I will be able to make a shift not only in the LBGT community, but the political middle to promote not just gun rights, but all rights.

Getting back to the original post though,

I brought up the issue with the Sikhs because of the Karpin issue. Doing a quick Wiki search, there is a culture of self defense.

I don't know Indian Politics, but what I do know is many people who are here in the US are here to start a new life.

Most people who emigrate to our country to get away from War, if they want to fight the Indian government, they probably would have stayed in India.

Many immigrants who come to this country are actually hungry to learn about America. They are the ones who I can sit down with and talk about American politics and history, because they want to learn.

Most Immigrants who come here do so to seek freedom, no one tells them that freedom and gun ownership are interlinked. All they see about guns is criminals using guns, so to them, gun control proposals that claim to restrict access to guns by bad guys makes sense.

No one is giving our side of the arguement, so naturally they give gun rights low or no priority.

Other issues that will soon be coming up in the state legislature will help us on gun issues.

The big issue for next year will be AB390, Marijuana legalization. Anyone who votes for this bill is admitting that Prohibition is a failed policy.

If we couldn't make prohibition work on Pot, how can we make it work on guns which don't require 3 to 6 months to grow.

Freedom, peace and prosperity and what most people want and if we promote this message, we will succeed.

Most people who immigrate here come from countries where the governments are corrupt. The idea of having the means to control the government by force is something many immigrants would probably think is a good idea.

We talk about tyranny, most of them lived under it. It is not a hard sell because what we are selling is not just gun rights, it is human rights.

Nicki

CSACANNONEER
09-07-2009, 6:55 AM
If we couldn't make prohibition work on Pot, how can we make it work on guns which don't require 3 to 6 months to grow.

Nicki

So, should I stop watering my NAA revolvers? I had hopes they would grow to be 500 S&W with the help of Miracle Grow.

Back to the topic. I'm sort of torn about targeting specific religious groups and not others. There are a few that I can think of which are already on our side but, may not be strongly represented on this forum. I'm thinking about Mormons and all of the different religions which lost people to the holocaust. It still amazes me that the children and grandchildren of holocaust survivors can be anti-gun. I've never met a tattooed survivor who was not 100% pro-gun and anti-registration! Anyway, as far as officially targeting any group, I'm not sure it's a good idea. But, instead, we should targeting every Californian and welcoming EVERYONE! If anyone has an in with a specific community, they should take it upon themselves to become a Calgun's ambassador and start inviting those in that community to join us. I do think that this is a great thread and I've got to thank Nicki for pointing out some of our seemingly untapped potential resources and nudging us to figure out how to introduce ourselves to them.

Can'thavenuthingood
09-07-2009, 8:37 AM
I'm thinking more of inclusion rather than targeting a single group. We need to target everyone to get into this tent. However we do need to tailor the message in terms some folks understand more readily. In a sense that may be targeting but we have to address it in some manner.
Through literature, mailout introductions or something. I have no idea how to go about waving down the ice cream truck and asking him if he is 2A compliant.

What sort of outreach is recommended for the Sikh?
Also maybe we ought to make some of our literature in a few languages for the adult immigrants?

Vick

SwissFluCase
09-07-2009, 10:50 AM
I would agree that we should stay away from going after specific religous groups. I have seen so much vitriol regarding middle east politics in the off topic forum that I would be nervous about creating dissention in our community. It doesn't mean individuals shouldn't do this on their own, though.

What would make sense would be making an outreach to immigrant groups in general, as cbn620 suggested. Educating people who support RKBA but don't realize that right exists seems like very low hanging fruit to me. Plus, we can wipe away the "right wing gun nut anti immigration" label the anti's try to paint us with for good.

Regards,


SwissFluCase

bwiese
09-07-2009, 12:06 PM
Certain stuff that happened behind the scenes needs to stay that way because doors have been opened and quiet alliances have been made.

I quickly introduced myself to Wayne LaPierre at the NRA convention and his comment to me was that he liked what the Pink Pistols was doing and to keep up the good work.

Yup, Wayne is the ultimate grassroots guy. Anyone legit that wants to intellgently promote gunrights without causing side issues for other matters, he's all for it.

Wayne understands what we're going thru in CA and big $$$$$ is being spent. (The recent lead ammo ban takedown was a perfect example. I'd not be surprised if all that work ran into the 6 figures - time, legal resarch, investigations, scientists, etc.)

nicki
09-07-2009, 12:55 PM
We should be a United People, but the reality is we have sub groups in America.

What I feel the overall message is we want a country where everyone's fundamental rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is recognized.

The core value of that our government exists by the consent of the governed means nothing if the governed can't revoke their consent, both peaceably and with force.

Many immigrants from across the world lived in countries where basic human rights were violated and they were stuck with evil governments that nothing could be done about.

While the original issue was reaching to the Sikhs, once we develop a outreach program to them, we could tweek it and do a outreach to other groups.

Long term, perhaps we could create a program to counter the UN program of global citizen disarmanent since I figure some immigrants keep contact with family and friends in their home countries.

We that without gun rights, human rights don't exist.

Nicki

californialawsucks
09-07-2009, 3:39 PM
Hello,
I am 18 now and was born into a Sikh and was once a fully practicing and baptized Sikh, but I am no longer very religious. However, I have always realized that the Sikh community could be a very powerful tool to overcome the "middle-aged white male" stigma and to promote the 2nd Amendment. My immediate family owns various firearms and many of my relatives do also. Gun ownership is ingrained into our culture and even in India my family which remains there has at least one firearm per household. One firearm which holds the most popularity is the double barrel shotgun referred to as the "dunali" which basically means "two tubes" lol. Most Sikhs are pro self-defense and along with this comes being pro-gun. As to further incorporate the Sikh community into the fight for more firearms rights, I don't have any ideas in particular.

Blue
09-07-2009, 3:49 PM
There is little done with ethnic minorities

And why should we? Skin color doesn't and shouldn't matter when it comes to gun ownership.

woodsman
09-07-2009, 4:54 PM
I like the comment about airports. Being singled out? HA!

Small dagger worn by Sikhs mistaken as a weapon
By Steven Harmon
Contra Costa Times
Posted: 09/07/2009 02:11:26 PM PDT
Updated: 09/07/2009 05:33:42 PM PDT


SACRAMENTO The kirpan, the small sword or dagger Sikhs carry in a shoulder strap, is an article of religious faith for practicing members, but has often been confused for a weapon by those unaware of its religious significance.

Police have stopped and arrested Sikhs for carrying kirpans, adding to the frustration that many Sikhs members of the world's fifth-largest organized religion have felt since Sept. 11, 2001, as targets of an American backlash for the turbans they wear.

"The main problem is that many Sikhs are approached in a disrespectful way they're assumed to be involved in crime," said Ravneet Kaur, a community organizer with the Fremont-based Sikh Coalition.

"People are arrested for carrying a concealed weapon, but if they wore it outside their clothing, they worry what would the reaction be. At the end of the day, it shouldn't matter because you have the right to practice your religious faith."

Faithful Sikhs carry a kirpan in a shoulder strap to remind them of their religious duty to "defend the weak and oppressed," the Sikh Coalition's Web site entry says. Religious freedom is the point that Sikhs are hoping will get across in training that law enforcement agencies would be required to offer to their officers under legislation, Assembly Bill 504. It is making its way to the desk of Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger after sailing through both legislative chambers.

"I'm hoping this will educate people that this is a religious practice and not a threat," said Assemblyman Warren Furutani, D-Long Beach, the measure's sponsor. Sikhs are mandated by their religion to keep five articles of faith on or as part of their person at all times. The kirpan is carried in a shoulder strap known as a gatra, as mandated by the Sikh Code of Conduct. "It helps sustain one's martial spirit and the determination to sacrifice oneself in order to defend truth, oppression and Sikh moral values," the entry says.

The kirpan is also an allusion to spiritual knowledge that cuts through ignorance and sin, according to the code of conduct.

Training law enforcement officers works, said J.P. Singh, an electrical engineer from El Sobrante. Singh, a consultant with the U.S. Department of Justice's Community Relations Service, has trained officers in Pleasanton, San Ramon, Dublin, Richmond and Brentwood.

"I know that 80 to 90 percent of police officers don't even know who Sikhs are," he said. "When trained, they will know who they're dealing with, and they'll know what the articles of faith are, and they'll probably leave them alone."

Sikhs, who number around 100,000 in the Bay Area and around 700,000 nationwide, have been fighting airport security checks they must go through in which they are directed into holding cells for inspection of their turbans.

"It's humiliating," Singh said. "I feel humiliated every time I go to the airport. You get singled out."

It is the same sense of humiliation when Sikhs are stopped for wearing kirpans."You're supposed to be wearing it at your side," Singh said. "You usually don't let others touch your articles of faith."

The training would be added to existing police diversity and cultural sensitivity training.

Reach Steven Harmon at 916-441-2101.





http://www.insidebayarea.com/trivalleyherald/localnews/ci_13286808?source=rss

dwa
09-07-2009, 4:58 PM
adopt a Sikh day?

wash
09-07-2009, 5:11 PM
I like their kebabs.

Meplat
09-07-2009, 6:03 PM
I don't have any ideas in particular.

How about just telling your friends about this forum and invite them to join in the conversation, Sikh or not. Truth will always thrive amongst a free and moral people.

We have a huge Sikh population in Fresno. I don't know any personally but the dealings I have had with them lead me to believe they are, in the main, a moral and peaceful people whos values are compatable with the traditional values of most Americans.

bridgeport
09-07-2009, 7:58 PM
Freedom, Reason, Liberty, self determination, responsibility, the right to defend oneself and ones property. These are my people. This is where I stand,
regardless.

Meplat
09-07-2009, 8:57 PM
Freedom, Reason, Liberty, self determination, responsibility, the right to defend oneself and ones property. These are my people. This is where I stand,
regardless.

Well said: +1

CSACANNONEER
09-08-2009, 2:49 PM
And why should we? Skin color doesn't and shouldn't matter when it comes to gun ownership.

Yet, skin color was at the very root of the first gun control laws in this country.

ITZJT
09-08-2009, 3:17 PM
I used to hang with a bunch of Sikhs and was surprised to learn when they reach a certain age ( I think in their teens) they go back to India for military training. This is the US-born kids who wouldn't otherwise be subject to compulsory service. I was told that they have to be ready to go back to India at any time to defend their fellow Sikhs.

Seems to me this would imply they would be pro 2A here as well.

Really? I am an India born Sikh and have never heard of such a thing :confused:

We have a large community of Sikhs here in Yuba City there is an annual Sikh Parade the first Sunday of November.... last year I think there were 80,000 people here for it :eek: http://ypdtv.com/sikhtemple/..... maybe set up a booth with some punjabi speaking interperters? many possibilities....there are alot of politically connected Sikhs that reside in California.

JBird33
09-08-2009, 5:53 PM
I'm pretty sure my neurologist is a Sikh, almost positive in fact. He and his family do a lot for the community here too, both in his practicing medical field and in the Sikh community. Been going to him for about six years now. Good fella.

dwa
09-08-2009, 7:14 PM
I'm pretty sure my neurologist is a Sikh, almost positive in fact. He and his family do a lot for the community here too, both in his practicing medical field and in the Sikh community. Been going to him for about six years now. Good fella.

i might be wrong here but would not the large turban and beard be an indicator?

Steyr_223
09-09-2009, 1:51 PM
i might be wrong here but would not the large turban and beard be an indicator?

Not all have those. I work with some Sikhs. Here it's 70% Clean shaven and no turban. 30% Traditional turban and beard..