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jdwfg4
09-06-2009, 4:11 AM
I just spent about the last 5 hours researching moving to California with my guns. I literally JUST bought 2 guns, a S&W 1911 and a Springfield XD-M 40 here in Washington. So, frustrating because I move to Cali this week, and of course the springfield is what could cause me trouble. Here is what I've found:

The attorney general site says that my gun is illegal based on the magazine and the fact that I'm considered an "importer."

The actual law states,"import for sale." Which is a bit different. With this it seems I would be fine.

How enforceable is this law? Would I just avoid gun ranges and hope that I wouldn't end up having my house searched? And even so, I suppose they have to prove them being imported. But is anyone actually having legal issues because of this?

I suppose my options are...risk it, have the magazines altered if that's possible, get a dealer license (which seems very difficult).

Anyone have an experience or sound advice with this?

Plisk
09-06-2009, 4:31 AM
With high capacity magazines (10+) I would just not bring them into the state at all. That is importing a high-cap magazine and that's mucho bad. You could permanently alter the magazines to hold no more than 10 rounds BEFORE you enter the state if you wish. Or you can just buy a bunch of 10 round magazines and sell off your high-caps BEFORE coming to CA.

The XD-Ms are not on the CA-approved list, so unless you're Law Enforcement, you're not going to be able to own it here.

No one here will reccomend to 'risk it', because thats telling you to break the law. We will always reccomend the legal route to things.

Quiet
09-06-2009, 4:39 AM
Hi and welcome to CA.

Within 60 days of becoming a resident of CA, you will need to register all the handguns you bring with you to CA.

You can legally bring any handgun with you, as long as it is not defined under CA laws as an assault weapon or SBR/SBS.

You register your handguns by mailing in a New Resident Handgun Ownership Report (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ab991frm.pdf) along with the applicable fees ($19 per handgun) to CA DOJ BOF.

You can not bring any large capacity magazines with you to CA.
You can dissassemble any large capacity magazines you currently own and either keep them as parts & never assemble them while in CA or assemble them into permanent 10 round magazines.


The two handguns you mentioned are 100% CA legal.
However, the Springfield Armory XDm-40 uses large capacity magazines.
So, you can...
1. leave the magazines in WA.
2. bring them into CA as parts and never reassemble them while in CA.
3. modify them into permanent 10 round magazines.

Quiet
09-06-2009, 4:40 AM
The XD-Ms are not on the CA-approved list, so unless you're Law Enforcement, you're not going to be able to own it here.

The approved list does not apply to people moving into CA to become residents.

The OP is a "personal handgun importer" [PC 12001(n)], therefore the approved list does not apply because he is not importing them into CA for sale [PC 12125(a)].

Penal Code 12001
(n) As used in this chapter, a "personal handgun importer" means an individual who meets all of the following criteria:
(1) He or she is not a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.
(2) He or she is not a licensed manufacturer of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(3) He or she is not a licensed importer of firearms pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto.
(4) He or she is the owner of a handgun.
(5) He or she acquired that handgun outside of California.
(6) He or she moves into this state on or after January 1, 1998, as a resident of this state.
(7) He or she intends to possess that handgun within this state on or after January 1, 1998.
(8) The handgun was not delivered to him or her by a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071 who delivered that firearm following the procedures set forth in Section 12071 and subdivision (c) of Section 12072.
(9) He or she, while a resident of this state, had not previously reported his or her ownership of that handgun to the Department of Justice in a manner prescribed by the department that included information concerning him or her and a description of the firearm.
(10) The handgun is not a firearm that is prohibited by subdivision (a) of Section 12020.
(11) The handgun is not an assault weapon, as defined in Section 12276 or 12276.1.
(12) The handgun is not a machinegun, as defined in Section 12200.
(13) The person is 18 years of age or older.

Penal Code 12125
(a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.

elSquid
09-06-2009, 4:43 AM
http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Moving_to_California_with_firearms

1) It's completely legal to own non-rostered handguns.

2) Do not import magazines with a capacity greater than 10 rounds. Leave them out-of-state, permanently convert them to 10 rounders, or bring them in as a rebuild kit. If you decide to bring them in kit form, do not reassemble them back into hi-caps while in California.

-- Michael

forgiven
09-06-2009, 5:09 AM
Welcome to the socialist state of Kalifornia. Sorry that your leaving Washington. I've been there many times and found that it's a wonderful state. Most importantly welcome to cal-guns.:)

Pelican
09-06-2009, 7:21 AM
Hi and welcome to CA.

Within 60 days of becoming a resident of CA, you will need to register all the handguns you bring with you to CA.

You can legally bring any handgun with you, as long as it is not defined under CA laws as an assault weapon or SBR/SBS.

You register your handguns by mailing in a New Resident Handgun Ownership Report (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ab991frm.pdf) along with the applicable fees ($19 per handgun) to CA DOJ BOF.

You can not bring any large capacity magazines with you to CA.
You can dissassemble any large capacity magazines you currently own and either keep them as parts & never assemble them while in CA or assemble them into permanent 10 round magazines.


The two handguns you mentioned are 100% CA legal.
However, the Springfield Armory XDm-40 uses large capacity magazines.
So, you can...
1. leave the magazines in WA.
2. bring them into CA as parts and never reassemble them while in CA.
3. modify them into permanent 10 round magazines.

If I remember correctly, the penalty for failing to register is a misdemeanor.
There is a statute of limitations of one year, starting from date of import.
After the one year, no penalty for not registering. If you are caught illegally carrying concealed a non-registered gun, it's a felony, otherwise probably a misdemeanor.

If possible, you might want to keep your home state domicile status.
The CA DMV page says you only need to get a CA driver's license
if you do something to make yourself a CA resident, like voter registration,
resident tax benefits, or other benefits only available to residents.
Maybe then you could continue to buy non-roster firearms?

M. Sage
09-06-2009, 7:37 AM
Quiet's posts are right on the mark. You can bring your handguns with you, and legally, just remember to register them. Any magazines over 10 rounds capacity are a no-no if they're assembled, though. The roster doesn't apply to you until you're in the state, so feel free to buy some more before you move here. If you get sick of them or decide you don't want them or need to sell them for money because the move was more expensive than you thought it would be, off-roster handguns often sell at a bit of a premium.

If I remember correctly, the penalty for failing to register is a misdemeanor.

Because otherwise it runs afoul of the 5A. "You're required to register this... and if you register it you're admitting that you broke the law." Doesn't work so well, does it?

Pelican
09-06-2009, 8:53 AM
Quiet's posts are right on the mark. You can bring your handguns with you, and legally, just remember to register them. Any magazines over 10 rounds capacity are a no-no if they're assembled, though. The roster doesn't apply to you until you're in the state, so feel free to buy some more before you move here. If you get sick of them or decide you don't want them or need to sell them for money because the move was more expensive than you thought it would be, off-roster handguns often sell at a bit of a premium.



Because otherwise it runs afoul of the 5A. "You're required to register this... and if you register it you're admitting that you broke the law." Doesn't work so well, does it?

I think you can register after the initial 60 days without penalty, as long as
you did not get caught before that:

http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/12072.html
12072 partial:

"...
(4) (A) It is the intent of the Legislature that a violation of
paragraph (2) or (3) shall not constitute a "continuing offense" and
the statute of limitations for commencing a prosecution for a
violation of paragraph (2) or (3) commences on the date that the
applicable grace period specified in paragraph (2) or (3) expires.
(B) Paragraphs (2) and (3) shall not apply to a person who reports
his or her ownership of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person after the applicable grace period
specified in paragraph (2) or (3) expires if evidence of that
violation arises only as the result of the person submitting the
report described in paragraph (2) or (3).
(g) (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), (3), or (5), a
violation of this section is a misdemeanor.
..."

Here's statute of limitations info:
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=799-805

jdwfg4
09-06-2009, 11:54 AM
That is a horrible law. I'm surprised that there's no permit or anything that will allow you to have a 10+ round magazine.

I suppose, I could take the magazines apart and have someone in CA modify them. I am pretty sure there are no XD-M 40 10 round magazines available. Anyone know otherwise?

I may try to "return"/sell back the gun.

I am going to try to consult a lawyer or two and see if they know anything I can do as well.

This is SOOO disappointing...

Librarian
09-06-2009, 12:02 PM
That is a horrible law. I'm surprised that there's no permit or anything that will allow you to have a 10+ round magazine.


Oh, there is - status as a sworn Law Enforcement Officer.

Otherwise, you had to have possessed them in California before Jan 1, 2000. Those one may still own, possess and use in one's handguns, no problem.


ETA I am pretty sure there are no XD-M 40 10 round magazines available. Anyone know otherwise?Looks like Springfield DOES does NOT have 10-rounders (http://www.springfield-armory.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46_55_59&products_id=514) for the XD(m) 40 - this link is for the XD only. H/T to Quiet.

bwiese
09-06-2009, 1:06 PM
If I remember correctly, the penalty for failing to register is a misdemeanor. There is a statute of limitations of one year, starting from date of import. After the one year, no penalty for not registering.

More importantly, late registration filing does not self-incriminate.


If you are caught illegally carrying concealed a non-registered gun, it's a felony, otherwise probably a misdemeanor.

Correct.

cr250chevy
09-06-2009, 1:19 PM
Hi and welcome to CA.

Within 60 days of becoming a resident of CA, you will need to register all the handguns you bring with you to CA.

You can legally bring any handgun with you, as long as it is not defined under CA laws as an assault weapon or SBR/SBS.

You register your handguns by mailing in a New Resident Handgun Ownership Report (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ab991frm.pdf) along with the applicable fees ($19 per handgun) to CA DOJ BOF.

You can not bring any large capacity magazines with you to CA.
You can dissassemble any large capacity magazines you currently own and either keep them as parts & never assemble them while in CA or assemble them into permanent 10 round magazines.


The two handguns you mentioned are 100% CA legal.
However, the Springfield Armory XDm-40 uses large capacity magazines.
So, you can...
1. leave the magazines in WA.
2. bring them into CA as parts and never reassemble them while in CA.
3. modify them into permanent 10 round magazines.

Well put quiet! follow all of this advice and your are 100% ok!
-I would take apart those high cap mags and bring them here and buy a few 10 rounders!- think about the future: "breaking news-federal high cap magazine ban" :eek:

Sinestr
09-06-2009, 1:56 PM
That is a horrible law. I'm surprised that there's no permit or anything that will allow you to have a 10+ round magazine.

I suppose, I could take the magazines apart and have someone in CA modify them. I am pretty sure there are no XD-M 40 10 round magazines available. Anyone know otherwise?

I may try to "return"/sell back the gun.

I am going to try to consult a lawyer or two and see if they know anything I can do as well.

This is SOOO disappointing...

You will find most everything in this state other then the scenery, and climate is so very DISAPPONTING:mad: If you plan on hunting and shooting in this state be prepared for a truck load of BULL ****! If you have any means available to stay in Washington, you should. :eek: But if not, welcome to the battle.

leitung
09-06-2009, 2:51 PM
Stay in WA.. Problem Solved...

At any rate, you can bring the XDm in with you and register it, as well as the rest of your off list guns, no High Cap mags, AWs or tracer rounds.

DiscoBayJoe
09-06-2009, 2:56 PM
Disassemble the Magazines into a parts kits.

Bring the XD-M with you into CA and you can sell it here at a premium if you decide not to keep it.

zangetsu
09-06-2009, 3:14 PM
this is why i dont' want to move to cali

jdwfg4
09-06-2009, 3:29 PM
Librarian, nice find. I'll probably just buy those 10 rounders and take apart the 16's. Or I'll have one disassembled and one modified for 10.

One good thing is, I also do business in Nevada and may have a temp residence there where I could use the 16's. I'm not completely sure, but at a glance, it looks like they are much less strict there, and there is not much gun legislation.

Thanks for all the insight. I feel like I need to go buy some more guns before I move this week, haha. I bought these two the same day and background check was done in less than 24 hours, much different from how its about to be...

phamkl
09-06-2009, 3:30 PM
Hey, at least it's not raining 8 days a week here.

I would actually load up on XD-M magazines while out of state, convert a bunch into 10 rounders and then leave the rest disassembled. That way you can keep shooting the XD-M (which I guess is supposed to be a considerable upgrade from the regular XD and thus worth keeping around) and then shoot the normal rounders out of state for when you move out or travel or drive out to Nevada for fun.

Librarian
09-06-2009, 3:40 PM
Librarian, nice find. I'll probably just buy those 10 rounders and take apart the 16's. Or I'll have one disassembled and one modified for 10.

One good thing is, I also do business in Nevada and may have a temp residence there where I could use the 16's. I'm not completely sure, but at a glance, it looks like they are much less strict there, and there is not much gun legislation.

Thanks for all the insight. I feel like I need to go buy some more guns before I move this week, haha. I bought these two the same day and background check was done in less than 24 hours, much different from how its about to be...

Unfortunately, the find is only for the full-sized XDs; Quiet caught that over at THR :o. Won't fit the XD(m), so conversion from large-capacity to 10-round seems to be the answer.

Alan Block
09-06-2009, 6:08 PM
You can have a >10 round magazine as long as you had it in california before 2000.

Quiet
09-06-2009, 7:38 PM
You can have a >10 round magazine as long as you had it in california before 2000.

Problem with the XDm is that the large capacity magazine for it was created in 2007 and imported into the USA in 2008. So, how could someone have own one in CA before 2000?

RideIcon
09-07-2009, 5:45 AM
dont do it! stay away!!!
but if you must, bring me a ruger LCP


Problem with the XDm is that the large capacity magazine for it was created in 2007 and imported into the USA in 2008. So, how could someone have own one in CA before 2000?

you don't necessarily need to have owned it...
someone else could have committed the crime and you can legally find it in a ditch or under a stump at a shooting range..

why does everyone think you must have had it before 2000? its the scary guy selling them out of his van that committed the crime, not you for buying them!

Librarian
09-07-2009, 10:54 AM
dont do it! stay away!!!
but if you must, bring me a ruger LCP




you don't necessarily need to have owned it...
someone else could have committed the crime and you can legally find it in a ditch or under a stump at a shooting range..

why does everyone think you must have had it before 2000? its the scary guy selling them out of his van that committed the crime, not you for buying them!

Do you have children? I do.

If I had a child come to me with such a fanciful story, I would not be inclined to believe it.

In the world of Penal Code and law enforcement, disbelief is not proof, but it certainly is an attitude changer.

Such stories do not pass the laugh test.

RideIcon
09-07-2009, 12:13 PM
well you want legal, say you bought it from the armored car company...

ST5MF
09-07-2009, 12:53 PM
That is a horrible law. I'm surprised that there's no permit or anything that will allow you to have a 10+ round magazine.

I suppose, I could take the magazines apart and have someone in CA modify them. I am pretty sure there are no XD-M 40 10 round magazines available. Anyone know otherwise?

I may try to "return"/sell back the gun.

I am going to try to consult a lawyer or two and see if they know anything I can do as well.

This is SOOO disappointing...

If you are coming to CA, get used to it. "The disappointment NEVER ENDS" is the unofficial state motto...

hayasa
09-07-2009, 9:58 PM
Been lurking for a while - moving to Cali in October and bringing in guns. These forums have been extremely helpful! I have a question about one gun I have, a DSA SA-58, which is an American-made version of an FN-FAL. I can't figure out if it is legal or not, and I only have mags that hold over 10 rounds (20 minimum). Any help?

ke6guj
09-07-2009, 10:08 PM
hayasa, welcome to Calguns.

I'd suggest looking over the various flowcharts that CG'ers have put together to help with understanding the laws. Links to them are at the top of every forum page. I'd start with the rifle AW chart, http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf .

Regarding your DSA, as long as it is not a listed brand/model in the AW laws, and is an otherwise legal configuration, it is legal in CA. In your case, you could either go with a 10-round fixed-mag build and be legal. Or, go with a "featureless" build and modify/remove the pistol grip and any other "evil" features and keep the original magazine releaese.

In any case, you couldn't bring in any 11+ round magazines unless you had possessed them in CA sometime before 2000. YOu can disassemble the mags into parts kits and bring them with you, but can't ever assemble them while in CA.

jdwfg4
09-08-2009, 1:27 AM
I'm going to talk to a lawyer tomorrow, and see if I can find anything out there, I'll let you guys know. Otherwise I'll probably have one mag modified for cali and the other taken apart but for use in other states. I was considering getting rid of the gun and getting something else, but I gave in and shot it today :) ....and I'm for sure going to at least keep it.

cousinkix1953
09-08-2009, 7:11 AM
I would buy several XDm magazines. Modify some for 10 rounds and use then in the PRK. Reassemble the others at your place in Nevada. They should be fine in a pistol case until you need them...

Glock22Fan
09-08-2009, 8:06 AM
I'm going to talk to a lawyer tomorrow, and see if I can find anything out there, I'll let you guys know. Otherwise I'll probably have one mag modified for cali and the other taken apart but for use in other states. I was considering getting rid of the gun and getting something else, but I gave in and shot it today :) ....and I'm for sure going to at least keep it.

If you are picking a lawyer at random (especially out of state), the chances of getting one who knows as much Californian gun law as the advice given in this thread is, frankly, remote. However, there are lawyers associated with this forum who do know what they are talking about. Be careful.

Librarian
09-08-2009, 10:55 AM
You should offer the lawyer you see the source material:

SB 23 (http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/99-00/bill/sen/sb_0001-0050/sb_23_bill_19990719_chaptered.html)

and

PC 12020 (http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/4/2/1/2/s12020) 12020 (a)(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes
to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or
offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-
capacity magazine.

12020 (c)(25) As used in this section, "large-capacity
magazine" means any ammunition feeding device with the capacity
to accept more than 10 rounds, but shall not be construed to
include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so
that itcannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action
firearm.

hayasa
09-08-2009, 1:20 PM
hayasa, welcome to Calguns.

I'd suggest looking over the various flowcharts that CG'ers have put together to help with understanding the laws. Links to them are at the top of every forum page. I'd start with the rifle AW chart, http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf .

Regarding your DSA, as long as it is not a listed brand/model in the AW laws, and is an otherwise legal configuration, it is legal in CA. In your case, you could either go with a 10-round fixed-mag build and be legal. Or, go with a "featureless" build and modify/remove the pistol grip and any other "evil" features and keep the original magazine releaese.

In any case, you couldn't bring in any 11+ round magazines unless you had possessed them in CA sometime before 2000. YOu can disassemble the mags into parts kits and bring them with you, but can't ever assemble them while in CA.

Thanks for the link. I went over to FindLaw to look all those up. I think I am more confused than ever. Guess I'll have to sell the beloved SA-58... Is there any similar flowchart for handguns?

ke6guj
09-08-2009, 1:34 PM
Thanks for the link. I went over to FindLaw to look all those up. I think I am more confused than ever. Guess I'll have to sell the beloved SA-58...
no need to sell the SA-58. Did you run it through the flowchart? If so, you should have been able to answer NO to all the questions until you got to the "detachable magazine" question. At that point, you would have said YES, which would then run you through the "evil features" question. A second YES answer would make in an illegal AW. So, if you did have the detachable magazine, you would need to set up the SA-58 up in a featureless config by removing any flash hider, and modifying the pistol grip.

Or, if you wanted to keep the evil features, set up the SA-58 with a fixed-mag-release, and you bypass the evil features question. If you have a fixed-mag, then you have to comply with the 10-rounds or less magazine question. DSarms sells their CA-legal rifles in this configuration. http://www.dsarms.com/SA58-California-Models/products/39/

So, you just have to decide what is more important to you, evil features with a fixed mag, or featureless with detachable mags.

In any case, you can't bring in and use your large-capacity magazines.



Is there any similar flowchart for handguns?yes there is. http://www.calguns.net/caawid/hgflowchart.pdf and one for shotguns as well, http://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf

curtisfong
09-08-2009, 2:09 PM
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/hgflowchart.pdf and one for shotguns as well, http://www.calguns.net/caawid/sgflowchart.pdf

Stupid question, is there one for rim-fire?

ke6guj
09-08-2009, 2:18 PM
No, I haven't made one for rimfire rifles. Rimfire handguns are covered under the handgun legaliity chart.

Rekrab
09-08-2009, 2:35 PM
Question, if someone is an out of state student, temporarily living in California but owning property, is he legally compelled to register any California legal firearms he owns?

Not me by the way, I'm a full citizen unfortunately >.<

curtisfong
09-08-2009, 3:20 PM
No, I haven't made one for rimfire rifles.

Can you (or anybody else) summarize which parts of the rifle flowchart ONLY pertain to centerfire? I still cant' make head or tail of it all :mad:

ke6guj
09-08-2009, 3:26 PM
rimfire rifle rules are pretty simple. Basically, as long as it is over 26" long in its shortest fireable configuration, with at least a 16" barrel, its legal.

All the parts of the rifle AW flowchart pertain to centerfire rifles.

curtisfong
09-08-2009, 4:22 PM
So the only CA specific addon would be the regular "manufacture/transfer" >10-rd mag etc?

Thanks!

ke6guj
09-08-2009, 4:27 PM
If I understand you correctly, yes, you basically only have to make sure you don't violate the large-capacity magazine laws pertaining to manufacture, sale, importation, etc.

You can use a large-capacity magaine in any rimfire rifle.

Librarian
09-08-2009, 5:17 PM
Question, if someone is an out of state student, temporarily living in California but owning property, is he legally compelled to register any California legal firearms he owns?

Not me by the way, I'm a full citizen unfortunately >.<

Unless moving here permanently, there is no requirement to register any gun. However, any handgun will be registered if it passes through DROS, and any legal 'assault weapon' is already registered, and no more can be registered unless the rifle is a new-acquisition by LEO.