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swift
09-05-2009, 12:10 PM
Seeing that some people have been able to get silencers, etc. by storing the NFA item out of state, I wonder how the same could be done with an AR15 sbr. For example, if the SBR needs to be engraved on the barrel (as shown here" http://www.orion-arms.com/images/stories/SBR/misc/SSR-40-SBR.jpg), could any title 1 rifle lower be used with a registered SBR upper?

Is it the upper that is the SBR or the complete rifle? Can the engraved upper legally be used on a pistol lower or a registered AOW?

I'm trying to understand if I would need to store the complete rifle out of state or just half of it.

Flopper
09-05-2009, 12:39 PM
The part of the rifle which is considered "the firearm," which is serialized, is the part which must be engraved, and the part which is considered the SBR.

This varies by rifle. For instance, an AR must have the NFA engraving on the lower, whereas a G3 (and AFAIK all HK rifles) must have the engraving on the upper.

ke6guj
09-05-2009, 1:27 PM
IIRC, the reason a CA-resident was able to purchase the suppressor out-of-state was because a suppressor is not a considered a firearm for certain parts of federal law. Because of that, he could legally purchase it on a Form 4 and keep it out of state.

As for an SBR, the serialized receiver is the registered item, not the barrel. Because an SBR is a firearm, A CA-resident can't purchase one out of state and then keep it there. I'm not sure if one could take an pre-owned AR-lower out of state and do a Form 1 SBR build on it, whether the Form 1 would be approved. Now, you could throw in out-of-state NFA trust questions into the mix, but that is above my knowledge. At that point, I'd suggest asking on the NFA forums for info and talk to a lawyer as well.


edit: oh, and to comment on the engraving question, the maker's name and location may be engraved on the receiver or barrel. The only thing that must be engraved on the receiver is the serial number, and if you may reuse the original manufacturer's serial number, don't need to engrave a new serial number.

swift
09-05-2009, 2:17 PM
I was thinking about using a lower I already own out of state and storing it there. Ideally the pistol upper would remain in CA and I'd bring it (and the pistol lower) with me after (if) the form 1 was approved.

If this were to work out, would it be legal to bring the pistol upper back into CA with the pistol lower?

ke6guj
09-05-2009, 2:41 PM
The pistol upper would not be "married" to the lower, so you could bring it back with you, as long as you had the pistol lower (to prevent constructiive possession issues).

Assuming you could get the Form 1 approved, I'd suggest leaving the pistol upper and lower here in CA untill it was approved. Then, take a trip with the upper when you actually "make" the SBR. Then, after it is actual SBR, you can bring the pistol upper back with you if you want. Remember that you will need to engrave either barrel or lower, I'd suggest engraving the lower, before you actually make the SBR. You can wait until after the Form 1 is approved, then take the lower to an engraver and have it engraved while you wait. Or, if you are sure the Form 1 would be approved, you could send it to Orion Arms and have them engrave it before you sent off the Form 1. I don't think having them engrave it after the Form 1 is approved is recommended, but you could ask them if it is an issue or not.

swift
09-05-2009, 11:48 PM
Wouldn't the lower need to be outside of CA before the form 1 was received? I'm wondering if an approved form 1 with the lower in CA would be a problem?

6172crew
09-06-2009, 7:32 AM
I have a SBR (form 1) out of state. In my case its a Ps90, I was living in NV at the time and have a NV DL.

There are a few 24/7 locker/storage places in the Reno area and that is a good place to keep the NFA stuff. The ATF will want to know where you are keeping them and unless your going the trust route you will have to have a LE signoff, which is quick and easy in Carson City.

As far as AR15 SBRs you would engrave the frame/receiver and that would be the controlled item. I have seen a few of them done under the pistol grip but I think the law says your name should be this size and visible.
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/8648/img0818t.jpg
Here is the engraving on the FN.

ke6guj
09-06-2009, 11:04 AM
Wouldn't the lower need to be outside of CA before the form 1 was received? I'm wondering if an approved form 1 with the lower in CA would be a problem?

Starting to get into grey areas there. There are two trains of thought on when a lower becomes an SBR, one is as soon as the Form 1 is approved, it must be treated as if it were an SBR (which would make it possessed illegally in CA, and possibly transported in violation of the law when it goes back out of state), and the other thought is that it isn't an SBR until you actually make it an SBR. Otherwise, how could you cancel an approved Form 1 and get a refund on a fiream that was never made into an SBR?

To make it easy, I'd suggest that the trust store it out of state while the Form 1 pending. For more info, I'd have to point you to the NFA forums where people deal with this more often. AR15.com, subguns.com, m4carbine.net, and others have robust NFA forums.

glock_holiday
09-08-2009, 4:11 AM
Starting to get into grey areas there. There are two trains of thought on when a lower becomes an SBR, one is as soon as the Form 1 is approved, it must be treated as if it were an SBR (which would make it possessed illegally in CA, and possibly transported in violation of the law when it goes back out of state), and the other thought is that it isn't an SBR until you actually make it an SBR. Otherwise, how could you cancel an approved Form 1 and get a refund on a fiream that was never made into an SBR?



Speaking as a class 2 SOT, I can tell you that once the form 1 is approved and the receiver is added to the NFA registry it is now an NFA weapon. Regardless of whether you ever actually build it into a SBR configuration. Whether it is stripped or assembled even with a 16"+ barrel on it, it will always be an NFA weapon until you ask to have it removed from the registry. Why you would do that I'm not sure but it is possible.

As to the refund, if they cancel your application for what ever reason, ie not legal in your state, errors on your application etc. you will get refunded your $200. If you ask them to cancel the item after approval and remove it from the registry you will not get any refund.

ke6guj
09-08-2009, 10:12 AM
IIRC, one could request a cancellation of an approved Form 1, and get a refund, if the firearm was never made. I seem to recall that they would give you a year to do so.


Cancellation of Approved Application. An approved application may be
cancelled only if the firearms had not been made or modified. The maker must
return the approved application with a written request for cancellation, citing the
need and that the making of the firearm did not take place. The NFA Branch will
arrange for a refund of any tax paid.