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JasonDavis
09-05-2009, 10:44 AM
At the request of CalGuns Foundation, Inc., I was asked to investigate the City of Los Angeles' and the LAPD’s policies and practices on the issuance of licenses to carry concealed handguns. This attached open letter serves as a summary of the City of Los Angeles' and LAPD’s policies and guidelines on issuance of licenses to carry concealed handguns. A second open letter addressing their practices will follow after the investigation is complete.

Quick summary . . . Los Angeles CCWs are very possible as they pretty much have a shall issue policy for certain categories of persons. Read the letter!

wildhawker
09-05-2009, 10:48 AM
Thanks Jason and CGF!

DVLDOC
09-05-2009, 10:49 AM
Thanks for the info, Jason! I'll be keeping your contact info...

hoffmang
09-05-2009, 10:51 AM
And for those not logged in:
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/ccw/Open-Letter-LA-CCW-(Assenza)-2009-09-05.pdf

-Gene

obeygiant
09-05-2009, 10:58 AM
Thank you! Great work.

F-2_Challenger
09-05-2009, 11:09 AM
Wow. Great Job.

cineski
09-05-2009, 11:13 AM
Just curious how much "significant amounts of valuable property" consists of?

sfwdiy
09-05-2009, 11:18 AM
Just curious how much "significant amounts of valuable property" consists of?

I was wondering about this as well.

Assuming one actually meets the criteria listed within this document, approximately how much would the total cost be including legal fees and everything else to actually obtain a CCW from LAPD?

--B

JasonDavis
09-05-2009, 11:26 AM
I was wondering about this as well.

Assuming one actually meets the criteria listed within this document, approximately how much would the total cost be including legal fees and everything else to actually obtain a CCW from LAPD?

--B

The costs will vary because of the fact that your training costs vary and legal fees also vary based on the law firms handling the matter, etc.

As for "significant amounts," that will be more clear in the follow up letter.

hoffmang
09-05-2009, 11:29 AM
The costs will vary because of the fact that your training costs vary and legal fees also vary based on the law firms handling the matter, etc.

As for "significant amounts," that will be more clear in the follow up letter.

I'd suggest folks in LA contact Jason as we'd like to test out LA's compliance with the court order. Don't forget who LA City Attorney is...

-Gene

Gator Monroe
09-05-2009, 11:40 AM
Have they issued more than 100 ccw's in the last 30 years ?

cineski
09-05-2009, 11:54 AM
Of course a CCW denial on your record doesn't look too good.

I'd suggest folks in LA contact Jason as we'd like to test out LA's compliance with the court order. Don't forget who LA City Attorney is...

-Gene

JasonDavis
09-05-2009, 11:55 AM
Of course a CCW denial on your record doesn't look too good.

Oh, ye of little faith . . .

nick
09-05-2009, 12:07 PM
The only problem is, one has to live in L.A. Not sure it's worth it :(

hoffmang
09-05-2009, 12:10 PM
Of course a CCW denial on your record doesn't look too good.

Actually it doesn't matter. What you don't want is a denial for cause. A denial for not meeting "Good Cause" has no actual practical effect anywhere.

-Gene

ke6guj
09-05-2009, 12:12 PM
IIRC, Billy Jack has been asking, even begging, for CCW applicants who fall under those "shall issue" catagories, specifically the security group.

Gator Monroe
09-05-2009, 12:16 PM
Have they issued more than 100 ccw's in the last 30 years ?

Does this question have no relationship with OP and do none of you want to know the history of this issue or (Am I on ignore again ):(

Quemtimebo
09-05-2009, 12:20 PM
I'm smack-dab in the middle of LA and I'd love to help, but I'm not sure I've got "good cause." Other than that my friend was shot by gangstas a few blocks from here. Somehow I don't think that'll work...

Gator Monroe
09-05-2009, 12:23 PM
Have they issued more than 100 ccw's in the last 30 years ?

I lived in LA for 40 years ,and think the # of CCW's issued in that timeframe are shockingly low.

JagerTroop
09-05-2009, 12:53 PM
In re: Obtaining A CCW In The City of Los Angeles
...
e) that the applicant suffers under a disability or physical handicap; including age or
obesity, which hinders the applicant’s ability to retreat from an attacker.

Holy Crap! I never thought there would be an advantage to being overweight. Looks like it's CCWs for all fat guys :D

I may have to move to LA

CnCFunFactory
09-05-2009, 1:23 PM
Holy Crap! I never thought there would be an advantage to being overweight. Looks like it's CCWs for all fat guys :D

I may have to move to LA

I need to get over to Fatburger and get a king deal. Here I thought it was a good idea to diet and lose those extra pounds.... Silly me.

hoffmang
09-05-2009, 2:27 PM
Does this question have no relationship with OP and do none of you want to know the history of this issue or (Am I on ignore again ):(

When this settlement was reached 30 people received licenses to carry in 1989. The point of this thread is that a surprising number of folks in LA can get a CCW. I'd suggest applying and following the instructions laid out in Jason's letter and the settlement agreement.

-Gene

ojisan
09-05-2009, 4:30 PM
Jason, thank you for your efforts and I look forward to the follow up.
Memories brought back to life!
:)

Yes, being an old fart, I remember all this.
We all waited breathlessly for the shall-issue victory, but it never happened.
Yes, there was a settlement / victory, but reality is that nothing really changed except the plaintiffs and a few others got their CCWs.
The hype was they were doing this for all of us, and they would follow through for CCW for everyone.

I remember being glued to my TV, watching the news as the plaintiffs walked down the stairs in front of the courthouse, the media outside and gun owners everywhere awaiting their victory statement and what the results meant.
The plaintiffs walked down the side of the stairs away from the media, got in their cars, and drove away without a word.

The plaintiffs quickly faded away, and the media dropped the whole story.
We never really heard anything more from the victorious plaintiffs, perhaps as part of the settlement agreement, perhaps because they got theirs and didn't really care about anyone else.

While there may be "new policy", as Gator asked, how many permits have really been issued to the average citizen since this "new" policy was implemented over 25 years ago?

I'm waiting for SCOTUS.

(Thank you to all the legal guys, without you there is no hope).

curtisfong
09-05-2009, 5:07 PM
The hype was they were doing this for all of us, and they would follow through for CCW for everyone.


Well now, that sounds familiar. I'm thankful that CGF is willing to do what many others claim to, but never accomplish... go the extra mile and get real shall-issue, and not just CCW for a few dozen people.

jello2594
09-05-2009, 5:12 PM
I've got my application sitting with LAPD now, with my good cause under one of the ones outlined in the letter.

Gray Peterson
09-05-2009, 5:29 PM
Ok, so who's on this advisory panel? Who dropped the ball here?

Glock22Fan
09-05-2009, 6:53 PM
As said above, Billy Jack pointed all this out some time ago, in several of his blogs and (through me) in several threads. Whereas I appreciate Jason's efforts, I'm not sure that he has added anything world shattering to our knowledge.

If you are a resident of the City of Los Angeles and have by definition Good Cause and want to apply to LAPD or have applied and been denied within the past two years we would like to speak with you. Their is a Judicial Order in place that mandates 'Shall Issue' for persons in certain categories. LAPD and Chief Bratton ignore the policy of course. They routinely deny all applicants except for prosecutors and persons doing business with the city such as armorers who manufacture SWAT weapons.

It is way past time to make Chief Bratton follow the law. We are seeking qualified applicants to become Plaintiffs against the city. Remember, their is a Judicial Order in place that Chief Bratton is violating. A Motion to Compel and Motion re Contempt will get his attention. In addition he can be held personally liable for willfully disobeying the Order. Can you imagine Chief Bratton being held in Contempt of court? Actually many residents of Los Angeles already hold him in contempt but that is a different matter.

Want to a part of history? The following individuals are defined in the court mandated LAPD Policy.

1) Persons that can establish an immediate or continuing threat to themselves or their family

2) Persons employed in the field of security

3) Persons with Protective Order (Restraining Order)

4) Persons who transport in public, significant amounts of valuable property which is impractical to entrust to the protection of armored car services

5) Persons who can establish they are subject to a particular or unusual danger of physical attack and no reasonable means are available to abate that threat

The LAPD Policy states that: 'Good Cause shall be deemed to exist, and a license will be issued in the absence of strong countervailing factors...'

That's right folks, LAPD has a Shall Issue policy for certain individuals. If you are in one of those categories and comply with all requirements under 12050 PC you will get a CCW. If not from the kind, law abiding Chief, then by a Judge.

If I have your attention, use the e-mail form to contact us or cut to the chase and go to clueseau@dslextreme.com

This is an addendum to my post of March 12, 2009. Seems many on the firearm sites were unable to understand the legal situation the LAPD and Chief Bratton find themselves in. Sending in hearing impaired or the blind would not be a good idea. When I saw some of the posts I suspected someone had accessed and smoked sacred weed or their foil hat was simply too tight.

There is a Judicial Order in place, Chief Bratton is in violation of same. It is a real simple matter to show this to a state or federal judge. When a person or persons come forward who falls into one of the above listed categories we shall take America's most media savvy Chief to court.

Added March 26, 2009. The Los Angeles City Council is set to place on the ballot a change to the City Charter that would allow Chief Bratton and his successors to serve more than 2 five year terms as Chief. This is understandable considering the stellar job the former Transit cop has done.

Now I know what some of you are thinking, I have heard it before. The police will not like me if I sue them. Hello!, they do not like you now if they are willing to violate your rights and place you or your family in jeopardy. Want a friend? Buy a dog!

Gray Peterson
09-05-2009, 7:12 PM
As said above, Billy Jack pointed all this out some time ago, in his blog and (through me) in several threads. Whereas I appreciate Jason's efforts, I'm not sure that he has added anything world shattering to our knowledge.

The issue here, however, is that Jason was willing to do the research himself and post it in .pdf format that's easily available online for everyone to read. I don't think Billy Jack had at any pointed posted the Assenza settlement case or discussed the excerpts in this sort of detail.

Yes, he posted the good cause reasons, but there were things that were left out which were not posted, such as the fact that they are supposed to issue within 50 or 60 days, or the fact that they must accept the facts as given under a statement of penalty under perjury.

The second stage of this is to get LAPD in compliance with the settlement agreement, or at least determine their particular compliance with the order. I'm sure Billy Jack has done his own research, but he hasn't been as willing, insofar as what I've seen, to post it in this kind of detail. He has his reasons, I'm sure, but I disagree with the lack of disclosure aspect of the way he runs things. It's better to keep things out in the open, especially since LAPD already has a settlement agreement.

HowardW56
09-05-2009, 7:13 PM
Too bad Torrance isn't covered by a judgement like that.....

leitung
09-05-2009, 7:18 PM
Well at least LA thinks that security is good cause unlike Yolo and Sacramento counties.. Friggin idiots...

Billy Jack
09-05-2009, 8:17 PM
Billy Jack and Team members have always been willing to discuss the LAPD Stipulated Settlement Agreement with any concerned resident of Los Angeles. Most who post and who reside within the city limit will never bother to apply out of irrational fear of denial and its ramifications.

If you fall into one of the enumerated categories by all means get up from that computer screen and apply. I consider all of my illegal denials a badge of honor. LAPD, LASO, SAPD, OCSO. I have to devote an entire page to the denials each time I go for my renewal.

Jason is a capable, qualified Attorney who will assist qualified motivated applicants to LAPD.

If you have any questions about what Team Billy Jack does you can contact us at abillyjack.yahoo.com and someone will call you back. Thats right, a real person will call you back. We assist many applicants monthly and without charge. We also sue bad departments for which we charge. If I were free what value would I have to you or myself? Remember, I do not tolerate fools lightly, with or without a badge!

Billy Jack
abillyjack@yahoo.com
www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

HotRails
09-05-2009, 9:28 PM
Interesting. I wonder if favorable factor (e), page 6 contributed to the incorrect assumption that CA residents have a duty to retreat from an attack.

DSeifert
09-05-2009, 9:38 PM
Just curious how much "significant amounts of valuable property" consists of?

My rear end is "Significant" :rolleyes: and quite valuable IMHO ... but alas I'm not in LA ...

7x57
09-05-2009, 9:51 PM
The question unanswered is how this differs from TBJ's efforts.

If it leads to people no longer having to sue LA after the first few times so that in time there is no need for help from TBJ, Jason, or anyone else expensive <grin>, then that would be a good thing.

7x57

JasonDavis
09-05-2009, 10:05 PM
As an update, CalGuns Foundation, Inc. asked me to post the Public Records Act request that we are sending to the City of Los Angeles Police Department. A copy of the Public Records Act request can be found here:
http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/ccw/090905-LAPD-CCW.pdf

Stay tuned for their response.

And, regarding TBJ, I have been in communications with TBJ on this very topic. He, and his team, has been informative and open in providing me with information and documents necessary to give CalGuns Foundation, Inc. a head start in their research.

capo
09-05-2009, 10:16 PM
Interesting, I was always under the impression that the security clause was severely frowned upon by LAPD when looking to get a CCW...

Dirtbozz
09-05-2009, 10:26 PM
The City of Los Angeles is only part of the problem. L A County, and it's sheriff, are just as corrupt.

I really appreciate the efforts of Calguns, but I am hoping that the county will be put "in your sights" also.

hoffmang
09-06-2009, 1:00 AM
I really appreciate the efforts of Calguns, but I am hoping that the county will be put "in your sights" also.

All 58 are in the sights. Most of the 58 are decent sheriffs. However, by population...

We're just making sure that we're aware of all the background. Sykes and Palmer will fully change the battlespace. However, it looks like LA can be reminded of how to play by the rules even sooner...

-Gene

lehn20
09-06-2009, 1:16 AM
tagged

cousinkix1953
09-06-2009, 1:26 AM
At the request of CalGuns Foundation, Inc., I was asked to investigate the City of Los Angeles' and the LAPD’s policies and practices on the issuance of licenses to carry concealed handguns. This attached open letter serves as a summary of the City of Los Angeles' and LAPD’s policies and guidelines on issuance of licenses to carry concealed handguns. A second open letter addressing their practices will follow after the investigation is complete.

Quick summary . . . Los Angeles CCWs are very possible as they pretty much have a shall issue policy for certain categories of persons. Read the letter!
It's about time. Are you a famous person? They can get a CCW permit unless a criminal record prevents an important Hollywood movie star from posessing a gun at all. They get special treatment, when arrested for crimes too.

The little people are SOL unless they know somebody in the regeime...

Kestryll
09-06-2009, 1:50 AM
I'd suggest folks in LA contact Jason as we'd like to test out LA's compliance with the court order. Don't forget who LA City Attorney is...

-Gene

Hmmm.. I live in L.A. City...

I wonder if running a Second Amendment rights advocacy forum and sreving on the CGF Board qualifies as:
service to the community ...or public service organizations or activities or in political affairs;

All things considered someone would be hard pressed to prove that I DON'T have a history of safe gun handling and a "commitment to safe and responsible handling of firearms".

Now I need to come up with good cause.... ;)

Billy Jack
09-06-2009, 9:44 AM
Do not confuse corruption with a philosophical objection to civilian CCW. LAPD simply has a long standing philosophy against wanting to issue CCW's to civilians. Where other departments like SFSO, SFPD, LASO, ASO, CCSO and my current project, SCSO have policies that combine both corruption and a desire not to issue to the general public.

Each over time have created ways to use CCW's as a reward to special people. Do not get me wrong, simply walking in with a paper bag of cash will not get you a CCW in those jurisdictions. Might even get you arrested for bribery. It is much more subtle than that. I actually admire how some Sheriff's and Chief's do it.

Chief's with I believe one exception, are appointed by city councils so they are not subject to pressure to raise as Jimmie Breslin used to call it 'Mr. Green' but Sheriffs are. So Chief's like to issue to people the city council like and a few they personally like.

Sheriffs, are whole different animal. Sheriff's like being Sheriffs and to stay Sheriff they have to get re-elected. That takes 'Mr Green'. They need sponsored fund raisers at real nice place with real nice food and beverage for the real nice special people who attend, who want to tell them how great a job they are doing.

At these functions checks are delivered, hands are shaken and people are hugged. Makes me all warm and toasty just writing about it. Later some of those people may want a CCW to show to their friends and associates that they have a friend in high places. Not everyone who gives a campaign contribution wants a CCW.

There are other ways this dirty little system works. A close associate of the Sheriff forms a tax exempt civic organization called the 'Friends of the Sheriff',' 'Sheriff Advisory Council', the Sheriff's Posse' or some other real nice sounding name.

These organizations allow local civic minded people to join. They hold fundraisers and at these events they also write checks. The people on the Board of these civic organizations are very closely associated with the Sheriff. Some of these organizations are legitimate and spend the money on things for the department and Deputies. Some do not. Some might cut a check to a 'company' for law enforcement equipment and the company owner cuts a check in the same amount to cash. Sound famaliar? To prove where that cash check went is a task for the FBI and US Attorney. Billy Jack just points them in the right direction.

The point of this primer on how CCW's are issued is for you to all begin understanding how the system really works and stop making wild unsubstantiated allegations about what you think is going on.

As an example many celebrities give money to Sheriff Baca and attend his fundraisers and they do not have CCW's. Open your eyes and look at the celebrites associates, their bodyguards, personal driver and so forth. I am annoyed when people make or post statements they can not support with facts. Opinions, emotions and theories will not gain you a victory in State or Federal court and will gain you my disdain.

Want to see what is really going on out there? Pay us a visit, read my Billy Jack's Pow Wow Corner. As is custom of my people, you must remove shoes when visiting my site.

Billy Jack
www.californiaconcealedcarry.com
abillyjack@yahoo.com

"Being a Native American is as much a matter or attitude as a matter of blood"
Billy Jack

"When policemen break the law, then there isn't any law.....just a fight for survival!" Billy Jack

leadchucker
09-07-2009, 12:09 AM
It always amazes me how "circumstances exist requiring him or her to transport in public significant amounts of valuable property" constitutes "good cause", while general personal protection does not. It just shows how little these institutions really value human life:mad:

yellowfin
09-07-2009, 6:47 AM
Do not confuse corruption with a philosophical objection to civilian CCW. The difference in being struck by lightning and being electrocuted. Both death by electricity, same tingly sensation, same result. It's a mere technicality as to exactly which one did it. Both equally damnable.

Dirtbozz
09-07-2009, 8:34 AM
Do not confuse corruption with a philosophical objection to civilian CCW. LAPD simply has a long standing philosophy against wanting to issue CCW's to civilians.Billy Jack

The term "corruption" applies here because CCWs are issued only to the sheriff's buddies and contributors. Therefore, he is receiving a "quid pro quo".

FastFinger
09-07-2009, 9:14 AM
Hmmm....

4) Persons who transport in public, significant amounts of valuable property which is impractical to entrust to the protection of armored car services



If you've checked out the cost of having a good smith do the full Monty on a competition 1911, and keeping in mind the fact that currently due to ammo shortages a full mag or two of quality hollow points are worth their weight in gold, clearly a good concealed carry set up by itself would be pretty valuable property.

So can I make the case that when I'm issued my ccw I will be a person who transports in public, significant amounts of valuable property which is impractical to entrust to the protection of armored car services, therefore I should be issued a ccw?

I'll call it my begging the question justification application.

yellowfin
09-07-2009, 4:21 PM
I'd say your car qualifies as a valuable piece of property people are known to be prone to stealing.

FastFinger
09-07-2009, 6:33 PM
I'd say your car qualifies as a valuable piece of property people are known to be prone to stealing.

Actually you have a good point.

See if it can be determined what the average value of the "significant amounts of valuable property" that people who were issued ccw's routinely transport, then compare it to the value of a typical auto stolen through a car jacking.

I'd also be willing to bet that the incidents of car jackings out number the incidents of those issued ccw's being vicimized in a crime.

woodsman
09-07-2009, 8:49 PM
Never thought of it in those terms.

FreshTapCoke
09-08-2009, 12:39 AM
I'd say your car qualifies as a valuable piece of property people are known to be prone to stealing.

I like the way you think!

Fate
09-08-2009, 12:52 AM
In re: Obtaining A CCW In The City of Los Angeles
...
e) that the applicant suffers under a disability or physical handicap; including age or
obesity, which hinders the applicant’s ability to retreat from an attacker.
Hmm...Right now, I'm the primary care provider for a 3 year old. "Retreat" from an attacker is impossible with a child, especially when they are infants/toddlers. Nor can you stand and fight. More than once I've been accosted with child in tow...possibly because I was "handicapped" by them. None of the situations proceeded to a "good shoot" level, but they were touch and go. Even though I'm in LA, I still doubt that I qualify under the Sheriff's rules.

XD45
09-08-2009, 2:28 AM
Wow... My wife and I have been residents of the city of Los Angeles for five years. I believe I have good cause as outlined above. We live in a neighborhood where the back alleys are plagued with violent gang activity (shootings, tagging, loitering, theft etc..). Both my wife and I have been the victims of violent threats by gang members as we come home at night and park our cars in the alley. I have been told by our local police dept., "Don't even bother applying for the CCW, you'll be denied automatically.". I am now entertaining the idea of applying but it seems working with a good lawyer may prove useful. If I can't afford an attorney do I stand a chance of fighting this on my own? Thanks!

Glock22Fan
09-08-2009, 8:14 AM
Wow... My wife and I have been residents of the city of Los Angeles for five years. I believe I have good cause as outlined above. We live in a neighborhood where the back alleys are plagued with violent gang activity (shootings, tagging, loitering, theft etc..). Both my wife and I have been the victims of violent threats by gang members as we come home at night and park our cars in the alley. I have been told by our local police dept., "Don't even bother applying for the CCW, you'll be denied automatically.". I am now entertaining the idea of applying but it seems working with a good lawyer may prove useful. If I can't afford an attorney do I stand a chance of fighting this on my own? Thanks!

Provided you do your research and proceed in a sensible way, Team Billy Jack will, at no cost, assist you in getting your ducks in a row, helping you refine your Good Cause, to do everything properly and generally advising you right up to the point that your appeal is denied (if that happens). Only if you want to go further than this and take legal action does the prospect of spending more money (than required by the permit) arise.

If anyone with cause, as explained above, wants to follow this path, please contact us via email or p.m. BEFORE you contact LAPD.

sfpcservice
09-08-2009, 1:06 PM
I was assisted free of charge by TBJ in the beginning and I now think it may have paid off; and without the need to sue someone. Contact them first before anyone else. I think the first couple of steps they will direct you to take are the key to the process. Just don't send Billy Jack emails on a holiday weekend and you should be good!

supermario
09-08-2009, 7:21 PM
I'd suggest folks in LA contact Jason as we'd like to test out LA's compliance with the court order. Don't forget who LA City Attorney is...

-Gene


In about two months I will be applying (hopefully passing) my Private Investigators license. I have been employed as an Investigator for 10 years now and working under my employers license. I work in very very bad areas and frequently do surveillance for the La County Sheriff dept and on the LASD:eek: I basiclly do surveillance in all the nasties areas of L.A.
I feel that is "good cause" and I will be applying. Do you think a P.I. falls under the "Security field". The private investigators licensing is under the
Bureau of Security and Investigative Services so I would think so.
I obtained this off of the their website: Do you think I am a good candidate for the CCW. I think I am and hopefully it can be possible.

Can a Private Investigator carry a concealed weapon?
Yes. A Private Investigator may carry a concealed weapon on duty if he/she also has BSIS exposed firearms permit, and possesses a concealed weapons permit issued by local law enforcement or:

Is a retired peace officer with an endorsement to carry a concealed weapon or
Is an active duty peace officer

Must Private Investigators who have concealed weapon permits, also have the Bureau's exposed weapons permit while on duty?
Yes. Even though a Private Investigator may possess a concealed weapons permit, he/she must also complete Bureau-approved firearms training course and obtain the Bureau's exposed firearms permit prior to carrying and using a firearm.

Can a Private Investigator act as a bodyguard?
A Private Investigator may protect individuals. However, he/she may only do so in connection with a case that he/she has been previously hired to investigate.

Stubby
09-08-2009, 7:57 PM
DANG!!! I wish I still lived in LA!! I would so give them a ration of trouble on this:43:

yellowfin
09-08-2009, 8:07 PM
Just think of how many thousands more people would be up for applying if the gun culture hadn't been actively exterminated from L.A.

postal
09-08-2009, 11:47 PM
I dont live in hell A...

but for the fat people not being able to retreat....

Hmmmm.....

I'm skinny... underweight actually... but I'm over a pack a day smoker-
If you are too, you can try the smoker thing and not being able to make a hasty retreat....

(course it's truly not your duty to retreat- texas and florida do not require retreat- neither should any other state)

Billy Jack
09-09-2009, 9:43 AM
Supermario,

contact us at abillyjack@yahoo.com

Too many questions and not nearly specific enough to answer.

Billy Jack

Gray Peterson
10-15-2009, 10:30 AM
Email Jason Davis, TacoBandit.

dantodd
10-15-2009, 10:33 AM
the detective stated that an LA issued CCW was only good for LA county and that I can not carry it into any other county and that other people with outside LA CCW's cant carry in LA, is that true?

Possibly on the first part and no on the second.


The county can put any restrictions they want on the CCWs they issue. So it is possible that yours will be stamped only valid in LA County. However; LA county MUST recognize a CCW issued by other counties. Unless your county limits their CCW validity you are good to carry anywhere in CA.

GuyW
10-15-2009, 10:35 AM
spoke to the gun unit today the detective stated that an LA issued CCW was only good for LA county and that I can not carry it into any other county

True only if the issued CCW says upon it, "only good in LA County". I doubt this is a standard condition....the falsity of this is also supported by the falsity of the next BS statement....

spoke to the gun unit today the detective stated....that other people with outside LA CCW's cant carry in LA, is that true?

Absolutely false (unless they have a CCW limited similar to above).

This clown is just jerking you around.
.

Tacobandit
10-15-2009, 10:43 AM
The detective also said that if i wanted a state wide i would have to get one issued by DOJ, but everything I have read and even the law states that a CCW is ONLY issued by sheriff or chief.

Midian
10-15-2009, 10:47 AM
So a little off topic here, is Ventura County easier on the law abiding gun owning resident than LA? Like Billy Jack stated, I just don't bother applying since the overwhelming feeling I'll be spinning my wheels takes the fuel out of the endeavour.

Since my wife's mother is a judge in Ventura County...and anti-gun I can assure you that...I have no idea if that would hinder my chances even further. As for "good cause" I'd be hard pressed to think of one that meets the narrowly suggested criteria. Visual Effects guys aren't really in harm's way a lot....unless you count irate, clueless Producers on a tirade.
I'd just feel one hell of a lot better with a pistol in my jacket.

How far up the chain does the CCW application go?

GuyW
10-15-2009, 10:56 AM
The detective also said that if i wanted a state wide i would have to get one issued by DOJ

No such animal exists.

.

dantodd
10-15-2009, 11:18 AM
The detective also said that if i wanted a state wide i would have to get one issued by DOJ, but everything I have read and even the law states that a CCW is ONLY issued by sheriff or chief.

I would love to get these things on tape. They are feeding you so much blatantly false information it would be funny your livlihood and safety dind't hang in the balance.

curtisfong
10-15-2009, 11:22 AM
The detective also said that if i wanted a state wide i would have to get one issued by DOJ

<jaw drops>

What?

Wow.

boxbro
10-15-2009, 11:28 AM
Billy,
I have emailed you about my issues with LAPD but havent received a reply, I am getting a run around with LAPD gun unit, I have good cause that fits in 2 of the shall issue by LAPD policy, when i spoke to the gun unit today the detective stated that an LA issued CCW was only good for LA county and that I can not carry it into any other county and that other people with outside LA CCW's cant carry in LA, is that true?

Try abillyjack@gmail.com or aclueseau@yahoo.com

bodger
10-15-2009, 1:37 PM
Billy,
I have emailed you about my issues with LAPD but havent received a reply, I am getting a run around with LAPD gun unit, I have good cause that fits in 2 of the shall issue by LAPD policy, when i spoke to the gun unit today the detective stated that an LA issued CCW was only good for LA county and that I can not carry it into any other county and that other people with outside LA CCW's cant carry in LA, is that true?



Unbelievable but does not surprise me.

I had an LAPD officer tell me a few months ago that it was no longer possible to apply for, much less receive, a CCW in the city or county of Los Angeles.

I don't know what they tell these guys, but they are misinformed or instructed to misinform us.

Mute
10-15-2009, 1:56 PM
This may be the only instance, ever, that I wished I actually lived in the city of L.A.

5hundo
10-15-2009, 2:23 PM
In re: Obtaining A CCW In The City of Los Angeles
...
e) that the applicant suffers under a disability or physical handicap; including age or
obesity, which hinders the applicant’s ability to retreat from an attacker.

Hmmmm....

I'm a disabled veteran (50% service connected disability). I never thought that would actually help me in my efforts to get a CCW...

By the way, if you don't live in "The city of L.A." but you live somewhere under their jurisdiction (like Lomita, Harbor City or San Pedro) do you apply with those cities, or through L.A.?

dantodd
10-15-2009, 2:27 PM
Hmmmm....

I'm a disabled veteran (50% service connected disability). I never thought that would actually help me in my efforts to get a CCW...

By the way, if you don't live in "The city of L.A." but you live somewhere under their jurisdiction (like Lomita, Harbor City or San Pedro) do you apply with those cities, or through L.A.?

As long as you are in LA County you can apply directly to the LA sheriff's office.

bodger
10-15-2009, 2:35 PM
Hmmmm....

I'm a disabled veteran (50% service connected disability). I never thought that would actually help me in my efforts to get a CCW...

By the way, if you don't live in "The city of L.A." but you live somewhere under their jurisdiction (like Lomita, Harbor City or San Pedro) do you apply with those cities, or through L.A.?


Well, that's what it says, so it might help you. Let's hope so.

And thanks for your service 5hundo.

Tacobandit
10-16-2009, 2:35 AM
As long as you are in LA County you can apply directly to the LA sheriff's office.

I originally applied with the LASO but they informed me that they would only consider my application after I was rejected by LAPD since I live in LAPD jurisdiction, so if LAPD patrols your area you have to talk to the gun unit first.

But it wont be easy, LAPD ignores its own policies and even the law when it chooses too, part of why I am no longer a peace officer.

5hundo
10-16-2009, 9:30 AM
And thanks for your service 5hundo.

Thank you too. I'm asuming by your avatar that you're a vet as well...

I'm torn between attempting to apply here in L.A., or just moving my residency to a different (2A friendly) county where I currently own property. I think the latter option would be the easiest and most successful...

bodger
10-16-2009, 9:47 AM
Thank you too. I'm asuming by your avatar that you're a vet as well...

I'm torn between attempting to apply here in L.A., or just moving my residency to a different (2A friendly) county where I currently own property. I think the latter option would be the easiest and most successful...

Yessir. USAF, Air Defense Command, 552nd AEW&C Wing,
Southeast Asia 1971-1973.

It would seem that there are actions being taken that will increase the odds of us Angelenos getting issued a CCW.

I'm watching it, seeing is believing.

5hundo
10-16-2009, 10:31 AM
Yessir. USAF, Air Defense Command, 552nd AEW&C Wing,
Southeast Asia 1971-1973.

That's cool...

My stepdad was in country from 1966-1967 at Phu Cat. He's got some crazy stories (and pictures too). He was photo recon and processed film from the RF-4s that would drop the canisters over Phu Cat (before they installed the a paved runway)...

Billy Jack
10-16-2009, 11:08 AM
Seems like we have to come along every few weeks and clarify the law and policy.

A CA CCW is valid anywhere in the state that is not restricted. I have never heard of let alone seen a permit restricted to the issuing county only. Folks, it is a statewide license, just like your driver license.

Most Sheriffs require you to be denied by your residence PD prior to applying to them.

Please read 12050 PC and the Attorney General Opinion prior to contacting any law enforcement agency. Do not call them and do not go in, in person unless directed to do so. You start the process with a certain amount of gravitas or credibility and you lose same if you do not seem to understand the process. I know of some interviewers who brag about breaking out laughing after the applicant leaves because they were so freakin stupid and unprepared.

If you want results contact TBJ or Attorney Jason Davis. TBJ will hold your hand during the application process and represent you in litigation if you have both Good Cause and the stones to take on a law enforcement agency.

I personally answer every inquiry.

Billy Jack


"When policemen break the law, then there isn't any law......just a fight for survival!"


aclueseau@yahoo.com
abillyjack@gmail.com

Mute
10-16-2009, 12:39 PM
It's too bad we don't have a similar ruling against the LASD otherwise I'd love to apply and test them.

Tacobandit
10-16-2009, 1:50 PM
Seems like we have to come along every few weeks and clarify the law and policy.

A CA CCW is valid anywhere in the state that is not restricted. I have never heard of let alone seen a permit restricted to the issuing county only. Folks, it is a statewide license, just like your driver license.

Most Sheriffs require you to be denied by your residence PD prior to applying to them.

Please read 12050 PC and the Attorney General Opinion prior to contacting any law enforcement agency. Do not call them and do not go in, in person unless directed to do so. You start the process with a certain amount of gravitas or credibility and you lose same if you do not seem to understand the process. I know of some interviewers who brag about breaking out laughing after the applicant leaves because they were so freakin stupid and unprepared.

If you want results contact TBJ or Attorney Jason Davis. TBJ will hold your hand during the application process and represent you in litigation if you have both Good Cause and the stones to take on a law enforcement agency.

I personally answer every inquiry.

Billy Jack


"When policemen break the law, then there isn't any law......just a fight for survival!"


aclueseau@yahoo.com
abillyjack@gmail.com

Correct me if I am wrong but you have all the licenses that LAPD has issued correct? Does any of them have a restriction to LA county only? Would i be able to get copies of them to show when i go in for my interview that LAPD does not restrict them in such a way? I am looking for all the ammo I can get to get this CCW issued as quick as possible.
Thanks

dantodd
10-16-2009, 1:59 PM
Would i be able to get copies of them to show when i go in for my interview that LAPD does not restrict them in such a way?

You really wouldn't want to do that. Just go in and if they issue you a license you're good to carry anywhere not specifically restricted by law or the limits printed on the CCW itself. Going in and telling the officer they are wrong will only piss the officer off and guarantee a denial.

Billy Jack
10-16-2009, 3:33 PM
Tacobandit, I do indeed have all the LAPD CCW's as of 18 months ago. They are work product and I am not permitted to release them.

Never go into a law enforcement contact with the idea of telling them the law or they are wrong.

If you actually fall into one of the inumerated categories you can also expect to be denied. You will then be allowed to appeal to a Citizen's Review Commission. They can make a recomendation that is contrary to the departments decision. But, under the Stipulated Settlement the Chief is not requierd to follow their decision. So, you will have two very nice letters for your file.

Someone with with stones and Good Cause will have to apply, be denied and then sue the new Chief for contempt and a Writ of Mandamus to compel compliance, other relief the Judge feels appropriate and money damages for your trouble. In addition, a good attorney will have the opportunity to make a case to the Judge that the original Settlement was not clear enough for the Constitutionally challenged LAPD Command Staff and Chief to understand and it needs to be clarified.

Question is, my friend, do you have Good Cause and the stones to stare down LAPD? Well do you?

Billy Jack

loather
10-16-2009, 4:44 PM
Question is, my friend, do you have Good Cause and the stones to stare down LAPD? Well do you?

"Do you feel lucky? Well do you, punk?"

swhatb
10-16-2009, 4:50 PM
At the request of CalGuns Foundation, Inc., I was asked to investigate the City of Los Angeles' and the LAPD’s policies and practices on the issuance of licenses to carry concealed handguns. This attached open letter serves as a summary of the City of Los Angeles' and LAPD’s policies and guidelines on issuance of licenses to carry concealed handguns. A second open letter addressing their practices will follow after the investigation is complete.

Quick summary . . . Los Angeles CCWs are very possible as they pretty much have a shall issue policy for certain categories of persons. Read the letter!

Cool. Thanks for the work. How about Santa Clara County or Alameda County.

mattmcg
10-16-2009, 11:36 PM
So BillyJack, why the change of heart?

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=1300516#post1300516

I seem to recall you were done with Calguns and discussing the issues at hand on this forum. Helping Calgun's members were taking away from "billable" hours......

I must say, it's nice to see the Calguns Foundation making progress here. Being in Contra-Costa, I also have an uphill battle with Sheriff Rupf. As we look at a possible transition, this will be an area to "set the tone" for how CCW issuance is treated moving forward post Rupf.

nicki
10-17-2009, 2:56 AM
Welcome back Billy Jack, I hope that you and the guys at the Calguns foundation can work together.

I am sure there will be plenty of litigation post MacDonald.:43:

Nicki

Billy Jack
10-17-2009, 5:14 AM
TBJ is actively working three departments one of which is Santa Clara SO. These investigations can take a year or longer to get all files prior to filing or you wind up with a 'Gorski'. Billy Jack like to understand and appreciate his adversaries prior to going nuclear on them.

All it takes to bring down a bad policy anywhere is one good applicant with, well you all know the rest of that sentence by now.

Billy Jack

"When politicians break the law, then there isn't any law......just a fight for survival!"

abillyjack@gmail.com
aclueseau@yahoo.com

CavTrooper
10-17-2009, 9:18 AM
Billy Jack-

Since we know that litigation isn't free, by "stones", we can only assume that you speaking of cold hard cash, am I correct? How big of a "stone sack" should one have on hand when approching TBJ for assistance?

curtisfong
10-17-2009, 10:50 AM
How big of a "stone sack" should one have on hand when approching TBJ for assistance?

I am ready to do this in LA once I know the total. The commitment doesn't bother me. Nor does doing lots of paperwork, or being persistent. The only question is $$$.

mattmcg
10-18-2009, 1:57 AM
Curtisfong, I believe Jason (the OP) is providing information for you to simply follow "shall issue" procedure in LA and do this yourself for very little money (cost of training, filing fee, etc.).

While BillyJack is interested in helping you put together your "good cause" application for free, they are banking on a refusal to then follow on with expensive investigations and litigation. If that is what is needed after a denial, I guess that is the only way to go but the Calguns Foundation is fighting for "cost efficient shall issue" from the get go if I understand correctly.

"Shall issue" is what we all need to be fighting for for us to regain our right to self-defense in this state.

Billy Jack
10-18-2009, 10:00 AM
I am one of the most accessible people on this site. You folks have got to stop speculating about that which you know nothing. I do not discuss my financial arrangements on Internet sites. If anyone wants to know more information they can contact me at the sites listed below.

'Those who say don't know, and those who know, don't say!'

Pogo in the 1960's said: "I have seen the enemy and he is us!" Many in the CCW/firearm movement are indeed their own enemies. If this is too Zen I can explain in simpler terms.

LAPD will continue to deny virtually all whom apply, even those who are enumerated in the Stipulated Settlement. That is because they have an institutionalized policy of non issuance.

Billy Jack

"When policemen break the law, then there isn't any law......just a fight for survival!"

www.californiaconcealedcarry.com
abillyjack@gmail.com
aclueseau@yahoo.com

bodger
10-18-2009, 10:07 AM
I am one of the most accessible people on this site. You folks have got to stop speculating about that which you know nothing. I do not discuss my financial arrangements on Internet sites. If anyone wants to know more information they can contact me at the sites listed below.

'Those who say don't know, and those who know, don't say!'

Pogo in the 1960's said: "I have seen the enemy and he is us!" Many in the CCW/firearm movement are indeed their own enemies. If this is too Zen I can explain in simpler terms.

LAPD will continue to deny virtually all whom apply, even those who are inumerated in the Stipulated Settlement. That is because they have an institutionalized policy of non issuance.

Billy Jack

"When policemen break the law, then there isn't any law......just a fight for survival!"

www.californiaconcealedcarry.com
abillyjack@gmail.com
aclueseau@yahoo.com


I want to fully understand the approach. I live in Los Angeles and I want to apply for a CCW and allow myself the best chance for issuance.

I first contact Billy Jack for guidance through the application process and the wording of the Good Cause. If denied, which seems certain, I then retain Billy Jack to begin the appeal process and/or litigation?

Thanks.
-Bodger

Billy Jack
10-18-2009, 10:15 AM
That is your option on denial. We hold your hand during the application and appeal. I am fully supported by two attorneys during this process. We do not charge for this. After denial we can discuss your options and costs. As you can see I am on my computer so drop me an e-mail. I am working with an applicant in Kern county as I am writing this.

Billy Jack

JasonDavis
11-08-2009, 7:01 PM
Calguns Foundation, Inc. thought that some of you might want an update on the LAPD CCW application / issuance policy analysis. We are far from complete at this time, but we have received some LAPD responses to our request. See the summary at http://hoffmang.com/firearms/ccw/LAPDCCWSTATS-2009-11-08.pdf. More to come . . .

dantodd
11-08-2009, 8:00 PM
Excellent information. As you know I have been quite vocal about the fact that this sort of information has to be public. I appreciate your and CGF's efforts is doing so.

Does this data include all permits (i.e. retired law enforcement, judges, custodial officers, appointed reserve officers, etc.) or is it only for 2 year "average citizen" permits? It would be particularly interesting to know about any permits issued under 12050(a)(2)(B) to reserves appointed pursuant to 830.6

JasonDavis
11-08-2009, 8:43 PM
Dan,

Just "average citizen" permits at this point.

dantodd
11-08-2009, 9:37 PM
Dan,

Just "average citizen" permits at this point.

It would certainly be interesting to know if they had several hundred appointed reservists primarily for CCW rights as a way to avoid the court order.

Librarian
11-08-2009, 10:26 PM
LA demographics (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/06/0644000.html) are interesting.

About 27% of the residents are under 18, and about 10% are 65 and older. Just for back of the envelope, say all 37% of those either would be ineligible or uninterested. That would leave around 2.4 million age-appropriate adults in LA.

In 2001, Bureau of Justice Statistics (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm#prevalence) says about 3% of adults had a prison record. Lets say that's true both now and in LA - that subtracts an additional 75,000.

1992-2002 LA county had about 40,000 parolees added each year, and 43K to 47K 2003-2007. Typically, parole lasts 3-5 years. There are at the moment about 62,000 adult probationers (http://probation.co.la.ca.us/anmviewer.asp?a=138&z=5) in LA County. Let's use 5 years, which subtracts about 250,000 from the pool of eligible adults.

In round numbers, that's about 400,000 ineligible adults with felony record, or on parole or on probation (there's obviously some overlap, but this is guesstimating).

Let's pick Florida. Florida has 657K CCW (http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/licensetypecount.html) for 'regular people', and the state has about 11 million 18-64 year olds. I subtracted 400k/2400K from LA, about a 6th, so lets say Florida has about 1/6 of its age-appropriate adults otherwise ineligible. That leaves 9.2 million presumably eligible adults.

Florida has about 7% of its eligible population with CCW.

A comparable figure for LA would be about 140,000.

DOUBLE the ineligibles, leaving 1,600,000, and HALVE the demand to 3.5% and we still have 56,000 we might expect for a population the size of LA's.

And yet LA has all of 19 permits in force.

Makes one wonder.

sb_pete
11-09-2009, 1:22 AM
lol, 19?

Really? 19?

Where does this number come from? Is this just LAPD issued or LA County as a whole?

Seriously, 19? Mind boggling... in a really bad way.

Peter W Bush
11-09-2009, 1:42 AM
Billy Jack and Team members have always been willing to discuss the LAPD Stipulated Settlement Agreement with any concerned resident of Los Angeles. Most who post and who reside within the city limit will never bother to apply out of irrational fear of denial and its ramifications.

If you fall into one of the enumerated categories by all means get up from that computer screen and apply. I consider all of my illegal denials a badge of honor. LAPD, LASO, SAPD, OCSO. I have to devote an entire page to the denials each time I go for my renewal.

Jason is a capable, qualified Attorney who will assist qualified motivated applicants to LAPD.

If you have any questions about what Team Billy Jack does you can contact us at abillyjack.yahoo.com and someone will call you back. Thats right, a real person will call you back. We assist many applicants monthly and without charge. We also sue bad departments for which we charge. If I were free what value would I have to you or myself? Remember, I do not tolerate fools lightly, with or without a badge!

Billy Jack
abillyjack@yahoo.com
www.californiaconcealedcarry.com

I thought you were gone??

Billy Jack
11-09-2009, 11:42 AM
Naw, I am still here. No reason to post, have nothing to add. Just hope readers take the opportunity to read this entire thread. Lots of good information from many sources.

Not happy with new LAPD Chief Beck. Just another Bratton clone.

Once he is spanked a bit in Suprior Court he will become CCW compliant and follow the Stipulated Settlement. We can then turn our attention to the 45 or so Chiefs in Los Angeles County that will not follow the law and last and certainly not least LASO.

It will require about $100,000 to successfully sue the department and months to examine their 377 plus CCW files. Some of the files go back over 25 years and contain hundreds of pages. You can not just file a suit and expect them to roll over.

Billy Jack

jello2594
12-27-2009, 1:21 AM
If there was any doubt, Charlie clears it up.

0SotYYpPDgw

CEDaytonaRydr
03-12-2010, 10:23 AM
If there was any doubt, Charlie clears it up.

0SotYYpPDgw

:rolleyes:

I can't believe he's alluding to the fact that having only 17 gun stores in the city of LA is a good thing. Considering that commercial real-estate is suffering throughout the city and the state is almost bankrupt, you'd think that the city would welcome the business (and the tax revenue)...

Meanwhile, isn't the city about to layoff cops and firefighters? :confused:

For the sake of all LA residents, I hope those layoffs start at the top. ;)