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View Full Version : Question about C&R, 50 year old, cash & carry


Bullseye57
09-03-2009, 5:14 PM
Spoke to a guy today who claims that if you are selling a C&R long gun that is 50 years of age (or older) AND you can still buy ammunition for it, it is not eligable for a cash and carry transaction....has anyone out there heard of this? :confused:

I asked for a reference but he was busy with another customer while speaking to me and he couldn't recall off the top of his head at the time.

Any of you experts out there willing to chime in on this?

Thanks

Crusader
09-03-2009, 5:21 PM
I don't understand. He said that a person can only cash and carry a rifle if ammunition for said firearm no longer exists?

That doesn't make much sense, does it?

Bullseye57
09-03-2009, 5:37 PM
Exactly my thought...... seeing how this "advice" was given at a gun store maybe they're trying to drive sales through their place to make a buck of the DROS thing???

ke6guj
09-03-2009, 5:46 PM
sounds like he is mixing up some C&R vs. Antique firearm regulations.

Here is the cash-and-carry exemption from the PPT DROS requirement.12078(t)(2) Subdivision (d) and paragraph (1) of subdivision (f) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the infrequent sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is not a handgun, which is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.


Here is the antique fiream definition as it applies to 12020 which applies to stuff like SBS, SBR, and AOWs12020(b)(5) Any antique firearm. For purposes of this section, "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

That "non available" ammo only applies to antiques, and only in regards to 12020.

joefrank64k
09-03-2009, 8:22 PM
Spoke to a guy today who claims that if you are selling a C&R long gun that is 50 years of age (or older) AND you can still buy ammunition for it, it is not eligable for a cash and carry transaction....has anyone out there heard of this? :confused:

I asked for a reference but he was busy with another customer while speaking to me and he couldn't recall off the top of his head at the time.

Any of you experts out there willing to chime in on this?

Thanks

WTF??? :fud:

You were right to ask the guy for a reference, and what do you know? He couldn't recall the info!

It's like ke6guj (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/member.php?u=5064) laid out...in California, any gun, over 50 years old (made before 1959) that can't be readily concealed on the person, can be transferred between non-licensees (as long as they aren't prohibited from possessing a gun of course) without using an 01 FFL. It has nothing to do with ammunition...

Now, if an 01 FFL does the transfer, he HAS TO go the full monty: DROS, Background Check, 10-day wait (exception for 03 FFL w/COE), gun lock/safe affidavit, etc. Again, it has nothing to do with ammunition.

Frustrating when I hear this stuff!!! :banghead:

EOD Guy
09-04-2009, 6:29 AM
sounds like he is mixing up some C&R vs. Antique firearm regulations.

Here is the cash-and-carry exemption from the PPT DROS requirement.


Here is the antique fiream definition as it applies to 12020 which applies to stuff like SBS, SBR, and AOWs

That "non available" ammo only applies to antiques, and only in regards to 12020.

In order to avoid confusion, I want to point out that the definition you posted only applies to NFA regulated firearms.

Under the Gun Control Act, antiques do not loose that definition if they can use available ammunition. For instance, I have a Springfield Trapdoor rifle that uses available ammunition (45/70 Government) and it's still classified as an antique. A replica of that rifle would not be an antique.

ke6guj
09-04-2009, 12:28 PM
correct. I mentioned "as it applies to 12020" but it doesn't hurt to clarify that.

CSACANNONEER
09-04-2009, 12:39 PM
I know a few self proclaimed experts who agree with him. Fortunately, they are wrong. It's a shame that none of them are willing to listen to logic or actually read the laws. There's no way to change their minds.

BTW, if this was a gun shop, he's sort of right. A 01FFL can not sell a +50 year old long gun without a 10 day DROS period.

AngryPossum
09-04-2009, 1:32 PM
I know a few self proclaimed experts who agree with him. Fortunately, they are wrong. It's a shame that none of them are willing to listen to logic or actually read the laws. There's no way to change their minds.

BTW, if this was a gun shop, he's sort of right. A 01FFL can not sell a +50 year old long gun without a 10 day DROS period.

I believe the buyer of the 50+ older long gun is excempt from the 10 day wait on C & R purchases if he holds a C & R license.....so thats not completly true...

ke6guj
09-04-2009, 1:38 PM
exempt from the 10-day wait from a dealer if the purchaser has both a C&R and a COE (certificate of eligibility) from CADOJ. but he still has to DROS it.

AngryPossum
09-04-2009, 1:49 PM
I know about the dros...but are you sure about the COE...I think that's only for C & R handguns....I think for C & R longuns you only need a C & R license to be excempt the 10 day waiting period.

ke6guj
09-04-2009, 2:09 PM
12078(t)(1) The waiting period described in Sections 12071 or 12072 shall not apply to the sale, delivery, loan, or transfer of a firearm that is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor, by a dealer to a person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto who has a current certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12071. On the date that the delivery, sale, or transfer is made, the dealer delivering the firearm shall transmit to the Department of Justice an electronic or telephonic report of the transaction as is indicated in subdivision (b) or (c) of Section 12077. Bold is where is says you must have both the C&R and COE for a C&R firearm (note that it does not differentiate between handgun and long guns ). Underlined portion is where the DROS must still be performed, as you mentioned.

AngryPossum
09-04-2009, 2:15 PM
Guess I was misinformed...thank you for the reference and clarification.:D

CSACANNONEER
09-04-2009, 2:47 PM
I know a few self proclaimed experts who agree with him. Fortunately, they are wrong. It's a shame that none of them are willing to listen to logic or actually read the laws. There's no way to change their minds.

BTW, if this was a gun shop, he's sort of right. A 01FFL can not sell a +50 year old long gun without a 10 day DROS period.

I believe the buyer of the 50+ older long gun is excempt from the 10 day wait on C & R purchases if he holds a C & R license.....so thats not completly true...

exempt from the 10-day wait from a dealer if the purchaser has both a C&R and a COE (certificate of eligibility) from CADOJ. but he still has to DROS it.


Ok, so I left out being able to transfer from an 01 to an 03 FFL. I figured that since the OP was asking this question, he was not a FFL holder.