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The DRis
09-01-2009, 10:59 PM
From what I've read in the law it is a yes. But I was reading another thread on here, can't remember where, and somebody said an AR pistol is as close to an SBR as you'll get. I was gonna hire an attorney and go the trust route. Your thoughts.

DanHuuN
09-01-2009, 11:02 PM
yea...get the forms in order.....

The DRis
09-01-2009, 11:03 PM
yea...get the forms in order.....

Oh indeed I will. Hence me actually hiring an attorney instead of going the Quicken do it yourself way. Heard of too many things going wrong, in states that are much more Gun Friendly than ours.

badicedog
09-01-2009, 11:11 PM
Use the search feature. Hate to burst your bubble but unless you are an established motion picture props company, It's just not going to happen. You are more then welcome to prove 'all of us' wrong.:cool:

The DRis
09-01-2009, 11:13 PM
The search feature on all these boards is crap. It doesn't show up with anything. And I would like to know why you say that. CA law says that AOW's, SBS's, and SBR's are legal. Why would I not be able to get one.

TangoCharlie
09-01-2009, 11:15 PM
They're legal, but they have to be based on a C&R rifle. Getting signatures as an individual is another story altogether. But you already mentioned the Trust route.

The other caveat is that the gun will have to remain a C&R after the short-barrel conversion and this is where a lot of people run afoul. A C&R rifle that is C&R due to it being 50 years old or older is the only type of rifle that will qualify as an SBR in CA since it is the only type of C&R that is not wholly dependent on being in original or factory configuration to retain its C&R status. If you cut the barrel or otherwise modify any other type of C&R, then it will lose its C&R status and thus cannot be a CA-legal SBR.

Unfortunately, this doesn't leave a lot of room for cool SBRs.

The DRis
09-01-2009, 11:27 PM
WTF. That is a new one to me. Just used google to find the SBR/SBS thread here. That is disheartening.

chsk9
09-01-2009, 11:32 PM
WTF. That is a new one to me. Just used google to find the SBR/SBS thread here. That is disheartening.

:beatdeadhorse5:

The DRis
09-01-2009, 11:37 PM
:beatdeadhorse5:

Really dude. I mean fu kin really? This website is supposed to be a resource to California people looking for answers. I didn't know this. Its *** wipes like you who make me never want to come back to this website. If you have anything useful to post go ahead.

Linus
09-01-2009, 11:44 PM
Really dude. I mean fu kin really? This website is supposed to be a resource to California people looking for answers. I didn't know this. Its *** wipes like you who make me never want to come back to this website. If you have anything useful to post go ahead.

Your post, just like mine, is just as useless as his... You should have ignored his response just like I should have ignored yours.

Plisk
09-01-2009, 11:49 PM
From what I've read in the law it is a yes. But I was reading another thread on here, can't remember where, and somebody said an AR pistol is as close to an SBR as you'll get. I was gonna hire an attorney and go the trust route. Your thoughts.

What I'm curious about, is where and what law you read that Short Barreled Rifles are legal?

The DRis
09-01-2009, 11:51 PM
No its ridiculous. Guess what guys. There are going to be new members to this board every freaking day. And you know what, questions are gonna get asked. All I see is three pages of posts. they end on 8/31. So there isn't much backreading I can do. So you know what, I start a new thread and ask a question. If one of you "Senior Members" sees it and thinks "oh no, not another one of these" then you just don't go in it. Works the same way on Arfcomm and any of the other forums I'm on. I'm not a rookie, just a rookie to this forum. So I'm not familiar. So shoot me. When I see another "whats the best lower" or "how do I install this" I either post helpful responses or pass over it. It ain't that hard.

The DRis
09-01-2009, 11:52 PM
What I'm curious about, is where and what law you read that Short Barreled Rifles are legal?

I don't remember. But it was obvisously just part of the law. Reading the whole law I now see the part about the C&R. Hence me asking the question. Another dream shot down by CA.

Rick530
09-01-2009, 11:54 PM
Another dream shot down by CA. this state is REALLY good at that.

jinggoyd1967
09-01-2009, 11:57 PM
Anyway...
From what I understood that only C&R guns can be used for SBR, etc. Furthermore, the California assault weapon laws also apply to your SBR build. If it's a center-fire semi-auto, either loose the pistol grip or make it fixed mag.
That being said I still entertain the thought of building a double-barrel shotgun pistol like in Mad Max or Man on Fire.

Jpach
09-02-2009, 12:28 AM
No its ridiculous. Guess what guys. There are going to be new members to this board every freaking day. And you know what, questions are gonna get asked. All I see is three pages of posts. they end on 8/31. So there isn't much backreading I can do. So you know what, I start a new thread and ask a question. If one of you "Senior Members" sees it and thinks "oh no, not another one of these" then you just don't go in it. Works the same way on Arfcomm and any of the other forums I'm on. I'm not a rookie, just a rookie to this forum. So I'm not familiar. So shoot me. When I see another "whats the best lower" or "how do I install this" I either post helpful responses or pass over it. It ain't that hard.

The DRis has got a SERIOUS point here, everyone. I love telling people about this site but I think in the back of my mind, "People can be harsh on the forums though, so be careful with what you ask..." I never say it but I definitely think it. Its kind of sad because a lot of us here give bs unnecessary responses to people who are new to this stuff. Im sure even I have said unnecessary things before, but that doesnt make it right. I guaruntee half of the people posting that kind of crap to noobs were all sketched out by OLLs, BBs and the like at the beginning.

I suggest we ALL think twice about what we say to new guys. They're new, the search sucks, and most of the non-Calgunner FFLs spout FUD like crazy. Sack up and get off of your high post-count horse.

DRis, if you ever have any questions that you dont feel like posting on here about due to not wanting dumbass responses then shoot me a PM. Welcome to the forums and keep posting!

Jpach
09-02-2009, 12:29 AM
So is it possible to buy an SBR out of state that is also a C&R? One that was "born" as an SBR or altered at least 50 years ago or something?

unusedusername
09-02-2009, 12:32 AM
Anyway...
From what I understood that only C&R guns can be used for SBR, etc. Furthermore, the California assault weapon laws also apply to your SBR build. If it's a center-fire semi-auto, either loose the pistol grip or make it fixed mag.
That being said I still entertain the thought of building a double-barrel shotgun pistol like in Mad Max or Man on Fire.

You can get one of those in as a AOW assuming you have the proper legal setup...

You can't get one as a pistol as it fires shotgun rounds.

DanHuuN
09-02-2009, 12:39 AM
I think this thread needs to just die!

The OP has a good point but nevertheless people are going to chime in and throw smart-*** remarks. However it is entirely up to the reader to take it personal and get mad. Ultimately, understand that IT'S JUST A FORUM, dont take it PERSONAL.

djleisure
09-02-2009, 12:50 AM
Time to put on the big-boy pants!

darkiceman56
09-02-2009, 1:13 AM
The op could have explored the CA AW ID chart & interactive chart. It is on the top of every page here. Just sayin'.

thefinger
09-02-2009, 1:19 AM
I totally side with the OP on this one. Why do some calgunners insist on being know-it-all jerks who just rag on people's questions?

DanHuuN
09-02-2009, 1:26 AM
I totally side with the OP on this one. Why do some calgunners insist on being know-it-all jerks who just rag on people's questions?

First and foremost, It's not just Calgunners...dont hold calguns accountable as an entirety...other forums have such users as well

Honestly, you can take anything on here personal...everyone is behind a computer screen....

Expect nothing! It leads to disappointments.

We all understand the idea and the amount of unnecessarily ahole comments that come out....


GET OVER IT! and MOVE ON!

OR

CRY and WHINE about it everyday...



Actually, I'm going to the range tomorrow to shoot a massive amount of ammo to alleviate the stress I receive from Calgunners criticism and smart remarks..... :(

Richie Caketown
09-02-2009, 1:26 AM
so if Stoner invented the AR platform in the late 60s does that mean in 2010 the AR will be C&R :)



wishful thinking lol

DanHuuN
09-02-2009, 1:29 AM
so if Stoner invented the AR platform in the late 60s does that mean in 2010 the AR will be C&R :)



wishful thinking lol

HMMM....I sure hope so! hahahaha

Plisk
09-02-2009, 3:05 AM
so if Stoner invented the AR platform in the late 60s does that mean in 2010 the AR will be C&R :)



wishful thinking lol

What part of the guns makes it C&R though? Receiver, parts(like the barrel), or the design itself? Cuz if we wanted to argue specifics, he didn't first invent the AR-15. Or would that not matter since the M-16 type platform(essentionally identical) was designed in 1957. It could potetionally be already 50+ years old?

stix213
09-02-2009, 4:27 AM
so if Stoner invented the AR platform in the late 60s does that mean in 2010 the AR will be C&R :)



wishful thinking lol

Doesn't that also put original AK-47's in that category already for the last decade?

Quiet
09-02-2009, 4:32 AM
Go to this thread (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=82693), in order to learn about how to legally own a C&R SBR/C&R SBS/AOW in CA.

Also note, in CA, C&R SBRs/C&R SBSs/AOWs still need to conform with CA assault weapon laws.

So, a semi-auto centerfire C&R SBRs still needs to have an OAL of 30" or greater.
If not, you may have a legal SBR, but you'll have an illegal assault weapon.

B Strong
09-02-2009, 4:44 AM
From what I've read in the law it is a yes. But I was reading another thread on here, can't remember where, and somebody said an AR pistol is as close to an SBR as you'll get. I was gonna hire an attorney and go the trust route. Your thoughts.

I see that later you whipped out the google fu and read the bad news.

NFA weapons in California, outside of licensed SOT's, is a money and time consumimg hobby.

If you're Jacques Littlefield, go for it.

If you want to start a business manufacturing and selling NFA weapons, and you have the money to invest, go for it.

If you want a toy, establish a residence in an NFA friendly state and do it there - California isn't the place to be for NFA toys.

BTW, NFA weapons are not automaticlly added to the C. & R. list - they must be added due to the nature of their rarity, so garden variety M16's and AK's aren't going on, but original Costa Mesa AR180, AR15's & AR10's are, and although standard FAL's won't make the cut either, G series FAL's are already on the C. & R. list.

norcal-ar
09-02-2009, 5:39 AM
just get an ar/ak pistol its about the closest thing and less hassle.

shark92651
09-02-2009, 7:57 AM
No its ridiculous. Guess what guys. There are going to be new members to this board every freaking day. And you know what, questions are gonna get asked. All I see is three pages of posts. they end on 8/31. So there isn't much backreading I can do.

At the bottom of the thread listing is a drop-down where you can set a filter on how far back to show threads. You can go back a day, two weeks, a year, the beginning of time...

Yes the search sucks, but at least it doesn't suck as bad as ar15.com search. The search over there is truly pathetic, you can only search the thread title!

scc1909
09-02-2009, 8:00 AM
BTW, NFA weapons are not automaticlly added to the C. & R. list - they must be added due to the nature of their rarity, so garden variety M16's and AK's aren't going on, but original Costa Mesa AR180, AR15's & AR10's are, and although standard FAL's won't make the cut either, G series FAL's are already on the C. & R. list.
Do you happen to know if the Suomi M31 is on the list? IIRC they have a 12" barrel, but in any case I would really like to build a semi-auto SBR from one of the M31 parts kits one occasionally sees for sale.

CSACANNONEER
09-02-2009, 8:14 AM
I California isn't the place to be for NFA toys.

Really? I was under the impression that there were more NFA weapons in Ca. than any other state. There may not be as many owners of NFA weapons as some other stat
es have but, we have a lot of NFA weapons in the hands of very wealthy private collectors and a few in the hands of the average Joe Calgunner as well.


BTW, NFA weapons are not automaticlly added to the C. & R. list - they must be added due to the nature of their rarity, so garden variety M16's and AK's aren't going on, but original Costa Mesa AR180, AR15's & AR10's are, and although standard FAL's won't make the cut either, G series FAL's are already on the C. & R. list.

Not entirely true! I believe, ANY firearm over 50 years old is automatically a C&R per California law. That's what we are talking about here.

TangoCharlie
09-02-2009, 9:10 AM
What part of the guns makes it C&R though? Receiver, parts(like the barrel), or the design itself? Cuz if we wanted to argue specifics, he didn't first invent the AR-15. Or would that not matter since the M-16 type platform(essentionally identical) was designed in 1957. It could potetionally be already 50+ years old?

The receiver is the "firearm" and this is what needs to make it to 50 years to be C&R eligible for this purpose. The age of the design makes no difference, it's the particular gun itself that needs to be 50.

Interestingly, some of the really early commercial Colt semi-auto AR-15s are approaching the 50 year mark. This will be a coup for residents of other states with similar C&R limitations, but these will still be Category 1 AWs in CA (they're marked "Colt AR-15"), so of no use as a base guns for a C&R SBR build.

aplinker
09-02-2009, 10:23 AM
C&R SBR's are useless, though.

Anything that would be interesting (semi-auto) will become an assault weapon as soon as it's <30".

Now, if you had a registered AW C&R, then it could get interesting.

Don't take things so personally. ;)

evidens83
09-02-2009, 10:30 AM
No its ridiculous. Guess what guys. There are going to be new members to this board every freaking day. And you know what, questions are gonna get asked. All I see is three pages of posts. they end on 8/31. So there isn't much backreading I can do. So you know what, I start a new thread and ask a question. If one of you "Senior Members" sees it and thinks "oh no, not another one of these" then you just don't go in it. Works the same way on Arfcomm and any of the other forums I'm on. I'm not a rookie, just a rookie to this forum. So I'm not familiar. So shoot me. When I see another "whats the best lower" or "how do I install this" I either post helpful responses or pass over it. It ain't that hard.

Go to user cp up top and edit options. Nice to see you here DRis a wealth of OLL knowledge is here you just have to give this forum a chance ;)

CSACANNONEER
09-02-2009, 10:34 AM
The receiver is the "firearm" and this is what needs to make it to 50 years to be C&R eligible for this purpose. The age of the design makes no difference, it's the particular gun itself that needs to be 50.

Interestingly, some of the really early commercial Colt semi-auto AR-15s are approaching the 50 year mark. This will be a coup for residents of other states with similar C&R limitations, but these will still be Category 1 AWs in CA (they're marked "Colt AR-15"), so of no use as a base guns for a C&R SBR build.

C&R SBR's are useless, though.

Anything that would be interesting (semi-auto) will become an assault weapon as soon as it's <30".

Now, if you had a registered AW C&R, then it could get interesting.

Don't take things so personally. ;)

I bet there are a few early Colt ARs and +50 year old Tommy guns that are also CA RAWs. Also, if I'm correct, non-semi auto centerfire rifles with fixed mags do not need to be over 30" so, there are still some possibilities out there.

aplinker
09-02-2009, 1:04 PM
I bet there are a few early Colt ARs and +50 year old Tommy guns that are also CA RAWs. Also, if I'm correct, non-semi auto centerfire rifles with fixed mags do not need to be over 30" so, there are still some possibilities out there.

Yes, of course, but my point is that for anyone who's getting interested now, the best stuff is nullified by AW laws.

What blows is all those C&R 1911's & M1 carbines could have been SBR's.

technique
09-02-2009, 1:12 PM
Get some buddies together and rent an apartment in NV.

BillyGoatMachine
09-02-2009, 2:06 PM
Really dude. I mean fu kin really? This website is supposed to be a resource to California people looking for answers. I didn't know this. Its *** wipes like you who make me never want to come back to this website. If you have anything useful to post go ahead.

While I agree with you that :beatdeadhorse5: was not needed, calling people names isn't a great way to introduce yourself on the forum:rolleyes: It's much better to just ignore those kinds of posts and move on. Name calling brings out the ban sticks sometimes. I did it early on and barely missed the swing. Welcome, there are some great people on here.

ke6guj
09-02-2009, 2:16 PM
yup, name calling will often bring out the ban stick. But more importantly, people that may have been willing to help with either put you on ignore, or just decide to ignore the question.

aplinker
09-02-2009, 4:10 PM
yup, name calling will often bring out the ban stick. But more importantly, people that may have been willing to help with either put you on ignore, or just decide to ignore the question.

I'll throw my $0.02 in...

I think most of the time people overreact and assume malice when it's almost always just a jibe, at worst, more often an attempt at humor.

Words on a screen are often taken as harsh, especially by (for whatever reason) people new to forums.

Most the time, the two best reactions are: 1.) ask what's meant 2.) ignore.

Don't get wound up until it's clear someone is actually intending to be offensive - ie., they SAY they are. The worst thing you can do as someone new is to get wound up and try to act cool. The people who know stuff here can see through it.

For example, when I hit a board for fishing in Montana, I tell my experiences, ask questions, and make it clear I appreciate help - I also check my ego because I know **** about MT compared to them. Good people are glad to help, especially when they feel appreciated. :)

Lighten up, Francis. :)

B Strong
09-02-2009, 5:42 PM
Really? I was under the impression that there were more NFA weapons in Ca. than any other state. There may not be as many owners of NFA weapons as some other stat
es have but, we have a lot of NFA weapons in the hands of very wealthy private collectors and a few in the hands of the average Joe Calgunner as well.

IMO, there is a skewed statistic wrt registered NFA items in California.

Flashbangs are considered an NFA device, at least the ones that LE uses, and that skews the registration numbers for Califonia.

There are individuals holding SOT's in California, but compared to every state bordering California they're few and far between.


Not entirely true! I believe, ANY firearm over 50 years old is automatically a C&R per California law. That's what we are talking about here.

Inclusion on the C. & R list is determined by the feds, not the states.

California may well look at firearms over 50 years old as a C. & R., and there may be a work around for C. & R. SBR's and SBS's, but for the purposes of acquiring MG's, I doubt the 50 year C. & R. rule is going to get you very far in California.

In order for any MG to be legal for transfer, it would have to have been registered prior to or during the '68 Amnesty if foriegn made or imported, or prior to 5-19-86 for everything else.

Edit: There have been instances where individuals here registered NFA weapons or devices during the 1968 amnesty, and never had the state MG or SBR/SBS/DD permit. Because those Amnesty registration forms were and are consider confidential tax information, that information has never been provided to the state. It's entirely possible that there are individuals here that are now in compliance with federal law that are in violation of state law.

Bigballaizm
09-02-2009, 6:02 PM
Good info!! Thanx my brothas...

missiontrails
09-02-2009, 7:00 PM
Get some buddies together and rent an apartment in NV.

Or AZ.

missiontrails
09-02-2009, 7:03 PM
Maybe not the context for which it was used, but:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse5.gif

This is damn funny.

B Strong
09-02-2009, 7:04 PM
Do you happen to know if the Suomi M31 is on the list? IIRC they have a 12" barrel, but in any case I would really like to build a semi-auto SBR from one of the M31 parts kits one occasionally sees for sale.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/2001index.htm

ke6guj
09-02-2009, 7:14 PM
Do you happen to know if the Suomi M31 is on the list? IIRC they have a 12" barrel, but in any case I would really like to build a semi-auto SBR from one of the M31 parts kits one occasionally sees for sale.An original Full-auto Suomi would be a C&R, but making a new firearm with a new semi-auto receiver and an M31 parts kit would be a new firearm, not a C&R.

WeekendWarrior
09-02-2009, 7:39 PM
I agree with Dris on his point about making new members feel dumb for asking a question or even worse unwanted. If you're not contributing, no need make a mochery of the question. Im not saying thats what happened here, everyone loves the dead horse gif, but I think we should all be nicer in our responses to Noob questions. This site is only going to continue to grow, with new generations of calgunners who will be helping us win the good fight, no need to alienate them or make them feel stupid because they coulnt figure out where the information is on the site.

Hell, I didnt even notice the resources at the top of the page until I was at a post count of around 400. Everyone has to learn one way or another. I think it will benefit us all to help these peple get up to speed. Instead of just posting the dead horse gif, why not post the dead horse and a helpful link afterwords?

The more people we have the better. And because just about everything you could ever ask about has already been posted, we are bound to see dupe threads coming up as long as this site is in existance. Support our bretheren, as they are the future of 2a rights in California!

scc1909
09-02-2009, 7:41 PM
Thanks, B_Strong...I've bookmarked that link.

And thanks to ke6guj, as well. Being a total noob to this whole "roll yer own" area of building guns from kits, I overlooked the obvious.

If we ever move back to Tay-hoss, the M31 will be high on my list for an SBR.

RobG
09-02-2009, 9:22 PM
Really dude. I mean fu kin really? This website is supposed to be a resource to California people looking for answers. I didn't know this. Its *** wipes like you who make me never want to come back to this website. If you have anything useful to post go ahead.

If I were you, I would delete this ^ post and others containing your attempt at skirting the profanity filters. TRUST ME on this one:43:
Also, this site is MUCH more tame than others so try to "toughen up" and just ignore what irritates you.
Now about CA SBR's, etc. If it seems really awesome and cool, and you see it in NV, AZ, MT, and other free states, its probably not legal here:(:mad:

CSACANNONEER
09-03-2009, 8:28 AM
Really dude. I mean fu kin really? This website is supposed to be a resource to California people looking for answers. I didn't know this. Its *** wipes like you who make me never want to come back to this website. If you have anything useful to post go ahead.

yup, name calling will often bring out the ban stick. But more importantly, people that may have been willing to help with either put you on ignore, or just decide to ignore the question.

It looks like your name calling is working against you. You seem to have made a poor first impression on one of the leading experts on getting NFA items into Ca. I hope you and other newbees can learn from your mistake.

CSACANNONEER
09-03-2009, 8:41 AM
Inclusion on the C. & R list is determined by the feds, not the states.

California may well look at firearms over 50 years old as a C. & R., and there may be a work around for C. & R. SBR's and SBS's, but for the purposes of acquiring MG's, I doubt the 50 year C. & R. rule is going to get you very far in California.

In order for any MG to be legal for transfer, it would have to have been registered prior to or during the '68 Amnesty if foriegn made or imported, or prior to 5-19-86 for everything else.

Edit: There have been instances where individuals here registered NFA weapons or devices during the 1968 amnesty, and never had the state MG or SBR/SBS/DD permit. Because those Amnesty registration forms were and are consider confidential tax information, that information has never been provided to the state. It's entirely possible that there are individuals here that are now in compliance with federal law that are in violation of state law.


I think we are both on the same page just reading different paragraphs. I understand how the federal C&R works but, this thread is refering to SBRs in California. So, the Caliornia definition of C&R comes into play since, Califoria prohibits SBRs but, has an exemption for C&R guns and you do not need a state SBR permit for them! The same does not apply to MGs though. As far as NFA items in Ca., I know of some rather large MG collections in private hands in this state. I'm not positive that my info is 100% current though. I know some of these collectors could have passed away in the last few years and their collection could have been sold.

Beelzy
09-03-2009, 9:36 AM
LOL!!!

Everytime I read one of these threads I have to laugh about the Search
Feature remarks.

Dudes..........it is very hard to work with.

Quicker to just ask and take all the "beating a dead horse" emoitcons.

Also, some folks who like Sarcasm need to remember to use the Freaking Smilie for it.
This one: :p Not this one, it's rude: :sarcasm:

B Strong
09-03-2009, 12:12 PM
I think we are both on the same page just reading different paragraphs. I understand how the federal C&R works but, this thread is refering to SBRs in California. So, the Caliornia definition of C&R comes into play since, Califoria prohibits SBRs but, has an exemption for C&R guns and you do not need a state SBR permit for them! The same does not apply to MGs though. As far as NFA items in Ca., I know of some rather large MG collections in private hands in this state. I'm not positive that my info is 100% current though. I know some of these collectors could have passed away in the last few years and their collection could have been sold.

We're on the same page, but somebody mentioned AK's and AR15 (full-auto) going C. & R.