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g21owner
09-01-2009, 6:58 PM
Hey Guys,

First off let me introduce myself. My name is Adam and I live in Apple Valley,CA. I've been lurking here for a while and I think the site is awesome.
I own a few firearms, a Glock 21, a type 38 Japanese Arisaka, and a Taurus model 85 .38. I normally hang out on Glock Talk, I'm sure some of you do as well.


Ok, now that were formally introduced I have a question regarding the transportation of a handgun. I drive a GMC Sierra and need to know if I can install a gunsafe in the console. Now I know that the law says it cannot be stored in a glovebox or center console but technically the console is the back part of the middle seat.(confused yet:confused:) Here is a pic of exactly what Im talking about.
http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr52/g21owner/sierra.jpg

So can I?

Librarian
09-01-2009, 7:31 PM
Hey Guys,

First off let me introduce myself. My name is Adam and I live in Apple Valley,CA. I've been lurking here for a while and I think the site is awesome.
I own a few firearms, a Glock 21, a type 38 Japanese Arisaka, and a Taurus model 85 .38. I normally hang out on Glock Talk, I'm sure some of you do as well.


Ok, now that were formally introduced I have a question regarding the transportation of a handgun. I drive a GMC Sierra and need to know if I can install a gunsafe in the console. Now I know that the law says it cannot be stored in a glovebox or center console but technically the console is the back part of the middle seat.(confused yet:confused:) Here is a pic of exactly what Im talking about.
http://i469.photobucket.com/albums/rr52/g21owner/sierra.jpg

So can I?

You've poked into a soft spot.

A removable gun case/safe merely placed in that console is clearly OK.

Where things become unclear is when the case/safe is permanently mounted.

Does that then become a 'utility compartment'? We don't know, but if it DOES, that's illegal.

My own unsupported opinion is no, it doesn't become a 'utility compartment'. AFAIK that has not been tested in court.

g21owner
09-01-2009, 7:55 PM
So how about mounted with a cable lock thus not permanently mounted?

HondaMasterTech
09-01-2009, 8:57 PM
So how about mounted with a cable lock thus not permanently mounted?

I would interpret the law to say that the utility compartment alone is illegal. A locked container within an existing container, ok. But I am not a lawyer, therefore my gun goes in a locked container within my locked trunk.

locosway
09-01-2009, 8:59 PM
I worry about LUCC myself because it just takes someone 15 seconds to break the window and find the case under the seat. I end up chaining the case to the seat when I leave, but it's a plastic case so there's no rear protection.

I wanted to permanently install a handgun compartment in my truck, but it's a huge gray area in the law, which really blows.

It's almost like they want you to have your guns stolen.

HondaMasterTech
09-01-2009, 9:07 PM
I worry about LUCC myself because it just takes someone 15 seconds to break the window and find the case under the seat. I end up chaining the case to the seat when I leave, but it's a plastic case so there's no rear protection.

I wanted to permanently install a handgun compartment in my truck, but it's a huge gray area in the law, which really blows.

It's almost like they want you to have your guns stolen.

Our guns would be much more secure if we could CARRY them on our person. ;)

g21owner
09-01-2009, 9:07 PM
I'm thinking of stopping by the local police station and just asking one of the officers. But then again with my luck I'll get one who is extremely anti and completely shoots down my options.

g21owner
09-01-2009, 9:10 PM
Our guns would be much more secure if we could CARRY them on our person. ;)

WHOA!! Hold on just a sec. Who told you it was ok to use common sense in my thread?:D

HondaMasterTech
09-01-2009, 9:16 PM
WHOA!! Hold on just a sec. Who told you it was ok to use common sense in my thread?:D

My bad. Started to use common sense there...

locosway
09-01-2009, 9:16 PM
I'm thinking of stopping by the local police station and just asking one of the officers. But then again with my luck I'll get one who is extremely anti and completely shoots down my options.

I wouldn't do that for many reasons.

One, you don't need to be on their radar.

Two, they don't need to know the law and often don't.

Three, they like to scare people into compliance.

Four, they can arrest you for just about anything without repercussions.

HondaMasterTech
09-01-2009, 9:17 PM
I'm thinking of stopping by the local police station and just asking one of the officers. But then again with my luck I'll get one who is extremely anti and completely shoots down my options.

Or end up with one who has his own incorrect interpretation of the law. I'd call a firearms lawyer.

TaxAnnihilator
09-01-2009, 9:25 PM
I like to start with the basic instructions that the jury will be read:

CALCRIM 2521: Carrying Concealed Firearm Within Vehicle

ELEMENTS:
To prove that the defendant is guilty of this crime, the People must prove that:

1. The defendant carried within a vehicle a firearm capable of being concealed on the person;

2. The defendant knew the firearm was in the vehicle;

3. The firearm was substantially concealed within the vehicle;

AND

4. The vehicle was under the defendant's control or direction.

DEFENSE:

[The defendant did not unlawfully carry a concealed firearm with in a vehicle if [12026.1 exception added below]. The People have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant unlawfully carried a concealed firearm within a vehicle. If the People have not met this burden, you must find the defendant not guilty of this crime.]

EXCEPTION THAT CREATES DEFENSE:

Cal Pen Code 12026.1
(a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not prohibited by state or federal law from possessing, receiving, owning, or purchasing a firearm, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:

(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.

UTILITY COMPARTMENT:

Statutory terms are to be understood in their ordinary and usual meanings unless the context indicates otherwise. (Woosley v. State of California (1992) 3 Cal. 4th 758, 775)

I cannot find any cases (yet) that define a utility compartment as back seat console as you describe/picture. A zealous DA may wish to make an example of you.

You've poked into a soft spot.

A removable gun case/safe merely placed in that console is clearly OK.

Where things become unclear is when the case/safe is permanently mounted.

Does that then become a 'utility compartment'? We don't know, but if it DOES, that's illegal.

My own unsupported opinion is no, it doesn't become a 'utility compartment'. AFAIK that has not been tested in court.

g21owner
09-01-2009, 9:34 PM
Or end up with one who has his own incorrect interpretation of the law. I'd call a firearms lawyer.

Can you recommend one? Preferably in San Bernardino County

ZRX61
09-01-2009, 10:26 PM
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment.
So, In a locked container on the passenger seat.. with the key in the lock & 2 or 3 full mags in the same container is OK?

lorax3
09-01-2009, 10:34 PM
So, In a locked container on the passenger seat.. with the key in the lock & 2 or 3 full mags in the same container is OK?

Yes. As long as the gun itself is not loaded (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660).

To the OP: If you can get advice from a firearm attorney, that is great. Although as others have said I would avoid having the box in any way attached to the vehicle in order to avoid the 'utility box' interpretation.

Option #2

Perhaps however, a box in a box. A locked box inside the utility box. Seems like that would be okay.
As although the gun is IN a glove box, it is still exempted as it is in a separate locked container. This would provide more security to your gun when you are not in the car, but less accessibility and should avoid the utility box issue.

Heh, sounds legal. Librarian? :D

locosway
09-01-2009, 10:35 PM
So, In a locked container on the passenger seat.. with the key in the lock & 2 or 3 full mags in the same container is OK?

That's how I roll...

Librarian
09-01-2009, 11:33 PM
Yes. As long as the gun itself is not loaded (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=103660).

To the OP: If you can get advice from a firearm attorney, that is great. Although as others have said I would avoid having the box in any way attached to the vehicle in order to avoid the 'utility box' interpretation.

Option #2

Perhaps however, a box in a box. A locked box inside the utility box. Seems like that would be okay.
As although the gun is IN a glove box, it is still exempted as it is in a separate locked container. This would provide more security to your gun when you are not in the car, but less accessibility and should avoid the utility box issue.

Heh, sounds legal. Librarian? :D

Box in a box reads legal to me; shouldn't have any confusion with 'utility compartment' that way, any more than a locked case in the trunk would be.

I always prefer the separate, mobile box, because those are useful for moving the gun when not in a vehicle.

But carry on one's person would, indeed, usually be better.

Mstrty
09-01-2009, 11:40 PM
So, In a locked container on the passenger seat.. with the key in the lock & 2 or 3 full mags in the same container is OK?

Without giving any legal advice here is my opinion.

"With the Key in the lock" it would then no longer be a lock IMO. It would now just be just a latch. You will be OK if Im on your Jury but I wouldn't push it.
Also do they have one of those for the NEW body style Chevy with a center console? Very Cool

locosway
09-01-2009, 11:42 PM
Without giving any legal advice here is my opinion.

"With the Key in the lock" it would then no no longer be a lock IMO. It would now just be just a latch. You will be OK if Im on your Jury but I wouldn't push it.

Per the law, that is untrue. A key in a lock that is locked is not a latch. It's still a lock, and it's still locked.

g21owner
09-01-2009, 11:48 PM
Without giving any legal advice here is my opinion.

"With the Key in the lock" it would then no longer be a lock IMO. It would now just be just a latch. You will be OK if Im on your Jury but I wouldn't push it.
Also do they have one of those for the NEW body style Chevy with a center console? Very Cool

Search for your vehiclehttp://www.consolevault.com/

locosway
09-01-2009, 11:54 PM
According to that site I have even more room under the middle seat???

*runs out to the truck to check*

locosway
09-01-2009, 11:59 PM
Yeah, no... Their site is wrong for my truck...

Mstrty
09-02-2009, 12:03 AM
Per the law, that is untrue. A key in a lock that is locked is not a latch. It's still a lock, and it's still locked.

I don't see it that way. I don't consider my child's 100% plastic barbie playhouse lock a lock even though it is sold as a lock. Just because some advertising department calls it a lock doesn't make it a lock as defined by?

12026.1(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

Just because you call it a lock doesn't make it a lock.

This is just my opinion and I realize this is posted in a legal area so I will allow the lawyers to define law here and not me.

locosway
09-02-2009, 12:12 AM
If I have a master lock, that's made from hardened metal, and it's locked, how is it no longer a lock because there is a key in it?

I can see where you might be worried, but having a key in a lock doesn't make it a latch.

What about biometric security? Is it not really a lock either?

Mstrty
09-02-2009, 12:29 AM
If I have a master lock, that's made from hardened metal, and it's locked, how is it no longer a lock because there is a key in it?

I can see where you might be worried, but having a key in a lock doesn't make it a latch.

What about biometric security? Is it not really a lock either?

IMO a biometric lock is only a lock when your finger is not left in it. Your finger is the key and if you override its ability to "lock" then it is no longer a lock its just a latch with your finger attached. That's the way I see it. I guess we might need some case law on this to see how a court defines it. A lock by its definition is only a lock when it requires a code to deactivate its activation. If the key is left in you take away the code. I know we are splitting hairs here but isn't that why we have a place like this to discuss these things. I need Penal code on the definition of a locking device. I don't think it exists. It will need to be argued in court. Like I have already posted Any CalGun member who find themselves defending themselves on firearms will hope I'm on their jury. The jury has the greatest power to change any law. :)

Southwest Chuck
09-02-2009, 1:26 AM
If I have a master lock, that's made from hardened metal, and it's locked, how is it no longer a lock because there is a key in it?

I can see where you might be worried, but having a key in a lock doesn't make it a latch.

What about biometric security? Is it not really a lock either?

Ok, as a Locksmith for 26 years, I've got to chime in here. When the proper key is inserted into a lock ,all the tumblers line up and creates a shear line that enables the key to be turned. At the point the key is inserted, the lock is unlocked. It may not be open, but it is unlocked. Your confusing unlocking a lock as opposed to opening a lock. There is a difference. Let's take another example. I have two lock boxes for my pistols. One has an electronic push button combination lock. The other has a mechanical push button lock. Say I enter the combination on the mechanical lock box. At that point the box is unlocked. I can wait 3 minutes or three weeks to turn the knob and open the box, But the box is UNLOCKED ! Punching in the combination is just like inserting a key in a padlock. Now let's look at the Electronic lock. When I punch the combination into this lock it also becomes unlocked. However, If I don't turn the knob and open the box within 5 seconds, it automatically RE-LOCKS ! That simple re-locking action is akin to pulling the key out of a key lock. To make a lock box or container locked, the key cannot be in the lock. If it is, then it's just a fancy latch.

I'll leave you with this... We all have front doors on our homes (at least I hope so :D) Say that's your container. Next, we all have locks on our doors too. When we go to bed, are we content in the knowledge that we have a lock on the door? Or are we going to take that extra measure and actually lock that lock before we hit the hay? Or how about this one: You lock your front door for the evening. You feel safe. Would you feel the same way if you knew you had left your keys in the lock so anyone could walk up and open your door? Would you really consider that lock LOCKED? Well it is isn't it? Yes, but the key is in it and thus, is un-locked. If I still don't have you convinced, try the above exercise and see how well you sleep tonight.
As for biometrics, it's basically the same as the electronic combo lock described above. Thumb-print un-locks it. If you don't open it, the lock re-locks !!! Again, your confusing locking and opening functions.

I could go on and on, But I think I've made my point. I don't want anyone to get in trouble or go to jail because of an un-locked container.:( Use your best judgment. Knowledge is power. Use it wisely

I just thought of one other example. Say I have a California legal AR-15 with a BB. If I put the tool(think key) in to release the magazine and taped it in place (think key inserted into a lock) is it still legal? Is that mag still "locked" in place?

pnkssbtz
09-02-2009, 3:02 AM
What is a "Glove Box" and what is a "Utility Compartment"?


My car doesn't have any "glove box" what it does have is a locking compartment behind the passenger seat.

You have to fold the passenger seat down in order to get at it however.

(2 Seater Nissan 350z).


Is this a utility compartment or a glove box or other?

dantodd
09-02-2009, 3:09 AM
Is this a utility compartment or a glove box or other?

You can be fairly confident that an OEM locking compartment that was factory installed is probably going to be ruled a utility compartment.

locosway
09-02-2009, 7:05 AM
I'm pretty sure Gene or someone else said having the key in the lock was ok, but I can't find where they said that, so now I'm questioning my sanity...

Mstrty
09-02-2009, 8:27 AM
I'm pretty sure Gene or someone else said having the key in the lock was ok, but I can't find where they said that, so now I'm questioning my sanity...

Im still curious what the law says "what is locked". It might be one of those things that has to be litigated before we have the view of the court.

alex00
09-02-2009, 8:38 AM
Ok, as a Locksmith for 26 years, I've got to chime in here. When the proper key is inserted into a lock ,all the tumblers line up and creates a shear line that enables the key to be turned. At the point the key is inserted, the lock is unlocked.

So having the key inserted partially would negate this condition, rendering the container still locked?

Glock22Fan
09-02-2009, 9:05 AM
So having the key inserted partially would negate this condition, rendering the container still locked?

I may not be a locksmith, but what Chuck says is true for a cylinder lock, but untrue for the standard padlock, which I believe is called a warded lock. Until the key is turned, the warded lock remains locked.

Does this matter?

In my view, what matters is what the D.A. can sell to a jury. We're all guessing on this.

The p.c. doesn't say, "With a locked lock on it with no key," so whether having a key in the lock is legal is going to depend totally on interpretation.

dantodd
09-02-2009, 10:28 AM
Sometimes you just have to use common sense. You can be pretty confident that a DA will think it is not locked and will try to prosecute you. If this is the case what will the only important thing is what 12 people (who are not 2A activists) in the jury box will think.

I'm all for thinking outside of the box and finding ways that we can work within the confines of CA law to exercise our second amendment rights. But twisting logic and common sense is NOT the best avenue.

Southwest Chuck
09-02-2009, 11:15 AM
So having the key inserted partially would negate this condition, rendering the container still locked?

Technically, yes

Southwest Chuck
09-02-2009, 11:33 AM
I may not be a locksmith, but what Chuck says is true for a cylinder lock, but untrue for the standard padlock, which I believe is called a warded lock. Until the key is turned, the warded lock remains locked.

Yes and no.

The yes part: A warded lock does not contain tumblers. It has "obstructions" called wards. The key has to be cut on both sides to bypass these wards. Think skeleton key. This is one of the oldest types of master padlocks, and yes they still make them, but are not very secure and easily bypassed. Having a key inserted does not unlock the mechanism, technically. But you're playing with fire here, IMO. With the key inserted, it is ready to open without any other "unlocking action".

The no part: "but untrue for the standard padlock" Probably 99% of the padlocks out there are Pin tumbler padlocks. There are very few warded padlocks in use since they are so inferior to a standard pin tumbler padlock. So, your statement is incorrect in relationship to a "standard padlock".

Southwest Chuck
09-02-2009, 11:37 AM
Sometimes you just have to use common sense. You can be pretty confident that a DA will think it is not locked and will try to prosecute you. If this is the case what will the only important thing is what 12 people (who are not 2A activists) in the jury box will think.

I'm all for thinking outside of the box and finding ways that we can work within the confines of CA law to exercise our second amendment rights. But twisting logic and common sense is NOT the best avenue.

X's a million!! Just be careful out there!

Librarian
09-02-2009, 11:39 AM
Sometimes you just have to use common sense.

...

But twisting logic and common sense is NOT the best avenue.

I said this someplace else recently: at some point we have to speak English.

Unless the Legislature offers its own definition of a term, ordinary usage, dictionary usage is what you should presume. That's one of the observations of People v Clark - that's how the court reasoned to its ruling on "loaded".

So, questions like 'what is locked' really should send you running to your Webster's rather than your Blackstone.

'What is a utility compartment', OTOH, leaves us all mostly hanging. Nothing in any owners manual of any vehicle I have owned has called any lockable space a 'utility compartment', so I honestly don't know what a 'utility compartment' is.

'Glove compartment' may be suffering from historical irrelevance. For me, it's a compartment, with a door, in the dash on the passenger side of the vehicle - but I'm pretty sure I've never kept gloves in one.

It's true that a court somewhere may decide to define something in a law differently from ordinary usage where the legislature has made no definition of its own. But it is at best paralyzing to wait for every noun to have an established legal definition. Don't over think this stuff.

Flopper
09-02-2009, 11:51 AM
I know this doesn't directly answer the question, but. . .

Isn't the OP in a de facto Shall Issue county? Why not just get a CCW?

dantodd
09-02-2009, 11:58 AM
'Glove compartment' may be suffering from historical irrelevance. For me, it's a compartment, with a door, in the dash on the passenger side of the vehicle - but I'm pretty sure I've never kept gloves in one.


Having lived in Michigan I can say that I have used a "glove compartment" for glove storage. I also assume that dolts who wear "driving gloves" in their Porsche's on the freeway also store them in the "glove compartment."

Southwest Chuck
09-02-2009, 12:00 PM
Just for the record, I have not tried to interpret the law on this. That's for a Judge and Jury. I will say this, however. If I or any other competent locksmith were called as an expert witness for the prosecution, I would have to testify to the the facts as I've stated them here. That doesn't bode well with someone caught with a key inserted into a stored, locked container (and, yes, it's a redundant, mutually exclusive statement). :o

It only takes one DA to make an example of you. Be careful out there. The waters can be murky. Use good, common sense judgment.:boat:

Glock22Fan
09-02-2009, 12:07 PM
Yes and no.

The yes part: A warded lock does not contain tumblers. It has "obstructions" called wards. The key has to be cut on both sides to bypass these wards. Think skeleton key. This is one of the oldest types of master padlocks, and yes they still make them, but are not very secure and easily bypassed. Having a key inserted does not unlock the mechanism, technically. But you're playing with fire here, IMO. With the key inserted, it is ready to open without any other "unlocking action".

The no part: "but untrue for the standard padlock" Probably 99% of the padlocks out there are Pin tumbler padlocks. There are very few warded padlocks in use since they are so inferior to a standard pin tumbler padlock. So, your statement is incorrect in relationship to a "standard padlock".

Just for the record, I have not tried to interpret the law on this. That's for a Judge and Jury. I will say this, however. If I or any other competent locksmith were called as an expert witness for the prosecution, I would have to testify to the the facts as I've stated them here. That doesn't bode well with someone caught with a key inserted into a stored, locked container (and, yes, it's a redundant, mutually exclusive statement). :o

It only takes one DA to make an example of you. Be careful out there. The waters can be murky. Use good, common sense judgment.:boat:


I have to say, I have a dozen or more padlocks in common use. They are a mixture of combo locks and warded locks. I know cylinder locks may be more secure (but even these can be "bumped" in a few seconds), but I don't own a single one of them and can't remember ever seeing one on a gun carrying case (which is what we are talking of here). I don't see the point in using more expensive locks on gun cases that can often be opened with just a prybar or sharp knife.

Maybe though I am mistaking the terminology. My locks that I call warded locks are not cylinder locks. I believe that only cylinder locks have tumblers. Maybe my locks are some third kind, but even so they don't have tumblers and remain locked until the key is turned (which moves some kind of internal bolt).

Added: Masterlocks (http://www.masterlocks.com/show_cat.asp?Start=0&Offset=10)have two pages of warded locks, of the type I'm referring to here.

I do agree with your last sentence.

Southwest Chuck
09-02-2009, 12:08 PM
I said this someplace else recently: at some point we have to speak English.

Unless the Legislature offers its own definition of a term, ordinary usage, dictionary usage is what you should presume. That's one of the observations of People v Clark - that's how the court reasoned to its ruling on "loaded".


To me, having a key inserted into a lock is like having one in the chamber. Can't have it both ways. There's one in the chamber or there isn't. It's locked or it's unlocked. Forget about whether it's open or not.

Glock22Fan
09-02-2009, 12:22 PM
To me, having a key inserted into a lock is like having one in the chamber. Can't have it both ways. There's one in the chamber or there isn't. It's locked or it's unlocked. Forget about whether it's open or not.

Agree with you there, I just think that your statement "When the proper key is inserted into a lock, all the tumblers line up and creates a shear line that enables the key to be turned. At the point the key is inserted, the lock is unlocked." ignores a lot of padlocks in common use and that your later attempt to recover with "Probably 99% of the padlocks out there are Pin tumbler padlocks." is, in my experience, a gross exaggeration.

Southwest Chuck
09-02-2009, 12:55 PM
I have to say, I have a dozen or more padlocks in common use. They are a mixture of combo locks and warded locks. I know cylinder locks may be more secure (but even these can be "bumped" in a few seconds), but I don't own a single one of them and can't remember ever seeing one on a gun carrying case (which is what we are talking of here).

Maybe though I am mistaking the terminology. My locks that I call warded locks are not cylinder locks. I believe that only cylinder locks have tumblers. Maybe my locks are some third kind, but even so they don't have tumblers and remain locked until the key is turned.

I do agree with your last sentence.

I think the problem here is mistaken terminology (or operational concepts) as you say. Here is an image of a warded padlock:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bKcBCU7xL._SL500_AA280_.jpg

Here is an image of a pin tumbler padlock:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B00004Y8CK/sr=1-8/qid=1251919397/ref=dp_image_text_0?ie=UTF8&n=228013&s=hi&qid=1251919397&sr=1-8

Can you see the difference in the keys? I would be very surprised if all of your keyed padlocks are warded. In any event, you may commonly use warded padlocks. That however is different that them being in common use any more.

You could be mistaking a wafer tumbler lock for a warded lock. There are wafer tumbler padlocks and cam locks out there. Their function basically the same as pin tumbler locks except they use flat wafers instead of round tumblers.

Also, technically, most all locks are warded in some way. There are thousands of different "Keyways" in use today. The broaching in the keyway of the cylinder must match the broaching on the key (oppositely, of coarse). This broaching (or milling) is technically a ward cut preventing the wrong key from entering the lock. A ward is some type of physical barrier. So in that context you can say warded locks are in common use. Except those types of wards do not have anything to do with the mechanical function of the lock.

Hope that helps. We may just have to agree to disagree,though. :)

Southwest Chuck
09-02-2009, 1:14 PM
Maybe though I am mistaking the terminology. My locks that I call warded locks are not cylinder locks. I believe that only cylinder locks have tumblers. Maybe my locks are some third kind, but even so they don't have tumblers and remain locked until the key is turned (which moves some kind of internal bolt).

Wrong. it doesn't remain locked. It remains closed. you turn the key to open it. Sorry you don't understand the concept.

And oh, I've always wanted to be called Gross!:D

We can disagree, that's ok. I've said my piece. Everyone makes there own judgments. You can make yours. I've just given my opinions based on my years of experience. You can think my opinion and thoughts are invalid. Other's will make up there own minds.

Good luck!

g21owner
09-02-2009, 1:36 PM
I know this doesn't directly answer the question, but. . .

Isn't the OP in a de facto Shall Issue county? Why not just get a CCW?

Oh believe me, I would love to have a CCW but one intsy tintsy problem, I am not 21:(

lorax3
09-02-2009, 2:21 PM
Oh believe me, I would love to have a CCW but one intsy tintsy problem, I am not 21:(

I do not see any restrictions that require you to be 21 to have a CCW. It appears the only age limit would be 18, since that is the legal age to own a handgun.

That is for CA anyway, IIRC you need to be 21 for a Utah non-resident permit.

Big Jake
09-02-2009, 4:02 PM
Since you live in San Bernardino County you should apply for your ccw. Your county is ccw friendly and if you get your ccw then all of this stuff about lock boxes, etc. will be irrelevent!

g21owner
09-02-2009, 4:24 PM
I do not see any restrictions that require you to be 21 to have a CCW. It appears the only age limit would be 18, since that is the legal age to own a handgun.

That is for CA anyway, IIRC you need to be 21 for a Utah non-resident permit.

Really? If what you guys say is true then I'm applying ASAP. But I thought you had to have a good cause? I really dont other than self defense, but that doesnt cut it does it?

Southwest Chuck
09-02-2009, 4:44 PM
Agree with you there, I just think that your statement "When the proper key is inserted into a lock, all the tumblers line up and creates a shear line that enables the key to be turned. At the point the key is inserted, the lock is unlocked." ignores a lot of padlocks in common use and that your later attempt to recover with "Probably 99% of the padlocks out there are Pin tumbler padlocks." is, in my experience, a gross exaggeration.

I didn't ignore anything . Read the bolded text above. That "shear line" part of the statement above applies to warded locks also. In that type of lock, a shear line is created when the key is inserted and the wards and matching cuts of the key line up. It is a different type of shear line, but a shear line none the less.

Secondly, I didn't try to recover from anything. I stand by my statement. Let me put it a different way. The overwhelmingly vast majority of padlocks out there today, are pin tumbler padlocks. Is that better? If you think that statement is a "gross exaggeration", well, I'll just throw up my hands and let you have the last word on it.

Added: Masterlocks have two pages of warded locks, of the type I'm referring to here.

Let's not exagerate, here (2 Pages ? ). There are only four basic lock models there. The prefixes and suffixed only designate options, such as keyed alike, shackle length, pack quantity, fancy banding, etc. Oh, and just for clarity, the page you linked to shows all pin tumbler locks. Here's a link to Master's Warded padlock pages http://www.masterlocks.com/show_cat.asp?cat=Warded%20Padlocks

Anyway, it seems like you're taking this way to personally. As a point of fact, If you look at my previous posts, I did say warded padlocks were still made. So whats your point? It's all in your interpretation of the term "common usage". I don't consider them in common usage any more, based on my experience over the years. If common usage is defined as still being manufactured, then yes you're right, they are in common usage just because they are still made and sold. Debate ended. I'm thirsty. Here's to ya :cheers2:

lorax3
09-02-2009, 4:44 PM
Really? If what you guys say is true then I'm applying ASAP. But I thought you had to have a good cause? I really dont other than self defense, but that doesnt cut it does it?

No it does not. Let me reiterate. SELF DEFENSE IS NOT A GOOD CASUE. :) (at least in terms of a may issue CA CCW app anyway)

Unless you are a legitimate business owner who carries large sums of money to the bank or you are in bed with the sheriff I would not apply.

Do a search and you can see how difficult it is to get a CCW, (unless you are in the few privileged counties).

For one, denied CCW apps look bad on your record should you ever work in the criminal justice or LEO field.

If you are still going to apply, think long and hard about your good cause. (no phun intended)

Head over to a CCW board and find people in your area or those who may have a good cause that also fits for you.

dantodd
09-02-2009, 5:21 PM
For one, denied CCW apps look bad on your record should you ever work in the criminal justice or LEO field.


Why would you say that?

Mstrty
09-02-2009, 7:27 PM
No it does not. Let me reiterate. SELF DEFENSE IS NOT A GOOD CASUE. :) (at least in terms of a may issue CA CCW app anyway)

Unless you are a legitimate business owner who carries large sums of money to the bank or you are in bed with the sheriff I would not apply.



What sheriff give a CCW permit to someone to protect something that should be insured? A firearm in California can only be use to protect a life never to protect money. This is how your application hits the trash can before being fully read. The argument of My life is in danger cause I have large sums of money died in 1972. This is 2009 you can only get one if you are in bed with the sheriff dept. that part is correct. :D