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CmpsdNoMore
09-01-2009, 5:23 PM
I just saw a short segment on the channel 10 news while walking through the TV room. They interviewed a few of the people UOCing, showed the police officers checking their firearms and interviewed a couple people with negative views on UOC.

I was wondering if they people UOCing were on here or if anyone knows if the people doing the protests were related with a different group.

8-Ball
09-01-2009, 5:55 PM
There was a thread on a local up there organizing one...

The MinuteMen are not part of it and I don't think the guy is a member here...

CitaDeL
09-01-2009, 6:43 PM
So just how do we put a stop to this? I understood that Calguns was recommending UOC'rs to stand down. In spite of the moritorium placed by leadership here there is UOC activity ongoing with media coverage.

I think I would suggest our Calguns Media contact issue a press release about the practice of unloaded open carry so that we could at least appear to be an authority on the topic when it garners media attention. Perhaps with this effort we could get these folks under our tent to operate with a strategic goal in mind.

CmpsdNoMore
09-01-2009, 7:02 PM
That was one of the reasons why I posted about it here. I was aware that most of the people who are the forefront of UOCing here have said they were standing down on it for the time being while certain things get resolved.

pullnshoot25
09-01-2009, 7:05 PM
I am familiar with this guy (been in email contact) and I tried to dissuade him from holding this event while the legislature is still in session, from garnering media attention and the whole host of other problems he seems to have invited. He doesn't seem to care too much about the big picture.

They also pulled their own guns out for their 12031 checks, which I explicitly tell everyone NOT to do. Without the context of the 12031 check, I am certain that it just looked dandy on the news (didn't see it, I was studying)

pullnshoot25
09-01-2009, 7:07 PM
There was a thread on a local up there organizing one...

The MinuteMen are not part of it and I don't think the guy is a member here...

SDMM was not involved in this one, though they did observe from a distance to make sure things went smoothly and whatnot.

CitaDeL
09-01-2009, 7:53 PM
I am familiar with this guy (been in email contact) and I tried to dissuade him from holding this event while the legislature is still in session, from garnering media attention and the whole host of other problems he seems to have invited. He doesn't seem to care too much about the big picture.

They also pulled their own guns out for their 12031 checks, which I explicitly tell everyone NOT to do. Without the context of the 12031 check, I am certain that it just looked dandy on the news (didn't see it, I was studying)

It is not your fault Nate. It is beyond your power to inhibit others actions.

On the other hand, Calguns should be the 'go to' for all 2A issues. Since media is not seeking Calguns out, Calguns should use moments like this to seek media out until media is trained to go to Calguns for the lowdown on 2A issues. Any plans on cooridinating a media arm? If not, I think the time is now.

jnojr
09-01-2009, 7:57 PM
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/sep/01/bn01guns-open-carry/?northcounty

My email to the Escondido City Council:

If the Escondido City Council is opposed to law-abiding citizens openly and legally carrying sidearms, it has a remedy available... instruct the Chief of Police to begin issuing permits to carry concealed firearms to all Escondido residents who apply and are eligible. At present, since this power has been ceded to a Sheriff's Department that refuses to recognize personal protection or a Constitutional right as "good cause", gun owners have no alternative but to carry openly. Everyone wins... Escondido residents have their rights respected, and everyone else can go about in blissful ignorance. Escondido already has thousands of gang members who carry guns without permits... it's quite clear that gun laws only restrain the law-abiding.

pullnshoot25
09-01-2009, 8:19 PM
Oh great, farmers markets in Escondido and San Marcos AND Cruisin' Grand? BIG MISTAKES and BAD IDEAS, those are both areas laden with 626.9 issues.

He will figure it out soon enough, hopefully. I am getting pretty tired of advising him.

CitaDeL
09-01-2009, 8:25 PM
Oh great, farmers markets in Escondido and San Marcos AND Cruisin' Grand? BIG MISTAKES and BAD IDEAS, those are both areas laden with 626.9 issues.

He will figure it out soon enough, hopefully. I am getting pretty tired of advising him.

Now you know how I feel. We musn't tire of giving good counsel though. That is the essential quality of leadership we must never abandon.

pullnshoot25
09-01-2009, 8:43 PM
Now you know how I feel. We musn't tire of giving good counsel though. That is the essential quality of leadership we must never abandon.

PM in progress.

KylaGWolf
09-01-2009, 8:45 PM
I just saw a short segment on the channel 10 news while walking through the TV room. They interviewed a few of the people UOCing, showed the police officers checking their firearms and interviewed a couple people with negative views on UOC.

I was wondering if they people UOCing were on here or if anyone knows if the people doing the protests were related with a different group.

As far as I know the gentleman that organized this open carry group has nothing to do with calguns.

locosway
09-01-2009, 8:46 PM
Oh great, farmers markets in Escondido and San Marcos AND Cruisin' Grand? BIG MISTAKES and BAD IDEAS, those are both areas laden with 626.9 issues.

He will figure it out soon enough, hopefully. I am getting pretty tired of advising him.

626.9 is a real problem, not for him, but for everyone else.

"Man with gun and ammo at children's elementary school"

"Police arrest gun nut with loaded firearm at a local school"

Want to see the school zone increased exponentially?

KylaGWolf
09-01-2009, 8:50 PM
Oh great, farmers markets in Escondido and San Marcos AND Cruisin' Grand? BIG MISTAKES and BAD IDEAS, those are both areas laden with 626.9 issues.

He will figure it out soon enough, hopefully. I am getting pretty tired of advising him.

Nate tell the guy point blank its a bad idea and tell him EXACTLY why. Second the guy was stupid enough to tell the press of it so now the police know and you can about guess where they will be and nail him and the rest of his group to the wall when it happens and you can also bet they WILL have the press there for the wonderful photo op in the process. I told you the other night we need to lasso and crazy glue the ropes on him to make him stop. So where do I drag the ten gallon drum of crazy glue and rope :D

pullnshoot25
09-01-2009, 9:00 PM
Nate tell the guy point blank its a bad idea and tell him EXACTLY why. Second the guy was stupid enough to tell the press of it so now the police know and you can about guess where they will be and nail him and the rest of his group to the wall when it happens and you can also bet they WILL have the press there for the wonderful photo op in the process. I told you the other night we need to lasso and crazy glue the ropes on him to make him stop. So where do I drag the ten gallon drum of crazy glue and rope :D

Just sent him an email on the subject. I told him to map everything out.

Now that the cops know he wants to be there, I am certain they are looking for every which way to **** him royally.

pullnshoot25
09-01-2009, 9:02 PM
If anyone wants to send an opinion to Gerald about his outings and whatnot, here is his email. Above all, keep it civil.

Tink@escondido-open-carry.org

locosway
09-01-2009, 9:03 PM
Please take down his email address unless you have his permission...

pullnshoot25
09-01-2009, 9:08 PM
Please take down his email address unless you have his permission...

It is on his website. It is fair game.

locosway
09-01-2009, 9:09 PM
Ok, I stand corrected. :)

locosway
09-01-2009, 9:14 PM
Email sent

POLICESTATE
09-01-2009, 9:25 PM
Any links to a youtube of the coverage or clip from the news channel?

pullnshoot25
09-01-2009, 9:53 PM
Any links to a youtube of the coverage or clip from the news channel?

I am working on it. Will post when it is complete.

POLICESTATE
09-01-2009, 10:38 PM
I am working on it. Will post when it is complete.

:clap:

pullnshoot25
09-01-2009, 11:25 PM
Just posted

Also, NCTimes article here. (http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/escondido/article_7458254b-2c32-591e-8ef4-57f29cc09ed8.html?mode=comments)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ixdR9OfVae4&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ixdR9OfVae4&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

pullnshoot25
09-01-2009, 11:31 PM
That passerby guy is SUCH a pansy.

I wish he would turn in his man card.

BTW, I have OC'd in that shopping center multiple times, including that Starbucks. Heck, I have even OC'd into the theatre too.

pullnshoot25
09-01-2009, 11:37 PM
The woman who wrote this article is the same woman that wrote the article on the cops needing more training on OC (actually, they needed training on 1,2,4,5 and 14th amendment rights altogether but hey, what do I know, right?) This is a much better article than my own and she managed not to have video clips of Uzis to preface the publishing of the article on the evening news.

Thanks Colleen!

locosway
09-01-2009, 11:40 PM
I think they were fair and balanced. Except I don't agree with them removing their weapons for camera purposes... It just puts more fear into the public and one of them will be shot sooner or later.

POLICESTATE
09-01-2009, 11:45 PM
Yeah pretty decent reporting, I can imagine a SF station would have digitized some devil horns and crap like that on the people, and put a halo on the choad who was lamenting how they don't have proper training. Yeah like he'd know what proper training is.

760practicalshooter
09-01-2009, 11:46 PM
LOL! RUN THEY HAVE GUNS ON THEIR HIPS!!!!!

pullnshoot25
09-02-2009, 6:47 AM
This may be the first video of an actual 12031 check (well, several) on the net.

Aside from pulling their own guns out and (in my opinion) talking to the cops too much, I guess it went OK.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5BKgjDDow0A&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5BKgjDDow0A&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

locosway
09-02-2009, 7:11 AM
This may be the first video of an actual 12031 check (well, several) on the net.

Aside from pulling their own guns out and (in my opinion) talking to the cops too much, I guess it went OK.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5BKgjDDow0A&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5BKgjDDow0A&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

If you could only get the picture of them shaking hands, that could be the new logo for OC... :)

Decoligny
09-02-2009, 8:15 AM
So just how do we put a stop to this? I understood that Calguns was recommending UOC'rs to stand down. In spite of the moritorium placed by leadership here there is UOC activity ongoing with media coverage.

I think I would suggest our Calguns Media contact issue a press release about the practice of unloaded open carry so that we could at least appear to be an authority on the topic when it garners media attention. Perhaps with this effort we could get these folks under our tent to operate with a strategic goal in mind.

Well, I suppose you could stake out the houses of the UOC people and beat the crap out of them when they come out. :rolleyes:

Come on people, "How do we put a stop to this?" sounds pretty fascist to me. You can't put a stop to this for the same reason you mentioned to N8, you can't control the actions of other people. The only thing you CAN do, is to try to educate them, and make recommendations.

Just because CalGuns has "RECOMMENDED that UOC'rs stand down, does not make it a papal decree to be enforced by the Spanish Inquisition. It was after all a "RECOMMENDATION" not a "COMMANDMENT" from a burning bush.

:inquis:

Maestro Pistolero
09-02-2009, 9:35 AM
If a STOP could be "put to this", the antis would have gladly done it for you already.

lomalinda
09-02-2009, 10:02 AM
I consider myself a bit of a maverick (at least for where I work) but the UOC stuff seems pretty nuts in some of its current manifestations.

In other words, I don't mind taking suggestions from Gene, et al on avant garde stuff.

We're on the way, but we're not there yet...

Kestryll
09-02-2009, 10:17 AM
So just how do we put a stop to this? I understood that Calguns was recommending UOC'rs to stand down. In spite of the moritorium placed by leadership here there is UOC activity ongoing with media coverage.

I think I would suggest our Calguns Media contact issue a press release about the practice of unloaded open carry so that we could at least appear to be an authority on the topic when it garners media attention. Perhaps with this effort we could get these folks under our tent to operate with a strategic goal in mind.

Well, I suppose you could stake out the houses of the UOC people and beat the crap out of them when they come out. :rolleyes:
nice comment, way to accuse via strawman...

Come on people, "How do we put a stop to this?" sounds pretty fascist to me. You can't put a stop to this for the same reason you mentioned to N8, you can't control the actions of other people. The only thing you CAN do, is to try to educate them, and make recommendations.

Just because CalGuns has "RECOMMENDED that UOC'rs stand down, does not make it a papal decree to be enforced by the Spanish Inquisition. It was after all a "RECOMMENDATION" not a "COMMANDMENT" from a burning bush.
In spite of the hyperbole and backhanded accusation this is a good point.

Yes, those closest to the Legislature and pending court cases and legislation have said UOC has a real potential of setting back the 2A movement in California by 2 to 5 years as ground lost due to a bad arrest is regained in unnecessary court battles.
They have strongly suggested that UOC be shelved for now until a more solid footing can be achieved.

HOWEVER...
That does not mean that 'orders' have been issued and that any UOC events are 'rogue gun owners'.

Calguns carries a lot of weight in the CA 2a community but it is not the only entity working on 2A issues.
There are others and the idea is suppose to be working together towards a common goal not trying to squash all 'non-approved' ideas.
Nor is running forward despite the potential damage and consequences for ALL CA gun owners a wise idea.
When CCW legislation is thrown back 5+ years because someone decided to bull forward regardless of the impact on other how much more division will there be?


Simply put, would it be a good idea to hold off on UOC for the time being? Yes.
Do we have any real way beyond asking people to do so of making this happen? No.

So what are the options for both parties?
A) Demand that UOC'ers stop; they say 'We're goingg to do it and too bad if it screws us all.", and nothing gets accomplished other than Sarah Brady giggling.

B) Realizing that the UOC'er are acting out of the same desire for 2A reform as the rest are; recognizing that those advocating holding off are not doing so to stifle your rights but to preserve them; and finding a way to get both parties to not just share a goal but agree on a path to that goal.

It's not that hard of a choice...

wildhawker
09-02-2009, 10:30 AM
Frankly, if we presume our movement is to suffer any sort of setback via (U)OC, it would be foolish to look past its potential for exposure- this may be a case where we're better off taking what wins we can (while we can) than taking a purists view and letting those opportunities slip by out of our desire for a no-loss outcome. This is going to be a messy culture and legal war; not leveraging the mess means we're not being creative enough.

cactustactical
09-02-2009, 10:47 AM
I just watched that video and it actually saddened me :(

Seeing grown adults being treated like children who were doing nothing wrong at all.... "let me make sure your big bang bang is unloaded" .... Strikes me as absurd. Any one of the guys that wrote the Constitutuon would be looking on going WTF?!?!?!


As an outside observer to Cali laws can someone enlighten me about the problem you are seeing with UOC? I read in these threads that CalGuns does not recommend OC as it would "hinder" your 2A right fight. Why?

Thanks and good luck to you!!

Art

.

Theseus
09-02-2009, 10:48 AM
I think they were fair and balanced. Except I don't agree with them removing their weapons for camera purposes... It just puts more fear into the public and one of them will be shot sooner or later.

I agree. . . If you watch the previous videos from ABC the OC'ers in Virginia would not under any circumstances remove the firearm. This to me makes it seem as if they are "happy" to take it out and show it.

And I will remind people that Calguns asked us not to lone wolf OC. It has been said they will not hold off on group meetings and events and unless I am mistaken this was a group event.

And the idiot that was saying "it makes me want to duck and run" yet he not only got closer, he conducted interviews with two news stations!

Decoligny
09-02-2009, 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Decoligny
Well, I suppose you could stake out the houses of the UOC people and beat the crap out of them when they come out. :rolleyes:
nice comment, way to accuse via strawman...
Come on people, "How do we put a stop to this?" sounds pretty fascist to me. You can't put a stop to this for the same reason you mentioned to N8, you can't control the actions of other people. The only thing you CAN do, is to try to educate them, and make recommendations.

Just because CalGuns has "RECOMMENDED that UOC'rs stand down, does not make it a papal decree to be enforced by the Spanish Inquisition. It was after all a "RECOMMENDATION" not a "COMMANDMENT" from a burning bush.

In spite of the hyperbole and backhanded accusation this is a good point.


Wasn't accusing anyone of anything Kestryll. There was a sarcasm emoticon at the end. I was trying to highlight the arrogance of the question, "How do we put a stop to this?" by trying to show that there really isn't anything that could be done to possibly stop UOC aside from education on the possible consequences, and recommendations not to, unless of course someone were actually foolish enough to try to actually physically "STOP" UOC'rs, which is an absolutely foolish premise.

pullnshoot25
09-02-2009, 11:30 AM
You are correct in your analysis Decoligny. I am not here to force anyone but I do want to try to get everyone under one flag and moving in the same direction.

We will see what happens here in the future, as we got a few things in the works.

wildhawker
09-02-2009, 11:31 AM
Decoligny, Gene is "hoffmang".

Cactus, rehashing the UOC debate is counterproductive and unnecessary; this is one instance where doing a search is more appropriate.

Decoligny
09-02-2009, 11:37 AM
Decoligny, Gene is "hoffmang".

Cactus, rehashing the UOC debate is counterproductive and unnecessary; this is one instance where doing a search is more appropriate.

Sorry, It was the avatar.

FreedomIsNotFree
09-02-2009, 12:51 PM
So just how do we put a stop to this? I understood that Calguns was recommending UOC'rs to stand down. In spite of the moritorium placed by leadership here there is UOC activity ongoing with media coverage.

I think I would suggest our Calguns Media contact issue a press release about the practice of unloaded open carry so that we could at least appear to be an authority on the topic when it garners media attention. Perhaps with this effort we could get these folks under our tent to operate with a strategic goal in mind.

Without delving in to the UOC debate, I believe it is the hubris represented in this post that is most counter productive. Gun owners, by in large, are more individualist and don't appreciate being dictated to...especially when they are acting within the law.

"how do we put a stop to this?"

"stand down"

"moratorium"

All comments/words that don't sit well with the mentality of most gun owners, again, acting within the law.

As others have mentioned, the best move is to inform gun owners of the current state of the legal fight for 2A rights here in CA and hope they agree. After all, it is a free country...for the time being.

nicki
09-03-2009, 3:35 AM
IMHO, any open carry is something that should be held off till we have incorporation.

That being said, overall I think the News stories were balanced. The carriers need to polish what they say to the media, but overall, I was expecting far worse.

Nicki

IGOTDIRT4U
09-03-2009, 9:05 AM
Just posted

Also, NCTimes article here. (http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/escondido/article_7458254b-2c32-591e-8ef4-57f29cc09ed8.html?mode=comments)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ixdR9OfVae4&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ixdR9OfVae4&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I guess it helps a bit with public perception that most of the group were of an older age with many women mixed in.

So far the most coverage I have seenon UOC has been in San Diego. Although it hurts the CCW issues as to public perception of gun owners, it also has the effect of presenting a campaign issue to the SD residents.

swhatb
09-03-2009, 9:24 AM
True.

Hopefully those at UOC will follow the law...

In spite of the hyperbole and backhanded accusation this is a good point.

Yes, those closest to the Legislature and pending court cases and legislation have said UOC has a real potential of setting back the 2A movement in California by 2 to 5 years as ground lost due to a bad arrest is regained in unnecessary court battles.
They have strongly suggested that UOC be shelved for now until a more solid footing can be achieved.

HOWEVER...
That does not mean that 'orders' have been issued and that any UOC events are 'rogue gun owners'.

Calguns carries a lot of weight in the CA 2a community but it is not the only entity working on 2A issues.
There are others and the idea is suppose to be working together towards a common goal not trying to squash all 'non-approved' ideas.
Nor is running forward despite the potential damage and consequences for ALL CA gun owners a wise idea.
When CCW legislation is thrown back 5+ years because someone decided to bull forward regardless of the impact on other how much more division will there be?


Simply put, would it be a good idea to hold off on UOC for the time being? Yes.
Do we have any real way beyond asking people to do so of making this happen? No.

So what are the options for both parties?
A) Demand that UOC'ers stop; they say 'We're goingg to do it and too bad if it screws us all.", and nothing gets accomplished other than Sarah Brady giggling.

B) Realizing that the UOC'er are acting out of the same desire for 2A reform as the rest are; recognizing that those advocating holding off are not doing so to stifle your rights but to preserve them; and finding a way to get both parties to not just share a goal but agree on a path to that goal.

It's not that hard of a choice...

GrizzlyGuy
09-03-2009, 9:56 AM
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At about 27 seconds into the news report, I noticed that the lady was carrying her shoulder bag on her strong side. A hyper-technical, anti-UOC LEO might try to claim the bag is obscuring the weapon and it's therefore not being carried "openly".

As an extra precaution, it might be a good idea for the ladies to use hand bags, backpacks or at least carry their shoulder bags on their weak sides. I'd hate to see one of these brave souls get hassled on a silly technicality.

Nate74
09-03-2009, 9:59 AM
How did the movement proceed in Ohio? The countless OC rallies there eventually led to change (I hate using that word now). I lived in Cincinnati in 2000 and 2001 and recall many of the rallies being organized by very decentralized group. I even attended one organized by a women's church group. Have any comparisons/analysis been done on the road map they followed?

wildhawker
09-03-2009, 10:10 AM
How did the movement proceed in Ohio? The countless OC rallies there eventually led to change (I hate using that word now). I lived in Cincinnati in 2000 and 2001 and recall many of the rallies being organized by very decentralized group. I even attended one organized by a women's church group. Have any comparisons/analysis been done on the road map they followed?

Yes - OH is not CA. It is highly improbable (bordering zero) that CA will respond as OH did. Those close to folks in Sacramento believe that a negative response by CA leg is inevitable, or at least highly likely. The question is now "how do we create a firearm-friendly community where I live?"

The same tired lines of "protection against a tyrranical government", "my rights have been eroded", etc. have and will continue to fail us (see commnets page on any of the recent articles on open carry). How do we make this relevant and acceptable to our audience (your friends and neighbors)?

Nate74
09-03-2009, 10:23 AM
Yes - OH is not CA. It is highly improbable (bordering zero) that CA will respond as OH did. Those close to folks in Sacramento believe that a negative response by CA leg is inevitable, or at least highly likely. The question is now "how do we create a firearm-friendly community where I live?"

The same tired lines of "protection against a tyrranical government", "my rights have been eroded", etc. have and will continue to fail us (see commnets page on any of the recent articles on open carry). How do we make this relevant and acceptable to our audience (your friends and neighbors)?

Interesting points and thank you for them. As I begin to get more and more interested in this topic as it pertains to CA, I wish I'd paid more attention to how things proceeded in OH after I moved back here.

I see what you're saying about a potential reaction from our state legislature, but haven't other states fighting for CCW faced similar possibilities? Or is our state really so left leaning here that we have to rewrite the playbook followed by so many other states? I fear the later may prove to be true.

dantodd
09-03-2009, 10:25 AM
Or is our state really so left leaning here that we have to rewrite the playbook followed by so many other states? I fear the later may prove to be true.

That very likely is the case, sadly.