PDA

View Full Version : Do ARs always suck when dry cycling---bolt carrier stuck--


LesGrossman41510
08-30-2009, 9:41 PM
Why is the AR such a sissy when dry cycling the weapon.

Tonight my AR would chamber a round easily, however when i try to eject the round, the damn BC becomes super stuck. I have to break apart the weapon and use a screwdriver to push the BC out.

The weapons fires everytime when live firing, the BC always comes back nice.

i broke down the entire BC group and cleaned everything, put a nice layer of break free on the BC and charging handle.

I tried different kinds of ammo, dummy rounds, etc, the BC always gets stuck after chambering a round.

ARGHHHH.....ARs have alot of frustrating issues. Does your AR give you trouble when dry cycling the weapon?

dwa
08-30-2009, 9:43 PM
somethings not right. ARs are not sissy guns in any way. did you do the build yourself?

4thSBCT
08-30-2009, 9:44 PM
AK ?

Technical Ted
08-30-2009, 9:44 PM
Sounds like a crappy build.

THT
08-30-2009, 9:45 PM
Did you lubricate the races of the BCG ?

technique
08-30-2009, 9:45 PM
Its not a toy...quit playing with it Mr. Been drinking and playing with live ammo. LOL.

You need to shoot more to get her broken in.

LesGrossman41510
08-30-2009, 9:47 PM
This is NOT a build, this is factory direct from Stag, model 2ht carbine.

I have put at least 500+ rounds through her in the last 3 weeks, only had one jam and that was with cheap reloads.

I fired a good 100 rounds through her this weekend without a single problem.

She fires good everytime i actually pull the trigger and let that primer explode. However when i decide to dry cycle the weapon to eject the live round, the BC is stuck.

What is going on>>????

dwa
08-30-2009, 9:48 PM
This is NOT a build, this is factory direct from Stag, model 2ht carbine.

I have put at least 500+ rounds through her in the last 3 weeks, only had one jam and that was with cheap reloads.

I fired a good 100 rounds through her this weekend without a single problem.

She fires good everytime i actually pull the trigger and let that primer explode. However when i decide to dry cycle the weapon to eject the live round, the BC is stuck.

What is going on>>????

lack of user upper body strength :)

LesGrossman41510
08-30-2009, 9:48 PM
Should i add more gun lube?? isnt too much oil bad?

LesGrossman41510
08-30-2009, 9:50 PM
definately not upper body strengh man, i have broken her down at least ten times tonight with the same results. When no bullets are chambered, the BC and CH glide like butter. However once i actually chamber a round, the BC and charging handle does NOT come back at all. I have to take a screwdriver, wedge it into the area where the firing pin hits the cartridge and pull back the CH while doing it.

otherwise it does not budge a single bit. what the hell is going on.

oops
08-30-2009, 9:54 PM
Are these reloads or factory ammo.. if reloads it sounds like you need to full length resize.. I had same problem when I mixed my ammo with my R700/AR

oops
08-30-2009, 9:57 PM
just reread your post.. If your certain it's not the reloads then disregard

Technical Ted
08-30-2009, 9:58 PM
Sounds like oversensitive operator error.

ETA: Gudel? Is that you?

LesGrossman41510
08-30-2009, 9:58 PM
Yea i had one jam with reload ammo, but im cycling remington dummy rounds, live PPV FMJ, and Hornady FMJ.

I need to take her to the range asap and try to figure this out.

LesGrossman41510
08-30-2009, 10:00 PM
Sounds like oversensitive operator error.
Seriously save the smart responses im not in the mood for it. The BC is legitimately stuck, it hasnt done this before, i used to be able to cycle dummy rounds easily. Im tempted to take apart the whole BC and try this again.

Noobert
08-30-2009, 10:02 PM
is your BCG correct specs?

dchang0
08-30-2009, 10:07 PM
How stuck is stuck? Are you able to draw the bolt back at all, or is the bolt still locked into the barrel extension? If you are able to draw it back, how far (in mm, inches, whatever)?

technique
08-30-2009, 10:08 PM
Seriously save the smart responses im not in the mood for it. The BC is legitimately stuck, it hasnt done this before, i used to be able to cycle dummy rounds easily. Im tempted to take apart the whole BC and try this again.

TT is probly the most qualified guy to help you in this thread right now....hes just messing with you...

That Mister Donkey hat to you!:D

LesGrossman41510
08-30-2009, 10:10 PM
Yea i know TT is messing with me, but come on no need to troll. (Sorry TT but advice is more appreciated than trolling)

the CH does not budge a bit, it doesnt even come back a mm, something is stuck.

Once the round is manually ejected from the chamber after breaking apart the LR and UR, the BC and CH slide really nice!!

It gets stuck once a round is chambered.
I wish i could just take it into my backyard and fire a few rounds to get her cycling again, guess tommorow i gotta hit the range.

Turbinator
08-30-2009, 10:14 PM
Stick to cycling snap caps or dummy rounds at home. No need to risk a negligent discharge at home.

Sounds like something isn't right. I've never had a problem extracting snap caps in any builds.

Does it cycle ok when you're NOT trying to load the chamber with a dummy round?

Turby

LesGrossman41510
08-30-2009, 10:16 PM
Yup, it cycles fine without any ammo, slides back and forth like butter.

I am using dummy rounds, but i tried with a few live rounds to see if it would make a difference.

dchang0
08-30-2009, 10:17 PM
Yea i know TT is messing with me, but come on no need to troll. (Sorry TT but advice is more appreciated than trolling)

the CH does not budge a bit, it doesnt even come back a mm, something is stuck.

Once the round is manually ejected from the chamber after breaking apart the LR and UR, the BC and CH slide really nice!!

It gets stuck once a round is chambered.
I wish i could just take it into my backyard and fire a few rounds to get her cycling again, guess tommorow i gotta hit the range.

Sounds like the bolt is staying locked into the barrel extension. Maybe there's something preventing the bolt from rotating within the BCG, or maybe there are slight burrs on the inside of the barrel extension.

Check the extractor. I've got an idea that the extractor might be out of spec so that when a round is held by the extractor, it prevents the bolt from turning to unlock. With a live round, the force is so great it's made to turn, and with no round, the extractor is depressed and doesn't present any obstacle.

eaglemike
08-30-2009, 10:20 PM
Any chance the chamber is dirty, and it's not the BC that's stuck, but the round?

ETA: or some other crud built up somewhere?

Technical Ted
08-30-2009, 10:20 PM
TT is probly the most qualified guy to help you in this thread right now....hes just messing with you...

That Mister Donkey hat to you!:D
Something about people who continue to cycle live rounds after a problem has been observed.

Who am I to interfere with Darwinism?

thefinger
08-30-2009, 10:23 PM
This happened on my buddy's build when he tried to cycle dummy rounds that were made from spent casings.

The spent casings were expended enough that it was impossible to eject the casing without a rod and mallet once chambered.

Everything cycled fine when factory ammo was used though. I don't see anything wrong with cycling some live rounds through it to check as long as you're careful and keep it pointed the right direction.

LesGrossman41510
08-30-2009, 10:26 PM
Sounds like the bolt is staying locked into the barrel extension. Maybe there's something preventing the bolt from rotating within the BCG, or maybe there are slight burrs on the inside of the barrel extension.

Check the extractor. I've got an idea that the extractor might be out of spec so that when a round is held by the extractor, it prevents the bolt from turning to unlock. With a live round, the force is so great it's made to turn, and with no round, the extractor is depressed and doesn't present any obstacle.

Hmm that actually makes sense, the actually bolt was kinda stiff when moving it. Im gonna strip it again and see how it goes. Thanks for your input.

and TT im using DUMMY rounds, i used a few live bullets to see if it makes difference, which it doesnt.

And yes TT, i make sure i aim the barrel into my face when i try to cycle the rifle. When im not aiming it in my own face, i aim the weapon through my wall so that any ND will hit my neighbors next door. Does that satisfy you?

Darwinism at its ****ing finest right.

dchang0
08-30-2009, 10:36 PM
Take the BCG out and put a dummy round or new case into the bolt face. The extractor should not be "taller" than the rest of the bolt.

constructor
08-30-2009, 11:51 PM
make sure the chamber all the way to the throat is clean along with the bolt face it only takes a flake of brass or powder .002 to tighten the headspace to the point the bolt lugs are tight to the barrel extension lugs.
Ditto what was said about the extractor, different brands have different rim groove widths, found an ejector that would not go back past the bolt face the other day too.

fusionstar
08-31-2009, 12:52 AM
Maybe the BCG is hitting something that its not supposed to hit while going back.
Maybe its pressure from the magazine thats pushing the bcg up.
Load one, remove mag and try what you did before.

Ahhnother8
08-31-2009, 9:39 AM
Did we lube the locking lugs?

Crownless
08-31-2009, 10:00 AM
I could be that the bullet is getting pushed too far into the lands. I have this problem with my baby eagle and cor-bon ammunition. It locks the slide up so bad it takes all my strength to get it to cycle.

ocabj
08-31-2009, 10:23 AM
I think it's a headspace / base issue regarding the ammo. Ammo could be out of spec in combination with a tight chamber.

I've had Black Hills blue box stick in a tight .223 Wylde chamber. Same ammo was ok in my other guns (i.e. 'loose' 5.56 NATO chamber Colt chrome lined Sporter).

EBR Works
08-31-2009, 10:57 AM
Should i add more gun lube?? isnt too much oil bad?

It needs to be run soaking wet with CLP or equivalent lube. Spray it on, shake off the excess and put the BCG/charging handle back in. It's not like an AK where you can run it dry.

SJgunguy24
08-31-2009, 11:55 AM
I'm not an "AR guy" but I do know they are a bit more finicky, especially when they're new.
I'd run another 300-500 rounds and then if there's still problems, send it back. Give Randall a call or PM and see what he thinks, i'm sure he'll say the same thing though.
I think he charges something like 40 bucks to tear down and inspect an upper. It might be money well spent if you really think there is a problem.

tomd1584
08-31-2009, 12:22 PM
as long as its cycling properly when shooting i wouldnt worry to much about it. Seems like you're giving yourself a headache for no reason.

unamused
08-31-2009, 12:45 PM
do you have a friend with a BCG that you can swap in to see if it has the same problems?

BlackDrop50
08-31-2009, 1:47 PM
Your whole BCG should be pretty wet

Have you disassembled the BCG yet?

drexotic
08-31-2009, 1:57 PM
Any chance the bolt is in the BCG backwards/wrong way around? (. . . Did you disassemble the BCG after your trip to the range?)

LesGrossman41510
08-31-2009, 2:37 PM
Any chance the bolt is in the BCG backwards/wrong way around? (. . . Did you disassemble the BCG after your trip to the range?)

Yup, i dissassemble after every 200 rounds of so to clean off all the carbon on the firing pin and BCG.

It needs to be run soaking wet with CLP or equivalent lube. Spray it on, shake off the excess and put the BCG/charging handle back in. It's not like an AK where you can run it dry.

Interesting, i thought that you were supposed to spray and wipe most of it off, Now that i know this, the BCG is getting a nice liberal spray of break free. I thught guns werent supposed to be over lubed.

as long as its cycling properly when shooting i wouldnt worry to much about it. Seems like you're giving yourself a headache for no reason.

haha i kno i kno, it must be my mom's OCD kicking in. I tend to worry too much abuot things.



I wasnt able to go to the range today, darn work. I know for a fact shes gonna fire fine at the range, she just doesnt want to dry cycle for some reason. She was dry cycling fine before last week.

drexotic
08-31-2009, 2:46 PM
Any chance the bolt is in the BCG backwards/wrong way around? (. . . Did you disassemble the BCG after your trip to the range?)

Check that the extractor is in the right location . . . Should be low and to the right (so the extracted shell goes to the right).
It's possible to reassemble the bolt in the BCG 180* (left upper). If it's in the wrong way it may be the problem.

Josh3239
08-31-2009, 3:32 PM
I thught guns werent supposed to be over lubed.

You can't over lubricate an AR, in fact you can't over lubricate most rifles. You can over lubricate a handgun though.

Turbinator
08-31-2009, 3:39 PM
and TT im using DUMMY rounds, i used a few live bullets to see if it makes difference, which it doesnt.

And yes TT, i make sure i aim the barrel into my face when i try to cycle the rifle. When im not aiming it in my own face, i aim the weapon through my wall so that any ND will hit my neighbors next door. Does that satisfy you?

Darwinism at its ****ing finest right.

Relax, buddy. I also personally HATE IT when people continue to insist on using live rounds for function testing at home. There is a place for chambering live ammo for testing, it's called the range. If you're lucky enough to live on a lot of land where you can legally shoot, then you're all set, too.

We're just trying to help you, and at the same time, help ALL of us out by suggesting ways you can be safer in finding the solution.

I hope you're mature enough to understand that and focus on:

a) being safe
b) taking advice

Turby

RECCE556
08-31-2009, 3:56 PM
This is NOT a build, this is factory direct from Stag, model 2ht carbine.
Problem found.

Turbinator
08-31-2009, 4:14 PM
Problem found.

Red herring.

No issues with the Stag builds I've seen and personally used.

Turby

dwa
08-31-2009, 4:16 PM
Yup, i dissassemble after every 200 rounds of so to clean off all the carbon on the firing pin and BCG.



Interesting, i thought that you were supposed to spray and wipe most of it off, Now that i know this, the BCG is getting a nice liberal spray of break free. I thught guns werent supposed to be over lubed.



.

you cant really over lube a weapon. excess lubrication can pick up dust and dirt but in a range environment that's not really going to happen.

Blacktail 8541
08-31-2009, 4:21 PM
It really sounds as if your problem lies with the extractor. Something is not allowing it to completely ride over the rim of the cartridge which in turn jams the round in the chamber.

IsaacGlass
08-31-2009, 4:48 PM
Sounds like the extractor is pretty tight, so when trying to hand cycle the BCG its not getting enough force to catch the rim of the casing. I have a Stag 2T from factory, but I do not hand cycle dummies and/or live rounds for testing inside my house anytime period.

aplinker
08-31-2009, 5:29 PM
Stop hand cycling. It's worthless and silly.

Army
08-31-2009, 6:57 PM
First....do not soak the BCG. The system is designed to use minimal lube on the contact and cam points. Pouring on the lube only gets you dripping oil everywhere but where it's needed most. Every military manual makes this point.

Double check your bolt cam pin. Broken/cracked/ worn will allow the bolt to "float" more in the barrel extension, making lock-up more difficult.

Extractors cannot be too tight/stiff with proper springs and inserts. However, if you ease the BCG forward, the extractor cannot snap over the rim fully and now rubs/grinds against the barrel extension lugs. Always release the charging handle from full pull, or use the bolt release.

Lastly, make sure your gas tube is not bent inside the receiver. Bent/deformed tubes will lock the gas key, making manual extraction difficult.

Nix78
08-31-2009, 7:22 PM
Let us know what happens ,I can see the point made with the last post but , it dose sound like the extractor,or BCG clearances.

Darklyte27
08-31-2009, 7:27 PM
Quit posting so much and shoot more. If problem continues, contact stag only after shooting 1000 rds or so.

Have a experienced shooter who knows AR's take a look at your stag in person.

My stag has no problems. Ive shot about 800-1000 rds through my 16 inch build and only up to about now is my bolt free and loose, not tight as when it was new.

RobT2K
08-31-2009, 8:05 PM
Stop hand cycling. It's worthless and silly.

Actually dry firing is one of the cheapest and best ways to work on your form/triggerpull. Most of the military uses it plenty before you see any range time.

tomd1584
08-31-2009, 8:20 PM
Actually dry firing is one of the cheapest and best ways to work on your form/triggerpull. Most of the military uses it plenty before you see any range time.

except hes not just dry firing hes cycling live ammo

RobT2K
08-31-2009, 8:21 PM
Yeah, I thought we were all on the same page about that.
Don't do it.

weezil_boi
08-31-2009, 8:39 PM
Problem found.

Wow. Just... wow. :rolleyes:

aplinker
08-31-2009, 8:47 PM
Actually dry firing is one of the cheapest and best ways to work on your form/triggerpull. Most of the military uses it plenty before you see any range time.

I think it's pretty clear I'm referring to looking at the feeding of rounds by hand.

Dry firing this isn't.

LesGrossman41510
09-01-2009, 12:08 AM
except hes not just dry firing hes cycling live ammo

I just want to clarify that i am extremely cautious and sometimes paranoid about gun safety.

I do not condone cycling live rounds, in fact i have NEVER done it before last night.

Usually im so paranoid about gun safety that i keep a dummy round as +10 on my 10/30s. Kinda stupid, because if SHTF i have to cycle the dummy round out to chamber a real round, but thats how cautious i am with the rifle in my house.


I WAS USING DUMMY ROUNDS, they got stuck, so i tried it a few times using live ammo and had the rifle pointed at the floor of my house when dry cycling.

I was being sarcastic in my response to TT, i can take advice, i LOVE advice, i soak up knowledge and i am eager to learn more. But i can do without the sarcastic comments saying that i am due for "darwinism" or smart silly things like that.

ANd yes, i need to fire more and stop playing with it so much. However Chabot is only open 4 days a week!! What am i supposed to do during the days they are closed?!? I dry cycle the AR, clean her, etc. Is that not normal??


Once again, thanks for all the legitimate responses in here, i am carefully examining all your advice and hopefully it will help me at the Appleseed shoot next week.

LesGrossman41510
09-01-2009, 12:11 AM
Red herring.

No issues with the Stag builds I've seen and personally used.

Turby

yea i highly doubt its the stag, she has fired and extracted every single time, except for the first time i shot her when i was using cheap reloads. but a similar thing happened with the BCG getting stuck.

Technical Ted
09-01-2009, 12:19 AM
Pull the extractor.

Check the rim groove in the extractor for brass shavings or dirt.

Reassemble the BCG without the extractor.

Attempt to manually cycle a snap cap.

Does the BCG unlock easier without the extractor than with it?

You may need to use a cleaning rod to push the snap cap out.

LesGrossman41510
09-01-2009, 12:30 AM
Thanks ted, i checked the rim grooves they are clean and smooth, i remember seeing on a youtube video saying that i had to keep this part clean so i am kinda obsessive about it.

So i should put together the rifle without the extractor? I guess i can try this, i thought the extrator has to be in that certain position for the BCG and CH to lock in the first place.

Its kinda late so im probably not gonna break it open right now, but tommorow i will dissassemble the BCG and try again.

problemchild
09-01-2009, 9:24 AM
Dear God remove your firing pin if using live rounds at home. I cant tell you how many times a round has accidentally gone off an ar15's.

tomd1584
09-01-2009, 10:45 AM
Dude, I think you're stressing out about nothing. Strip it down, do a function check, take it to the range and if it fires/cycles/extracts with no problems, you're GTG>

ar15barrels
09-01-2009, 10:57 AM
Stop hand cycling. It's worthless and silly.

This.

ar15barrels
09-01-2009, 10:58 AM
Actually dry firing is one of the cheapest and best ways to work on your form/triggerpull. Most of the military uses it plenty before you see any range time.

Dry firing an AR does NOT require a loaded or a dummy round in the chamber.

ar15barrels
09-01-2009, 11:00 AM
i can take advice, i LOVE advice, i soak up knowledge and i am eager to learn more.

Your gun works fine with live ammo at the range.
What was the problem again?

ar15barrels
09-01-2009, 11:02 AM
Dear God remove your firing pin if using live rounds at home.

Don't ever cycle an AR without a firing pin.
If you want to remove the pin, buy an extra and remove only the TIP of the pin.
The firing pin locates the cam pin.
If you cycle the bolt with the cam pin installed, but no firing pin, you have a chance of permanently locking up the gun if the cam pin rotates in the bolt.

I cant tell you how many times a round has accidentally gone off an ar15's.

I can't either, because just like you, I don't know.

LesGrossman41510
09-01-2009, 11:45 AM
Your gun works fine with live ammo at the range.
What was the problem again?

I can cycle my Ruger mini 14 and Glock fine at home, i didnt know the AR was so different.

MODS: Just close my threads, ive got enough to work with so far. Range trip next weekend should finally close out this issue.

NRAhighpowershooter
09-01-2009, 3:28 PM
closed as per request... :rolleyes: