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View Full Version : Is this virtual build featureless and legal or not?


EBR Works
08-29-2009, 12:25 PM
There has been discussion in Duraglock's thread regarding his grip covers. The question is, with both grips neutered, would this build still be featureless and legal? This is a Photoshop of the forward grip installed, so no worries about legality of this actual rifle. It looks peculiar with the mag well grip, but you obviously would not need that feature with a neutered forward grip installed.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/impactco/ardggrip2x.jpg

A little refresher of what the law says:

12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding PC section 12276, assault weapon shall also
mean the following: Rifles
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a
detachable magazine CCR 11 5469 (a) and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip CCR 11 5469 (d)
(B) A thumbhole stock. CCR 11 5469 (e)
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor. CCR 11 5469 (b)
(F) A forward pistol grip. CCR 11 5469 (c)



Definition of a "Pistol Grip" PC 12276.1 & CCR 11 5469 (d)

"pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of
the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp
in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and
index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed
portion of the trigger while firing.

bwiese
08-29-2009, 12:45 PM
Gawdawful, but that doesn't allow a 'pistol-style grasp'.

Check 11 CCR 5499 for forward pistol grip regulatory definition.

M. Sage
08-29-2009, 1:01 PM
It's funny, since the most effective way to use a forward vertical grip is not to put your thumb around the back side of it, so it's apparently not a forward pistol grip but it's just as effective while breaking bad habits that lead to improper use... making it arguably better than what's banned. I love it.

ChrisSig
08-29-2009, 1:06 PM
Nice!!

EBR Works
08-29-2009, 1:11 PM
Credit goes to CalGunner sevans for first proposing the idea!

Fate
08-29-2009, 3:05 PM
Credit goes to CalGunner sevans for first proposing the idea!
Um, this was discussed probably 2 years ago using a MonsterMan grip. ;)

Even better than 2 MMG/ST grips on a featureless build is a Knights Armament finger stop. Impossible to get pistol style grasp on it and no way you can actually hold the rifle one handed with it.

thefinger
08-29-2009, 3:09 PM
anyone know the PC for the federal AOW laws that would pertain to AR15 pistols?

Would this possibly something that you could adapt to an AR pistol?

Dr. Peter Venkman
08-29-2009, 3:14 PM
I wouldn't be caught in public with that thing.

dantodd
08-29-2009, 3:28 PM
anyone know the PC for the federal AOW laws that would pertain to AR15 pistols?

Would this possibly something that you could adapt to an AR pistol?

to the best of my knowledge AR15 pistols are pistols and not AOWs so there are no federal AOW laws that would pertain to AR15 pistols.

Decoligny
08-29-2009, 3:52 PM
I may be completely off base here, but the Monsterman grip actually replaces the original pistol grip, so there is no pistol grip on the rifle with a Monsterman. In the case above, the pistol grip, and the forward pistol grip are still there on the rifle. These simply cover them up to make them non-functional.

I think it could be argued that what you have is an AW by feature definition, just with the features covered.

Don't know how a judge and jury would rule on it.

Fate
08-29-2009, 4:01 PM
I may be completely off base here, but the Monsterman grip actually replaces the original pistol grip, so there is no pistol grip on the rifle with a Monsterman. In the case above, the pistol grip, and the forward pistol grip are still there on the rifle. These simply cover them up to make them non-functional.

I think it could be argued that what you have is an AW by feature definition, just with the features covered.

Don't know how a judge and jury would rule on it.

5469. Definitions

The following definitions apply to terms used in the identification of assault weapons pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.1:

(c) "forward pistol grip" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger.

(d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

--------------

When wrapped, it no longer meets legal definition of pistol grip.

spegull03
08-29-2009, 8:32 PM
I cant see on this little computer, but is that a flash hider?

adamsreeftank
08-30-2009, 2:27 AM
to the best of my knowledge AR15 pistols are pistols and not AOWs so there are no federal AOW laws that would pertain to AR15 pistols.

Any pistol with a forward grip is considered an AOW.

EBR Works
08-30-2009, 6:51 AM
I cant see on this little computer, but is that a flash hider?

Brake

Joe
08-30-2009, 2:34 PM
you can kind of "pistol style grasp" it with your hand holding the front and palm facing back toward you.

Josh3239
08-30-2009, 3:12 PM
It doesn't allow a pistol style grasp so I don't see how you can call it illegal. This is made by Mako and has a light inside of it, it also doesn't allow a pistol style grasp:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd_images/bgprod/ARR-605.jpg

technique
08-30-2009, 5:26 PM
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/impactco/ardggrip2x.jpg



WIN!!!!!:D

vandal
08-30-2009, 7:56 PM
I'll bite. Taken to the ridiculous, if I have a pistol-gripped AR and put it in a carry case does it no longer allow for a pistol-style grasp and does the person removing it from the case commit a crime?

Okay okay, so we focus on what's attached to the gun.
When does something added to a grip become the grip? I haven't seen any definitions for that. What if the fin were riveted to the grip, epoxied, or melted? Would that make any difference?

I may be completely off base here, but the Monsterman grip actually replaces the original pistol grip, so there is no pistol grip on the rifle with a Monsterman. In the case above, the pistol grip, and the forward pistol grip are still there on the rifle. These simply cover them up to make them non-functional.

I think it could be argued that what you have is an AW by feature definition, just with the features covered.

Don't know how a judge and jury would rule on it.