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View Full Version : Why leaving California is not an option for 2A rights supporters.


Texas Boy
08-29-2009, 11:16 AM
Like many here, the ever expanding firearms laws in CA, coupled with the high state income tax, high state sales tax, insane property values, and other state meddling has me ready to pack up and leave. While financial reasons may eventually force my relocation out of the state, I will stay here as long as possible on 2A grounds, and will continue to support my brothers here even if I am forced to relocate. Here is why:

CA is already a very anti-gun “liberal” state (I say “liberal” in quotes as the meaning of this word has completely changed. At one time a “liberal” was someone who felt government should have minimal influence in our lives. Think of the word “Libertarian”. But I digress…). As population density continues to increase fewer people will be involved with firearms, big city crime will increase, and more people will view guns as being something only cops and criminals use.

As gun owners flee California, aniti’s will have an easier time restricting 2A rights and making CA a model for gun control. “Fine” you say, because you’ve decided never to set foot in California again. Unfortunately California is the most populous state in the nation – which means it controls more seats in the US congress than any other state. It means California has more Electoral College votes than any state in the nation. And this says nothing about the cultural influence California has on the nation (think Hollywood, trips to Disneyland, SF, Yosemite, etc.) The old saying that trends start in California and move East has never been truer than now.

If the anti-gun climate is allowed to thrive in California it will eventually spread to the rest of the country. We can not allow this to happen. This is not about defending a hobby or the fact that you really want a particular firearm. This is about setting limits on what government can and can not control in our personal lives. If the government (local, state, or federal) is allowed to prevent you from defending yourself or control what personal property you can or can not posses, then there is no limit to what aspects of your life a government can control.

Make no misstate – this is a battle over basic freedom and fundamental liberties and California is the front line. We must diligently fight this battle on the soap box and the ballet box, because the last alternative (the ammo box) is too unthinkable.

Introduce someone new to the shooting hobby and make them aware of 2A issues. Talk to your non-gun friends about fundamental rights and the importance of limiting government. Support a political candidate with “Libertarian” views. Call or write your legislature and make sure they know you oppose their nanny government legislation. Make a donation to the Cal guns foundation.

Despite issues like AB962, we are poised to win this war. Heller, incorporation, and a fundamental legal chain of dominoes are set to fall upon the foes of liberty. This is the time for action, not despair.

Shotgun Man
08-29-2009, 11:26 AM
For me leaving CA is not an option.

However, it is true that if all 2A supporters exodus CA, the gungrabbers will become emboldened. The fall of CA is a precursor to the fall of the nation.

lomalinda
08-29-2009, 11:34 AM
"The fall of CA is a precursor to the fall of the nation."

Amen, brother. I have e-mailed multiple people on GB who say they won't do CA sales. The line is always the same: "Move to a free state."

As stated above quite eloquently, moving is an option for only so long, and then you have to stand your ground and fight. Isn't it ironic that gunnies would recommend tucking tail and heading for the hills?

Sunwolf
08-29-2009, 11:35 AM
Let it fall.Time to reset.

radioman
08-29-2009, 11:55 AM
My family came to San Francisco in the 1870's, I'll be dammed if I let a bunch of buffoons run me out, I come from a long line of fighters. I dream of the day the big one hits and all fearful fools that have turned this state into a (honey pot) run for their little lives.

M. Sage
08-29-2009, 11:56 AM
It was mainly the financial and tax stuff that drove me out. It was actually fun playing cat and mouse with the DOJ over gun stuff.

CARB and the AQMDs had a lot more to do with my leaving than gun stuff.

radioman
08-29-2009, 12:08 PM
It was mainly the financial and tax stuff that drove me out. It was actually fun playing cat and mouse with the DOJ over gun stuff.

CARB and the AQMDs had a lot more to do with my leaving than gun stuff.

CARB is a pain in the you know where, there is a web site called killcarb.org, long over due. and then California gun control, or the lack of it. We need everyone we can get and it sound like you were a good man to have in a fight, and now I find out your AWOL.

Window_Seat
08-29-2009, 1:10 PM
Let it fall.Time to reset.

As optimistic as I have been about the future of the current cases, and future cases as well, I have also been inclined to think this way in the past. Sometimes it's necessary to "reboot". In this case, a cold one would be necessary.:( This time, however, I believe strongly that Boxer being on her way out might pick things up, and set the course for positive reinforcements.

Erik.

Window_Seat
08-29-2009, 1:19 PM
Let it fall.Time to reset.

As optimistic as I have been about the future of the current cases, and future cases as well, I have also been inclined to think this way in the past. Sometimes it's necessary to "reboot". In this case, a cold one would be necessary.:( This time, however, I believe strongly that Boxer being on her way out might pick things up, and set the course for positive reinforcements.

Erik.

POLICESTATE
08-29-2009, 1:25 PM
I dream of the day the big one hits and all fearful fools that have turned this state into a (honey pot) run for their little lives.

AMEN!

Dirtbozz
08-29-2009, 1:27 PM
I was born here 66 years ago. I have watched the deterioration of this state (the infestation by liberals), as many others have. Our state politicians live in la la land. They will not face facts. They will continue to keep their heads in the sand. They will continue to spend us into oblivion.

These idiots in Sacramento will eventually destroy it once and for all. Hopefully common sense will rise from the ashes.

audiophil2
08-29-2009, 1:54 PM
I don't think many 2A Californians are moving out of state. Sure it looks like it when you see gun forum people post that they are moving but there are many others that are leaving that would never fight for the 2A. Everyone I know that has moved out in the last 5 years has not moved due to the lack of gun rights. They moved because CA is falling apart. No way to do business, no way to educate thier kids, no way to keep money.
The ones that leave CA will remember how bad it was and will fight harder if any CA legislation enters thier state. At least I will.

artherd
08-29-2009, 1:59 PM
Why on earth would I leave? I'm (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=24777) winning! (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=180923)

Quiet
08-29-2009, 2:29 PM
Everyone I know that has moved out in the last 5 years has not moved due to the lack of gun rights. They moved because CA is falling apart. No way to do business, no way to educate thier kids, no way to keep money.

Also note, that lots of anti-gun people have moved out of CA for these reasons.

It's sort of the reason why parts of NV (Clark County), CO (Denver) and WA (Seattle) are starting to look a lot like CA, in terms of the anti-gun stuff that's happening there.

pullnshoot25
08-29-2009, 2:38 PM
My family came to San Francisco in the 1870's, I'll be dammed if I let a bunch of buffoons run me out, I come from a long line of fighters. I dream of the day the big one hits and all fearful fools that have turned this state into a (honey pot) run for their little lives.

I like the honey pot allusion, seeing as how our state flag has a bear on it... :)

nicki
08-29-2009, 3:04 PM
We have to draw the line and say no somewhere.

Stalin refused to surrender Stalingrad, against overwhelming odds, the Russians turned the War around.

We are losing because most gun owners just won't fight.All of us are in California for a reason.

Sure we have problems, but we also have creative people who can fix problems.

I realize many are natural pessimists, that nothing can be done. If you believe nothing can be done, guess what, nothing will be done.

The fact is on gun issues we are going to win and other freedom issues will follow shortly.

California will turn around because it has to.

Nicki

locosway
08-29-2009, 3:25 PM
I want out of CA for some many other reasons than the gun laws, although, those really do add fuel to the fire.

Dr. Peter Venkman
08-29-2009, 3:41 PM
I like the honey pot allusion, seeing as how our state flag has a bear on it... :)

Our state bear was killed off.

locosway
08-29-2009, 3:43 PM
Our state bear was killed off.

They're still out there... I know, I've crossed a few in the Sierra Nevada's.

Gator Monroe
08-29-2009, 3:48 PM
They're still out there... I know, I've crossed a few in the Sierra Nevada's.

Trinity Alps too... It's far better up here than Wyoming or New Mexico or Texas, California bashers just cant come to grips wit dat.

Dr. Peter Venkman
08-29-2009, 3:50 PM
They're still out there... I know, I've crossed a few in the Sierra Nevada's.

There are no California Grizzlies.

Raverous
08-29-2009, 3:51 PM
I want to leave California for a number of reasons only one of which has anything to do with gun rights. I don't mean to offend any hardcore California lovers on here but I really hate living here... and the main reason is beyond anyone's control... I feel like I'm dying every summer because of the heat and humidity alone.

I wish everyone luck in this battle but hopefully I won't still be living here by this time next year.

Gator Monroe
08-29-2009, 3:53 PM
I want to leave California for a number of reasons only one of which has anything to do with gun rights. I don't mean to offend any hardcore California lovers on here but I really hate living here... and the main reason is beyond anyone's control... I feel like I'm dying every summer because of the heat and humidity alone.

I wish everyone luck in this battle but hopefully I won't still be living here by this time next year.

Heat & humidity in Ca. ? By all means move to Atlanta or Houston or Jacksonville & enjoy .

Hogxtz
08-29-2009, 5:00 PM
I have to agree with O.P. all the way. But I am still leaving in 6 years when I retire and not soon enough. I am tired of them restricting my motocross bikes because they cause smog, I am sick of them restricting my gold dredging because its harmfull to the made up ideas of the tree huggers, I am sick of them never stopping at anti-gun laws, high taxes, making me pay for those that dont want to work, ect... It WAS a great state at one time, but not any more.

locosway
08-29-2009, 5:04 PM
I have to agree with O.P. all the way. But I am still leaving in 6 years when I retire and not soon enough. I am tired of them restricting my motocross bikes because they cause smog, I am sick of them restricting my gold dredging because its harmfull to the made up ideas of the tree huggers, I am sick of them never stopping at anti-gun laws, high taxes, making me pay for those that dont want to work, ect... It WAS a great state at one time, but not any more.

Some of best childhood memories was up above Downeyville, panning for gold with my Grandpa.

Springfield45
08-29-2009, 5:15 PM
I can buy a house for half the price in Nevada. Car Registration is cheaper by 1/5th. The cost of living is lower. I am going to leave this state because it costs to much to live here. Being able to exorcise my gun rights with out fear of arrest or confiscation is a great bonus.

VW*Mike
08-29-2009, 5:43 PM
I was born and raised here. This state has gone so far down the toilet, it is likely past the tipping point. Kind of like when a house is falling apart, you can't just patch it up or rebuild it until the rotted foundation is repaired, or replaced. I love CA, but the grass truly is greener elsewhere. If it were as simple as people say it is to fix, I would stay. Its not the state it was 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago.

Truth is its not going to be easy, or maybe even possible to fix at this point. I'm not one to back down to a fight or a challenge, in fact I like them, makes me work harder, but I also know when to throw in the towel. First you have to get rid of the liberals and Dems that would rather throw money at something then fix the problem. Thats key. Then you would have to get bills to pass to undo the mess of socialism in this state. Then you would have to kick out the illegals, which at this point have over run southern CA so bad, no measure would likely ever pass and be implemented due to the make up of the voting population (Antonio Villarigosa comes to mind, worse possible candidate but chosen by the voting population due to ethnicity).

Then you have to get businesses to come back. With disability, taxes, laws and lawsuits its going to be an uphill battle there too.

My reasons are these in no specific order:
Cost of living
over crowding and continual development
taxes
CARB
Flood of illegals waging war on us in "reconquista" trying to retake the south west.
California's "welfare state" stance.
weather
Gun laws.
air quality

I will fight the fight while I'm here, but when the spousal unit is done with school in a few years, we are taking our money and jobs elsewhere.

Quiet
08-29-2009, 5:43 PM
Being able to exorcise my gun rights with out fear of arrest or confiscation is a great bonus.

If you move to Clark County, get involved with the pro-gun movement out there. Because, the fight there has already begun.

With the lawsuit to stop development on the Clark County Shooting Park, the harrassment of open carry, the handgun registration requirement, the loss of the CCW permit exempting you from a NICS check for a firearms transfers from a FFL dealer, the Clark County 3 day waiting period for handguns and the closure of areas for shooting due to "development". Clark County is starting to become a lot like SoCal East. :mad:

GoodEyeSniper
08-29-2009, 6:01 PM
old saying that trends start in California and move East has never been truer than now.

If the anti-gun climate is allowed to thrive in California it will eventually spread to the rest of the country.

While I think this was, and is true, and not just for California but NYC, Chicago, Boston, etc... These places started some ridiculous trends, which have slowly spilled out to the rest of the country.

However it seems our population has grown more aware that these laws really don't do any good. Sure, there are more VOCAL people that are anti-gun, but more and more average joes who don't even like guns are against another AWB and tighter restrictions.

What we have to fight are those politicians who purposefully LIE, not even smear the truth, but LIE. They lie and say that most citizens want another AWB and tighter restrictions, they lie and say that the bans worked, etc...

With pretty much everyone accessing the internet, it's hard for these antis to skew the truth. And anyone who puts any thought into it can see the truth past their arguments. And I truly believe my fellow Americans will continue to come to our side. Maybe I'm just being optimistic.

radioman
08-29-2009, 6:10 PM
I like the honey pot allusion, seeing as how our state flag has a bear on it... :)

($h*t hole) is that better?

cineski
08-29-2009, 6:36 PM
I want more than anything to stay IN California. I absolutely love this state and would like to spend my life here. However, the state is going down quickly, and I truly hope in the next year there is a hard reset, or at least a steady reversal toward the better. As it sits, there is very little money to be made in CA doing what I do. It's been a slow decline for the last year and a half, but it'll get much worse before it gets better. I keep looking around thinking it'll be better in other states, but the fact is I'm not so sure it would be. There's very few states I would move to, but in one of those states, New Mexico, the type of business I do is almost just as slow. Difference is the cost of living is half what it is in CA. So if I'm making half the money I normally do, it's much easier to get by when expenses are so low. We shall see. So the gun issue is thin icing on some very thick cake, but that icing is just not existent in most other states.....even though those other states are having similar problems (at least the ones I'd consider living in) as CA.

ttboy
08-29-2009, 6:37 PM
California is a lost cause once the Ammo restriction bill pass. I'm leaving for Arizona I got family there so they will welcome me with open arms.:D Arizona has the numbers right now to thwart any restrictive gun laws, it has a Republican Governor not like the Rhino we in CA. have, but more important it has state reps. who uphold the Second Am. and cherish it. I will join any and all organizations and contribute to them to combat California like gun laws from taking hold in AZ. CA. is a cesspool of Democratic rule the once Golden state has lost its luster and people are leaving the state in droves!!!!

gravedigger
08-29-2009, 8:13 PM
I don't buy the argument that Commiefornia will "lead the way" to nationwide gun confiscation. There are TOO MANY examples that prove the contrary. Chicago, Detroit, Washington D.C., to name a few. Commiefornia may go down kicking and screaming, but we already HAVE 40 "Shall Issue" states, and even the 57(?) communist electoral votes cannot override the will of the majority of the country.

The little fights are getting all of the press, but you NEVER see any news about states turning Shall Issue, or LOC or LCC being legislated into action in the other states. The brain-dead libs will not put ANY pro-gun news out for people to see or read.

Besides, if things get that bad here, I'll be joining the armies formed in the other states to attack California and b*tch-slap these sub-creatures into submission.

I CANNOT WAIT to move OUT of this rancid bastion of liberalism with it's water rationing, crime, high taxes, property value drops, infestation of illegals, crappy roads and insane government. If someone would buy my house and business TOMORROW, I'd be out of California before Sept. 1st!

No, I'll be there to fight the good fight for the 2A in another state, but I see this state as a lost cause, a state that will only begrudgingly fall into line with the rest of the country when the 2A fight is WON in the rest of the country. For once, Commiefornia will FOLLOW the lead of the other states, or suffer the consequences.

A census taker showed up at my door with a laptop after I repeatedly told them to pound sand about every question beyond the number of people living in my home, and their age and gender. She told me, "You must answer these questions so that we can insure that you are properly represented in Sacramento." I told her, "I'm CONSERVATIVE. how many of those 57 electoral votes represented me in the last election? GTF off of my property you commie b***h! She gave me her best smug liberal smirk and left.

I'm supporting Jay LaSuer for Sheriff, but I'll probably be out of California before he is elected. This state has NOTHING to offer a free man.

rabagley
08-29-2009, 8:20 PM
I have a growing family to support and I can't afford to buy a place big enough that's also within a reasonable commute distance from my job.

So I'm making plans to have my employer relocate me where I can afford a big house on 8 acres of mountain foothills. Low taxes (and a taxpayer's bill of rights), much lower cost of living, less traffic, backdoor access to hunting: these are the reasons I'm leaving. Shall-issue CCW permits, no BB's, no roster, Class III weapons, etc. are just icing on the cake.

Sabot
08-29-2009, 8:33 PM
I just got back from Jack In The Box, or should I say Joaquin En La Caja. Not one person spoke English there, customers as well as workers.

As soon as I am able to leave. Adios California.

hoffmang
08-29-2009, 8:37 PM
Leaving just when we're about to start winning big. Cowardice?

-Gene

hawk1
08-29-2009, 8:43 PM
Such as with AB962?...:confused:

dfletcher
08-29-2009, 9:00 PM
I landed here in the early 80's and have had a great time making a few dollars and debauching (almost) to my heart's content. But I never really thought of remaining after I retire. My family has lived in NH & MA for many generations, my plan has always been to return & when I do it will be NH and not MA - I'm a little tired of having to look north to the good state(s). But, I'm not yet an old fart, so I suppose I'll be here for quite a while.

hoffmang
08-29-2009, 9:26 PM
Such as with AB962?...:confused:

W's:
OLL
End of new AWs being listed.
Actual AW, optionally an infraction.
Microstamping unimplementable.
Lead ban stopped where it is.

Likely soon W's:
Carry permits for all.
End of the Handgun roster.
(some other tricks we have up our sleeve.)

Likely L's:
Annoying restrictions on internet ammo purchases.
Records of ammo purchases at retail kept.

Future W's:
Ammo ban via internet may violate FAAA, Commerce Clause.

I like how things look from here.

-Gene

CalNRA
08-29-2009, 9:35 PM
Future W's:
Ammo ban via internet may violate FAAA, Commerce Clause.

I like how things look from here.

-Gene

yep. Last time around AB1274, the mail order ammo ban, was vetoed by Arnie due to it being a barrier to interstate commerce, and AB962 contains that clause again, so it should be a point we can corner the governor into veto lest he wants to be labeled anti-market.

cineski
08-30-2009, 6:59 AM
Edited to be nicer. Go back and read most of these posts here stating guns have very little, if nothing to do with want or having to relocate.

Leaving just when we're about to start winning big. Cowardice?

-Gene

VW*Mike
08-30-2009, 8:03 AM
Gun issues are the LEAST of my concerns, not meaning its not an important issue to me because it is, but meaning we are winning the war and making more headway on that then anything else in this fcuk's up state. What about the other issues I listed?

We already have a "Republican" (that hurts) governor. The best chance we have is sitting in that office now. How far has that gotten us? We can tackle the gun laws and have the Right People to do it. Who is going to go after immigration and be a zealot and commit political suicide to TRY and get something done? Nobody. Not like we would have the money to implement it anyway. How many other internet forum message boards are filled with tax paying activists filling suits for miss appropriation of funds for dumping money in to "special" programs that allow able bodied people not to work?

I have been to a few other places in this country, there are much better places to live. I see CA going one of two ways

Scenario 1. The citizens realize how messed up this state is and take action. Welfare and special programs are heavily restricted or done away with, the money we save is used to hire law enforcement for the uptick in crime that will last for the next few years. We kick out the illegals and punish sanctuary cities like Santa Ana that harbor illegals. We encourage businesses to return by offering tax breaks and other incentives knowing we will make it up in profits for sales taxes and wage taxes for the people that will work and spend money. Within 8-10 years, the state is back functioning normally with repaired roads, filled coffers, lower taxes.

Scenario 2: California left unchecked continues to spiral down. The politicians busy with their own special interests and agendas do not realize it until its far too late. As businesses continue to leave, as do "well to do" affluent citizens, citizens with a skill or a trade that can take their money and jobs to another more fruitful state will. It will leave a vacuum behind of lost revenue for the state to pay for infrastructure and basic services. Furthering its decay until it completely implodes on itself. Which seems where we are at now.

locosway
08-30-2009, 8:13 AM
There are far too many sympathizers to the illegal's. It's not ok for illegals to enter their county, but they can come to ours.

CA won't be turned around with a civil war here.

MrSigmaDOT40
08-30-2009, 8:18 AM
I say we leave in a MASS exodus for NV ( to save it before its to late) and AZ. We would have to stay organized and immediatly startk nocking down the BS thats starting and stay active (Look at NH). I agree with others that CA is a lost cause. I will stay and fight for as long as i can or have to be here, but as soon as i get the chance i'm out. I will still support from where i go but its getting to be far too much crap out here. If we somehow get incorporation ( i think they will block that even if they have to do it illegaly) that "might" be the turning point for good but i think they will REALY get tyranical in stopping or ignoring incorporation.

FREE STATE PROJECT NV, AZ before its too late.

locosway
08-30-2009, 8:21 AM
I wish the state of Jefferson would hurry up...

JBird33
08-30-2009, 8:28 AM
If I leave California it will be due to financial reasons and nothing else. I just don't know how I am supposed to save up for retirement one day, try to buy a home, and maybe raise a family while being taxed to death.

ST5MF
08-30-2009, 8:40 AM
Like many here, the ever expanding firearms laws in CA, coupled with the high state income tax, high state sales tax, insane property values, and other state meddling has me ready to pack up and leave. While financial reasons may eventually force my relocation out of the state, I will stay here as long as possible on 2A grounds, and will continue to support my brothers here even if I am forced to relocate. Here is why:

CA is already a very anti-gun “liberal” state (I say “liberal” in quotes as the meaning of this word has completely changed. At one time a “liberal” was someone who felt government should have minimal influence in our lives. Think of the word “Libertarian”. But I digress…). As population density continues to increase fewer people will be involved with firearms, big city crime will increase, and more people will view guns as being something only cops and criminals use.

As gun owners flee California, aniti’s will have an easier time restricting 2A rights and making CA a model for gun control. “Fine” you say, because you’ve decided never to set foot in California again. Unfortunately California is the most populous state in the nation – which means it controls more seats in the US congress than any other state. It means California has more Electoral College votes than any state in the nation. And this says nothing about the cultural influence California has on the nation (think Hollywood, trips to Disneyland, SF, Yosemite, etc.) The old saying that trends start in California and move East has never been truer than now.

If the anti-gun climate is allowed to thrive in California it will eventually spread to the rest of the country. We can not allow this to happen. This is not about defending a hobby or the fact that you really want a particular firearm. This is about setting limits on what government can and can not control in our personal lives. If the government (local, state, or federal) is allowed to prevent you from defending yourself or control what personal property you can or can not posses, then there is no limit to what aspects of your life a government can control.

Make no misstate – this is a battle over basic freedom and fundamental liberties and California is the front line. We must diligently fight this battle on the soap box and the ballet box, because the last alternative (the ammo box) is too unthinkable.

Introduce someone new to the shooting hobby and make them aware of 2A issues. Talk to your non-gun friends about fundamental rights and the importance of limiting government. Support a political candidate with “Libertarian” views. Call or write your legislature and make sure they know you oppose their nanny government legislation. Make a donation to the Cal guns foundation.

Despite issues like AB962, we are poised to win this war. Heller, incorporation, and a fundamental legal chain of dominoes are set to fall upon the foes of liberty. This is the time for action, not despair.

Texas is the "ANTI" California.

If politicians tried half the crap they pull here; they would be thrown out on their A**. Literally.

If the "disease" spreads it will wither and die at the TX border.

8-Ball
08-30-2009, 8:52 AM
I moved here in 1971 and loved it. California has since become a cesspool of freedom robbing legislators. I can't wait to get out.

The more businesses and thereby workers that exit this state, the lower the treasure trove of electoral votes becomes, the lower the tax base becomes and the sooner the overhead will bury this state and force the voters to come to the realization that the socialist policies wrought by the liberal legislators are to blame. Arnold came to the governorship by much less. It is just a matter of time with the present policies and thrust of the California legislature.

yellowfin
08-30-2009, 9:17 AM
My wife and I transferred to the eastern front because of economic reasons. There's plenty of fight to be had there, and unlike there, CA has this as an organized and well motivated means of bringing an offense to the fight instead of just a defense.

Here's a question for ya, Gene. How do you think the political landscape of CA would change with the gun issue resolved in our favor? I think you probably think as I do that it will cut out a lot of the slime because it takes away their political trump card, but I could be wrong.

eta34
08-30-2009, 9:24 AM
Unfortunately, gun rights is just the tip of the iceberg for many California residents. Ever-increasing hostility toward businesses, coninually escalating taxes, and rampant abuse of the political system are making the choice to leave much easier for many people.

For me, I really love California. I love the climate and the proximity to the beach and mountains. I am not sure how much longer I am willing to stay...

Midian
08-30-2009, 10:00 AM
I was conceived, born, and raised in this state. The false, ideologically naive, accountability deflecting rhetoric of liberalism, or the reactionary thuggery of alleged conservatisim, or any of that tunnel-visioned left/right paradigm thinking will not--in the forseeable future--affect my decision to live here in any way.

I love the climate. I have magnificent friends. The ocean keeps my neighbourhood at a sane temperature. And yes, I love guns. Yeah, I like fast cars and good whiskey and cigars too. For my livelihood and peace of mind I am balls deep in the entertainment industry, and that's what I am programmed to do with my life...so leaving California on some political posturing is not an option for me.

HOWEVER

Taxes are astronomical
The red carpet for illegal aliens shows no sign of rolling up
Some of the laws in this state border the tyrannical


Government doesn't care about you and never did. It got out of control in California because over the years we as the populace allowed it to (and of course where the hell was the NRA when they were needed). If you believe in the power of the ballot box and economic strangulation, changes can be made to the system, but it has to be made over time. Nothing is goddamned free, not even us, unless there is a struggle.

Calguns Foundation is apparently at the front line in the fight, and I'll stay here for a long time to see how it goes. My life is here. I don't run.

Gun confiscation? I doubt it. 2nd Amendment Incorporation and eventual Citizen liberation? Why the hell not?

Gator Monroe
08-30-2009, 10:06 AM
The Government cared enough to give us the tools to defeat Nazi-ism. Socialism, Communism, & hopefully misguided Liberalism so they have cared in the past .

chris
08-30-2009, 10:06 AM
Let it fall.Time to reset.

better yet let in burn and rebuild the state and no liberals or lawyers allowed to run for office.

cineski
08-30-2009, 10:09 AM
It still amazes me how many storefronts and businesses are vacant right now. Same with for rent apartments. There's a mass exodus going on in LA, unless they're just heading to San Bernardino county.

I moved here in 1971 and loved it. California has since become a cesspool of freedom robbing legislators. I can't wait to get out.

The more businesses and thereby workers that exit this state, the lower the treasure trove of electoral votes becomes, the lower the tax base becomes and the sooner the overhead will bury this state and force the voters to come to the realization that the socialist policies wrought by the liberal legislators are to blame. Arnold came to the governorship by much less. It is just a matter of time with the present policies and thrust of the California legislature.

Gator Monroe
08-30-2009, 10:12 AM
It still amazes me how many storefronts and businesses are vacant right now. Same with for rent apartments. There's a mass exodus going on in LA, unless they're just heading to San Bernardino county.

Reconquesta sees this and will fill the void (And you guys who are smug in you'r Entertainment industry jobs will be on the fron lines early on =LA riots of 10)

VW*Mike
08-30-2009, 11:18 AM
What about the exodus of the entertainment industry to Vancouver, or TV shows now shot in other states or countries to circumvent the Union? The entertainment industry here may be on its way out also. If we lose that, we are truly hosed. CA has nothing else to offer besides Silicon Valley.

Dirtbozz
08-30-2009, 11:58 AM
better yet let in burn and rebuild the state and no liberals or lawyers allowed to run for office.

It is the only hope for the state. :43:

God Bless The Mauser
08-30-2009, 12:10 PM
I used to want to leave beause of these stupid laws but then it occured to me that if I did that they would win and there would be one less gun rights supporter here. If I do leave it will be to Alaska to live off the grid but that won't be for a while.

bulgron
08-30-2009, 12:54 PM
What about the exodus of the entertainment industry to Vancouver, or TV shows now shot in other states or countries to circumvent the Union? The entertainment industry here may be on its way out also. If we lose that, we are truly hosed. CA has nothing else to offer besides Silicon Valley.

Silicon Valley is going down too. Companies no longer want to hire locally, but instead seek employees in places like China and India where you can get people to work for 10% of the cost of someone in California. I'm hearing stories right now about CS students coming out of college who decide to work for start ups for free, just as a resume builder, because there aren't any jobs to be had.

Perhaps far worse, the budget crises is causing the state to tighten the size of incoming freshman classes for the CSU system. This means that the world-class education system that built Silicon Valley will basically produce fewer and fewer educated & talented people. In time, this spells the end of Silicon Valley, because the venture capital money will eventually decide to leave this place in pursuit of the talent, wherever it might end up.

I can't decide if CA is going to become a third world hell hole -- in essence, Mexico's northern-most state -- or if it will default on it's financial obligations, forcing a reboot of the state. Problem is, the rhetoric amongst liberal democrats is already that the state's financial problems are the fault of a "minority, obstructionist party that just won't let us raise taxes enough to fix this state." So even if the state completely implodes financially, they'll still blame conservatives for it. In other words, a reboot due to financial implosion may not be possible.

In the meantime, the downward spiral is working well to help us forward gun rights via the courts. I guess there's a silver lining in everything, even in California's forthcoming complete destruction.

dantodd
08-30-2009, 12:58 PM
Likely L's:
Annoying restrictions on internet ammo purchases.
Records of ammo purchases at retail kept.


If the interstate commerce clause means anything it should prevent states and localities from restricting direct commerce between residents and out-of-state entities.

VW*Mike
08-30-2009, 1:04 PM
I agree Silicon Valley is the next major hit I have a friend who lost his job to outsourcing 6 months ago in the IT field. They need to stand up as one. As does the entertainment industry. Remember Bill Gates and the Microsoft anti-trust suit brought against them by the government? He basically laughed and told them he would move across the border to Canada and take his billions and their tax revenue with him and leave half of Washington out of work.

HA. even if they did raise taxes, they would just spend the money on some other program or B.S. implementation. They are like most of the people here in South O.C. that spend every dime they have and don't save for a rainy day to have a lifestyle they can't afford.

VW*Mike
08-30-2009, 1:05 PM
If they do implement the ammo registration, I will, and suggest you all do the same and buy ammo in the smallest purchases possible, like on box at a time to flood them with paperwork!

bulgron
08-30-2009, 1:08 PM
If the interstate commerce clause means anything it should prevent states and localities from restricting direct commerce between residents and out-of-state entities.

In which case, prohibitions on my buying a gun in, say, Nevada should be unconstitutional.

Perhaps fighting over AB 962 can lead to other happiness?

dantodd
08-30-2009, 1:18 PM
In which case, prohibitions on my buying a gun in, say, Nevada should be unconstitutional.

No, you are prevented from buying a gun in NV because of federal law. Interstate commerce is only to be regulated by the federal gov't.

bomb_on_bus
08-30-2009, 1:33 PM
Silicon Valley is going down too. Companies no longer want to hire locally, but instead seek employees in places like China and India where you can get people to work for 10% of the cost of someone in California. I'm hearing stories right now about CS students coming out of college who decide to work for start ups for free, just as a resume builder, because there aren't any jobs to be had.

Perhaps far worse, the budget crises is causing the state to tighten the size of incoming freshman classes for the CSU system. This means that the world-class education system that built Silicon Valley will basically produce fewer and fewer educated & talented people. In time, this spells the end of Silicon Valley, because the venture capital money will eventually decide to leave this place in pursuit of the talent, wherever it might end up.

I can't decide if CA is going to become a third world hell hole -- in essence, Mexico's northern-most state -- or if it will default on it's financial obligations, forcing a reboot of the state. Problem is, the rhetoric amongst liberal democrats is already that the state's financial problems are the fault of a "minority, obstructionist party that just won't let us raise taxes enough to fix this state." So even if the state completely implodes financially, they'll still blame conservatives for it. In other words, a reboot due to financial implosion may not be possible.

In the meantime, the downward spiral is working well to help us forward gun rights via the courts. I guess there's a silver lining in everything, even in California's forthcoming complete destruction.

Thats exactly what the politicians are fighting for in this state. Push out all forms of commerce and revenue to other countries. Leaving behind a state with jobless and hungry citizens. We have the most electoral votes and that means that we can sway a vote on way or another on the naitonal level. So if we get everyone it the state to vote the same way every time then the state has a huge advantage and the CA politicians know it. If we are pushed into poverty and are essentially a welfare state then the vast majority of people are going to vote how they are told to keep the lights on and food in the fridge. CA citizens will be the new currency of the future. I you don't believe it look at how easy it is to be an illegal immigrant and still be able to vote. The methods are trickling up from the poverty level into the middle class and soon else where.

HUTCH 7.62
08-30-2009, 1:37 PM
I'm about outta Komiefornia myself. It's really come to a point where the money is just not worth it anymore

mossy
08-30-2009, 1:57 PM
after college (2-3 years) i'm outta here, costs to much to live here and good work is to hard to find.

bulgron
08-30-2009, 2:01 PM
Thats exactly what the politicians are fighting for in this state. Push out all forms of commerce and revenue to other countries. Leaving behind a state with jobless and hungry citizens. We have the most electoral votes and that means that we can sway a vote on way or another on the naitonal level. So if we get everyone it the state to vote the same way every time then the state has a huge advantage and the CA politicians know it. If we are pushed into poverty and are essentially a welfare state then the vast majority of people are going to vote how they are told to keep the lights on and food in the fridge. CA citizens will be the new currency of the future. I you don't believe it look at how easy it is to be an illegal immigrant and still be able to vote. The methods are trickling up from the poverty level into the middle class and soon else where.

Yes, but the fly in that ointment is that people will simply leave California out of economic necessity, reducing its population to the point where they no longer have that huge number of electoral votes.

Besides, the way this state is operating right now, California already toes the Democratic Party Line. In other words, there is nothing to be gained by letting this state fail economically, which is why I don't believe our political class is doing what they're doing out of political maliciousness.

At the end of the day, it's all about incompetent, greedy people running our state. They are stupid people who don't really understand what they're doing. It's as simple as that.

bomb_on_bus
08-30-2009, 2:25 PM
Yes, but the fly in that ointment is that people will simply leave California out of economic necessity, reducing its population to the point where they no longer have that huge number of electoral votes.

Besides, the way this state is operating right now, California already toes the Democratic Party Line. In other words, there is nothing to be gained by letting this state fail economically, which is why I don't believe our political class is doing what they're doing out of political maliciousness.

At the end of the day, it's all about incompetent, greedy people running our state. They are stupid people who don't really understand what they're doing. It's as simple as that.


For every legal citizen that leaves 5 illegals take its place and through illegal procurement get the means to vote and such.

The states economy won't fail as we think. It will raise it's taxes and get bailed out by the feds.

It would be nice if we could just hit the "reset" button. But in reality the CA politicians are aware of this and have measures in place to stop it from ever becomming a pipedream. Too many people will loose their jobs and political prowess and pay whatever it takes to keep the power they have.

HUTCH 7.62
08-30-2009, 2:54 PM
Silicon Valley is going down too. Companies no longer want to hire locally, but instead seek employees in places like China and India where you can get people to work for 10% of the cost of someone in California. I'm hearing stories right now about CS students coming out of college who decide to work for start ups for free, just as a resume builder, because there aren't any jobs to be had.

Perhaps far worse, the budget crises is causing the state to tighten the size of incoming freshman classes for the CSU system. This means that the world-class education system that built Silicon Valley will basically produce fewer and fewer educated & talented people. In time, this spells the end of Silicon Valley, because the venture capital money will eventually decide to leave this place in pursuit of the talent, wherever it might end up.

I can't decide if CA is going to become a third world hell hole -- in essence, Mexico's northern-most state -- or if it will default on it's financial obligations, forcing a reboot of the state. Problem is, the rhetoric amongst liberal democrats is already that the state's financial problems are the fault of a "minority, obstructionist party that just won't let us raise taxes enough to fix this state." So even if the state completely implodes financially, they'll still blame conservatives for it. In other words, a reboot due to financial implosion may not be possible.

In the meantime, the downward spiral is working well to help us forward gun rights via the courts. I guess there's a silver lining in everything, even in California's forthcoming complete destruction.

We still have the Porn industry. and it makes more money annually than Hollywood

Quiet
08-30-2009, 3:52 PM
Texas is the "ANTI" California.

If politicians tried half the crap they pull here; they would be thrown out on their A**. Literally.

If the "disease" spreads it will wither and die at the TX border.
:confused:

Even with all the B.S. you have to put up with, you can still open carry in CA.

How come open carry is not legal in TX?

cousinkix1953
08-30-2009, 4:10 PM
If leaving is not an option; then you'd better convince more gun owning citizens to settle in the PRK. The few that we get are vastly out numbered by a deluge of illegal aliens, who come from the third world narco state of Mexico; which has more gun control laws than the Third Reich and many communist paradises...

locosway
08-30-2009, 4:12 PM
:confused:

Even with all the B.S. you have to put up with, you can still open carry in CA.

How come open carry is not legal in TX?

Because if you could OC in TX, it wouldn't be the anti of CA. Duh!!! ;)

Gator Monroe
08-30-2009, 4:12 PM
If leaving is not an option; then you'd better convince more gun owning citizens to settle in the PRK. The few that we get are vastly out numbered by a deluge of illegal aliens, who come from the third world narco state of Mexico; which has more gun control laws than the Third Reich and many communist paradises...

There are more Gun owners in California than 8 other states combined.

Midian
08-30-2009, 4:39 PM
The Government cared enough to give us the tools to defeat Nazi-ism. Socialism, Communism, & hopefully misguided Liberalism so they have cared in the past .


Don't hang your hat on that one, brother.

The "isms" you think defeated are bleeding into the national agenda at a stupifying rate.

Midian
08-30-2009, 4:47 PM
Reconquesta sees this and will fill the void (And you guys who are smug in you'r Entertainment industry jobs will be on the fron lines early on =LA riots of 10)

Well, if I am interpreting that butchered sentence correctly, you may not realize that the Entertainment Industry jobs have been on the long slow bleed to Canada and points elsewhere for awhile. The Reconquista movement isn't looking to produce state of the art films and television. Largely, they're peasants.

New Mexico has a great tax incentive program for the film or TV industry, and a lot of projects are being shot out there on thousands of acres of location and a huge sparkling brand new facility in Albuquerque. So the exodus is not news. As for smugness, well I guess that depends on the point of view.

Commercial Real Estate is in the perilous jaws of total failure. You're going to see a staggering amount of vacant storefronts and beggars by 2012. I saw an entire family begging in the parking lot of Vons in Ventura today.

We're not done with this depression yet by a long stretch.

So arm up.

cousinkix1953
08-30-2009, 5:08 PM
There are more Gun owners in California than 8 other states combined.
It's not enough to off set those illegals and anti-gun liberals. Thousands of morons (who own guns) vote for Feinstein and Boxer, despite the threat these two are to their own rights...

gravedigger
08-30-2009, 5:23 PM
Leaving just when we're about to start winning big. Cowardice?

-Gene

Cheap shot, Gene. There is MUCH MORE to motivate a free man to move out of this bastion of communism than just any gun rights/privileges we may gain over a period of time through the efforts of the OC crowd, your efforts and others. Okay, so lets say that tomorrow morning we turn on the news and the story is being repeated on all channels:

"Californians are now legally able to buy ANY gun short of a bazooka! They can buy as many guns as they want, and load them right there in the gun store before carrying them out on a cash sale with NO identification required! Ammo is being shipped in via boxcars from Virginia, and even children are now required to take a firearms course beginning in the 2nd grade. The Castle Doctrine has been put into force, and in fact, it is now legal to shoot someone in self defense without ANY fear of repercussions! Defend your life: Walk away! It is a great day in California!"

Although that would be a good START, it does not make California a Utopia. We still have insane water rationing, excessive electric bills, revenue whores who pop us for hundreds of dollars for the crime of stopping 18" beyond some painted line, a massive infestation of sub-humans with NO culture and NO personal hygiene, and NO respect for privacy or property. We pay high insurance rates to compensate for all of the uninsured who have embraced the hit-and-run mentality. We still have excessive taxation, crappy roads, massive traffic snarls, and a government that is so socialist as to make me long for the day when I will once again live in America. We still have Boxer and Feinstein, Berkeley and San Francisco.

So it is great that you are optimistic about the future of GUNS in Commiefornia, but even if I could legally carry a loaded .45 into a courtroom to answer charges for some traffic infraction, that STILL doesn't offset all of the other crap that IS Commiefornia, and after living here for 37 years I must say, I can no longer look past everything else just because "the climate is nice.".

I hope you DO succeed. I will watch your progress from a FREE state.

ST5MF
08-30-2009, 5:48 PM
:confused:

Even with all the B.S. you have to put up with, you can still open carry in CA.

How come open carry is not legal in TX?

Why open-carry when you can carry a "loaded" concealed pistol LEGALLY?

Tactically speaking, open carry only makes sense if there is more than one person in a group carrying, and the gun is actually loaded.

Great, you can open carry an unloaded gun in CA. Go to some places in CA and most open carry individuals would get beaten by their own guns before they could load the thing. If they weren't "arrested" by the fascist police in this state first that is.

locosway
08-30-2009, 6:05 PM
Why open-carry when you can carry a "loaded" concealed pistol LEGALLY?

Tactically speaking, open carry only makes sense if there is more than one person in a group carrying, and the gun is actually loaded.

Great, you can open carry an unloaded gun in CA. Go to some places in CA and most open carry individuals would get beaten by their own guns before they could load the thing. If they weren't "arrested" by the fascist police in this state first that is.

I call BS to this. I'm a white guy, conservative haircut, and I've driven and stopped in all the "bad" places you can think of around here. No one has ever hassled me, and if I was carrying a gun it would be the same.

Why?

Because they don't know it's not loaded! UOC is not normal, they aren't used to seeing people carry unloaded guns. Also, It's very very likely anyone who saw me would mistake me for a LEO.

Quiet
08-30-2009, 6:08 PM
Why open-carry when you can carry a "loaded" concealed pistol LEGALLY?

Tactically speaking, open carry only makes sense if there is more than one person in a group carrying, and the gun is actually loaded.

Great, you can open carry an unloaded gun in CA. Go to some places in CA and most open carry individuals would get beaten by their own guns before they could load the thing. If they weren't "arrested" by the fascist police in this state first that is.

I open carry a loaded handgun in CA, when I'm out hiking in unincorporated areas.

Open carry = faster draw time than conceal carry. Easier to carry when carrying a pack.

When you are out in the bush in TX, how do you go about carrying a handgun for personal protection? Do you just suffer with the requirement to keep it concealed?

ST5MF
08-30-2009, 6:47 PM
I open carry a loaded handgun in CA, when I'm out hiking in unincorporated areas.

Open carry = faster draw time than conceal carry. Easier to carry when carrying a pack.

When you are out in the bush in TX, how do you go about carrying a handgun for personal protection? Do you just suffer with the requirement to keep it concealed?

Concealed carry can be as simple as a light shirt over a strong side holstered gun. Where is the "suffering" of which you speak? There is no carry issues with carrying a loaded gun openly out in the "Bush" as you say. I have been out with friends with NFA compliant suppressed weapons- try that in Commiefornia :) Assuming it isn't on someone elses private property that is.

Trying to compare California gun laws to that of TX is a losing game. California is one the worst places for firearms owners in the U.S. that is no secret.

You think you are more likely to encounter a threat out in the "bush" with sparse amounts of people or in a metropolis of people. Where do you think violent crime occurs exactly?

I don't think you are very familiar with CCW. A pistol does not have to be under 7 layers of clothing in a pair of "thunderwear." a strong sided holster and a t-shirt has worked for me in the past (and is legal). It takes no time to clear a shirt. And the gun is actually loaded in an environment were it needs to be- Around actual people...

ST5MF
08-30-2009, 6:52 PM
I call BS to this. I'm a white guy, conservative haircut, and I've driven and stopped in all the "bad" places you can think of around here. No one has ever hassled me, and if I was carrying a gun it would be the same.

Why?

Because they don't know it's not loaded! UOC is not normal, they aren't used to seeing people carry unloaded guns. Also, It's very very likely anyone who saw me would mistake me for a LEO.

You are making the mistake of thinking you are not vulnerable of being a target of crime. If enough men maybe even one man with the commitment to do you harm wanted to take your gun away and beat you with it; they could. To say you will "never be hassled" already puts you behind the power curve in the mind set department.

hoffmang
08-30-2009, 7:10 PM
Cheap shot, Gene.

Nope. This is the cheap shot.

When the going gets tough, the tough leave is not the old saying for a reason.

I do understand voting with your feet, but that only means those who are off track get more democratic power. When the state goes through cataclysmic change its going to need people who weren't the problem in the first place left.

I'm here until they pay me to leave - which they do work on doing...

-Gene

pullnshoot25
08-30-2009, 7:12 PM
Why open-carry when you can carry a "loaded" concealed pistol LEGALLY?

Tactically speaking, open carry only makes sense if there is more than one person in a group carrying, and the gun is actually loaded.

Great, you can open carry an unloaded gun in CA. Go to some places in CA and most open carry individuals would get beaten by their own guns before they could load the thing. If they weren't "arrested" by the fascist police in this state first that is.

OH great, another one...

ST5MF
08-30-2009, 7:30 PM
Only in Cali would people rejoice about being able to carry an unloaded weapon.

News flash. A pistol needs cartridges to actually work the way it was intented.

As far as the "people think it is loaded" argument... taking that "risk" isn't exactly on the side of intelligent. Bluffing may sometimes work in poker; I am not so sure I would gamble my LIFE with a "bluff."

locosway
08-30-2009, 7:34 PM
You are making the mistake of thinking you are not vulnerable of being a target of crime. If enough men maybe even one man with the commitment to do you harm wanted to take your gun away and beat you with it; they could. To say you will "never be hassled" already puts you behind the power curve in the mind set department.

It's not that I would never be hassled, it's an issue of I'm always looking for it. I eye everyone, and expect someone to jump me from behind. I run scenarios through my head while waiting in line.

If someone is going to try and get the drop on me, they're going to be surprised.

Keep in mind I'm 6'4" and 260lbs right now. I've done a lot of martial arts and sparing including grappling. I always have my Benchmade on me no matter what.

Do I feel like I'll be hassled? No, I don't. Is it possible? Yes, it is. Am I ready for it? All the time...

JBird33
08-30-2009, 7:49 PM
It's not that I would never be hassled, it's an issue of I'm always looking for it. I eye everyone, and expect someone to jump me from behind. I run scenarios through my head while waiting in line.

If someone is going to try and get the drop on me, they're going to be surprised.

Keep in mind I'm 6'4" and 260lbs right now. I've done a lot of martial arts and sparing including grappling. I always have my Benchmade on me no matter what.

Do I feel like I'll be hassled? No, I don't. Is it possible? Yes, it is. Am I ready for it? All the time...

Unless it is some thug who is illegally carrying, sees a guy open carrying, and decides to rob you of your nice pistol. No martial arts in the world can save you from a loaded gun that is pointed at you from 20 feet away, and neither can your unloaded gun. Open carry in Cali may be legal, but IMHO does nothing but draw attention. Especially since "nobody could mistake you for LEO."

I would rather illegally CCW a loaded weapon if I absolutely had to for some reason, than go around drawing attention to myself from every Joe-schmoe because I have an unloaded pistol on my hip.

locosway
08-30-2009, 8:09 PM
Unless it is some thug who is illegally carrying, sees a guy open carrying, and decides to rob you of your nice pistol. No martial arts in the world can save you from a loaded gun that is pointed at you from 20 feet away, and neither can your unloaded gun. Open carry in Cali may be legal, but IMHO does nothing but draw attention. Especially since "nobody could mistake you for LEO."

I would rather illegally CCW a loaded weapon if I absolutely had to for some reason, than go around drawing attention to myself from every Joe-schmoe because I have an unloaded pistol on my hip.

That's true, but still unproven. In fact, every inmate ever interviewed about who they would rob would pick someone who was unarmed. Why take a chance with an armed citizen?

Why couldn't someone mistake me for a LEO? I have a high and tight haircut, I'm white, educated, speak well, and I'm aware of my surroundings.

You think a you need a badge sticking out for someone to think you're a cop?

locosway
08-30-2009, 8:11 PM
Yep, look at those badges, uniforms, and signs pointing at them screaming COP!

http://www.town-and-country.org/uploads/detectives.JPG

JBird33
08-30-2009, 8:13 PM
That's true, but still unproven. In fact, every inmate ever interviewed about who they would rob would pick someone who was unarmed. Why take a chance with an armed citizen?

Why couldn't someone mistake me for a LEO? I have a high and tight haircut, I'm white, educated, speak well, and I'm aware of my surroundings.

You think a you need a badge sticking out for someone to think you're a cop?

Hey bud, I wasn't assuming nobody would mistake you for LEO. Read your own post like 3 posts ago. You said it and I was referring to what you said. Something along the lines of "very, very unlikely."

I was just trusting your opinion of yourself is all :p

ETA: I call BS to this. I'm a white guy, conservative haircut, and I've driven and stopped in all the "bad" places you can think of around here. No one has ever hassled me, and if I was carrying a gun it would be the same.

Why?

Because they don't know it's not loaded! UOC is not normal, they aren't used to seeing people carry unloaded guns. Also, It's very very likely anyone who saw me would mistake me for a LEO.

Oops! My fault man. Read it wrong :(

cousinkix1953
08-30-2009, 8:15 PM
Only in Cali would people rejoice about being able to carry an unloaded weapon.

News flash. A pistol needs cartridges to actually work the way it was intented.

As far as the "people think it is loaded" argument... taking that "risk" isn't exactly on the side of intelligent. Bluffing may sometimes work in poker; I am not so sure I would gamble my LIFE with a "bluff."
Really! I will bring my WW-2 US Navy fighting knife to an unloaded gun fight any day. No law against that either. Mine is in better condition than this example and razor sharp too...
http://i.ebayimg.com/19/!BZBW3)w!2k~$(KGrHgoH-CYEjlLl9odTBKkp9coVK!~~_12.JPG

JBird33
08-30-2009, 8:19 PM
Really! I will bring my WW-2 US Navy fighting knife to an unloaded gun fight any day. No law against that either. Mine is in better condition than this example and razor sharp too...
http://i.ebayimg.com/19/!BZBW3)w!2k~$(KGrHgoH-CYEjlLl9odTBKkp9coVK!~~_12.JPG

Except you will look like a creep too, because in Cali it is illegal to conceal any knife with a fixed blade over 2.5" ;)

locosway
08-30-2009, 8:24 PM
Just walk around with it in your hand. Make sure you wave it around so everyone sees it so they know it's not concealed and is legal.. :D

ST5MF
08-30-2009, 8:49 PM
Yep, look at those badges, uniforms, and signs pointing at them screaming COP!

http://www.town-and-country.org/uploads/detectives.JPG



So your saying that if you "look" like a cop or are actually a cop you can't or won't be a crime statistic?

Seriously?

Merle
08-30-2009, 8:50 PM
People leave CA not for beliefs like our founding fathers, but because of something as simple as survival.

For me, CA income tax was ~6.5%, add 2% for sales tax, add in $5000 a difference in property tax, quadruple the vehicle license fee and you're looking at real money.

Oh, and gas is pretty ~$.15 cheaper than CA and I have unlimited water.

The icing is the ability to enjoy life without dirtbags. Every family and friend I know (including deputy sheriff's) has been the victim of crime (assault, burglary, robbery, vandalism, etc.) in CA.

I can (and accidentally have) left my garage door open and my front door unlocked. People frequently leave expensive items (snowblowers, bikes, motorcycles) out on the side of their homes.

Now, I'm not everyone, so YMMV. But in many ex-pat's experience, CA is no longer the golden state for those with the means to leave.

locosway
08-30-2009, 8:58 PM
I feel that if you look the LEO part, you may be less likely to become a victim of a crime, simply because you're armed, and you're likely aware of what's going on.

ST5MF
08-30-2009, 9:02 PM
Unless it is some thug who is illegally carrying, sees a guy open carrying, and decides to rob you of your nice pistol. No martial arts in the world can save you from a loaded gun that is pointed at you from 20 feet away, and neither can your unloaded gun. Open carry in Cali may be legal, but IMHO does nothing but draw attention. Especially since "nobody could mistake you for LEO."

I would rather illegally CCW a loaded weapon if I absolutely had to for some reason, than go around drawing attention to myself from every Joe-schmoe because I have an unloaded pistol on my hip.

Kind or what I was thinking. I don't think someone who is a "criminal" would think about the consequences of putting a gun to your head and making off with your OC pistol be it over a dead body or not.

I don't believe being 6'4" and 260lbs makes you invincible. Everyman has the ability to be taken down.

Nice to know that police officers are white guys with crew cuts too. Not sure what is meant by that(?).

Playing cop isn't a good self-defense plan- no matter how one slices it. This argument/plan holds no water and is a recipe for disaster.

locosway
08-30-2009, 9:06 PM
It's not about playing cop, it's about what people perceive. Perception is a huge amount of any encounter. If you're openly carrying a gun in CA, it's safe to assume either you're a cop, or you are a PI.

You think some crack head is going to think twice? No, they'll see a person carrying a gun and extra ammo on a belt. That's all they need, they turn around and wait for the next person who isn't armed.

ST5MF
08-30-2009, 9:07 PM
I feel that if you look the LEO part, you may be less likely to become a victim of a crime, simply because you're armed, and you're likely aware of what's going on.

News flash. LEO's are victims of crimes too. I knew a cop in SATX who was shot in the head, in uniform, on duty eating fried chicken on a break on the East Side of SA. FYI, violent criminals could give 2 F***'s if you are a cop. Some would probably like the idea of slaying an LEO.

BTW the LEO is dead as a result.

ST5MF
08-30-2009, 9:11 PM
That's true, but still unproven. In fact, every inmate ever interviewed about who they would rob would pick someone who was unarmed. Why take a chance with an armed citizen?

Why couldn't someone mistake me for a LEO? I have a high and tight haircut, I'm white, educated, speak well, and I'm aware of my surroundings.

You think a you need a badge sticking out for someone to think you're a cop?

Why rob you?

Maybe because you have a gun, and that is what is wanted as a result of the robbery(?).

You do know that guns have value and can be sold on the streets for CA$H right(?).

locosway
08-30-2009, 9:13 PM
This argument won't be won by either side, so lets agree to disagree.

Besides, I need to work on something that I think will help the gunnies.

ST5MF
08-30-2009, 9:31 PM
This argument won't be won by either side, so lets agree to disagree.

Besides, I need to work on something that I think will help the gunnies.

I strongly disagree and would not recommend open carrying an unloaded pistol for self defense.

As another poster said... You are better off carrying a loaded concealed weapon and being judged by 12 IMHO; if it comes down to it.

"1991
DEATH OF DOUGLAS GOEBLE
Date of Death : 04/20/1991
Age : 26
Cause of Death : Shot during a disturbance.
Officer Goeble was eating dinner at a restaurant on East Commerce when a man and woman involved in a disturbance entered the establishment. Seeing Officer Goeble, the man shot him in the head, then turned and shot the woman. Both Officer Goeble and the woman died from their wounds. Officer Goeble was 26 years old and had served 2 years on the Department."

I don't think the violent felon mind is deterred by a badge or gun. Most law abiding citizens yes; they have something to lose. Violent criminals, not so much.

locosway
08-30-2009, 9:35 PM
I don't carry anything except for LUCC but it stays in my truck.

I understand the 6 or 12 argument, and it's very valid and in fact something I was raised by.

Texas Boy
08-30-2009, 10:12 PM
Can we get this thread back on topic? The point of this thread was not to debate open carry or bash the state of California. I agree that Cali has problems far beyond 2A, and as I stated in my original post, the financial issues could force me out. However, I still believe that the 2A fight here is important to the country at large. Didn't Martin Luther King say "injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"? As long as California is allowed to get away with bashing the 2A, anti's in other locations are going to look at California as an example of what they might be able to accomplish.

I agree with Gene - it appears we are starting to win this fight. It isn't over yet, and there are lots of curve balls that could come our way - but a win here is a serious stake in the heart of the anti gun movement.

I also think the "let Komifornia die" argument is a bad strategy. While I must admit to a certain satisfaction in seeing the incompetent politicians suffer their just deserts - it never seems to happen that way. There are plenty of examples of miss guided, socialist, nanny, individual rights controlling countries that have messed up their economies but still manage to do quite nicely. The UK is a great example. And I don't see it going away or being reborn as a libertarian utopia anytime soon.

Hold your ground or surrender it to your opponent.

Bruce
08-30-2009, 10:25 PM
California is a lost cause once the Ammo restriction bill pass. I'm leaving for Arizona I got family there so they will welcome me with open arms.:D Arizona has the numbers right now to thwart any restrictive gun laws, it has a Republican Governor not like the Rhino we in CA. have, but more important it has state reps. who uphold the Second Am. and cherish it. I will join any and all organizations and contribute to them to combat California like gun laws from taking hold in AZ. CA. is a cesspool of Democratic rule the once Golden state has lost its luster and people are leaving the state in droves!!!!

Buh-buy.
Don't let the door knob hit ya ......:D

Bruce
08-30-2009, 10:33 PM
Cheap shot, Gene. There is MUCH MORE to motivate a free man to move out of this bastion of communism than just any gun rights/privileges we may gain over a period of time through the efforts of the OC crowd, your efforts and others. Okay, so lets say that tomorrow morning we turn on the news and the story is being repeated on all channels:

"Californians are now legally able to buy ANY gun short of a bazooka! They can buy as many guns as they want, and load them right there in the gun store before carrying them out on a cash sale with NO identification required! Ammo is being shipped in via boxcars from Virginia, and even children are now required to take a firearms course beginning in the 2nd grade. The Castle Doctrine has been put into force, and in fact, it is now legal to shoot someone in self defense without ANY fear of repercussions! Defend your life: Walk away! It is a great day in California!"

Although that would be a good START, it does not make California a Utopia. We still have insane water rationing, excessive electric bills, revenue whores who pop us for hundreds of dollars for the crime of stopping 18" beyond some painted line, a massive infestation of sub-humans with NO culture and NO personal hygiene, and NO respect for privacy or property. We pay high insurance rates to compensate for all of the uninsured who have embraced the hit-and-run mentality. We still have excessive taxation, crappy roads, massive traffic snarls, and a government that is so socialist as to make me long for the day when I will once again live in America. We still have Boxer and Feinstein, Berkeley and San Francisco.

So it is great that you are optimistic about the future of GUNS in Commiefornia, but even if I could legally carry a loaded .45 into a courtroom to answer charges for some traffic infraction, that STILL doesn't offset all of the other crap that IS Commiefornia, and after living here for 37 years I must say, I can no longer look past everything else just because "the climate is nice.".

I hope you DO succeed. I will watch your progress from a FREE state.

Care to elaborate on that one ,amigo?

ST5MF
08-30-2009, 10:36 PM
Can we get this thread back on topic? The point of this thread was not to debate open carry or bash the state of California. I agree that Cali has problems far beyond 2A, and as I stated in my original post, the financial issues could force me out. However, I still believe that the 2A fight here is important to the country at large. Didn't Martin Luther King say "injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere"? As long as California is allowed to get away with bashing the 2A, anti's in other locations are going to look at California as an example of what they might be able to accomplish.

I agree with Gene - it appears we are starting to win this fight. It isn't over yet, and there are lots of curve balls that could come our way - but a win here is a serious stake in the heart of the anti gun movement.

I also think the "let Komifornia die" argument is a bad strategy. While I must admit to a certain satisfaction in seeing the incompetent politicians suffer their just deserts - it never seems to happen that way. There are plenty of examples of miss guided, socialist, nanny, individual rights controlling countries that have messed up their economies but still manage to do quite nicely. The UK is a great example. And I don't see it going away or being reborn as a libertarian utopia anytime soon.

Hold your ground or surrender it to your opponent.

The only solution is the throw the bums out of office who are "running" this state. Feinstein, Boxer, Pelosi, Scharzenagger, all these elitist politicians NEED TO GO before any real change can happen here. And after they go people with common sense and American Values need to replace them. This has not happened. Will it ever???

You know the libs rig the elections in a lot of places too. They will cheat to win here (i.e. illegal aliens given voting rights, unaccounted for (conservative) ballots found AT SEA etc).

gravedigger
08-30-2009, 10:51 PM
Care to elaborate on that one ,amigo?

No elaboration is necessary amigo, unless you found the words "ALL" or "EVERY" in there somewhere.

audiophil2
08-30-2009, 10:59 PM
This argument won't be won by either side, so lets agree to disagree.

I won't agree to do that.

audiophil2
08-30-2009, 11:15 PM
I moved into CA from Illinois during the 1994-2004 AWB. I got interested in guns around 1998 while in IL. If you think CA is bad spend some time in IL. Firearms ID required just to look at a gun. No carry allowed at all and if you do it is straight to jail felony. Watch out where you drive because you could enter a town that bans certain types of guns even if they are unloaded and locked in your trunk. Don't even bother looking at Pistols and AWs in Chicago or AWs or in Cook county which is 80% of tolerable urban living area with the surrounding counties another 10%. You have to drive 3 hrs out of Chicago just to see a decent gun show.

The big change did not take place in CA. It took place in DC. Next will be Chicago. CA will be on other states coatheels to get better gun laws already better then what a few states endure. Sure its not the most gun friendly but it is definately not the least.

Merc1138
08-31-2009, 1:20 AM
"the millenials"... seriously? Sounds like a plot for some lame straight to dvd children of the corn ripoff or something.

A number of years ago people were afraid that the granola eating tie dyed long hairs would take over, and it didn't happen.

Then my own generation of people brought up with MTV would put mt dew vending machines and a skateboard halfpipe in front of the whitehouse while changing the national anthem to "Raining Blood"(actually, that Idiocracy movie kinda fits for this one, heh.).

The reality is, there are plenty of liberals out there becoming more conservative(yes, I know it's not the politicians) and people are getting sick of wasteful spending and are starting to realize that maybe voting in democrats to lifelong positions in the state and federal legislature isn't a good idea. You make it sound as if the people here(and plenty of other places) are incapable of teaching young kids reasons why conservatism is a good option.

Plus, it's painfully obvious why it's so easy for kids to jump on the liberal bandwagon, wanna know why? We're stuck with a two party system, we have one party of mostly liberals, and another party that is stereotypically represented by an image like this:

http://bmia.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/rush-limbaugh.jpg

Yes, that's Rush Limbaugh. Wanna know what the problem is? Look at him, he looks like some old overweight white guy in a stuffy suit with a !@#$ eating grin that makes him look like he's totally full of himself. No one under the age of 40 can relate to him, and probably wouldn't want to. I'm dead serious, image means a LOT. Once you can get past the fat balding stuck up rich white guy bit, it's actually not hard to convince people that wasting money is bad, illegal immigrants are bad, taking away freedoms are bad, etc.

And with all of the griping about the huge wads of cash the democrats have blown to encourage people to vote for them, republicans can do the same thing once we get past the stereotype.

Now if you're dead set that we're screwed in 2020 with no way to stop it, the world as we know it is gonna end, total police state blah blah blah, at least think of ways to stop it? Hell, have conversations with people, show people that there's people other than "random rich old white guy in a suit" that have similar beliefs and why. Hell, I've spent the last 10 years trying to convert my entire family, and it's becoming a hell of a lot easier since some of them are state employees(they love blaming arnold on wasteful spending, now I just have to get them to realize it's the damn legislators they've been repeatedly voting in for decades).

cousinkix1953
08-31-2009, 2:57 AM
"the millenials"... seriously? Sounds like a plot for some lame straight to dvd children of the corn ripoff or something.

A number of years ago people were afraid that the granola eating tie dyed long hairs would take over, and it didn't happen.
You're wrong about this one. Our government is full of aging hippies who became politicians. They don't wear tie-dyes or beads any more and cut their long hair. Another acid head was just elected US senator from Minnesota. Read comedian Tom Davis's memoirs if you don't believe it.

Al Franken was flying high on Saturday Night Live and then Air Amerika. He played songs from his collection of Grateful Dead bootlegs between calls and the breaks. Jerry Garcia died in 1995 and so did their independent streak. His surving bandmates are now heavily involved with partisan politics, giving money to campaigns an publicly endorsing candidates...

Other hippie politicians include Patrick Leahy, Albert Gore and even Bill Clinton...

ST5MF
08-31-2009, 5:36 AM
The only solution is the throw the bums out of office who are "running" this state. Feinstein, Boxer, Pelosi, Scharzenagger, all these elitist politicians NEED TO GO before any real change can happen here. And after they go people with common sense and American Values need to replace them. This has not happened. Will it ever???

You know the libs rig the elections in a lot of places too. They will cheat to win here (i.e. illegal aliens given voting rights, unaccounted for (conservative) ballots found AT SEA etc).

Throw that weezle schumer in the mix as well... He needs to go away.

yellowfin
08-31-2009, 6:07 AM
Throw that weezle schumer in the mix as well... He needs to go away.He's a bit tougher to dislodge than we'd like. If you ever needed a textbook example of power entrenched with money and hardcore slimeball left wing elitist with ironclad job security you need look no further than one Chuck Schumer.

Sunwolf
08-31-2009, 6:36 AM
National term limits wouldn`t hurt.

bodger
08-31-2009, 7:02 AM
Leaving just when we're about to start winning big. Cowardice?

-Gene


I'll believe the big wins when I see them.

And in CA, "Big Wins" means what? We managed to take one step forward and only had to take ONE step back this time?

For me a big win is CA becoming a Shall Issue, or having gun laws like Arizona.

When you've been starved, any old crumb looks like a big win. And that's exactly how the antis want it. And they have it.

No disrespect Gene, I admire the work and effort you have put into trying to preserve RTKB in CA.

I just don't see this state ever having gun laws that resemble a free state ever again.

Hogxtz
08-31-2009, 7:09 AM
You're wrong about this one. Our government is full of aging hippies who became politicians. They don't wear tie-dyes or beads any more and cut their long hair. Another acid head was just elected US senator from Minnesota. Read comedian Tom Davis's memoirs if you don't believe it.

Al Franken was flying high on Saturday Night Live and then Air Amerika. He played songs from his collection of Grateful Dead bootlegs between calls and the breaks. Jerry Garcia died in 1995 and so did their independent streak. His surving bandmates are now heavily involved with partisan politics, giving money to campaigns an publicly endorsing candidates...

Other hippie politicians include Patrick Leahy, Albert Gore and even Bill Clinton...

And dont forget California's attourney general top cop Jerry Brown!!

Merc1138
08-31-2009, 8:20 AM
You're wrong about this one. Our government is full of aging hippies who became politicians. They don't wear tie-dyes or beads any more and cut their long hair. Another acid head was just elected US senator from Minnesota. Read comedian Tom Davis's memoirs if you don't believe it.

Al Franken was flying high on Saturday Night Live and then Air Amerika. He played songs from his collection of Grateful Dead bootlegs between calls and the breaks. Jerry Garcia died in 1995 and so did their independent streak. His surving bandmates are now heavily involved with partisan politics, giving money to campaigns an publicly endorsing candidates...

Other hippie politicians include Patrick Leahy, Albert Gore and even Bill Clinton...

I'm wrong? Show me how they've "taken over". If you're talking about the current US senate and house, nope. We have a bunch of politicians that are pretty much "lifers", you also forget that they just recently lost one as well. Am I saying there aren't hippies that have gotten themselves into politics? Of course there have, it was bound to happen. Is it all of them? Nope. At this point in time, we're losing because people don't want to associate themselves with the republican party for the reasons I posted previously. Not because all of the conservatives are dying of old age.

bulgron
08-31-2009, 8:40 AM
I'll believe the big wins when I see them.

And in CA, "Big Wins" means what? We managed to take one step forward and only had to take ONE step back this time?

For me a big win is CA becoming a Shall Issue, or having gun laws like Arizona.

When you've been starved, any old crumb looks like a big win. And that's exactly how the antis want it. And they have it.

No disrespect Gene, I admire the work and effort you have put into trying to preserve RTKB in CA.

I just don't see this state ever having gun laws that resemble a free state ever again.

Sykes is the make or break case for me. If we win, that signals a true shift in the way things are going to go for gun rights in this state. If we lose, well, then its probably time to pack it in because the 2A fight will at best be only about holding the line so that we don't lose any more of our rights.

When I got into this whole gun rights thing, I told people I wasn't going to do it if we're only going to play defense. I'm therefore delighted by Sykes. But Sykes pretty much has to result in all of us being able to get CCWs in order to make it worth it to me to continue to invest money and, most importantly, time to this effort.

GuyW
08-31-2009, 11:17 AM
No, you are prevented from buying a gun in NV because of federal law. Interstate commerce is only to be regulated by the federal gov't.

You can buy a long gun in an adjoining state, as long as its a legal gun in your state.

.

dantodd
08-31-2009, 11:29 AM
You can buy a long gun in an adjoining state, as long as its a legal gun in your state.

.

Not if you are from CA. None of our adjoining states meet CA requirements. Federal law says adjoining state sales must meet requirements of both states.

Gator Monroe
08-31-2009, 11:33 AM
Not if you are from CA. None of our adjoining states meet CA requirements. Federal law says adjoining state sales must meet requirements of both states.

What about WW1 Enfields and SKS's & other C&R's from the Big Reno Show ?

ipser
08-31-2009, 11:55 AM
I just don't see this state ever having gun laws that resemble a free state ever again.

Certainly not if everyone sits on their arse letting others do the fighting for them.

Sykes is the make or break case for me. If we win, that signals a true shift in the way things are going to go for gun rights in this state.
Sykes (and other legal cases) will determine if the rest of the country will save CA from itself. It won't have much impact on CA attitudes toward guns and, thus, does not address the fundamental problem that CA presents.

Here we are, behind enemy lines, and you are waiting for the cavalry to rescue us?

hill billy
08-31-2009, 12:04 PM
Not if you are from CA. None of our adjoining states meet CA requirements. Federal law says adjoining state sales must meet requirements of both states.

You certainly can. It has to be shipped to a local Ca FFL but it is perfectly legal to do so.

dantodd
08-31-2009, 12:06 PM
What about WW1 Enfields and SKS's & other C&R's from the Big Reno Show ?

Ooops, you are right, C&Rs are an exception. I should have said an FFL cannot transfer a firearm to a Californian in another state because Federal law requires any FFL transfer to meet the requirements of both the state of residence of the transferor and the transferee.

dantodd
08-31-2009, 12:08 PM
You certainly can. It has to be shipped to a local Ca FFL but it is perfectly legal to do so.

That is not what he meant but you are right it is legal. You can buy any CA legal gun from anyone in any state or possession as long as they can get a CA FFL to accept and transfer it.

hoffmang
08-31-2009, 1:07 PM
Sykes is the make or break case for me. If we win, that signals a true shift in the way things are going to go for gun rights in this state. If we lose, well, then its probably time to pack it in because the 2A fight will at best be only about holding the line so that we don't lose any more of our rights.


People miss something about winning in Federal Court. Winning a case like Sykes is more than just striking one bad practice. It takes an entire field of infringement out of the battlespace. Just remember what happened in the Civil Rights movement in the South. Court victories lead to lasting change.

-Gene

Stamatos
08-31-2009, 1:24 PM
Like many here, the ever expanding firearms laws in CA, coupled with the high state income tax, high state sales tax, insane property values, and other state meddling has me ready to pack up and leave. While financial reasons may eventually force my relocation out of the state, I will stay here as long as possible on 2A grounds, and will continue to support my brothers here even if I am forced to relocate. Here is why:

CA is already a very anti-gun “liberal” state (I say “liberal” in quotes as the meaning of this word has completely changed. At one time a “liberal” was someone who felt government should have minimal influence in our lives. Think of the word “Libertarian”. But I digress…). As population density continues to increase fewer people will be involved with firearms, big city crime will increase, and more people will view guns as being something only cops and criminals use.

As gun owners flee California, aniti’s will have an easier time restricting 2A rights and making CA a model for gun control. “Fine” you say, because you’ve decided never to set foot in California again. Unfortunately California is the most populous state in the nation – which means it controls more seats in the US congress than any other state. It means California has more Electoral College votes than any state in the nation. And this says nothing about the cultural influence California has on the nation (think Hollywood, trips to Disneyland, SF, Yosemite, etc.) The old saying that trends start in California and move East has never been truer than now.

If the anti-gun climate is allowed to thrive in California it will eventually spread to the rest of the country. We can not allow this to happen. This is not about defending a hobby or the fact that you really want a particular firearm. This is about setting limits on what government can and can not control in our personal lives. If the government (local, state, or federal) is allowed to prevent you from defending yourself or control what personal property you can or can not posses, then there is no limit to what aspects of your life a government can control.

Make no misstate – this is a battle over basic freedom and fundamental liberties and California is the front line. We must diligently fight this battle on the soap box and the ballet box, because the last alternative (the ammo box) is too unthinkable.

Introduce someone new to the shooting hobby and make them aware of 2A issues. Talk to your non-gun friends about fundamental rights and the importance of limiting government. Support a political candidate with “Libertarian” views. Call or write your legislature and make sure they know you oppose their nanny government legislation. Make a donation to the Cal guns foundation.

Despite issues like AB962, we are poised to win this war. Heller, incorporation, and a fundamental legal chain of dominoes are set to fall upon the foes of liberty. This is the time for action, not despair.

I just found this thread, could not agree with the OP more.

ipser
08-31-2009, 1:33 PM
People miss something about winning in Federal Court. Winning a case like Sykes is more than just striking one bad practice. It takes an entire field of infringement out of the battlespace. Just remember what happened in the Civil Rights movement in the South. Court victories lead to lasting change.

What people forget is that the civil rights movement was won when legal victories were conslidated by popular embrace. Southerners were shamed into changing.

By contrast, see Dred Scott for an example of a failed legal resolution of a contentious social debate. (Or any of a number of other legal cases that were ultimately washed away.)

bulgron
08-31-2009, 1:47 PM
People miss something about winning in Federal Court. Winning a case like Sykes is more than just striking one bad practice. It takes an entire field of infringement out of the battlespace. Just remember what happened in the Civil Rights movement in the South. Court victories lead to lasting change.

-Gene

Yes, but conversely, if you lose the case then you strengthen the infringement. How much the infringement is strengthened depends, I suppose, on how bad the loss is. For example, if they say, "You lose because the 2A is not incorporated," then that is merely a temporary set back. But if they say, "You lose because this practice is constitution, no matter what the status of 2A incorporation," then life just got harder. If you fight that loss all the way to the Supreme Court and they STILL say that discretionary issuance is constitutional, then the game is pretty much over and the 2A won't mean very much at all. At least, the "to bear" part of it won't.

This isn't to say that I think you shouldn't continue with Sykes because I'm afraid you're going to lose. Quite the contrary, I think you're going to win, eventually, and maybe a lot sooner than 'eventually' too. But if you don't eventually win, well, then that's my signal that I'm probably wasting my time in this fight, because the fight just became a defensive game. And I hate defensive games.

Just saying ....

Librarian
08-31-2009, 2:00 PM
You can buy a long gun in an adjoining state, as long as its a legal gun in your state.

.
Actually the 'adjoining state' language has been removed - it's legal to sell a long gun at an FFL in any state, so long as the sale follows the rules in the residence states of both the seller and the buyer; e.g. if it were legal in NM and AL, a buyer from one could meet a seller from the other at an FFl in TX.

The CA kicker is that generally transfers to CA residents must go through CA-licensed (that is, an additional CA-issued license) FFL holders.

bodger
08-31-2009, 2:33 PM
Certainly not if everyone sits on their arse letting others do the fighting for them.



Not everyone is sitting or has sat on their arse. And we're still backsliding.
I don't think CA will ever be Shall Issue nor will it have gun laws that resemble what they have in free states.

No matter how much fighting anyone does.

cousinkix1953
08-31-2009, 2:39 PM
And dont forget California's attourney general top cop Jerry Brown!!
Barbara Boxer too...

cousinkix1953
08-31-2009, 2:51 PM
I'm wrong? Show me how they've "taken over". If you're talking about the current US senate and house, nope. We have a bunch of politicians that are pretty much "lifers", you also forget that they just recently lost one as well. Am I saying there aren't hippies that have gotten themselves into politics? Of course there have, it was bound to happen. Is it all of them? Nope. At this point in time, we're losing because people don't want to associate themselves with the republican party for the reasons I posted previously. Not because all of the conservatives are dying of old age.

There are hippies in charge all over the place on the local level too. Where do you think that city hall gets all of their enviro-wacko green stuff? Right out of the 60s counter-culture. The hippie run towns have an abundance of marijuana stores, that service potheads from miles away in surrounding cities; because many jurisdictions won't permit it there.

Rush Limbaugh is another problem for the GOP. A big fat idiot chewing on a stinky cigar doesn't appeal to millions of people either. Mr. Dittos has never been an active supporter of gun rights either. Those kind of topics are rarely even mentioned on his show, which has been on the air since 1986. Try Lou Dobbs if you want pro 2A talk...

hoffmang
08-31-2009, 4:15 PM
By contrast, see Dred Scott for an example of a failed legal resolution of a contentious social debate. (Or any of a number of other legal cases that were ultimately washed away.)
Dred Scott was a civil rights loss. You can certainly point out cases where negative liberty didn't expand, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a place where negative liberty contracted.
I don't think CA will ever be Shall Issue nor will it have gun laws that resemble what they have in free states.

You'll be proven incorrect certainly within 5 years and probably within 24 months.

-Gene

dantodd
08-31-2009, 4:21 PM
You'll be proven incorrect certainly within 5 years and probably within 24 months.


That seems like a pretty reasonable timeline. I think that many here have been losing/fighting for so long that they don't know what winning is like....

:D

ipser
08-31-2009, 4:29 PM
Dred Scott was a civil rights loss. You can certainly point out cases where negative liberty didn't expand, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find a place where negative liberty contracted.

That would depend on whether you are analyzing Dred Scott in terms of the liberties of slaves or slaveholders. Read the decision sometime.

I know that it's emotionally rewarding to imagine that fighting for gun rights is just like fighting for other civil rights but you're still missing a lot of the essential elements that made the civil rights story turn out as it did.

Until such time as gun controllers start hanging their heads in shame, the fight will continue. CA gun controllers can draw moral support not only from other like-minded urban states but also from virtually the entire world outside America.

Don't underestimate what we're up against and what is required of us in this fight.

cousinkix1953
08-31-2009, 4:40 PM
Those illegal city and county ordinances will be thrown out just like Proposition H in San Francisco. We'll be stuck with some of those stupid state laws for some time to come. It doesn't take a member of the "FBI Organized Crime Task Force", to know that "paying annual bribes" for the right to sell a certain handgun in the PRK, is no different than east coast Mafia thugs shaking down businesses for protection money...

audiophil2
08-31-2009, 4:46 PM
Most of the states are already shall issue. All others except IL and WI are May Issue including CA. WI has been fighting for CCW for years and may eventually win. Will it be because of CA? NO! It is because most of the country has been fighting since 1986 and winning. As CA lost ground the rest of the country made ground. How can anyone really think that Sykes' possible future outcome will be the turning point to National CCW and the 2A when it is occuring 30 years after CCW has been fought and won in almost every other state?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Rtc.gif

bodger
08-31-2009, 5:43 PM
You'll be proven incorrect certainly within 5 years and probably within 24 months.

-Gene

I'll take that as your personal guarantee. :D

I hope you're right Gene, and I continue to donate to the NRA and CGF, and send the calls and faxes and e-mails to help in the fight.

ttboy
08-31-2009, 6:16 PM
Buh-buy.
Don't let the door knob hit ya ......:D

Thanks from the FREE state of ARIZONA.

hoffmang
08-31-2009, 7:18 PM
That would depend on whether you are analyzing Dred Scott in terms of the liberties of slaves or slaveholders. Read the decision sometime.

I know that it's emotionally rewarding to imagine that fighting for gun rights is just like fighting for other civil rights but you're still missing a lot of the essential elements that made the civil rights story turn out as it did.

Wow, you're wildly off. I have read Scott v. Sanford. You fully ducked my point about positive and negative liberty. You've intrinsically argued that property interest in people is a liberty right. I tend not to agree with you. Scott maintained the status quo and as such was a loss for liberty. It pains me that I'd have to actually explain that.


Until such time as gun controllers start hanging their heads in shame, the fight will continue.
No. As soon as the deep pocketed NGO's realize they can't win the battle to take guns away from people we will have won. Two and only two actual drivers create anti-gun laws. One is a utopian desire to rid the planet of firearms. The second is the use of gun laws to allow a politician to look tough on crime without actually risking being tough on crime or on potential constituents that support much of the crime.

The scope and depth of the bill of rights has only gotten wider. To counter that statement you need to show me where negative liberty has been narrowed - otherwise your opinion is unfounded.

-Gene

ipser
08-31-2009, 7:26 PM
You've intrinsically argued that property interest in people is a liberty right.
Yes, that is the slaveholders' perspective to which I referred.

As soon as the deep pocketed NGO's realize they can't win the battle to take guns away from people we will have won.
That is way too optimistic a view and reflects a gross underestimation of liberal utopianism.

hoffmang
08-31-2009, 8:02 PM
Yes, that is the slaveholders' perspective to which I referred.

You have one twisted definition of liberty then. Even the founders knew they were hypocrites. I'd suggest not going along.

That is way too optimistic a view and reflects a gross underestimation of liberal utopianism.
In fact it's quite the opposite. Liberal utopainists can accept nothing like quickly provable set backs. Quickly provable setbacks would far further undermine their agenda than just ignoring the issue and cutting off the checks.

If you think I'm wrong go look at the last 5 990's for VPC.

-Gene

rhess595
08-31-2009, 8:22 PM
There are hippies in charge all over the place on the local level too. Where do you think that city hall gets all of their enviro-wacko green stuff? Right out of the 60s counter-culture. The hippie run towns have an abundance of marijuana stores, that service potheads from miles away in surrounding cities; because many jurisdictions won't permit it there.

Rush Limbaugh is another problem for the GOP. A big fat idiot chewing on a stinky cigar doesn't appeal to millions of people either. Mr. Dittos has never been an active supporter of gun rights either. Those kind of topics are rarely even mentioned on his show, which has been on the air since 1986. Try Lou Dobbs if you want pro 2A talk...

These hypercritical points of view are a real problems for Calguns in winning over the large middle ground of California opinion.

For what its worth, lots of the baby boomer generation experimented with marijuana when they were young and a bit wild. Yet they grew up to became hardworking solid citizens with gray hair who represent the backbone of our culture. (Personally I see nothing wrong with trying to save the planet from the folks who want to pave over the farmland, and pollute the air and water.)

My wife grew up in New York City where guns were mostly used by crooks or LEOs, yet she suggested I take her nephew shooting when he came out to visit. He had a great time with the 7.62x39, had me take photos of him, etc.

The point is that there is a middle ground of reasonable people in California, but they are not reachable with polarizing hateful speech. They will, however, listen to the reasonable discussion many people here use.

dantodd
08-31-2009, 8:30 PM
The point is that there is a middle ground of reasonable people in California, but they are not reachable with polarizing hateful speech. They will, however, listen to the reasonable discussion many people here use.

There are many of us who are NOT in the middle ground who don't appreciate polarizing hateful speech....

Gator Monroe
08-31-2009, 8:35 PM
There are many of us who are NOT in the middle ground who don't appreciate polarizing hateful speech....

I resemble that remark .

artherd
08-31-2009, 8:58 PM
I'm here until they pay me to leave - which they do work on doing...

They don't have the balance :D

artherd
08-31-2009, 9:03 PM
I don't think CA will ever be Shall Issue nor will it have gun laws that resemble what they have in free states.

I'm sorry I can't hear you over the sound of making it happen. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=180923)

artherd
08-31-2009, 9:04 PM
Certainly not if everyone sits on their arse letting others do the fighting for them.


Sykes (and other legal cases) will determine if the rest of the country will save CA from itself. It won't have much impact on CA attitudes toward guns and, thus, does not address the fundamental problem that CA presents.

Here we are, behind enemy lines, and you are waiting for the cavalry to rescue us?

Sykes will result in (likely) an Appellate or Supreme Court order for California to "Do the right thing" as it were.

This is how, well all, discriminatory law falls.

ipser
08-31-2009, 9:09 PM
You have one twisted definition of liberty then.
That was the definition and judgement of the United States Supreme Court.

In fact it's quite the opposite. Liberal utopainists can accept nothing like quickly provable set backs. Quickly provable setbacks would far further undermine their agenda than just ignoring the issue and cutting off the checks.
Liberal utopianists are quite capabale of rationalizing any setbacks that occur along the way to utopia. But checks are only one part of the problem. The more fundamental problem is that gun control is the natural preference of those who hold power. And, as I mentioned previously, the American RKBA remains a unique feature in the modern world so those of a more global mind, who seek to ingratiate themselves with foreign intellectuals, will also more naturally support gun control.

Never underestimate your opponent.

hoffmang
08-31-2009, 9:14 PM
Never underestimate your opponent.
Overestimating your opponent can lead to just as serious blunders. Just ask Hitler about Patton.

-Gene

colddeadhands
08-31-2009, 9:38 PM
I left CA a year and a half ago when I was 20 and I will never move back.
I hate CA gun laws, they are atrocious acts against freedom and the constitution. That being said, If CA abolished every gun law they have I would still never come back. In Nevada I have a much better job than I could get in CA; no college. I pay no Income tax, low sales tax, no 4wheeler registration, which is just an ownership tax, I pay $48 and $50 registration for my trucks. I have an 83 k30 which CA would never let me own because of smog. My rent is 1/4 of what I would pay in CA. There is BLM and FS land everywhere that I can 4x4 on, camp, hunt and shoot guns. I Could rant for hours. People dont just leave CA because of 2A they leave because CA is OPPRESSIVE! Now if the state of Jefferson got their stuff together... that would be worth fighting for!

mossy
08-31-2009, 9:48 PM
I left CA a year and a half ago when I was 20 and I will never move back.
I hate CA gun laws, they are atrocious acts against freedom and the constitution. That being said, If CA abolished every gun law they have I would still never come back. In Nevada I have a much better job than I could get in CA; no college. I pay no Income tax, low sales tax, no 4wheeler registration, which is just an ownership tax, I pay $48 and $50 registration for my trucks. I have an 83 k30 which CA would never let me own because of smog. My rent is 1/4 of what I would pay in CA. There is BLM and FS land everywhere that I can 4x4 on, camp, hunt and shoot guns. I Could go on for hours. People dont just leave CA because of 2A they leave because CA is OPPRESSIVE! Now if the state of Jefferson got their stuff together... that would be worth fighting for!

sounds good, i will be moving to there in a year or so.

colddeadhands
08-31-2009, 9:59 PM
what part of NV?

DeanW66
09-01-2009, 12:47 AM
As long as California is allowed to get away with bashing the 2A, anti's in other locations are going to look at California as an example of what they might be able to accomplish.


For a not-terribly-different comparison: Consider what impacts CARB (California Air Resources Board) has had on the rest of the nation.

yellowfin
09-01-2009, 3:52 AM
To look on the bright side for just one thing about pollution control, outboard motors are a lot better now that we have direct injection and 4 stroke to choose from.

Midian
09-01-2009, 5:12 AM
Seems odd that people tell Mr. Hoffman he and his team can't get it done while he's really the one out there in the middle of it.

Can't win if you don't fight, but you always lose of you do nothing but gripe.

I say good job, peeps. Tenacity like that is what leadership is all about.

Gator Monroe
09-01-2009, 7:32 AM
To look on the bright side for just one thing about pollution control, outboard motors are a lot better now that we have direct injection and 4 stroke to choose from.

LOL and those outboards are priced outta the realm of any "non middle class" fisherman who could pick up a used 1970's 50 hp Evinrude for one 10th of the price of your "Green" boat motors... , and you hate Vintage Dirtbikes (1960's & 70's retro Motocross racing) too? Fascist control monger.

mossy
09-01-2009, 9:06 AM
what part of NV?

not sure yet, still gotta finish up school in cali why?

st.clouds
09-01-2009, 10:25 AM
This is sad... a part of me wants CA to just go bankrupt and become another michigan/detroit to serve as an example to any who wished to follow in its footsteps. It's only just that people should reap what they sow.

Another part of me know, even if I manage to leave this state, I still have many friends and family here and would not wish to see them go through tough times (and it already is), in the least bit.

But it's so infuriating that for the most part, the masses are unable to think for themselves and form their own opinion. And even when they do, it's often based on hysterical, emotional reasons than calculated reasoning. Anyone who preaches "personal accountability", immediately gets struck down.

I don't know... :( I feel trapped.

OntheRocks
09-01-2009, 10:47 AM
People don't just leave CA because of 2A they leave because CA is OPPRESSIVE!

I'm going to NV as well. Probably Carson City area.

I subscribe to the John Galt solution. If all the businesses left California, it would collapse under its own weight.

Merc1138
09-01-2009, 12:56 PM
To look on the bright side for just one thing about pollution control, outboard motors are a lot better now that we have direct injection and 4 stroke to choose from.

If you're talking about CARB, this is the same CARB that suggested the sale of new dark colored cars be prohibited because it takes longer for the A/C to cool the interior down in the summer(yeah, an extra 30 seconds maybe if you roll your windows down to let the hot air out first).

Oh yeah, and this is the same CARB that won't let me legally change some parts on my car that have absolutely no impact on emissions because the part manufacturers don't want to pay CARB for approval.

Wait, doesn't that sound exactly like the handgun list where the state requires manufacturers to pay for some testing to be able to sell their product in CA?

LAK Supply
09-01-2009, 3:40 PM
It definitely is an option... 2A is one of the MANY,MANY, MANY reasons to leave CA. It is an oppressive state in general, and for anybody who wants to keep their guns, keep their money, drive the vehicle they want to drive, have a fireplace in their own home, etc. leaving is the only option.

HondaMasterTech
09-01-2009, 5:19 PM
2ndA isn't the only reason to leave. Taxes are murder here. Crime is high. I like the weather but not THAT much....

mossy
09-01-2009, 8:20 PM
It definitely is an option... 2A is one of the MANY,MANY, MANY reasons to leave CA. It is an oppressive state in general, and for anybody who wants to keep their guns, keep their money, drive the vehicle they want to drive, have a fireplace in their own home, etc. leaving is the only option.

i still got a good old wood burning, global warming, tree killing fireplace in my home :D

Gator Monroe
09-01-2009, 8:33 PM
i still got a good old wood burning, global warming, tree killing fireplace in my home :D

I may burn a couple of cords of wood at the mountain home this winter (G*d willing):chris:

colddeadhands
09-01-2009, 10:18 PM
not sure yet, still gotta finish up school in cali why?

I know reno and vegas are hurting just as bad as CA, but if you look into anywhere with mining they're doing good.

Mstrty
09-01-2009, 11:55 PM
In the words of the late great Charlton Heston.

"I will leave California when you drag me out on my bbiigg ffaatt a**."

or something like that.:)

steven_m64
09-02-2009, 3:41 AM
Likely L's:
Annoying restrictions on internet ammo purchases.
Records of ammo purchases at retail kept.

Future W's:
Ammo ban via internet may violate FAAA, Commerce Clause.

I like how things look from here.

-Gene

i know for a fact that if it passes and is not dealt with i will never be able to afford firing any of my firearms again since local prices are damn insane for ammo.

jhova98040
09-02-2009, 9:40 AM
I left CA for TX three months ago and couldn't be happier. I went from Nancy Pelosi as my rep to John Culberson.

I recently graduated law school and worked in the California Senate--so I have seen a lot of this first hand. It saddens me to see the ridiculous state of CA. Those who think things will improve are kidding themselves. Forget guns for a minute--CA's economy is built on unstable (that is being generous) foundations. The state is run by incompetent politicians (and I believe term limits are partially to blame for that). The laws and regulations are not business friendly. There is a massive effort to legitimize illegal immigrants--oops I mean "undocumentated migrants". Taxes are too high. Schools spend an ungodly amount per pupil and performance is a joke. The U.C. and C.S.U. systems are being dismantled. Spending is out of control. People have have an unbelievable sense of entitlement. Busy bodies run everything, from the government to the local HOA.

I applaud those taking a stand in CA; but I sincerely believe the battle has already been lost. Good luck to all of you.

ipser
09-02-2009, 10:47 AM
I left CA for TX three months ago and couldn't be happier. I went from Nancy Pelosi as my rep to John Culberson....
I applaud those taking a stand in CA; but I sincerely believe the battle has already been lost.

Therein lies the real problem. Because Peloi, and not Culberson, is Speaker of the House. You may like your current congressman better but you're still stuck with laws written by the one from CA.

It's certainly true that one can escape some gun control laws by moving but, as the OP points out, the danger is that the bad laws will follow you, one way or another.

It's happened before (TX did not always have CC, for example); it can happen again.

jhova98040
09-02-2009, 11:11 AM
Therein lies the real problem. Because Peloi, and not Culberson, is Speaker of the House. You may like your current congressman better but you're still stuck with laws written by the one from CA.

It's certainly true that one can escape some gun control laws by moving but, as the OP points out, the danger is that the bad laws will follow you, one way or another.

It's happened before (TX did not always have CC, for example); it can happen again.

very true, but at least now representitive listens to what I want. And I was very careful to point out that there were HUGE problems beyond gun control which cause 2A supporters to leave CA.

audiophil2
09-02-2009, 12:43 PM
It's happened before (TX did not always have CC, for example); it can happen again.

True. CA was May issue while TX was No issue. But look how it is now. TX is Shall issue and CA is still begging for equal rights over 10 years later. Please show some pro 2A changes that CA initiated or was majorly responsible for nationwide changes.

ipser
09-02-2009, 1:39 PM
True. CA was May issue while TX was No issue. But look how it is now. TX is Shall issue and CA is still begging for equal rights over 10 years later. Please show some pro 2A changes that CA initiated or was majorly responsible for nationwide changes.

I doubt it ever has. But I'm not suggeting that CA can ever take the lead on the pro side but, rather, that if it is allowed to remain as anti-2A as it is, it will remain a threat to the 2A, nationally given it's population and politics.

Per the OP, CA must be changed, not merely escaped.

jhova98040
09-02-2009, 3:08 PM
I doubt it ever has. But I'm not suggeting that CA can ever take the lead on the pro side but, rather, that if it is allowed to remain as anti-2A as it is, it will remain a threat to the 2A, nationally given it's population and politics.

Per the OP, CA must be changed, not merely escaped.


Sadly, CA is not changing [for the positive] even if Calguns gets its realistic wishlist accomplished.

HondaMasterTech
09-02-2009, 3:10 PM
If states remove themselves from the union California will not.

ipser
09-02-2009, 3:23 PM
Sadly, CA is not changing [for the positive] even if Calguns gets its realistic wishlist accomplished.

It's a bit more complicated than that.

On the one hand, legal victories can impact popular opinion, especially if they are coordinated with other tactics.

On the other hand, relying on the courts to fight your political battles can lead to complacency. (Who would have guessed, before FDR, that the feds could take control of the economy, it was clearly unconstitutional.)

Legal victories could be a catalyst for deeper change but it won't happen by itself.

Gator Monroe
09-02-2009, 4:21 PM
I left CA for TX three months ago and couldn't be happier. I went from Nancy Pelosi as my rep to John Culberson.

I recently graduated law school and worked in the California Senate--so I have seen a lot of this first hand. It saddens me to see the ridiculous state of CA. Those who think things will improve are kidding themselves. Forget guns for a minute--CA's economy is built on unstable (that is being generous) foundations. The state is run by incompetent politicians (and I believe term limits are partially to blame for that). The laws and regulations are not business friendly. There is a massive effort to legitimize illegal immigrants--oops I mean "undocumentated migrants". Taxes are too high. Schools spend an ungodly amount per pupil and performance is a joke. The U.C. and C.S.U. systems are being dismantled. Spending is out of control. People have have an unbelievable sense of entitlement. Busy bodies run everything, from the government to the local HOA.

I applaud those taking a stand in CA; but I sincerely believe the battle has already been lost. Good luck to all of you.

I'll Take Oak Run over Oak Cliff anyday , you fools who think Texas is better slay me ,lol .

Purple K
09-02-2009, 4:44 PM
I was born in California 48 short years ago, I've lived in this State the entire time. I've travelled the Country from coast-to-coast. I've seen a lot of things in other States, some better and some worse than California. I choose to continue to fight for what's right. "They can have my guns when they pry them from my cold dead hands." California was once the best State in the Union and it can become the best again.... If we fight for it! It's up to the good people of California to stand up and be heard!!! "Quiters never win and winners never quit!!!

Gator Monroe
09-02-2009, 4:48 PM
I was born in California 48 short years ago, I've lived in this State the entire time. I've travelled the Country from coast-to-coast. I've seen a lot of things in other States, some better and some worse than California. I choose to continue to fight for what's right. "They can have my guns when they pry them from my cold dead hands." California was once the best State in the Union and it can become the best again.... If we fight for it! It's up to the good people of California to stand up and be heard!!! "Quiters never win and winners never quit!!!

I bought my first home in Texas in 86 and went to both First & 12th grades there (Played 5A football there) travel there often and have relitives all over the state , but NO ONE can convince me that Texas is better than California.

LAK Supply
09-02-2009, 5:16 PM
i still got a good old wood burning, global warming, tree killing fireplace in my home :D

Haha... yeah... but try putting one in a new home in half of CA... it's a no-no.

JBird33
09-02-2009, 5:31 PM
I bought my first home in Texas in 86 and went to both First & 12th grades there (Played 5A football there) travel there often and have relitives all over the state , but NO ONE can convince me that Texas is better than California.

I am no fan of Texas, but anytime you say the words "NO ONE can convince me" you are pretty much admitting unwillingness to listen and close mindedness...so why should anyone else listen to you?

Gator Monroe
09-02-2009, 5:53 PM
I am no fan of Texas, but anytime you say the words "NO ONE can convince me" you are pretty much admitting unwillingness to listen and close mindedness...so why should anyone else listen to you?

Because if I move anywhere but Shasta County it will be Marbella Spain or Tel Aviv in the tiny Jewish State (Is that open minded enough for you )

jhova98040
09-02-2009, 6:45 PM
I'll Take Oak Run over Oak Cliff anyday , you fools who think Texas is better slay me ,lol .

I don't know where oak cliff or oak run are, but I am glad you like your home.

Edit: and I am the first to state that CA is among the most beautiful places on Earth; it is just filled run by the biggest morons.

jhova98040
09-02-2009, 6:49 PM
It's a bit more complicated than that.

On the one hand, legal victories can impact popular opinion, especially if they are coordinated with other tactics.

On the other hand, relying on the courts to fight your political battles can lead to complacency. (Who would have guessed, before FDR, that the feds could take control of the economy, it was clearly unconstitutional.)

Legal victories could be a catalyst for deeper change but it won't happen by itself.

Like I said twice now I am not only talking about guns. I'll pretend that tom. the Court decides that CA gun laws violate the Constitution--"assault rifles", high cap magazines, concealed carry permits, roster nullified, and NFA weapons rain down from the heavens--still far too many problems in CA for me to stay there as a young man just starting my career. Here in TX I already own a nicer/bigger house near downtown in a major city than I could afford in a second rate suburb of CA. Now I will have to pay more in property taxes than I would in CA; but my car registration and lack of income tax cancel out the increase.

HunterJim
09-02-2009, 7:32 PM
If you compare California to other states In Ruger & Sorens Freedom in the 50 States you will see that we could cure every gun ill in this state and it would still be a horrible place for individual rights. Just jumping over to Arizona would cure most of those, and all the gun problems.

I don't believe the OP is correct, especially as it does not consider a state with almost 40 million people with 9 million immigrants.

jim

Gator Monroe
09-02-2009, 7:39 PM
If you compare California to other states In Ruger & Sorens Freedom in the 50 States you will see that we could cure every gun ill in this state and it would still be a horrible place for individual rights. Just jumping over to Arizona would cure most of those, and all the gun problems.

I don't believe the OP is correct, especially as it does not consider a state with almost 40 million people with 9 million immigrants.

jim
If there are 9 million Illegals in Ca. there are almost 25 million in USA .

ipser
09-02-2009, 7:52 PM
Like I said twice now I am not only talking about guns. I'll pretend that tom. the Court decides that CA gun laws violate the Constitution--"assault rifles", high cap magazines, concealed carry permits, roster nullified, and NFA weapons rain down from the heavens--still far too many problems in CA for me to stay there as a young man just starting my career. Here in TX I already own a nicer/bigger house near downtown in a major city than I could afford in a second rate suburb of CA. Now I will have to pay more in property taxes than I would in CA; but my car registration and lack of income tax cancel out the increase.

Neither am I. Pelosi, your speaker of the house, is currently working with Obama, your president, to nationalize health care.

As with guns, you can obtain some measure of freedom by fleeing CA but the danger remains that CA socialism will follow you home.

BTW, don't get me wrong. I'm all for punishing CA by taking your taxes and business to another state. That is ultimately going to influence CA politics. Things will have to get much worse before they can get better. But just be careful not to think you can leave CA behind by leaving it.

yellowfin
09-02-2009, 8:05 PM
Sadly, CA is not changing [for the positive] even if Calguns gets its realistic wishlist accomplished. CA can change. If CCW is made available to ordinary people in the densely populated areas then the 2nd Amendment cause will have meaning for them: driving 30 minutes to 2 hours to get to a range to shoot a rifle that to them has little use in life other than punching paper is something 90%+ of people will pass on because it's expensive, inconvenient, dangerous, and unfamiliar, whereas a nice sidearm to make night time runs to the grocery store and weekend road trips without getting robbed needs far less justification. Making the gun culture something for everyone will completely turn the tide which is precisely why the other side fights against it like a nest of agitated hornets.

HunterJim
09-03-2009, 2:59 AM
If there are 9 million Illegals in Ca. there are almost 25 million in USA .

Not illegals, immigrants.

These folks come from places with limited personal freedom and think the mess here beats their previous conditions.

jim

jhova98040
09-03-2009, 6:23 AM
CA can change. If CCW is made available to ordinary people in the densely populated areas then the 2nd Amendment cause will have meaning for them: driving 30 minutes to 2 hours to get to a range to shoot a rifle that to them has little use in life other than punching paper is something 90%+ of people will pass on because it's expensive, inconvenient, dangerous, and unfamiliar, whereas a nice sidearm to make night time runs to the grocery store and weekend road trips without getting robbed needs far less justification. Making the gun culture something for everyone will completely turn the tide which is precisely why the other side fights against it like a nest of agitated hornets.

Like I have said several times, I am not only speaking of guns. Even if every person in CA was able to easily and reasonably get a CCWs and all the other gun rights the majority of the nation enjoy CA still has too many other governance/social problems to be a viable home for me. I have chosen to take my tax dollars and skill to a place where they are appreciated. I did not leave, and I doubt most do leave, because of the gun laws. I suspect most of us left because of the total mess that is CA (lack of gun rights are just a small part of that).

locosway
09-03-2009, 6:48 AM
Not illegals, immigrants.

These folks come from places with limited personal freedom and think the mess here beats their previous conditions.

jim

With free handouts, no punishments, and their own advocacy groups... I can see why they want to come.

Gator Monroe
09-03-2009, 7:45 AM
Not illegals, immigrants.

These folks come from places with limited personal freedom and think the mess here beats their previous conditions.

jim

Using the words "think" & "mess here" sound like you have had issues with El Norte FOR SOME TIME ?

jhova98040
09-03-2009, 3:25 PM
Neither am I. Pelosi, your speaker of the house, is currently working with Obama, your president, to nationalize health care.

As with guns, you can obtain some measure of freedom by fleeing CA but the danger remains that CA socialism will follow you home.

BTW, don't get me wrong. I'm all for punishing CA by taking your taxes and business to another state. That is ultimately going to influence CA politics. Things will have to get much worse before they can get better. But just be careful not to think you can leave CA behind by leaving it.

Then we are in agreement. I don't think that because I left CA behind I am safe from CA-style nanny stating. That mindset is not unique to CA and thrives throughout our country. Sadly, the so-called elite has no respect for the values upon which this country was built. There are Democrats from the past who I look up to; but this current group is un-American in my opinion. I heard a great quote the other day--Huge Chavez doesn't know what to do now that Comrade Barry has moved to the left of him...

HunterJim
09-03-2009, 4:32 PM
Using the words "think" & "mess here" sound like you have had issues with El Norte FOR SOME TIME ?

Please explain what you are saying here. I am not following...

jim

ipser
09-03-2009, 6:05 PM
Sadly, the so-called elite has no respect for the values upon which this country was built.

But this will always be true, almost by definition. It's virtually a tautology, which is why I am aghast at those who insist that some set of legal victories will secure our rights once and for all.

"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance."

It's also why the RKBA will forever stick in the craw of those in power, why they will forever conspire to water it down and, ultimately, eliminate it, why you can never let down your guard.

In a way, I feel fortunate to be here in CA on the front lines of the war for liberty, or behind enemy lines if you prefer.

jhova98040
09-03-2009, 6:23 PM
But this will always be true, almost by definition. It's virtually a tautology, which is why I am aghast at those who insist that some set of legal victories will secure our rights once and for all.

"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance."

It's also why the RKBA will forever stick in the craw of those in power, why they will forever conspire to water it down and, ultimately, eliminate it, why you can never let down your guard.

In a way, I feel fortunate to be here in CA on the front lines of the war for liberty, or behind enemy lines if you prefer.

well said.

yellowfin
09-03-2009, 6:50 PM
But this will always be true, almost by definition. It's virtually a tautology, which is why I am aghast at those who insist that some set of legal victories will secure our rights once and for all.

"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance."

It's also why the RKBA will forever stick in the craw of those in power, why they will forever conspire to water it down and, ultimately, eliminate it, why you can never let down your guard.Yet so many in public office elsewhere other than CA do what they can to expand the right to keep and bear arms in their states and with their votes on a national level. Clearly being an elected official does not by necessity make one averse to the 2nd Amendment. It is not at all impossible to have an acceptable amount of power in this country by or alongside a desire to squelch people's rights. Clearly there are states that do not have a desire to tax their people into poverty and subjugate them by stripping their other liberties. How can this be? I for one reject the notion that leftist authoritarianism is inevitable, irreversible, and irresistable. It certainly entrenches itself but it is far from invincible.

jhova98040
09-03-2009, 7:06 PM
Yet so many in public office elsewhere other than CA do what they can to expand the right to keep and bear arms in their states and with their votes on a national level. Clearly being an elected official does not by necessity make one averse to the 2nd Amendment. It is not at all impossible to have an acceptable amount of power in this country by or alongside a desire to squelch people's rights. Clearly there are states that do not have a desire to tax their people into poverty and subjugate them by stripping their other liberties. How can this be? I for one reject the notion that leftist authoritarianism is inevitable, irreversible, and irresistable. It certainly entrenches itself but it is far from invincible.


It isn't just the left... Republicans have done their fair share of damage. And clearly every elected official is not part of the problem; but enough in powerful positions able to "influence" legislation and regulation are hostile to liberty.

Texas Boy
09-03-2009, 10:00 PM
Originally Posted by ipser
But this will always be true, almost by definition. It's virtually a tautology, which is why I am aghast at those who insist that some set of legal victories will secure our rights once and for all.

"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance."

It's also why the RKBA will forever stick in the craw of those in power, why they will forever conspire to water it down and, ultimately, eliminate it, why you can never let down your guard.

In a way, I feel fortunate to be here in CA on the front lines of the war for liberty, or behind enemy lines if you prefer.

Very well said!

Originally Posted by yellowfin
Yet so many in public office elsewhere other than CA do what they can to expand the right to keep and bear arms in their states and with their votes on a national level. Clearly being an elected official does not by necessity make one averse to the 2nd Amendment. It is not at all impossible to have an acceptable amount of power in this country by or alongside a desire to squelch people's rights. Clearly there are states that do not have a desire to tax their people into poverty and subjugate them by stripping their other liberties. How can this be? I for one reject the notion that leftist authoritarianism is inevitable, irreversible, and irresistable. It certainly entrenches itself but it is far from invincible.

Good points. But is leftist authoritarianism a natural consequence of dense population? From my perspective it appears densely populated regions have poor individual rights, and sparsely populated areas have a much more "libertarian" philosophy. This pattern exists both within the US and to an extent, in "free" countries worldwide.

It seems logical to me that as population density rises, the need to control the population becomes greater. Example - when we all lived on 1000 acre ranches, who cared if you shot your gun on the porch. But when you and I live in adjoining apartments, it certainly is a concern if the guy next door wants to practice his pistol shooting in the living room - even if he uses a silencer. And sooner or later - some nut is going to do just that, put a hole through the neighbors wall, and then someone says "hey, that should be against the law!". So suddenly we perceive a need for all types of restrictive laws that weren't necessary in a less dense society.

I honestly feel that a dense society is our greatest threat to liberty. Since a large percentage of the leftist socialist are also "save the whales" types - we should be able to convince them that massive immigration (legal or illegal) and the resulting dense society is bad for the environment.

Capt. Speirs
09-03-2009, 10:14 PM
I used to say; "the heck with it, I am out of here" but my wife put the kibosh on that, lol. Seriously, we need to stay and fight, not just for us but for the rest of the nation. Vote out and kick out those who are not playing fair.

Pvt. Cowboy
09-03-2009, 11:07 PM
I'm going to NV as well. Probably Carson City area.

Go south 20 more mins to Minden/Gardnerville and commute to Carson:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/MindXpand/RZb0Drk14UI/AAAAAAAAAj4/HLeDF9c4y_o/9993.jpg

hoffmang
09-03-2009, 11:30 PM
Go south 20 more mins to Minden/Gardnerville and commute to Carson:


Been keeping an eye out for a nice property right in that area for the second home/ranch...

-Gene

H Paul Payne
09-03-2009, 11:33 PM
Been keeping an eye out for a nice property right in that area for the second home/ranch...

-Gene
Why don't you visit my area in Montana??

Paul

artherd
09-04-2009, 12:06 AM
Just make sure it's near an airport we can pull a G550 in and out of.

Been keeping an eye out for a nice property right in that area for the second home/ranch...

-Gene

Merle
09-04-2009, 12:06 AM
Been keeping an eye out for a nice property right in that area for the second home/ranch...

-Gene

One of the guys I used to work with in CA sold his house in Fremont and bought about 5 acres of horseland out there.

They're going to be putting up a Wal-Mart too.

Good area. Less snow compared to the top of Kingsbury grade (where I'm at).

Bizcuits
09-04-2009, 5:44 AM
Don't get me wrong if I had the money, a job lined up and the woman was willing, I'd be gone... So yes I am a hypocrite, but I've been saying this for a long time.

It's like a bad neighborhood in the city. Everyone moves out, because crime and bad renters move in. Then in a few years, after more of the homes have become rentals a few section eight, all the home prices in the area drop, more of the bad element move in. Give it a few more years and businesses don't want to setup shop. Then what happens? The bad element in that neighbor spills over into the new neighborhoods. Now what? Well everyone sales their house again and moves to the new newer neighborhood.

yellowfin
09-04-2009, 6:13 AM
Very well said!

Good points. But is leftist authoritarianism a natural consequence of dense population? From my perspective it appears densely populated regions have poor individual rights, and sparsely populated areas have a much more "libertarian" philosophy. This pattern exists both within the US and to an extent, in "free" countries worldwide.

It seems logical to me that as population density rises, the need to control the population becomes greater. Example - when we all lived on 1000 acre ranches, who cared if you shot your gun on the porch. But when you and I live in adjoining apartments, it certainly is a concern if the guy next door wants to practice his pistol shooting in the living room - even if he uses a silencer. And sooner or later - some nut is going to do just that, put a hole through the neighbors wall, and then someone says "hey, that should be against the law!". So suddenly we perceive a need for all types of restrictive laws that weren't necessary in a less dense society.

I honestly feel that a dense society is our greatest threat to liberty. Since a large percentage of the leftist socialist are also "save the whales" types - we should be able to convince them that massive immigration (legal or illegal) and the resulting dense society is bad for the environment. Just to hazard a guess, I'd say that densely populated areas attract authoritarian politicians and systems not because of a need to control mass numbers of people as a requirement but the desire to do so. It's no secret that power is a very strong motivator, so those who are of the ill disposition to be an enemy of liberty find it most to their liking to control as many people as possible. They don't bother with the small places because that's a smaller snack for them. Bloomberg didn't want to be mayor of a 3,000 person town like where I live. He sure could have moved here and done it, but that wouldn't impress him very much. To get the most power he wanted to be mayor over 12 million people, so that's what he went after and got it.

ipser
09-04-2009, 6:16 AM
Yet so many in public office elsewhere other than CA do what they can to expand the right to keep and bear arms in their states and with their votes on a national level. ... I for one reject the notion that leftist authoritarianism is inevitable, irreversible, and irresistable. It certainly entrenches itself but it is far from invincible.

Keep in mind, though, that this is largely the result of a couple decades of relatively intense pro-RKBA activisim.

So when I argue that it it "inevitable", I mean simply that it is the default direction that the "elites" will take without "eternal vigilance" on the part of gun owners and freedom lovers generally. As for "irreversible, and irresistable", we may never know how close we came to the situation that now prevails in ther ango countries where the loss of the RKBA does, indeed, appear to be irreversible.

HunterJim
09-04-2009, 6:38 AM
Why don't you visit my area in Montana??

Paul

I was looking at Montana until my wife read the data on Great Falls, you know the part where it has 162 days a year that the temp falls below freezing (32 F).

jim

trashman
09-04-2009, 11:18 AM
Just make sure it's near an airport we can pull a G550 in and out of.

KMEV is right there...7400ft runway, 4707ft in elevation.

A 550 has a takeoff distance of ~5500 ft IIRC; so calculating for density altitude will make takeoff fully loaded close on a hot Nevada day...

--Neill