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mmartin
08-28-2009, 7:56 PM
hi,
I'm new here and did a quick search but couldn't find any info that addressed my specific question...

My hubby used to have an FFL, he let it go inactive (closed it?) more than 9 years ago. He has guns he purchased with the business (a sole proprietership DBA I think which held the FFL) when it was active, they were transfered legally to the business at the time. He has not re-registered those guns in his name.

he's being told they are illegal unregistered guns since they are not registered to him.

He says there is no legal requirement to register since they have not changed hands, and he was the sole proprieter of the FFL.

so... my question is, is there any law that directly addresses this? case precedents?

any help would be deeply appreciated.
Megan

Blue
08-28-2009, 8:02 PM
I think if they were pistols that weren't on the safe list he might have alittle trouble figuring everything out. I know that Target Masters has a ton of guns that the owner bought using the shops FFL, and never transferred them into his name. When the safe handgun list came out, he didn't transfer them intime so they're non-transferrable to the shop owner. Who's telling him they're not legal and what kind of guns are they? Rifles aren't registered unless they're something special like an "assault weapon".

thedrickel
08-28-2009, 8:11 PM
Long guns needed to be logged out to him. Handguns needed to be DROS'd and logged out to him.

bwiese
08-28-2009, 8:13 PM
Very dim memory - believe back in the 90s CA law was amended such that guns that remained in FFL's inventory after FFL license terminated did revert to owner.

mmartin
08-28-2009, 8:14 PM
he has both hand and long guns in this indeterminate state, but it's the handguns in question. I believe they are all legal (not prohibited in CA) just not registered to him personally. the "who's telling" would be san diego county sherrif.

mmartin
08-28-2009, 8:16 PM
Very dim memory - believe back in the 90s CA law was amended such that guns that remained in FFL's inventory after FFL license terminated did revert to owner.
that sounds like exactly the info I need... any thoughts on where I'd look for that? I've been searching the CA penal code and "dangerous weapons laws" on-line and have not come up with anything... would really love a lead, either to laws or the correct language to be searching for... thx, megan

MP301
08-28-2009, 8:19 PM
Uh, write or call the ATF/CA DOJ. They will tell you. I think Bill is right, I heard that a long time ago that they reverted...but couldnt tell you for sure...

mmartin
08-28-2009, 8:29 PM
Long guns needed to be logged out to him. Handguns needed to be DROS'd and logged out to him.
hi, is that in the statutes? or expected practice? trying to nail down the exact law and language if possible...
thanks, megan

mmartin
08-28-2009, 8:30 PM
Uh, write or call the ATF/CA DOJ. They will tell you. I think Bill is right, I heard that a long time ago that they reverted...but couldnt tell you for sure...
didn't know who to call and ask... I will do that on Monday, thank you.

mmartin
08-28-2009, 9:14 PM
ok, here's some info... this is the 2005 version. would *love* to get the version that was in place at the time he disbanded... maybe 1999 or so?

anyway, here's the current reference:
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/index.htm

478.57 Discontinuance of business.

(a) Where a firearm or ammunition business is either discontinued or succeeded by a new owner, the owner of the business discontinued or succeeded shall within 30 days thereof furnish to the Chief, National Licensing Center notification of the discontinuance or succession. (See
also § 478.127.)

(b) Since section 922(v), Title 18, U.S.C., makes it unlawful to transfer or
possess a semiautomatic assault weapon, except as provided in the law, any licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer intending to discontinue business shall, prior to going out of business, transfer in compliance with the provisions of this part any semiautomatic assault weapon manufactured or imported after September 13, 1994, to a person
specified in § 478.40(b), or, subject to the provisions of §§ 478.40(c) and 478.132, a licensed manufacturer, a licensed importer, or a licensed dealer.

(c) Since section 922(w), Title 18, U.S.C., makes it unlawful to transfer or
possess a large capacity ammunition feeding device, except as provided in the
law, any person who manufactures, imports, or deals in such devices and who
intends to discontinue business shall, prior to going out of business, transfer in compliance with the provisions of this part any large capacity ammunition feeding device manufactured after September 13, 1994, to a person specified in § 478.40a(b), or, subject to the provisions of §§ 478.40a(c) and 478.132, a person who manufactures, imports, or deals in such devices.

§ 478.127 Discontinuance of business
Where a licensed business is discontinued and succeeded by a new licensee, the records prescribed by this subpart shall appropriately reflect such facts and shall be delivered to the successor. Where discontinuance of the business is absolute, the records shall be delivered within 30 days following the business discontinuance to the ATF Out-of-Business Records Center, Spring Mills Office Park, 2029 Stonewall Jackson Drive, Falling Waters, West Virginia 25419, or to any ATF office in the division in which the business was
located: Provided, however, Where State law or local ordinance requires the delivery of records to other responsible authority, the Chief, National licensing Center may arrange for the delivery of the records required by this subpart to such authority:
Provided further, That where a licensed business is discontinued and succeeded by a new licensee, the records may be delivered within 30 days following the business discontinuance to the ATF OutofBusiness Records Center or to any ATF office in the division in which the business was located.



now if I can only figure out what all that means...

Librarian
08-28-2009, 9:30 PM
.57 (a) says you have to notify BATF you have gone out of business.

You can ignore (b) and (c) - those sunset with the AWB in 2004, so this version you have pre-dates that.


.127 says, I think, that if the business just stopped, the records were supposed to go to the out of business record center; if the business were sold, the new FFL owner would keep them, and turn them in when -he- quit the biz.

Doesn't talk about the left over guns, though.

The BATF FAQ (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#d3) does say (D3) Does a dealer have to execute ATF Form 4473 to take a weapon out of the dealer’s inventory for his or her own use? [Back]

No. However, the "bound book" must reflect the disposition of the firearm from business inventory to personal use. so it seems that should be/have been pretty simple.

HowardW56
08-28-2009, 9:30 PM
Very dim memory - believe back in the 90s CA law was amended such that guns that remained in FFL's inventory after FFL license terminated did revert to owner.


I remember the same thing, Wasn't there another rule later on that a FFL, just have to notify DOJ that they were transfering the guns from store inventory to personal inventory...

mmartin
08-28-2009, 9:41 PM
also this for collectors (NFA)

NFA Firearms Other Than Machineguns. When a Special (Occupational) Taxpayer goes out of business as a dealer in NFA firearms and the business
is a sole proprietor, the proprietor may continue to possess firearms registered
to the business. The proprietor should record the disposition of the firearms
by the business to the individual proprietor in the acquisition and disposition
book. If all firearms business is being discontinued and there is no successor, all records required by the GCA must be delivered within 30 days to the Out-of-Business Records Center (see Questions C5-C7, later in this publication).
Subsequent transfers of the registered weapons are subject to all the provisions of the NFA and GCA.

Librarian
08-28-2009, 9:47 PM
DOJ's FAQ (http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dlrfaqs.php#27G) for dealers says

What is required if a dealer closes a firearms business?

The dealer must write a letter indicating the CFD and the effective date of the closure to: DOJ Firearms Licensing and Permits Unit (FLPU), P.O. Box 920200, Sacramento, CA 94203-0200. The dealer is required to retain completed DROS forms for three years from the date of sale, after which they may be destroyed. The dealer should contact the BATF for federal requirements for closing a firearms business.

And the rest of the 'dealer disposes to him/herself' seems to be in PC 12078, looks like (k)(5) and (n).

Honest, that looks like spaghetti to me; I just hate the 12070 block of PC.

mmartin
08-28-2009, 9:47 PM
ok, so I'm pretty sure the hubby said the guns were transfered to personal inventory in the book... that's good news.
disposition of the book to DOJ... hm. don't know about that one, gonna have to find out.

thanks