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View Full Version : Muzzle device for a new 14.5" AR upper?


Leesan82
08-28-2009, 2:28 PM
While I have carried an M4 during my tour, I'm new to ARs and I'm looking to build one similar to the one Uncle Sam provided me.

My question is as title said, what kind of muzzle device for a new 14.5" upper.

Is it any type (muzzle brake, flash hider, etc) as long as it make the barrel 16"+ permanently attached?

I've been looking at SDI extended A2, Surefire FA556/MB556, and Vortex. Steer me in the right direction Calgunners.

EBR Works
08-28-2009, 2:36 PM
A barrel that is less than 16" must have a permanently attached muzzle device to bring the length from the bolt face to at least 16" to meet Federal guidelines. The choices are many...

If you are going to go with a bullet button lock/10 round mag solution, you can choose any device. If you want to go featureless and drop mags/use pre-ban normal caps, you can only use a brake not classified as a FH.

You also have to deal with the 30" OAL of the weapon in it's shortest configuration issue unique to Cali. If your barrel meets the 16" requirement, whatever you do the meet the 30" OAL requirement does not have to be permanent.

Noobert
08-28-2009, 2:38 PM
the vortex is a great one to add

mds2004
08-28-2009, 2:45 PM
What about PWS FSC556?

EBR Works
08-28-2009, 2:50 PM
What about PWS FSC556?

That would be a great choice for a featured build since it is a FH and brake combo. I have one on an AK pistol and it is phenomenally effective. Expensive but good looking...

http://www.skdtac.com/v/vspfiles/photos/PWS.103-2T.jpg

mds2004
08-28-2009, 2:51 PM
That would be a great choice for a featured build since it is a FH and brake combo. I have one on an AK pistol and it is phenomenally effective. Expensive though...

I just installed it on my newest build but have not been able to shoot with it yet :(

EBR Works
08-28-2009, 2:55 PM
I just installed it on my newest build but have not been able to shoot with it yet :(

You're going to like it!

Leesan82
08-28-2009, 3:08 PM
Thank you for the info impactco.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=18711/Product/AR_15_M16_G6_A2_VORTEX_FLASH_HIDER

Per this Brownells page, it states a 14.5" barrel with Vortex attached is 16.1", and it also states the lenth of SE Vortex flash hider is 2.31"

So I assume any muzzle device with a lenth over 2.30" will be good to go on a featured build?

EBR Works
08-28-2009, 3:09 PM
Thank you for the info impactco.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=18711/Product/AR_15_M16_G6_A2_VORTEX_FLASH_HIDER

Per this Brownells page, it states a 14.5" barrel with Vortex attached is 16.1", and it also states the lenth of SE Vortex flash hider is 2.31"

So I assume any muzzle device with a lenth over 2.30" will be good to go on a featured build?

GTG! Just make sure you have the muzzle device permanently attached before you take posession of the upper.

Leesan82
08-28-2009, 3:37 PM
GTG! Just make sure you have the muzzle device permanently attached before you take posession of the upper.

Even if I didn't own (or have owned) any AR rifles or it's lowers?

EBR Works
08-28-2009, 3:40 PM
I'm relatively certain that there is Federal SBR constructive possession risk if you have the upper in it's short barrel state. I might be wrong. Anyone else care to clarify if I'm confused?

rips31
08-28-2009, 3:44 PM
impactco is correct. just keep the barrel at least 16" in 'permanent' length and you won't run afoul of any sbr issues.

djleisure
08-28-2009, 3:45 PM
I believe that only comes into effect if there is any non-pistol lower around to attach it to. ANY lower, doesn't matter if you have a longer upper on it, or maybe even if it's not built up yet... but I've been wrong before...

Q
08-28-2009, 3:46 PM
While I have carried an M4 during my tour, I'm new to ARs and I'm looking to build one similar to the one Uncle Sam provided me.

My question is as title said, what kind of muzzle device for a new 14.5" upper.

Is it any type (muzzle brake, flash hider, etc) as long as it make the barrel 16"+ permanently attached?

I've been looking at SDI extended A2, Surefire FA556/MB556, and Vortex. Steer me in the right direction Calgunners.


I'd go with a KAC QD, it's a little longer than the A2 it might need an extra shim to meet 16", I read that it works from MSTN. The SDI is nice also but I think the KAC QD looks better and closer to the original, it's a little more to.

EBR Works
08-28-2009, 3:46 PM
I would assume to be safe while in possession of a short barreled upper, he would have to possess a pistol lower? Correct?

EBR Works
08-28-2009, 4:03 PM
I found this relevant post:

Well, perhaps we should rephrase your statement a bit, Gene...

CA indeed does have its own contructive possession laws in relation to collections of SBR & SBS & MG parts.

In theory, you could be popped independently by both Feds and CA for contstructive possession of SBR/MG parts (e.g., 10" AR upper and separate AR rifle lower).

For machine guns:


12200. The term "machinegun" as used in this chapter means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can readily be restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. The term also includes any weapon deemed by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms as readily convertible to a machinegun under Chapter 53 (commencing with Section 5801) of Title 26 of the United States Code.

For SBRs:


12020.(c)(2) As used in this section, a "short-barreled rifle" means any of the following:
(A) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(B) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.
(C) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.
(D) Any device which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive.
(E) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

Similar boilerplate for SBSes exists in 12020, too lazy to quote...

rips31
08-28-2009, 4:06 PM
he's talking about building a m4, similar to what he carried in the service. if his bbl is at least 16", it won't be a sbr, assuming he also meets the oal requirement.

EBR Works
08-28-2009, 4:09 PM
But we are discussing the legality of buying a 14.5 barreled upper and later permanently attaching a muzzle device to meet the 16" Federal limit. So one would be in possession of the upper with a short barrel for a period of time. I don't thinks it's legal. Someone tell me if I'm wrong please.

mds2004
08-28-2009, 4:15 PM
Just have your barrel and FH shipped to adco.
http://www.adcofirearms.com/shopservices/shop_.cfm?code=25

Leesan82
08-28-2009, 4:19 PM
impactco is right as that is my current plan.

If I am reading the 12020. correctly, since I would only be in possession of an upper, without a lower receiver or even a bolt assambly group, it doesn't classify as a SBR.

I mean, that is what the last sentance of 12020. trying to point out, right?
may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person

rips31
08-28-2009, 4:19 PM
to me, this says that he's going to buy a 14.5" barreled upper and muzzle device, have the muzzle device perm attached, and then sent to him. you and i were just making sure that his bbl was 16" total. not sure where the thought of him taking possession of a pre-modified bbl came from.

While I have carried an M4 during my tour, I'm new to ARs and I'm looking to build one similar to the one Uncle Sam provided me.

My question is as title said, what kind of muzzle device for a new 14.5" upper.

Is it any type (muzzle brake, flash hider, etc) as long as it make the barrel 16"+ permanently attached?

I've been looking at SDI extended A2, Surefire FA556/MB556, and Vortex. Steer me in the right direction Calgunners.

but to answer the op's question, i like the vortex. although, wilson tactical came out with something similar, albeit 3-prong, instead of the vortex's 4-prong. no idea how good the wilson is.

djleisure
08-28-2009, 4:21 PM
impactco was actually speculating that what you would be doing is illegal - I was speculating that it would legal to own the 14" upper as long as you do NOT possess a non-pistol lower...

EBR Works
08-28-2009, 4:24 PM
It's the first part that could be a problem:

Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subparagraphs (A) to (C), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.

rips31
08-28-2009, 4:24 PM
hrm...then i guess i mis-read the intention of your post.

i'm not sure how you'd get ahold of a 14.5" bbl on an upper. regardless of whether you own a lower/parts/whatever, it's probably safer to just buy a non-sbr configured upper.

impactco is right as that is my current plan.

If I am reading the 12020. correctly, since I would only be in possession of an upper, without a lower receiver or even a bolt assambly group, it doesn't classify as a SBR.

I mean, that is what the last sentance of 12020. trying to point out, right?
may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person

djleisure
08-28-2009, 4:26 PM
That's the thing, it is VERY easy to get a 14.5" bbl on an upper. It is not illegal to take possession of one and most places will sell and ship you one with the caveat that "all federal restrictions apply" ...meaning that you need to be in legal possession of it.

hrm...then i guess i mis-read the intention of your post.

i'm not sure how you'd get ahold of a 14.5" bbl on an upper. regardless of whether you own a lower/parts/whatever, it's probably safer to just buy a non-sbr configured upper.

EBR Works
08-28-2009, 4:41 PM
So, can anyone that knows for certain please clarify based upon Cali and Federal law if it is legal to possess a sub 16" assembled upper regardless or whether or not you possess an appropriate lower. Don't answer if it is just your opinion, please. Facts only. Thanks.

djleisure
08-28-2009, 4:43 PM
Yeah, I'd actually like to know for sure as well... I'm gonna post this over in the "2A and Law" thread - it may never get found here, plus we should return this thread to it's regularly scheduled programming. :)

Plisk
08-28-2009, 4:50 PM
Owning an SBR upper without owning a pistol lower but you do own a rifle lower is bad. It's contructive posession. Bad

To the OP, I have the extended A2 and I love it. I highly reccomend it.

Leesan82
08-28-2009, 4:53 PM
Right, let's get back to muzzle devices.

That PWS unit looks interesting.
Anyone know the lenth of KAC's QD flash hider?

THT
08-28-2009, 5:04 PM
Owning an SBR upper without owning a pistol lower but you do own a rifle lower is bad. It's contructive posession. Bad

To the OP, I have the extended A2 and I love it. I highly reccomend it.

This.

mds2004
08-28-2009, 5:16 PM
Right, let's get back to muzzle devices.

That PWS unit looks interesting.
Anyone know the lenth of KAC's QD flash hider?

Just look how effective it is :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI4kVvRpDIc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdX5I2e6L7Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnae8_N_BiM

THT
08-28-2009, 5:35 PM
Just look how effective it is :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LI4kVvRpDIc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdX5I2e6L7Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnae8_N_BiM

Really looking forward to my next two builds sporting one :D

Leesan82
08-28-2009, 7:00 PM
Can't seem to find a SDI extended A2 for sale anywhere... anyone have a lead?

Plisk
08-28-2009, 7:08 PM
http://www.sabredefencestore.com/

I ordered mine direct from Sabre.

Leesan82
08-28-2009, 7:56 PM
Ok, i feel silly now... looked bunch of online sellers but didn't check Sebre Defence. Thanks.

hawk1
08-28-2009, 9:11 PM
Do some research into the AAC Blackout.

http://www.advanced-armament.com/product.aspx?pid=117

http://www.advanced-armament.com/repository/product/fh_18t.jpg

mds2004
08-29-2009, 1:37 PM
That would be a great choice for a featured build since it is a FH and brake combo. I have one on an AK pistol and it is phenomenally effective. Expensive but good looking...

http://www.skdtac.com/v/vspfiles/photos/PWS.103-2T.jpg

Actually, couldn't it be on a featureless build too? Here is a letter from ATF deeming it a non flash suppressing device. http://www.primaryweapons.com/UserFiles/File/FSC556_web.pdf

EBR Works
08-29-2009, 1:59 PM
Interesting, question is....will California honor that?

Skammy
08-29-2009, 6:36 PM
I have a 14.5 barrel with a KAC hider and I measures something like 16.1..
Randall pinned it

jayzx10r
08-29-2009, 10:03 PM
My 14.5" barreled AR has a HK91 flash hider. OAL is 16.1". Fits the bayo perfectly too!!