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eltee
08-28-2009, 12:04 PM
Shipping a gun to Illinois. FFL there is asking for a copy of my DL / State ID in addition to a copy of the FFL.

I am inclined not to do so unless it is a legal requirement. Anyone been requested for personal ID before when doing an FFL to FFL out of state shipping?

billslugg
08-28-2009, 7:08 PM
Shipping a gun to Illinois. FFL there is asking for a copy of my DL / State ID in addition to a copy of the FFL.

I am inclined not to do so unless it is a legal requirement. Anyone been requested for personal ID before when doing an FFL to FFL out of state shipping?

There is no legal requirement other than the license. The FFL holder can ask for anything he wants. If the seller was holding the license illegally, then the buyer would have a picture for the ATF to go by. A single license can be used by many employees in a store. My license, for example, does not have my name on it. It has my company name and an address. The only way I can prove I am legal is to provide the FFL, business license and driver's license. Only with all three of those papers can you determine that I have the right to use that license.

striker3
08-28-2009, 8:21 PM
Well, legally, there is no requirement to have an FFL to ship firearms to another state, as long as the receiver is an FFL, is there? So why would you, as the shipper, have to prove who owns the FFL?

billslugg
08-28-2009, 8:59 PM
Well, legally, there is no requirement to have an FFL to ship firearms to another state, as long as the receiver is an FFL, is there? So why would you, as the shipper, have to prove who owns the FFL?

I was under the impression that interstate transfers had to have an FFL at each end.

If not, then you would only need to satisfy yourself as to who the seller is.

tenpercentfirearms
08-28-2009, 9:45 PM
Shipping a gun to Illinois. FFL there is asking for a copy of my DL / State ID in addition to a copy of the FFL.

I am inclined not to do so unless it is a legal requirement. Anyone been requested for personal ID before when doing an FFL to FFL out of state shipping?

I wouldn't do it. Your FFL is all you need. Just send them your FFL and don't send the license. Then simply ignore them if they ask again. I bet the odds of them sending the gun back are slim to none.

I really hate dealers that require more bull crap than the actual law. Get over yourselves!

striker3
08-29-2009, 7:03 AM
I was under the impression that interstate transfers had to have an FFL at each end.

If not, then you would only need to satisfy yourself as to who the seller is.

This is from the ATF Firearms FAQ http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

So no, legally, there does not need to be a FFL on each end. But, the receiving FFL can ask for whatever documentation he wants.

eltee
08-29-2009, 5:25 PM
I just emailed him a copy of the FFL. Didn't say anything about the DL. Haven't heard back so I presume he is good 2 go. He may have missed my FFL in the box and assumed it was a private party shipping a gun to his shop. I think it is all worked out.

tenpercentfirearms
08-30-2009, 9:06 AM
I just emailed him a copy of the FFL. Didn't say anything about the DL. Haven't heard back so I presume he is good 2 go. He may have missed my FFL in the box and assumed it was a private party shipping a gun to his shop. I think it is all worked out.

Well done.

erh
09-03-2009, 9:09 PM
We do not have a specific requirement (Legal) for this info, however I do
also ask for this info from folks as a common practice... The reason was hit right on the head above, and really...
BTW - Why would anyone have a hard time doing it (Providing what the receiving FFL requests for his records...)
anyway..?!? We do have the legal right to ask for such things for the purpose of thorough records.

Just my .02

E! :rolleyes: ;)

tenpercentfirearms
09-04-2009, 7:01 AM
We do not have a specific requirement (Legal) for this info, however I do
also ask for this info from folks as a common practice... The reason was hit right on the head above, and really...
BTW - Why would anyone have a hard time doing it (Providing what the receiving FFL requests for his records...)
anyway..?!? We do have the legal right to ask for such things for the purpose of thorough records.

Just my .02

E! :rolleyes: ;)

You have a right to ask whatever you want. I have a right to not send you my DL since you only need my FFL and the easy check system for the Feds. Really, you don't even need my CFD or a CFLC nymber either as that is my misdemeanor.

Personally, my pet peeve are FFLs that have more strenuous regulations than the goverment. Why make your life more difficult?

halifax
09-04-2009, 7:18 AM
...

Personally, my pet peeve are FFLs that have more strenuous regulations than the goverment. Why make your life more difficult?

You got that right. ATF eZCheck and a copy of the FFL is sufficient to prove legitimacy since you are only allowed to send the firearm to the address on the FFL as verified by the eZCheck.

kemasa
09-04-2009, 11:48 AM
Actually, I have been told that the firearm can be shipped to another location, but even if that is true, it is a bad idea.

The reason to ask for more is to protect yourself since the BATF won't care if you followed all the rules if there is a problem. I don't ask for more in that case as the FFL and eZCheck is really enough, although business permits are a good idea to see. What I do is to log where I send each copy of my FFL, put a serial number on it and encrypt it if I send it by email. This is not required, but I got a call from the BATF to trace a firearm and I have never received the firearm and had never done business with the company they told me. Having this additional information and being able to show who has a valid copy of my FFL should help if someone claims to have shipped a firearm to me and have not.

ke6guj
09-04-2009, 1:09 PM
Yes, it can be shipped to another location, but as kemasa mentioned, not the best idea. AFAIK, many/most FFLs will only ship to those locations specifically listed on the FFL.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/newsletter/0306fflnewsletter.pdf
Can an FFL ship a firearm to an address
that is different from the business
premises address identified on the
license?

Yes. Neither the GCA nor its implementing
regulations contain specific provisions,
requiring that an FFL have firearms shipped
to their licensed business premises when
receiving firearms. To that end, an FFL may
lawfully receive firearms at their mailing
address, storage location, or other address
where the licensee intends to ensure safe
and secure receipt of the firearms.
ATF Industry Circular 74-13 outlines
“Guidelines for Verifying Identity and
Licensed Status of Transferee.” It states, in
part, that “when the shipment is to be made
to an address other than the transferee’s
premises as listed on his or her license or on
his or her certified list, it is suggested that
the transferor verify the address as being
that of the transferee.” Furthermore,
pursuant to section 922 (b) of the GCA, it is
unlawful to ship a firearm interstate to an
unlicensed individual.
We encourage that FFLs verify to the best of
their ability that the shipping address is a
valid location where the licensee is prepared
to receive and subsequently possess the
firearms. In addition, if an FFL has customers
that require frequent delivery of firearms to
an address other than their licensed business
premises, we recommend that the shipping
address be placed on file with ATF’s Federal
Firearms Licensing Center (FFLC) as an
additional mailing address.
It should be noted that any FFL receiving
firearms at locations other than their
licensed premises must maintain accurate
records of acquisition and disposition of
firearms. The acquisition of firearms must be
recorded by the close of the following
business day or, if commercial records are
maintained, within 7 days following the
acquisition (See 27 CFR 478.125(e) and (g)).
In the event of an ATF compliance
inspection, the FFL must make all records
and firearms inventory available for
inspection. In addition, if the location is
used as a continuous off-site storage facility,
the FFL must notify the FFLC so that the
address can be placed on file.

eltee
09-04-2009, 4:51 PM
This is interesting. Can an FFL ask that a firearm be shipped to an alternate address such as a local "UPS Store" or "Mailboxes, Etc., Inc." type of facility to ensure delivery? These places will accept and sign for packages if you have an account there. If you are expecting a delivery but plan to be closed for a couple days, that would be cool to have an alternate drop zone.

erh
09-05-2009, 7:10 AM
Personally, my pet peeve are FFLs that have more strenuous regulations than the goverment. Why make your life more difficult?

When an individual walks into his local gun shop & asks the counter personnel for a copy of their FFL, generally they will give you one...
So, when some little Douche Bag Theif walks in and gets that copy, generally it's the same thing. Now, the "Bad Guy" has a copy of an FFL, ships ME a stolen firearm, and I have a stolen firearm in MY safe, for which I can get endless grief. I would much prefer to avert the attention to the Bad guy, wouldn't you..?!?
I promise you that we FFL holders that may or may not ask for this extra info are not in any way shape or form trying to infringe upon your rights or place additional restrictions on you or your freedoms... Those of us that do are, in most cases I'm sure, just trying to enhance OUR abilities to get the Feds to scoop up the bad guys and maintain our OWN freedom(s). Literally in some cases...
We love this industry, more than some allot of the time, so try to have a little perspective... Or not, that's up to you.

halifax
09-05-2009, 8:06 AM
When an individual walks into his local gun shop & asks the counter personnel for a copy of their FFL, generally they will give you one... So, when some little Douche Bag Theif walks in and gets that copy, generally it's the same thing. Now, the "Bad Guy" has a copy of an FFL, ships ME a stolen firearm, and I have a stolen firearm in MY safe, for which I can get endless grief. I would much prefer to avert the attention to the Bad guy, wouldn't you..?!?
I promise you that we FFL holders that may or may not ask for this extra info are not in any way shape or form trying to infringe upon your rights or place additional restrictions on you or your freedoms... Those of us that do are, in most cases I'm sure, just trying to enhance OUR abilities to get the Feds to scoop up the bad guys and maintain our OWN freedom(s). Literally in some cases...
We love this industry, more than some allot of the time, so try to have a little perspective... Or not, that's up to you.

Wow. The thought of giving a copy of my FFL to someone I didn't know never crossed my mind. I keep a record of everyone I send/give a copy of my FFL to. Now the OP makes more sense. Of course, the copy of the DL could be a fake also if it is a scumbag involved. :p

tenpercentfirearms
09-05-2009, 9:22 AM
When an individual walks into his local gun shop & asks the counter personnel for a copy of their FFL, generally they will give you one...
So, when some little Douche Bag Theif walks in and gets that copy, generally it's the same thing. Now, the "Bad Guy" has a copy of an FFL, ships ME a stolen firearm, and I have a stolen firearm in MY safe, for which I can get endless grief. I would much prefer to avert the attention to the Bad guy, wouldn't you..?!?
I promise you that we FFL holders that may or may not ask for this extra info are not in any way shape or form trying to infringe upon your rights or place additional restrictions on you or your freedoms... Those of us that do are, in most cases I'm sure, just trying to enhance OUR abilities to get the Feds to scoop up the bad guys and maintain our OWN freedom(s). Literally in some cases...
We love this industry, more than some allot of the time, so try to have a little perspective... Or not, that's up to you.

I also don't hand copies of my FFL over to random people who come into the shop. I fax it or mail it myself.

Second, if a crook is smart enough to go get a copy of an FFL and claim to be a dealer and ship a gun, are they going to temporarely go stupid and send in their real copy of a DL along with their fake FFL? Are you serious?

I am not the cops nor will I pretend to be. If I am doing a transfer on a gun and it ends up stolen, I honestly don't care. I didn't pay for the gun and I am going to return it to law enforcement so it can be returned to the rightful owner. The cops can ask me all of the questions they want and I have all of the answers. I am not trafficing stolen guns so I have nothing to hide.

I guess I could see where asking for a business license and all of the other crap might disuade someone from just using an unathorized FFL, but again, I don't care if I receive a stolen gun and it gets flagged. That is a good thing. My customer might not like it, but hey, that is why you buy guns from me instead of from people off the web.

In the case of long guns though, it won't get flagged, so why not only require this documentation from long guns only and not handguns?

I am all for doing things to protect yourself, but make sure they really protect you. Most of the time it is nonsensical busy work that really doesn't make anyone safer or less liable for anything. And that is what frustrates me.

kemasa
09-05-2009, 11:22 AM
A bad guy would not have the correct copy of the DL, so they could not provide it. First off, giving a copy of you FFL to non-FFLs is not a good idea, giving a copy to someone who walks into your shop is a seriously bad idea. You should only give a copy of your FFL to a FFL who is going to ship you a firearm or who you are doing business with.

ontargetrange
09-06-2009, 9:56 PM
Doing the FFL transfers for a living I can give you my perspective on this ---

The last ATF Audit I was told that a certain (don't remember which one) section in the WHITE book requires that I enter into my log book all "correct" information about who and what I rec'd to ship to where -- I have to get "Proper" ID with significant amount of information and a COPY of that ID to have as my data backup

Just more work for me to cover my tailend if something goes wrong or the firearm suddenly becomes a hot item. Which has happened to me after the gun showed up in the other State and was registered -- it bounced out of the system and I got a visit from an agent looking for hard data --

I keep hearing ALL kinds of stories about the transfer requirements and just who does what -- I have delt with out of State FFL's that only rec'v from an FFL -- other don't care where it comes from just so long as a copy of a good ID shows up with it -- I do the same -- send a current valid government ID of some kind and I am good to log it in and do the transfer.

Sorry there is no STANDARD method for FFL's to follow -- It has caused some issues with me as well and I hope that my customers find it easier to work with us and what restrictions we have put into place at the shop -- until the ATF changes the rules we remain in the state of frustration

halifax
09-07-2009, 1:18 AM
A bad guy would not have the correct copy of the DL, so they could not provide it. First off, giving a copy of you FFL to non-FFLs is not a good idea, giving a copy to someone who walks into your shop is a seriously bad idea. You should only give a copy of your FFL to a FFL who is going to ship you a firearm or who you are doing business with.

If the bad guy is standing in front of you, yes, it would be difficult to pass a fake ID. But aren't we talking about a photocopy here? Scan any DL and photoshop becomes the bad guy's friend. Just saying.

kemasa
09-07-2009, 12:57 PM
Would the bad guy know the correct information to put on the DL? Internet searches can show interesting things.

halifax
09-07-2009, 3:26 PM
Would the receiving FFL know any more of the correct information other than what's on the FFL or eZCheck? Unless the receiving FFL knew or had met the real sending FFL; as long as the name is correct, the picture, DL number, birthdate, and home address could be made-up. None of which are part of eZCheck. I suppose if the receiving FFL is going to take the time to track down the DL information, or shop phone number than it wouldn't work.

halifax
09-07-2009, 4:17 PM
OK, here is an idea. Download the entire FFL list from the eZCheck site. Find the matching License Number. One of the last fields has the phone number associated with the license (on most of them). Call the owner and verify that it is legit. I think that makes more sense than requiring a copy of a DL.

kemasa
09-07-2009, 6:20 PM
If you get a copy of the DL, you can do a search based on the name and see if the address matches what the DL shows. It is really not all that helpful though, but if you have a copy of the DL and it is for the correct person, it would help to show the BATF that you did deal with the correct person. You may not know if it is really the correct person if the FFL is only in a business name.

If the name and address on the FFL matches the ezcheck data, then you should be able to assume that it is legit.

The bottom line, is does it hurt to get a copy of the DL? I think that the answer is no, as it shows that you are trying to ensure that you are doing the right thing. With that said, I don't require a copy of the DL as I check the FFL and often do Internet searches if I have any questions. I will also call the phone number listed with the FFL, which is not always the business number and the FFL is surprised how I called that number.