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View Full Version : Isn't this illegal?


locosway
08-27-2009, 10:48 PM
I just walked out of Turners with my G19. They tied it in a clear plastic bag and I took it to my truck. Once there I removed the lock from inside the case and wrapped it around the handle twice and locked it.

So, during the time from inside Turners to my truck, was I not breaking the law with an unlocked concealed weapon?

Furthermore, most people would drive home with the case unlocked. Isn't that breaking the law as well?

Nessal
08-27-2009, 10:50 PM
Unloaded open carry.

Btw since the bag was clear, it's not concealed.

Also your trunk is considered a locked case so you can have a handgun in the trunk without a case.

PolishMike
08-27-2009, 10:52 PM
Depends on the vehicle. If it was a car with a separate trunk then no need for a lock around the box itself.

locosway
08-27-2009, 10:53 PM
Last time I checked, my truck didn't have a trunk...

Also, the bag was clear, but my gun was in the Glock case which isn't clear.

Nessal
08-27-2009, 10:54 PM
Forgot to mention that it applies in non-school areas.

Nessal
08-27-2009, 10:56 PM
Last time I checked, my truck didn't have a trunk...

Also, the bag was clear, but my gun was in the Glock case which isn't clear.

lol i dont know why i pictured a glock in a sandwich bag because that is what it sounded like from your original post. If it's concealed in a case it has to be locked unless you have a ccw.

PolishMike
08-27-2009, 10:58 PM
Its your responsibility to lock it though, not the government's, not the store's. Having worked at a gun shop, I know people sometimes HATED it when we tried to tell them what to do to stay legal. As far as I'm concerned, if your out of the store, its on you.

locosway
08-27-2009, 10:59 PM
Ok, so you buy a gun, and it comes in a case. You finish the paperwork and they say "Have a good one" and send you on your way. For those few seconds from the store to your trunk (if you had a trunk), you would be illegal.

Now, Turners tied my gun up in a clear plastic bag very tightly. So, I was under the impression they didn't want me to open the gun case in the store. If that's the case, I would have to leave the store just to secure it anyway since the lock was inside the case.

Well, I guess I could have asked to secure it before it went into the bag... But how many people really know how the law works?

Couldn't cops sit in the parking lot and pick off people?

locosway
08-27-2009, 11:00 PM
Its your responsibility to lock it though, not the government's, not the store's. Having worked at a gun shop, I know people sometimes HATED it when we tried to tell them what to do to stay legal. As far as I'm concerned, if your out of the store, its on you.

I'm not putting this on Turners at all. I just think it's funny how it works.

CenterX
08-27-2009, 11:07 PM
No way..
You can walk directly to the vehicle unlocked.
You can not stop off for a coffee along the way, nor window-shop the strip-mall.
Once you are in the Truck it needs to be locked.
You did it.
All of the proper actions are the customers responsibility. Grown people have to be accountable for their own actions.
For now, this is not a NANY state - well fully.
You did good.
Now its is time to get to the range and shoot the heck out of the target.

HondaMasterTech
08-27-2009, 11:20 PM
An exception to the concealed law is transporting a just-purchased firearm to your house, unloaded of course.

leadchucker
08-27-2009, 11:39 PM
If it's concealed in a case it has to be locked unless you have a ccw.

.........AND, the firearm in the case is one that is listed on your CCW (don't forget that little gem).

hoffmang
08-28-2009, 12:17 AM
.........AND, the firearm in the case is one that is listed on your CCW (don't forget that little gem).

What would you be charged with?

(hint, there isn't a penal code against it.)

-Gene

locosway
08-28-2009, 12:19 AM
Would they just revoke your CCW then?

hoffmang
08-28-2009, 12:42 AM
Would they just revoke your CCW then?

Pre Sykes, probably. Post is a different story.

-Gene

artherd
08-28-2009, 1:44 AM
Would they just revoke your CCW then?

Unlikely it would ever come up. If the gun is in AFS, and if your CCW comes back valid, I bet it would be hard to ever have this become an issue.

As Gene mentioned, there's no law limiting CA CCW's scope to any particular gun.

StudioDison
08-28-2009, 5:29 AM
so what if you spilled spaghetti on it? then what?

hawk1
08-28-2009, 8:07 AM
so what if you spilled spaghetti on it? then what?

I agree, people worry about the dumbest things.

leadchucker
08-28-2009, 10:56 AM
We have to worry because of all the dumb laws. It's a PITA. I doubt anyone can know all the law anymore.

leadchucker
08-28-2009, 11:02 AM
What would you be charged with?

(hint, there isn't a penal code against it.)

-Gene

So the firearm(s) listed on a CCW are not the only weapons for which the CCW is valid? IOW, I thought that if the weapon is concealed but not listed on the CCW, then the weapon is being carried illegally because the license doesn't cover it. You bring up an interesting point. Does the CCW exemption say nothing about covering only those weapons for which one qualifies?

mej16489
08-28-2009, 11:18 AM
So the firearm(s) listed on a CCW are not the only weapons for which the CCW is valid? IOW, I thought that if the weapon is concealed but not listed on the CCW, then the weapon is being carried illegally because the license doesn't cover it. You bring up an interesting point. Does the CCW exemption say nothing about covering only those weapons for which one qualifies?


There is no statutory need to 'qualify' with a firearm.

Kid Stanislaus
08-28-2009, 1:01 PM
so what if you spilled spaghetti on it? then what?

Then you'd be mistaken for an Italian and you could be in serious trouble!!

Kid Stanislaus
08-28-2009, 1:03 PM
So the firearm(s) listed on a CCW are not the only weapons for which the CCW is valid? IOW, I thought that if the weapon is concealed but not listed on the CCW, then the weapon is being carried illegally because the license doesn't cover it. You bring up an interesting point. Does the CCW exemption say nothing about covering only those weapons for which one qualifies?

KEEP IN MIND. The law allows the sheriff to make up the rules and at a minimum you could loose your CCW and if an aggressive prosecuter wants to go after you then at a minimum your life is going to be miserable for awhile.

Big Jake
08-28-2009, 1:31 PM
Keep in mind that no LEO would hastle an otherwise law abiding citizen who is walking out of a gun store with his new gun and taking it home. Circumstances of carrying your gun come into play here.

Spirit of the law vs. letter of the law!

TaxAnnihilator
08-28-2009, 1:35 PM
Also, remember, it's not illegal to drive with a dead hooker [illegally stored weapon] in your trunk if your vehicle is in working order and you obey traffic laws! (source: LEO I know)

locosway
08-28-2009, 2:08 PM
I wasn't worried about getting caught for doing something wrong... but just as I walked out those doors I wondered if I was illegal. Then I started to question if there was a school near by... :)

hoffmang
08-28-2009, 2:44 PM
KEEP IN MIND THAT PRE-SYKES. The law allows the sheriff to make up the rules and at a minimum you could loose your CCW and if an aggressive prosecuter wants to go after you then at a minimum your life is going to be miserable for awhile.

Fixed it for ya.

-Gene

allenst65
08-28-2009, 5:35 PM
Pulling this back to the OP's original premise, there is specific code for the dealer's responsibility on delivery.

"12071.(b) A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the following prohibitions and requirements: (3) No firearm shall be delivered: (B) Unless unloaded and securely wrapped or unloaded and in a locked container.
12072.(c) No dealer, whether or not acting pursuant to Section 12082, shall deliver a firearm to a person, as follows: (2) Unless unloaded and securely wrapped or unloaded and in a locked container."

Now, Turners tied my gun up in a clear plastic bag very tightly. So, I was under the impression they didn't want me to open the gun case in the store.

Presumably, Turner's tries to comply with this by using a securely tied (wrapped??) bag at least for on handguns. For longuns, I don't know how they securely wrap the weapon.


Now where I have seen many dealers lack compliance within these same sections are:

"12071.(b) A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the following prohibitions and requirements: (3) No firearm shall be delivered: (C) Unless the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the firearm presents clear evidence of his or her identity and age to the dealer.
12072. (c) No dealer, whether or not acting pursuant to Section 12082, shall deliver a firearm to a person, as follows: (3) Unless the purchaser, transferee, or person being loaned the firearm presents clear evidence of his or her identity and age, as defined in Section 12071, to the dealer."

On several occasions, simply presenting a paid in full receipt and then signing off on the 4473 resulted in the dealer handing the gun over. I called out one of the Turners sales guys a while back asking if he didn't want to check my ID, but he said he didn't have to. I then asked what if I had been burglarized and the sales slip/receipt stolen and then thieves took it to claim the pistol ... without checking ID they'd be handing the pistol over to the thieves. The clerk looked a bit confused then turned to the supervisor asking "we don't have to check ID, do we?" to which he got a simple "of course we do" from the boss. Since then, they've been much better, but I've still seen the pick-up process run rather loosely at some shops.

And then there's this goodie:
"12071.(b) A license is subject to forfeiture for a breach of any of the following prohibitions and requirements: (4) No pistol, revolver, or other firearm or imitation thereof capable of being concealed upon the person, or placard advertising the sale or other transfer thereof, shall be displayed in any part of the premises where it can readily be seen from the outside."

I think many Turners post their weekly ads right on the front door and I know the Turners Orange store has their ads on a wooden A-frame right on the sidewalk outside their door.

Theseus
08-28-2009, 5:51 PM
At first glance you were legal:

12026.2(a)(5) The transportation of a firearm by a person when going
directly to, or coming directly from, a fixed place of business or
private residential property for the purpose of the lawful repair or
the lawful transfer, sale, or loan of that firearm.

But if you continue to read 12026.2 you will see:

12026.2(b) In order for a firearm to be exempted under subdivision (a), while being transported to or from a place, the firearm shall be unloaded, kept in a locked container, as defined in subdivision (d),and the course of travel shall include only those deviations between authorized locations as are reasonably necessary under the circumstances.

This means that you were breaking the law because you were not fully exempt from 12025. You must meet 12026 (a) & (b) to be exempt from 12025.

Meplat
08-28-2009, 6:01 PM
Interesting! So, with a CCW I can CC any pistol, even one not on my permit, and all I need worry about is losing the permit?:43:



Unlikely it would ever come up. If the gun is in AFS, and if your CCW comes back valid, I bet it would be hard to ever have this become an issue.

As Gene mentioned, there's no law limiting CA CCW's scope to any particular gun.

NuGunner
08-28-2009, 6:10 PM
You have to realize that although technically your in violation of the law, per the spirit of the law I wouldn't see you getting arrested for this.

Meplat
08-28-2009, 6:13 PM
Under the conditions set forth in 12026(b) would one not be lawful regardless? This arcane crap is maddening!:TFH:




At first glance you were legal:



But if you continue to read 12026.2 you will see:



This means that you were breaking the law because you were not fully exempt from 12025. You must meet 12026 (a) & (b) to be exempt from 12025.

Meplat
08-28-2009, 6:22 PM
This letter and spirit business is all at the discretion of LE and the DA? Although I have found both to be reasonable in my area, good luck in Frisco!

You have to realize that although technically your in violation of the law, per the spirit of the law I wouldn't see you getting arrested for this.

Theseus
08-28-2009, 6:27 PM
Under the conditions set forth in 12026(b) would one not be lawful regardless? This arcane crap is maddening!:TFH:
Well, if you look, 12025 has no real exemptions for transport.

12026.1 If you are 18+ and legal to own, possess etc. . . then you can have it in your trunk or in a locked container for any reason.

12026.2 Any person, regardless of age or legal to own, possess etc. . . then you can legally transport a concealable firearm to and from those places listed in 12026.2 and be exempt from 12025. This seems helpful, because as long as you are doing one of those prescribed things or are directly to or from you can't be charged with 12025 and it can't be used to enhance another charge!

Shotgun Man
08-28-2009, 6:34 PM
I, too, have wondered if a LEA would post up outside of Turner's, maybe have a plainclothes/undercover inside to tip off the unmarked units outside.

To be safe you gotta put it into a locked container. Don't all new handguns come with a lockable container? Even a one-way zip tie should suffice as a lock. If the gun is being transferred with no container, bring something, even a knapsack may do, and lock it up.

I can see a LEA doing this, the prosecutor filing without second thought, the judge having absolutely no sympathy for the accused, and just for kicks, the media praising the whole operation.

Theseus
08-28-2009, 6:37 PM
I, too, have wondered if a LEA would post up outside of Turner's, maybe have a plainclothes/undercover inside to tip off the unmarked units outside.

To be safe you gotta put it into a locked container. Don't all new handguns come with a lockable container? Even a one-way zip tie should suffice as a lock. If the gun is being transferred with no container, bring something, even a knapsack may do, and lock it up.

I can see a LEA doing this, the prosecutor filing without second thought, the judge having absolutely no sympathy for the accused, and just for kicks, the media praising the whole operation.

LEO's don't want to bite the hand that sells them.

locosway
08-28-2009, 7:36 PM
A ziptie is not a lock per the letter of the law.

I know that most cops if not all would allow one to walk to their car and then secure the firearm. I mean, that is what would be reasonable.

However, I was just wondering if technically... we were breaking the law...

Shotgun Man
08-28-2009, 7:44 PM
A ziptie is not a lock per the letter of the law.



You're probably correct. I stand corrected.

12026.1

(c) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, key lock, combination lock, or similar locking device.

Theseus
08-28-2009, 10:39 PM
Well, I will point out that in my case they are making the exact argument that once I leave the business and in the private property parking lot, I am not exempt from 626.9. . . Meaning I must have it in a locked case from the vehicle to the business and from the business to the vehicle.

Since I believe 12025 does not provide a private property exemption for other than a person in lawfull possession of the private property then they could still do the same to you. Don't count on the niceness of an officer to keep your butt out of jail.

locosway
08-28-2009, 10:41 PM
Well, I will point out that in my case they are making the exact argument that once I leave the business and in the private property parking lot, I am not exempt from 626.9. . . Meaning I must have it in a locked case from the vehicle to the business and from the business to the vehicle.

Since I believe 12025 does not provide a private property exemption then they could still do the same to you. Don't count on the niceness of an officer to keep your butt out of jail.

I'm familiar with your case, but I was never stopped or questioned.

My question is purely theoretical, and it does seem to be a valid theory at this time.

Theseus
08-28-2009, 10:42 PM
I know. . . And I was just saying you should not rely on the niceness of an officer when it comes to the law.

As in my case, if they want to get you they will find anything.

Decoligny
08-29-2009, 4:10 PM
I just walked out of Turners with my G19. They tied it in a clear plastic bag and I took it to my truck. Once there I removed the lock from inside the case and wrapped it around the handle twice and locked it.

So, during the time from inside Turners to my truck, was I not breaking the law with an unlocked concealed weapon?

Furthermore, most people would drive home with the case unlocked. Isn't that breaking the law as well?

If you took the lock and wrapped it around "the handle", I am assuming you mean the trigger "cable" lock, and that you wrapped it around the handle of the gun and then put the gun back into the glock gun case.

If this is a correct description of what you did, then you were illegally carrying a concealed firearm.

The gun doesn't have to be locked, just unloaded. It is the case that holds the gun that has to be locked.

locosway
08-29-2009, 4:11 PM
No, I use the lock to secure the case handles together, so it can not be opened.

GoodEyeSniper
08-29-2009, 7:13 PM
Well, I don't think these laws were intended to target every single citizen who doesn't take the proper precautions. Back when most people approached things with some common sense. An officer might notice it, tell you what you did wrong, and say have a nice day.

Nowadays they fish to get otherwise law abiding citizens in trouble for some triviality (not all cops, not even most probably).

Though these laws were still WRONG in the first place, I don't think they necessarily have the evil intent we've come to associate with them now.

Theseus
08-29-2009, 8:00 PM
Well, I don't think these laws were intended to target every single citizen who doesn't take the proper precautions. Back when most people approached things with some common sense. An officer might notice it, tell you what you did wrong, and say have a nice day.

Nowadays they fish to get otherwise law abiding citizens in trouble for some triviality (not all cops, not even most probably).

Though these laws were still WRONG in the first place, I don't think they necessarily have the evil intent we've come to associate with them now.

Laws don't have intent, only the people enacting and enforcing them do.

locosway
08-29-2009, 9:48 PM
Laws don't have intent, only the people enacting and enforcing them do.

Exactly...

It doesn't matter what the law was intended to do. The reality is that it could be enforced, and an innocent person would pay the price.