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joneil
03-14-2005, 1:46 PM
I have a question. What is the best way to buy/sell a full auto rifle. I've seen a lot of discussions on this, but it seems very confusing to me. Is it purposfully confusing, or am I getting confused by everyone's opinions. I really dont believe that everyone takes the time to fill out all that paperwork either....just wondering

joneil
03-14-2005, 1:46 PM
I have a question. What is the best way to buy/sell a full auto rifle. I've seen a lot of discussions on this, but it seems very confusing to me. Is it purposfully confusing, or am I getting confused by everyone's opinions. I really dont believe that everyone takes the time to fill out all that paperwork either....just wondering

03-14-2005, 1:52 PM
Uhhh... true machine guns or "full auto rifles" are generally not legal in California.
Is this what you actually mean?

Machine guns (http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dwcl/12200.htm)

stv
03-14-2005, 2:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joneil:

I really dont believe that everyone takes the time to fill out all that paperwork either....just wondering </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You'd better believe it. Besides, peons can't legally get them in this state, so forget you ever heard of them.

bwiese
03-14-2005, 3:07 PM
I surely hope this isn't troll bait.

Or are you perhaps confusing semiauto vs full auto?

FA rifles are essentially completely illegal for most regular peons to own/use in CA. Hell, even semiauto 'Assault Weapons' are just about treated like machineguns in CA anyway: possession of an unregistered semiauto assault rifle in CA is a felony too.

And from a Federal standpoint, if you live in various "free states" (that is, NOT California) and you can find (and want to pay $4000 & up) for a full auto "machinegun" made before May 1986, and fill out the paperwork and pay a $200 tax stamp, then you can have one. Gotta move to TX, NM, AZ, NV, OR, ID, VA, etc.

There's a very good reason to fill out that paperwork. Expect felony charges, large fines and a fair stint in Fed prison for any "NFA" (National Firearms Act of 1934) violations like full auto, silencers, short-barrel rifles, etc.
These laws actually are fairly complex and have some 'curves' because they're really TAX law, not gun control law!

Possession of an illegal machinegun could also result in simultaneous state felony charges too.

If you have an illegal FA gun, or an unregistered semiauto AW in CA, I recommend cutting it into very small parts and disposing of it. Hiding it won't do much good - we've already seen how one person on this board accidentally had the police come to his workplace for something completely unrelated to him and they found AW receivers during search.



Bill Wiese
San Jose

trempel_ry@yahoo.com
03-14-2005, 4:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joneil:
I have a question. What is the best way to buy/sell a full auto rifle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Answer: Move out of CA to a free state. NV, TX, etc. In CA you will not legally buy a FA firearm, period.

bwiese
03-14-2005, 4:45 PM
Hmmm... I prob. rose to troll bait but checking further:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">joneil user data:
Date Registered: March 09, 2005
Karma Title: Junior Member
Display Email: joneil74@aol.com
Gender: Male
Interests: SMG's, buying and trading
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Recent member, just this one posting (that started this thread).

Slow day at the ATF office? Or a VPC troll?


Bill Wiese
San Jose

jimx
03-14-2005, 8:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bwiese:
Hmmm... I prob. rose to troll bait but checking further:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">joneil user data:
Date Registered: March 09, 2005
Karma Title: Junior Member
Display Email: joneil74@aol.com
Gender: Male
Interests: SMG's, buying and trading
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Recent member, just this one posting (that started this thread).

Slow day at the ATF office? Or a VPC troll?


Bill Wiese
San Jose </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

God, this is a tough crowd! Imho it is a legitimate question.
Some guy that is not really into guns thinks it would be neat to get a FA. Does a quick net search and gets conflicting info. - - CA is not one of the states that FA is illegal - - They just almost NEVER ok them. It makes sense that someone would find and come here (or hometown at ar15.com) to ask. Btw there is no faq here and little talk of FA.
This is not the most active group; we do not serve our selves by chasing people off. Not long ago a new guy was chased off for trying to do a legal transaction in LA. Hay even if I am wrong and he is a troll, he not good at it since he should get 2 quick no’s and the thread would die. If ATF he found out no one is selling FA.

Ps about 10 years ago a friend of a friend did get a FA in CA (not leo).
Pss what is a VPC troll?
Psss if you are ATF please remember that I stuck up for you…
Pssss just realized that I only have a couple of posts. So if that makes me a troll I guess I can change my screen name or go to ar15.com, different name there. And if that makes me an ATF - well, they better get me a paycheck.

Just my 2 cents

imported_QuarterBoreGunner
03-14-2005, 9:20 PM
Circles within circles...

I hate the fact that we actually have to debate as to whether or not a post is a troll or not.

Joneil- if this was a legitimate question, you now have your answer; if this was a troll.. well you still have your answer.

I think I'm with jimx on this- the average guy with little or now previous firearms knowledge may very well believe what, it seems, the general public knows about firearms- that you can go to a gunstore and buy a machinegun with a little paperwork, cop killer bullets and assault weapons.

Oh yeah, I forgot, also that the .50BMG rifle can knockdown a helicopter from a mile away.

Welcome to calguns.

LongBch_SigP226
03-14-2005, 10:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joneil:
I have a question. What is the best way to buy/sell a full auto rifle. I've seen a lot of discussions on this, but it seems very confusing to me. Is it purposfully confusing, or am I getting confused by everyone's opinions. I really dont believe that everyone takes the time to fill out all that paperwork either....just wondering </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Legal questions shouldn't be asked online to people like us that are not lawyers. We hate to give you the wrong information and put you behind bars. So do me a favor and contact CA DOJ or your local ATF office. Thanks.

Be very careful what you post online. LEOs routinely patrol these sites, and by posting, you leave footprints that can easily be traced back to your name, and your address. Your aliases don't make you anonymous online.

03-14-2005, 10:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by QuarterBoreGunner:

I hate the fact that we actually have to debate as to whether or not a post is a troll or not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suspect that the question was legitimate, just a little confused. I frequent other places on the net (non-gun oriented) and if & when the conversation turns to guns, it's almost automatic that someone will offer very skewed perspectives on the issue. And not just the laws and technicalities around them, but the general nomenclature of firearms and the overall what's what of the subject.

I'll give someone the benefit of the doubt, but I'd be lying if I said that this post doesn't at least slightly raise my eyebrows since it was in tandem with this one (http://calguns.net/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/9306019111/m/63810977121/r/35810562321#35810562321) too.

03-14-2005, 10:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimx:

Pss what is a VPC troll?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pssssssss... that would be the Violence Policy Center. (http://www.vpc.org/)
-our friends, and masters in the art of sensationalism.

03-14-2005, 10:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DingChavez:

Legal questions shouldn't be asked online to people like us that are not lawyers. We hate to give you the wrong information and put you behind bars. So do me a favor and contact CA DOJ or your local ATF office. Thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, we are fast becoming even more of that "*********" society spoken of elsewhere in these forums when we must limit our thoughts and fear sharing ideas and opinions with each other.
Sad.

(not bashing you Ding, just making the point ...hopefully).

jimx
03-14-2005, 11:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Basura Blanca:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jimx:

Pss what is a VPC troll?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pssssssss... that would be the Violence Policy Center. (http://www.vpc.org/)

-our friends, and masters in the art of sensationalism. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Omg I just went to their web site. SORRY I ASKED!

http://www.vpc.org/graphics/birdhuntsm2.jpg

03-14-2005, 11:19 PM
Sorry jimx, I forgot the standard three paragraph warning for the site.

Send me the bill for cleaning up the puke on your desk.


http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

bwiese
03-15-2005, 10:32 AM
Yeah, after I'd replied my troll/entrapment flag was triggered.

In the past I've seen lotsa this on AR15.COM and the AR15-L mailing list. Some new doofus joins group or mail list and starts asking about autosears or best way to cut barrel for SBR, etc.

There's a fine line between discussion and aiding/abetting.

Even if not illegal, it does allow VPC/Brady types who surveil us to try to say that "gun websites are replete with information and guidance from folks ready to help others break the law."

BS of course but we don't need that PR!

It's one thing questioning grey area of law. But when clearly illegal conduct is asked for/about, it's good to just say No, a brief Why Not, and walk away.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

Inoxmark
03-15-2005, 11:03 AM
You'd think that a guy those interests are "SMG's, buying and trading" would know a thing or two about applicable laws.
Besides, his thread title implies he has a full auto rifle to sell. IMHO this smells too much of fishing for illegal offers.
Curious to see his other two posts, can't find them.

joneil
03-16-2005, 4:39 PM
Wow, you guys are really tuff. Not quite sure what to say about all this especially to bweise. I had a legitimate question on the laws and process for registering "machineguns". I do not have one...but I was thinking about getting one and I have been getting a lot of conflicting information from other web pages. My question in no way stated that I wanted to buy one from anyone on this board, nor would I ever do that. Yes, if you read my profile, it stated "SMG's, buying and selling". Yes I have an intereste in SMG's... such as "The trench broom"...I personally feel it has significant historical value and is a good gun. And yes, I buy and trade handguns and have done so with persons ...through a gun dealer.

Hindsight being 20/20, I should have eloborated on my profile a bit more...I guess it does look misleading.

However, I think some users on this web page need to relax and some users, such as myself need to double check our profiles. I was quite surprised how aggressive some of you were towards me. If "buying and selling" is so wrong to put on my profile, why does this web page have a topic related to the buying and selling of guns then??

I look forward to your responses.

bwiese
03-16-2005, 5:14 PM
Joneil..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">joneil wrote:
I was quite surprised how aggressive some of you were towards me. If "buying and selling" is so wrong to put on my profile, why does this web page have a topic related to the buying and selling of guns then?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry about harshness, seems you're sincere, but there have been problems before....

In answer to your question, the difference is that buying and selling of ordinary non-assault weapons and non-full auto/non-SMG weapons are perfectly legal in CA when going thru a dealer. This website helps facilitate that for its members.

By contrast, it's pretty commonly known that full-auto guns are essentially 100% illegal in CA and you have to go thru lotsa months of Federal paperwork hoops and spend many thousands of $$$ even in states where full auto guns are permitted (providing Feds are satisfied) to get one.

The problem is that various gun-related websites (like CalGUNS here) and various gun mailing lists have, from time to time, had 'trolls' posting and many of us are pretty sure these folks are either gov't employees or informants looking to entrap members, or are folks associated with Brady/VPC antigun groups trying to entice illegal conduct for bad press or referral to DAs....

On the AR15-L mailing list, for example, every so often someone posts requesting how to convert an AR15 to full auto or build a lightning link. The general nature and tone of these posts leads many of us to believe these are non-subtle entrapment attempts.

While discussion of attributes and legal acquisition of FA guns, etc. is of course legal, it's possible that discussion/verbal assistance in illegal conversions, illegal acquisition methods, etc. could sometime be construed as conspiracy if the other party took it to heart and modified a gun illegally, etc.

So our hairs really go up when we hear of stuff like this.

Right now, there's folks in jail for merely pointing down the street when they were simply queried by someone else about where to get drugs. This isn't dissimilar...

It's unfortunate, but the reality is we live in an antigun society, so we tread lightly where legality is concerned. Plus, we don't want CalGUNS to be regarded by antigunnies as a forum for illegal activities.

Sorry.

[And in answer to your question, no, you can't get full auto in CA. You also can't even acquire new semiauto 'assault weapons' or .50BMG rifles. Gotta move out of California to a "Class III state" like TX/NV/OR/ID etc....


Bill Wiese
San Jose

imported_QuarterBoreGunner
03-16-2005, 7:06 PM
Bill, that was perfect.

03-16-2005, 7:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joneil:
Wow, you guys are really tuff. Not quite sure what to say about all this especially to bweise. I had a legitimate question on the laws and process for registering "machineguns". I do not have one...but I was thinking about getting one and I have been getting a lot of conflicting information from other web pages. My question in no way stated that I wanted to buy one from anyone on this board, nor would I ever do that. Yes, if you read my profile, it stated "SMG's, buying and selling". Yes I have an intereste in SMG's... such as "The trench broom"...I personally feel it has significant historical value and is a good gun. And yes, I buy and trade handguns and have done so with persons ...through a gun dealer.

Hindsight being 20/20, I should have eloborated on my profile a bit more...I guess it does look misleading.

However, I think some users on this web page need to relax and some users, such as myself need to double check our profiles. I was quite surprised how aggressive some of you were towards me. If "buying and selling" is so wrong to put on my profile, why does this web page have a topic related to the buying and selling of guns then??

I look forward to your responses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Welcome to Calguns.
Your complimentary grain of salt is waiting at the front check-in desk.
http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-hanko
03-16-2005, 9:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by joneil:
I had a legitimate question on the laws and process for registering "machineguns". I do not have one...but I was thinking about getting one and I have been getting a lot of conflicting information from other web pages.

Yes I have an intereste in SMG's... such as "The trench broom"...I personally feel it has significant historical value and is a good gun.

I look forward to your responses. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
In order...Which web pages have "a lot of conflicting information"?? Purchase and ownership of an SMG is tightly controlled even in states that allow you to get one; I've been through the same process http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. I'd be interested in any web page that infers, let alone states, that a full auto weapon can be legally acquired or owned in the PRK.

The Winchester shotgun is the weapon traditionally referred to as "the trench broom", though the nickname can refer to other makes of shotguns. At the time the term was first used (WW I), we had no submachine guns in service.

-hanko

markalite@yahoo.com
03-17-2005, 10:24 AM
The only way to legaly own MG's in California is to be a property master that deals with renting these sort of arms to the movies. You would have to apply for your lic. as an occupational dealer and not as an individual but as a corporation.
All these hurdles are far beyond the typical hobbyist or indvidual. Not to mention, there are already reliable companies supplying Hollywood with their wares.

If you truly want to own a registered, legal SMG or MG, you will have to move to Nevada, Oregon or some other friendly state.

If you want one illegaly, I'll be happy to furnish you with the phone number of a local ATFE agent. I'm sure they would be happy to set up a meeting and maybe even a nice room for you at "Club Fed". http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

markalite@yahoo.com
03-17-2005, 10:29 AM
Another option is to buy the softair pellet guns from Japan. Realistic, legal, and a lot cheaper.
Likewise, you may consider buying dummy guns or registered dewat MGs. These come up from time to time and look good when displayed with apporpriate militaria.

imported_QuarterBoreGunner
03-17-2005, 7:10 PM
Or be a firearms dealer that has gone through the incredibly complex process to become a LE dealer for such firearms; then you can have all the post 86 dealer samples you want. Technically you don’t ‘own’ them (even though you paid for them) and you can’t just go to any range and run through some mags with the selector switch on ‘very angry’ (though if you are a FFL AND an indoor range you can… when no one's looking.)

And if you get out of the biz, you need to return all of the ‘dealer samples’ back to the manufacturers.

It’s like letting go of a family pet. *sniff sniff* so sad...

jimx
03-17-2005, 8:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by -hanko:
In order...Which web pages have "a lot of conflicting information"?? Purchase and ownership of an SMG is tightly controlled even in states that allow you to get one; I've been through the same process http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. I'd be interested in any web page that infers, let alone states, that a full auto weapon can be legally acquired or owned in the PRK.
-hanko </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is one.
http://www.mp5.net/info/sbsconr.htm
At least in the notes they state “rarely issued”. Some charts do not have any notes so I can see how someone could mistakenly think they could get one

jimx
03-17-2005, 8:58 PM
QuarterBoreGunner and CW are right, if you are the right business and are willing to go though hell you may be able to get FA. BUT even if you did, the restrictions are so strict it would take the fun out of it!

Now if you have 3-10k and will settle for air soft or regular BB’s try
http://www.montysminiguns.com/bbpage.htm