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dwtt
06-07-2005, 9:41 PM
Hi,
I've seen the makarov surplus pistols in 9X18 being offered for $130 from Southern Ohio Gun. Anyone own one of these willing to comment on how this pistol shoots? Is it accurate? Is it durable? Being military surplus imported in large quantities, I am assuming there are lots of lemons in the inventory. Oh yes, how hard is it to get 9X18 ammo? thanks.

Trader Jack
06-07-2005, 10:54 PM
The Makarov IE: "PM" is one of the most reliable pistols on the market. At $135.00 which would translate to about $200.00 out the door makes it also an outstanding bargain in todays market.

As for ammo. Since the Makarov was weened on steel cased ammo, brands such as Wolf, Brown Bear, Silver Bear, and Barnul work fine. Any Brass cased ammo is fine as well. Is it hard to find? in stores yes, off the Internet no.
Dan's Ammo is selling a case of 500 Fiochi brass cased FMJ for $70.00 plus $15.00 shipping to the left coast.

jmlivingston
06-07-2005, 11:05 PM
Great little pistol! Make sure you check out http://www.makarov.com as well as the Mak forum at http://www.gunboards.com.

9x18 ammo is cheap and easy to find - however most of it is steel-jacketed and/or steel cased meaning indoor ranges don't like the stuff. There's two major manufacturers selling brass-cased, no-steel, reloadable ammo: Sellior & Belliot and Fiochi. CCI makes it in the aluminum case, Cor-bon is rumored to be coming out with some "in the near future" but that rumor has been around long enough that the "near future" was a long time ago. It's also a very easy caliber to reload for.

These are extremely durable, accurate enough for combat use but not target, and very reliable. Note that for many reliability has lots to do with cleanlines, the inertial firing pin channel asolutely must be cleaned of all cosmo and well lubricated.

Especially for the price, these are a great buy!

John

Noonanda
06-08-2005, 9:05 AM
Not to steal this thread but are Mak's Cali Legal??? I have been tossing around the idea of picking one up prior to moving back to Cali, but want to make sure it is a "cali approved" firearm

jmlivingston
06-08-2005, 9:30 AM
Yes, the Mak's are California legal. I bought mine a year and a half ago at Turners in Orange and I've seen them elsewhere as well.

rjones0604
06-08-2005, 12:00 PM
I make be wrong here, but I think the only Makarov's that are CA legal are the 9x18 ones (the subject of this thread). That is due to the fact that C&R (Curio & Relic) pistols are exempt from the handgun safety crap (opps, legislation!) that applies to typical new handguns.
I only mention this because one can find Makarovs in standard 9mm (9x19) and they are NOT legal in CA as new handguns.

If anyone knows otherwise, please post...


Rob

jmlivingston
06-08-2005, 12:47 PM
A true Makarov in 9x19/9Para/9Luger? I've heard discussion of this, mostly in regards that the locking breech mechanism would not be capable of handling the recoil on this round - at least not with any sustained usage. Never actually heard of one in existence...

The Bulgarian Makarov is strictly NOT on the BATFE C&R list however. Only the Russian manufactured military (not civilian) ones are considered C&R. The Bulgarian Makarov's are legal here because they were submitted by Century Arms and passed the drop tests. See the list at: The DoJ Firearms website (http://justice.doj.ca.gov/safeguns/safeguns_new.taf)

There are no .380 Makarov's on the state list that are eligable for sale, and none that I know of that are C&R.

John

whatever
06-08-2005, 4:35 PM
Originally posted by Rob Jones:
I make be wrong here, but I think the only Makarov's that are CA legal are the 9x18 ones (the subject of this thread). That is due to the fact that C&R (Curio & Relic) pistols are exempt from the handgun safety crap (opps, legislation!) that applies to typical new handguns.
I only mention this because one can find Makarovs in standard 9mm (9x19) and they are NOT legal in CA as new handguns.

If anyone knows otherwise, please post...


Rob

I think you are wrong a little. Being C&R has ne bearing on approval. A non C&R Bulgarian model was submitted for testing ( or several I guess) and it passed.

There are no 9x19 Makarovs. The pinned barrel would not be able to take the pressure. Only 9x18 and 9mm short (.380).

Trader Jack
06-08-2005, 6:22 PM
The East German made Makrov is also considered C&R and can be sold over the counter as well as the Bulgarian model. The Chinese (Norinco) and the Russian model can not be sold over the counter either but the units made in the Soviet Union can be sold.
There was a dealer at the Vallejo Show last week that had a mint Chinese Makarov that was on consignment for $350.00

jmlivingston
06-08-2005, 6:30 PM
Shoot, I completely forgot about the E. German model! Wish I had one of those..... http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Whatever - C&R status does exempt pistols from the drop test. From the DoJ website:

Effective January 1, 2001, no handgun may be manufactured within California, imported into California for sale, lent, given, kept for sale, or offered/exposed for sale unless that handgun model has passed firing, safety, and drop tests and is certified for sale in California by the Department of Justice. Private party transfers, curio/relic handguns, certain single-action revolvers, and pawn/consignment returns are exempt from this requirement.

dwtt
06-08-2005, 8:44 PM
Originally posted by jmlivingston:
Great little pistol! Make sure you check out http://www.makarov.com as well as the Mak forum at http://www.gunboards.com.

9x18 ammo is cheap and easy to find - It's also a very easy caliber to reload for.

These are extremely durable, accurate enough for combat use but not target, and very reliable. Note that for many reliability has lots to do with cleanlines, the inertial firing pin channel asolutely must be cleaned of all cosmo and well lubricated.


John

Thanks everyone. I'm goning to get a Makarov. As for shooting the pistol indoors, I shoot at outdoor ranges so I have no problem with steel cased rounds. Would a 9X19 reloading die work for the 9X18 case? Is the wall taper different?
To Noonanda: if you are in OK now and will be going to Pendelton soon, buy any pistol you want that's not on the CA approved list, because once you get here, you won't be able to buy them, but you can keep them if you bought them out of state before you moved to CA.

Turbinator
06-08-2005, 9:03 PM
Originally posted by whatever:
There are no 9x19 Makarovs. The pinned barrel would not be able to take the pressure. Only 9x18 and 9mm short (.380).

I don't think there are any factory made 9x19 Maks, but go check out that site, http://www.makarov.com, the guy who founded the site also reamed out the chamber to take lightly loaded 9x19 cartridges. He did this a number of years ago - I remember when he posted his efforts on rec.guns.

Turby

jmlivingston
06-08-2005, 11:04 PM
Would a 9X19 reloading die work for the 9X18 case? Is the wall taper different?

NO! Absolutely NOT!

DO NOT USE A 9mm Luger/Parabellum DIE FOR RELOADING THE 9x18 MAKAROV CASE!

There are substantial differences between 9mm Luger and 9x18 Makarov, length is only the obvious one. The other significant difference is that the 9x18 Mak round is really 9.2mm wide.

The 9mm Luger operates at higher velocities, substantially higher pressures, and a much heavier buller at a smaller diamer. If you want to reload the 9mm Mak pick up a set of dies for them, a 3 die carbide set from Lee is only about $25.

Seriously, if you are thinking about a Mak go check out the websites I listed earlier, they are the resources on the internet for all things Makarov.

John

rjones0604
06-09-2005, 1:13 PM
Well, I realized that I was quite wrong about a 9x19 Makarov. What I meant to say was a .380 Makarov; they exist, but are not considered a C&R. In CA, a C&R pistol is automatically exempt from the handgun safety requirement. ATF's C&R list does NOT include a Bulgarian Makarov (only Russian and East German, both chambered in 9mm Makarov only). So, the only way to get a new Bulgarian Makarov would be if it had passed the drop test, which apparently the Bulgarian has.

BTW, my father-in-law has a Makarov in .380, and I find it to be punishing to my hand to shoot - just my opinion...

Rob

icormba
06-09-2005, 1:38 PM
Originally posted by Rob Jones:
I find it to be punishing to my hand to shoot - just my opinion...

Rob

your not the only one! more punishing than my .45, .40, & 9mm's... it's about the same as my G23 w/.357sig though.
I think it has something to do with the very slim grip? it also tends to "jump" in my hand. (not literally) I hear those "mak wraps" help solve this.

jmlivingston
06-09-2005, 1:43 PM
I've never fired the .380 version, but I imagine that the 9mm Mak round has even more recoil as it's a higher pressure cartridge.

The key to managing recoil in the Makarov's is getting a good set of grips. A lot of people recommend the Pierce grips or the mak-a-wrap. I had a lot of success just by changing from the black thumbrest grips to the red-star style. Just recently I finished making a set of wood-laminate grips, and have yet to try them out. They're a bit thicker than any of the standard style grips and I have a lot of hope that they will function well. They sure do look good too! http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


http://www.hunt101.com/img/286632.JPG

ivanimal
06-11-2005, 2:37 AM
I have carefully trimmed 9x19 cases to 9x18 and reloaded them with Makarov recipes. I have never had a misfeed or issue. Before I did this I checked every dimension on both case to see if there were any differences. The only problems I found were getting the recipes for the Makarov. Oh and the FEG -63 is a bastard to shoot, 10 rounds and you look for a S and W 500 for lighter shooting.

jmlivingston
06-11-2005, 8:25 AM
That's a pretty common thing to do, trimming 9x19 to 9x18. A case trimmer is one of the things I still need to grab, I have a bunch of 9x19 given to me a while ago as well as my own brass that I've been collecting. What recipe have you found that works well for the 9x18? I'm using Win231 powder and have really liked it at one of the lighter loads. Reduced the recoil and increased the accuracy over the Fiochi and S&B that I was shooting. Since I don't do anything but put little holes in paper I haven't bothered trying to work the round up to a larger load.

dwtt
06-11-2005, 9:40 AM
Originally posted by ivanimal:
I have carefully trimmed 9x19 cases to 9x18 and reloaded them with Makarov recipes. I have never had a misfeed or issue. Before I did this I checked every dimension on both case to see if there were any differences.

Are there SAAMI specs for the 9X18 cartridge? My reloading book is about 15 years old and doesn't have this cartridge. I'll buy a new reloading manual if the newer books have this cartridge.

jmlivingston
06-11-2005, 10:30 AM
There's load data for the 9x18 from multiple sources: Lyman's 48th ed. and Lee's Modern Reloading 2nd ed. have data for this cartridge. Probably others as well, and there's also recipes at http://www.makarov.com and several other websites. Dies are available from Lee, Dillon and RCBS. I don't know if Hornady and Redding have dies for the Mak or not. New brass is available from Starline and bullets from Hornady, Speer, National, and several other.

maxicon
06-11-2005, 3:56 PM
I've never fired the .380 version, but I imagine that the 9mm Mak round has even more recoil as it's a higher pressure cartridge.

The key to managing recoil in the Makarov's is getting a good set of grips. A lot of people recommend the Pierce grips or the mak-a-wrap.

I have a .380 Russian Makarov, and I like it a lot. Recoil is mild, accuracy is great, and it's one of my most reliable pistols.

Muzzle energy tends to run about 10% less than the 9x18 Mak, according to typical data out there, but I've never chronographed it. One plus of the .380 is that there are lots of good loads available for it. I use Gold Dots as defense rounds, and whatever's cheap and brass-cased as range rounds.

I've tried both the Pearce and the Makawrap grips, and both are an improvement over the factory grips.

The Pearce is much more pleasant to shoot, as it's softer and thicker, but it's a bit sticky and bulky if the gun's used for carry. It's not as small-hand friendly as the other grips, either, but I have biggish hands.

The Makawrap is slimmer and harder, so is less comfortable to shoot a lot, but it's much better for concealment.

It's hard to go wrong with a clean Makarov in either caliber.

ivanimal
06-12-2005, 12:51 AM
Believe it or not the most accurate load I found was in an older cartidges of the world (6th edition) it lists 5 grains of unique 95 grain bullets at 1100 fps. I actually use 4.8 grains and they shoot fine.

or try these.
http://www.meadphoto.com/reloadinglog.htm