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Noonanda
08-31-2005, 8:53 AM
Question for you all.
Do you think it would be legal to take a 20 or 30 rd mag and weld in a block so that it can hold no more than 10 rounds?? An AK with a 10 round mag isn't as cool looking and one that "Looks" like it holds 20 or 30. I was thinking about this last night, buying a 20 round hungarian or romanian mag, and wleding in a block so that it CANNOT hold more than 10 rounds. It will look cool but function within the legal limits as set by california Peni$ I mean penal code whateverthenumberis.

Has anyone tried this? I would have to do this prior to moving back into the state as theys bad hunks of metal cause so much grief and pain in the world.

What do you all think????

C.G.
08-31-2005, 9:20 AM
Originally posted by Noonanda:
Question for you all.
Do you think it would be legal to take a 20 or 30 rd mag and weld in a block so that it can hold no more than 10 rounds?? An AK with a 10 round mag isn't as cool looking and one that "Looks" like it holds 20 or 30. I was thinking about this last night, buying a 20 round hungarian or romanian mag, and wleding in a block so that it CANNOT hold more than 10 rounds. It will look cool but function within the legal limits as set by california Peni$ I mean penal code whateverthenumberis.

Has anyone tried this? I would have to do this prior to moving back into the state as theys bad hunks of metal cause so much grief and pain in the world.

What do you all think????
Get a manufacturer mag, like Bushmaster, which is twenty round size, blocked off at ten and cannot be modified without ruining the mag. Anything of your own construction/mod I wouldn't use unless you got the Cal DOJ approval first.

Noonanda
08-31-2005, 10:17 AM
Talked to a DOJ guy on the phone concerning this, he said it is a grey are that will need to be researched because it was not manufactured as a low capacity, but it does meet the laws criteria of holding no more than 10 rounds. I sent them an email with the following:

I have a question concerning Hi-capacity magainzes.

I am active duty military stationed in Oklahoma, and will be transfering to California in March of 2006. I currently own a high capacity magazine that is not allowed in california.

My question is this, would it be legal for me to permanently convert this magazine so that it holds the legal amount of ammunition? IE I would take a 20 round magazine (hi-capacity) and permanently weld a block inside this magazine so that it can hold no more than 10 rounds of ammunition (converted to low capacity or "legal capacity)??
From what I read on the website concerning Hi-Cap. Mags, this would be legal as it could not hold more than 10 rounds.
What concerns me is the fact that the outside appearance would not be changed, and this would bring attention to said magazine. I am not worried about the attention, but would like to ensure I am legally allowed to possess it in its non-hi capacity status.
So I would like to find out if this permanent modification would be considered legal before I transfer to find out if I must despose of said magazine prior to transfering.

C.G.
08-31-2005, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Noonanda:
Talked to a DOJ guy on the phone concerning this, he said it is a grey are that will need to be researched because it was not manufactured as a low capacity, but it does meet the laws criteria of holding no more than 10 rounds. I sent them an email with the following:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I have a question concerning Hi-capacity magainzes.

I am active duty military stationed in Oklahoma, and will be transfering to California in March of 2006. I currently own a high capacity magazine that is not allowed in california.

My question is this, would it be legal for me to permanently convert this magazine so that it holds the legal amount of ammunition? IE I would take a 20 round magazine (hi-capacity) and permanently weld a block inside this magazine so that it can hold no more than 10 rounds of ammunition (converted to low capacity or "legal capacity)??
From what I read on the website concerning Hi-Cap. Mags, this would be legal as it could not hold more than 10 rounds.
What concerns me is the fact that the outside appearance would not be changed, and this would bring attention to said magazine. I am not worried about the attention, but would like to ensure I am legally allowed to possess it in its non-hi capacity status.
So I would like to find out if this permanent modification would be considered legal before I transfer to find out if I must despose of said magazine prior to transfering. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check this thread: FAL mags (http://calguns.net/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/9306019111/m/82210323721)

bwiese
08-31-2005, 11:27 AM
Being the paranoid sort, I wouldn't just trust a letter from a 'field agent', or "analyst". Those folks aren't lawyers and are essentially glorified desk clerks. Get it from someone higher up.

What those folks write really doesn't have the force of law if trouble came up.

This is much like asking the BATF a tech question about legalities. The local field office folks (agents, clerks and even managers) give all sorts of answers all over the map but the only one that counted was a letter from the tech division signed by its then-manager, Ed Owen (there's a new guy there now).

Unofficially - and I'm not a lawyer - I do believe that ultimately a collection of parts that used to be a hicap mag - but now only serves as a 10rd magazine - would be legal as long as the conversion were reasonably permanent. Hicap mag replacement mag parts are in fact legal to possess in CA; I just wouldn't possess a complete set or sets of them all at once even disassembled - but if blocked they might be OK.

The broad issue here is not only just what Cal DOJ/Firearms Div thinks, but what each one of the 58 county DAs (District Attorneys) thinks - since this is really an 'edge' issue. Remember that 99.9% of all prosecutions in CA happen at the county DA level - the DOJ isn't going against you, the DA is: sometimes on edge issues their opinion could differ.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

markalite@yahoo.com
08-31-2005, 2:43 PM
I've been wondering about this also. Seems that the conventional wisdom is that it's okay as long as it is fairly difficult to convert back. Is there a way to get a ruling in writing from CADOJ?

rjones0604
09-02-2005, 7:06 AM
The real problem with doing this is this:

You must first acquire the high-cap magazine in order to perform the modification, correct? If you don't already legally possess the high-cap magazine, you would have to break CA law to acquire the high-cap magazine in the first place!

Unless of course, you went out-of-state to do all this...then you might be legal in CA.

Rob

icormba
09-02-2005, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by Rob Jones:
The real problem with doing this is this:

You must first acquire the high-cap magazine in order to perform the modification, correct? If you don't already legally possess the high-cap magazine, you would have to break CA law to acquire the high-cap magazine in the first place!

Unless of course, you went out-of-state to do all this...then you might be legal in CA.

Rob

He's currently out of state:
Location: Ft Sill Oklahoma, soon to be Camp Pendleton

artherdGROUPEESUCKS
09-02-2005, 9:55 PM
Should be perfectly legal, the ammunition feeding device

There is no law on the books saying I can't MAKE MY OWN magazines from bare sheet metal (or metal ingoits I pound into sheet) So why can't I buy followers, bodies, blocks of wood, etc?)

Only thing that matters at all is the mag's capacity to hold rounds.


FYI, my (and most) 10 round CA Glock mags will hold an 11th round if I cram it in there. This state has made nearly ALL OF US into DE-FACTO CRIMINALS!

Lastly, Simple Posession of high-caps is NOT controled in CA. *ONLY* the IMPORT, MANUFACTUAR, or PURCHASE of high-caps is controled.

09-11-2005, 12:56 PM
Recently, California passed a law that banned vehicles with fixed high capacity fuel tanks that have a capacity over 10 gallons. These vehicles will be banned from sale or importation in the state of California effective immediately. Vehicles with these magazines may not be transferred or solf within the state, except to authorized law enforcement dealers.
Vehicles sold prior to this date will require registration as an assault vehicle, or the installation of a Department of Justice approved
normal capacity fuel tank. The state believes that this will lower traffic deaths. Critics say that this will simply force people to refill more often...

saki302
09-12-2005, 7:44 AM
11 rounds in a 10 rd GLock mag?

I can barely get the 10th round in- I call them my '9 rounders'.

-Dave

Noonanda
09-12-2005, 10:49 AM
still aint heard back from em, may email em again in a few days if I dont hear anything

bwiese
09-12-2005, 11:17 AM
Noonanda wrote:
still aint heard back from em, may email em
again in a few days if I dont hear anything


I would not email. I'd mail a formal letter in; this will get a formal response.

Heck, I'd address it to Tim Riegert, asst head of the Firearms Div. He's sharp, approachable, and a lawyer - and that way you won't get a random response from a desk jockey 'analyst' (read: clerk) or field agent, neither of whom are lawyers or understand legal minutiae.

Email is a very poor way to communicate on matters of import for legal communications, or even customer support. When I need something done, or need a concrete and binding answer I always send a letter.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

Noonanda
09-13-2005, 11:51 AM
Here is a copy of the letter Im gonna send to them, what do you all think?? (sorry if it is long winded)

Dear Sir or Ma’am,

I am currently an active duty United States Marine stationed in Oklahoma. I have a question concerning “High-Capacity” magazines.

Living in Oklahoma residents are allowed to own and possess magazines with the ability to hold more than 10 rounds. I currently own 2 magazines that hold 20 rounds, and understand that these are illegal to possess in California, due to the fact that they were purchased after the High-Capacity Magazine law went into effect in California. This brings me to my question.

My question is would it be legal for me to permanently convert this magazine so that it can hold no more than the legal amount of ammunition? For example I would take a 20 round magazine (High-Capacity) and permanently weld a block inside this magazine so that it can hold no more than 10 rounds of ammunition (converting it to low capacity or "legal capacity”)??

The reason I ask this question is the fact that in March of 2006 I will be stationed back at Camp Pendleton.

From what I read on the website with the laws concerning High-Capacity Magazines and from a phone discussion with a clerk at DOJ, this would be legal as it could not hold more than 10 rounds. But the clerk brought up a valid point that this is a grey area that may not be covered by the law so I would like to get an official DOJ ruling on the matter.

What concerns me is the fact that the outside appearance would not be changed, and this would bring attention to said magazine by law enforcement officers. Also is the fact that I am not a “licensed manufacturer” but my modification to my magazines would be for personal use only. The aforementioned magazines would not be able to hold more than 10 rounds, and any attempt to convert these magazines back to high capacity or to remove the block would ruin or destroy the magazine due to the placement of the welds on the inside of the magazine body.

I am not worried about the attention these may attract from law enforcement officers, as long as in the Department of Justice says that this would be a legal conversion and I had documentation to prove it.

These modifications would be conducted prior to my transfer back to California. So I would like to find out if this permanent modification would be considered legal before I transfer to find out if I must dispose of said magazines prior to transferring back to California.

toolman9000
09-13-2005, 4:02 PM
I don't mean to be a pest, but in the first post of this thread there is mention of "AK", Is the AK you are bringing to California Registered as an Assult Weapon already???

Just checking, if not the mags could be the least of your problems.

-toolman9000

Noonanda
09-14-2005, 5:14 AM
I am active duty military, so there is a excemption for military with "assault rifles".

This question could affect alot of people, I know there is a guy with a Cali Fn-FAL that is also trying to get an answer on this question.

Part of my reason for pursueing this question is the AK, or for that matter any detachable magazine rifle does not look right to me with a lo-cap magazine. A high cap modified to lo-cap standards will meet the law, yet still portrays that image of "evil". After all image is everything LOL

artherdGROUPEESUCKS
09-20-2005, 10:22 PM
I am active duty military, so there is a excemption for military with "assault rifles".


Wait a second, isn't there there also an exemption for AD Military with Standard-Capacity mags as well? &lt;lemme look&gt;

I'd drop the 'permanant welding' issue, and I'd drop the AD Military issue.

Press them, make them tell you it's not legal to temporarily insert a block of wood to block it to 10. They can't, because it is perfectly legal as long as the mag feeds only 10.

artherdGROUPEESUCKS
09-20-2005, 10:35 PM
Hrm, it does not appear that AD Military are exempt from standard-capacity magainze restrictions, only Peace Officers are.

At least this is what I can gleen from staring too long at statutes too late in the evening.

At anyrate, my earlier comments stand. Ditch the AD Military, and ditch the specifics in which you will modify. Say only "The magazine will be altered in such a way as it will hold only 10 rounds withought disassembly of the magazine"

bwiese
09-20-2005, 10:38 PM
There is no legal basis for exemption for hicap mags for the personal weapons (of any type) of miltary folks stationed here. The laws did not account for that.

So, while the DOJ can issue a special permit for active duty military to retain their AWs while stationed here, they can't give out permits for hicaps!

If the DOJ tells you otherwise, make them cite code in PC 12xxx. They won't be able to, as assault weapon law is separate/independent from hicap mag law.

Accept ONLY information on this from a senior DOJ Firearms person, preferably a lawyer. DOJ 'field agents' are cops, and you should never trust a cop for information (or much else).


Bill Wiese
San Jose

Noonanda
10-05-2005, 5:28 PM
Hey all good news, I just got an email from Alison Merrilees, Deputy Attorney General at DOJ about my question. I sent them a letter like last week, asking if it was legal to convert hi-cap's to low caps. She says it is legal for me to convert them prior to transfering back to pendleton. So I will be bringing some HI-cap looking but low capacity magazines back to california. I think what I will do is silver sodder a block in the mags after I put in the spring making em hold no more than 10 rounds. Anyone need some mags converted for them prior to me transfering back out?
I asked her if she could mail me a hard copy version of what she wrote for a CYA thing.

bwiese
10-05-2005, 5:37 PM
Noonanda..

I really really don't know why you want to do this. Regardless of legal issues, it's an exercise in futility and a big waste of time.

Roughing up the inside surface of mags is a good way of causing follower drag and uneven follower movement (i.e., tipping) in some mags, and feed issues in guns using them.

Go buy a bunch of 10rd mags mailorder for your guns while in CA. They're cheap enough as only CA and a couple of other screwed up places are a market for them.

Leave your hicaps stored safely outside CA or in a bank deposit box (which is fairly cheap).

Bill Wiese
San Jose

icormba
10-05-2005, 8:01 PM
I can understand why he wants to do this... What's the fun of having an AK with a 10 round mag? Might as well get an SKS. At least having an AK with a 30 rounder modified to only hold 10 rounds still has that "EVIL" look to it... isn't that the whole purpose? http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I never sat at a bench shooting my AK for accuracy! the AK was the rifle I used on the tin can range.

AK mags are probably the cheapest of all rifle mags ever made, they are also probably one of the most reliable mag designs ever created.

Outside of California these things are cheaper than dirt and sometimes the high caps are cheaper than the 5/10 rounders. He's not staying here forever so destroying a 30 round AK mag is nothin. Us on the other hand... we have to guard our legally owned hi-caps like gold! (didn't someone say that earlier?)
http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://www.calguns.net/banghead.gif damn Ca!

ON the other hand... Pistol low caps seem to be the bargain for us these days. Those days will end though! As 10 rounders will no longer be the norm and they too will dry up. Unless someone re-instates the National high cap ban again. So getting some 10rounder's for your pistols now is a good idea as Bill stated above!

saki302
10-06-2005, 2:24 AM
Chris,

Don;t forget, there are 10 YEARS' worth of 'low cap' mags in other states people are disposing of right now.
The only issues I see is with guns produced after the AW ban expired- like the FN 5.7. The 10 rounders will cost just as much as the 20's, since they cost the same to produce, and there aren't thousands of them floating around.

-Dave

colossians323
10-06-2005, 3:50 AM
Originally posted by Rob Jones:
The real problem with doing this is this:

You must first acquire the high-cap magazine in order to perform the modification, correct? If you don't already legally possess the high-cap magazine, you would have to break CA law to acquire the high-cap magazine in the first place!

Unless of course, you went out-of-state to do all this...then you might be legal in CA.

Rob

Actually, you can order all the regular cap parts you want, you just can't assemble them into a new reg-cap magazine.
So if one wanted to do this in California, it is completely legal as long as its capacity would not hold more then 10.

Noonanda
10-06-2005, 5:09 AM
Bwiese, the whole reason I want to do it is when someone thinks about an ak, they dont think of a short little magazine, they think of a long curving magazine. Its all about the image. If I didnt convert these mags I would have to get rid of them anyway, might as well make use of em and show people how an AK should look even in California.
well anyway here is a copy of the email

Thank you for your letter to the Firearms Division of the California Department of Justice. In response to your inquiry, it is not illegal to possess "high capacity magazines" (with the ability to hold more than 10 rounds) in California. However it is illegal to import them into the state. Under California Penal Code section 12020(a)(2), a person who "manufactures... imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives or lends, any large-capacity magazine" is guilty of a crime that is punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison. You may legally possess the large-capacity magazines in California, as long as you do not sell, or otherwise transfer them.

If you altered the magazines so that they held no more than 10 rounds before moving to California, you could lawfully import them into the state. Once you were in California, you could lawfully possess them. However, you could not legally convert them back into large-capacity magazines without violating 12020(a)(2).

I hope this information is helpful. Please feel free to email or call me if you have any questions.

Alison Merrilees
Deputy Attorney General


She kind of confused me at first by saying I could have them, but after I re-read it she was saying that in the low capacity status.

maxicon
10-07-2005, 8:34 AM
She kind of confused me at first by saying I could have them, but after I re-read it she was saying that in the low capacity status.

What she was saying is that it's legal to possess magazines with &gt;10 round capacity in California. What she didn't say is that you had to have possessed them prior to the ban on importation.

If you didn't have them before that, it's generally illegal to possess them, though there are some loopholes, like finding one on the ground.

As has been pointed out, it's not illegal to possess magazine parts, regardless of the capacity. The safe way to modify mags in California is to have the bodies sent first, modify them to only accept 10 rounds, then have the rest of the parts sent.

There are other variations that could work, like having the mag guts sent to someone else in Cali, who would then give them to you when the bodies were modified.

There's always a risk that you'd find a local DA who would attempt to prosecute such a scheme if they happened to find out, so whether it's worth the risk is a personal call.

max

ace_31
10-05-2010, 9:00 PM
Great info here. I know its quite a revival of a dead thread but I needed the info. Thank you to all the contributors.

The Cable Guy
10-05-2010, 9:15 PM
5 year old thread. Nice...

thatrogue
10-05-2010, 9:25 PM
I started reading Bwiese comments... I started think WTF I thought this issue was all but settled... then quickly realized this was a necrothread... way to wake a zombie Ace

Dead*Reckoned
10-05-2010, 9:30 PM
I was reading this, "has this been done?"

and thinking to myself.... uhhh YES. doh.

santacruzstefan
10-05-2010, 10:25 PM
Interesting how much things have changed in a matter of only 5 years, though.

ALSystems
10-06-2010, 2:50 AM
Interesting how much things have changed in a matter of only 5 years, though.
Interesting the changes in last 5 years.

Here are a few "sticky" threads on making your own 10/30 or 10/20 mags:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=120280
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=147553
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=125645

GrizzlyGuy
10-06-2010, 10:05 AM
Great info here. I know its quite a revival of a dead thread but I needed the info. Thank you to all the contributors.

For future reference, in the FAQ: Magazine Questions (http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/FAQ#Magazine_Questions)

IWc
10-07-2010, 1:42 AM
Better referring to Penal Codes. (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=124709)