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View Full Version : SA 1911 marring casing face (NOT dents on the casing walls)


oogabooga
08-20-2009, 2:03 AM
I just picked up a brand new SA 1911-A1 Loaded and took it to the range the other day. Everything functioned well with ~150 rounds of factory brass cased plinking ammo through it. What I did notice, though, was that the edge of the face of the casing (flat, rear side with the headstamp) would consistently get marred. I'm guessing it has to do something with the ejector or extractor, but I'm no 1911 pro.

I don't know where this mark is occurring (ie. ejector side, extractor side, etc.), but I did notice that the mark would occur on the side of the casing that is blackened. I never bothered to check the casings for the black residue when shooting other people's or rental 1911, but I'm assuming this is normal. So if the marring is appearing consistently above the black side, that may clue you in to where the mar is happening.

Just from my observations, it looks like the ejector is hitting the casings HARD, and the blackening is due to the carbon unable to escape from the closed off side of the slide? But what do I know, I'm probably wrong.
Also, are these casings still reloadable? or has too much damage been done for the reloads to be reliable. (and no, I will not send them to you for proper disposal :p )

http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/S5U365TXI8/CasingRims1.jpg

http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/41OQY4W9P2/CasingRims2.jpg

http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/ABG188V96Q/CasingRims3.jpg

cope113
08-20-2009, 2:21 AM
Im no expert but it looks like the extractor isnt going over the rim and seating all the way. is the gun ejecting shells properly?

SCMA-1
08-20-2009, 6:26 AM
Im no expert but it looks like the extractor isnt going over the rim and seating all the way. is the gun ejecting shells properly?

The extractor doesn't go over the case rim; the case rim slides under the extractor lip.

Those marks are definitely ejector marks. Although lots of guns will leave light extractor or ejector marks on the case rim, heavy markings could eventually make the casings unreliable (for reloading) as the deformations may cause the case head to hang up on the breach face recess. Looks like you have fairly high slide velocity. What load are you using? What's the ejection pattern look like? Is it tossing the brass 15 feet or dropping them about 3 feet away from you? You can do some tuning by changing the recoil spring weight. The primers look good, BTW; no sign of high chamber pressures.

SCMA-1

jlmurphy
08-20-2009, 7:12 AM
Make sure the mainspring ( hammer spring ) and recoil spring are up to spec, I think it is 25 and 16 lbs, but I can't be sure, both of these slow the slide in recoil. You can polish the ejector tip to remove the sharp edges. You can also install a firing pin stop with a square bottom to slow the slide's recoil. If you really want to understand the 1911, buy Kuhnhausen's two books on the 1911 form Brownell's or Midway.

ojisan
08-20-2009, 8:18 AM
Normal ejector dents.
You can use the dents to count how many times the case has been reloaded.

JTROKS
08-20-2009, 9:22 AM
Those are some hard dents coming from the ejector. Does the recoil spring seem kind of light for hardball shooting? I'd like to see pictures of the extractor where the rim of the case slides through during feeding.

SCMA-1
08-20-2009, 9:28 AM
Those are some hard dents coming from the ejector. Does the recoil spring seem kind of light for hardball shooting? I'd like to see pictures of the extractor where the rim of the case slides through during feeding.

That's what I was thinking; from a stock Springfield Armory also.:confused:

m1match
08-20-2009, 9:32 AM
You did not say which SA Loaded you bought. If you have the micro compact size, then what you have is probably normal. Small 1911s in .45 ACP have much higher slide velocities than the bigger ones because the slide is much lighter. Higher slide velocities mean the casings will be hitting the ejector with more force.

If you have a full size 1911, then it might be something else. Stock spring weights on a full size 1911 in .45 ACP are 23 lb mainspring and 16 lb recoil spring. Since yours is a brand new Springfield, there shouldn't be any problems with out of spec springs. I'd say there's probably nothing seriously wrong with your gun, but my 1911s don't leave such deep ejector marks. You could take a look at the tip of the ejector and see if it has any sharp burrs or edges on it. If it does, you could take some very fine emery paper and very lightly debur the edges of the tip of the ejector.

The soot on the casings is normal and your's are still very reloadable.

roc
08-20-2009, 9:41 AM
mark the end of the ejector with a little crayon and see if that gets transfered to the cartridge and you will know for sure.

oogabooga
08-20-2009, 9:42 AM
Thanks for the insight guys!


SCMA-1:
I tried a few brands of new, factory ammo to see if they all ran well through it. The loads that I shot were:
-Winchester White Box 230gr
-CCI Blazer Brass 230gr
-Federal American Eagle 230gr

They all fired fine (with a couple FTF, but I have a feeling it was a specific mag problem, and is irrelevant to the current problem at hand).
I don't know the ejection pattern as there were giant concrete dividers between the lanes (Sunnyvale Rod and Gun), but watching my friend shooting, it sure looked like it ejected the casings with authority.

When should I decide to take some action such as changing the recoil spring weight. I'm assuming I'd have to get a stronger spring?

Thanks for the reassurance of the primers!

jlmurphy:
I, myself, don't have any way to test the weight of the mainspring or recoil spring, so is there any other way for me to diagnose the problem? I can take it back to the range and see if the gun is infact ejecting the casings like a mini-14.

I think I'd like to avoid polishing the ejector for now if I can do a simple spring swap. If I continue shooting this 1911 in its current state, are there any negative effects to the structure/durability of the gun? If there are no mal effects, could I just shoot a few hundred more rounds, and wear down the ejector "naturally"?

ojisan:
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but there seems to be some truth in your statement :p
If you do speak the truth (the casings are still reloadable and these markings are normal and will cause no ill effects on the gun), I think I'll keep shooting the 1911, while researching new springs, and see if the marks go away. But I'll still be interested in fixing the problem regardless, so bring on the suggestions!

JTROCKS:
The recoil spring doesn't seem any lighter than any other 1911 I've shot. But I don't think I'm qualified to make that decision.

I'll get some pics of the extractor in a sec.

oogabooga
08-20-2009, 9:47 AM
You did not say which SA Loaded you bought. If you have the micro compact size, then what you have is probably normal. Small 1911s in .45 ACP have much higher slide velocities than the bigger ones because the slide is much lighter. Higher slide velocities mean the casings will be hitting the ejector with more force.

If you have a full size 1911, then it might be something else. Stock spring weights on a full size 1911 in .45 ACP are 23 lb mainspring and 16 lb recoil spring. Since yours is a brand new Springfield, there shouldn't be any problems with out of spec springs. I'd say there's probably nothing seriously wrong with your gun, but my 1911s don't leave such deep ejector marks. You could take a look at the tip of the ejector and see if it has any sharp burrs or edges on it. If it does, you could take some very fine emery paper and very lightly debur the edges of the tip of the ejector.

The soot on the casings is normal and your's are still very reloadable.

I apologize for not stating the specific model. It is a Springfield Loaded, Full Size, Parkerized (px9109lp).

I may take some fine emery paper to it as you and jlmurphy suggested. It doesn't seem like it has any burs, but it does seem a bit sharp!

Thanks for the reassurance about the problem being nothing major, and the casings still being reloadable. (Now I won't be afraid to go out and shoot the thing while trying to resolve the spring issue

Here are some pics of the ejector (JTROCKS, I accidentally took pictures of the ejector, not extractor, so I happen to have these readily available :o ):
http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/CGWC22QG96/Ejector1.jpg

http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/0SS2Z9587G/Ejector2.jpg

SCMA-1
08-20-2009, 9:56 AM
Everything looks OK to me. I just looked at a couple of my 1911's with similar extended ejectors, I don't get the deep marks you are getting. Are the ejector marks similar on the other brands of ammunition you have shot?

SCMA-1

oogabooga
08-20-2009, 10:01 AM
Everything looks OK to me. I just looked at a couple of my 1911's with similar extended ejectors, I don't get the deep marks you are getting. Are the ejector marks similar on the other brands of ammunition you have shot?

SCMA-1

Yup, the markings are the same on the CCI and the Federal. I'd take a pic but it's exactly the same shape and depth.

P.S. Didn't mean for the two consecutive posts above. I meant too edit but was clicking too fast and quoted without realizing. Also sucks that the 2 posts are on different pages. (assuming you have 10 posts per page). So in case you thought I ignored you, go back to the last post on page one :)

SCMA-1
08-20-2009, 10:08 AM
Well, I'm at a loss. As previously mentioned, the marks won't prevent you from reloading them into reliable rounds; it's only if the case rim or inside/outside face of the rims are significantly deformed where you may run into reliability issues.

I'm going to assume SA put a stock 16lb recoil spring in there for you but you never know with QC nowadays. Do you have a buddy with a similar 1911 you can compare with? I have dozens of Wolff recoil springs in all different weights for tuning my 1911's; if you were in the Socal South Bay (Los Angeles area), I could let you try some of mine next time I'm at a local range.

SCMA-1

oogabooga
08-20-2009, 10:26 AM
Well, I'm at a loss. As previously mentioned, the marks won't prevent you from reloading them into reliable rounds; it's only if the case rim or inside/outside face of the rims are significantly deformed where you may run into reliability issues.

I'm going to assume SA put a stock 16lb recoil spring in there for you but you never know with QC nowadays. Do you have a buddy with a similar 1911 you can compare with? I have dozens of Wolff recoil springs in all different weights for tuning my 1911's; if you were in the Socal South Bay (Los Angeles area), I could let you try some of mine next time I'm at a local range.

SCMA-1

Unfortunately, I don't have someone instate with a 1911. And unfortunately, again, I won't be in the Socal area for another month or two. How would I go about testing different spring weights? Assuming there is a stock 16lb recoil spring in it, could I just buy increasing weights and see if the markings go away? There isn't any calibration required for replacing the springs, right? And the "worst" thing that could happen is the slide short stroking if the spring is too strong?

SCMA-1
08-20-2009, 10:36 AM
Unfortunately, I don't have someone instate with a 1911. And unfortunately, again, I won't be in the Socal area for another month or two. How would I go about testing different spring weights? Assuming there is a stock 16lb recoil spring in it, could I just buy increasing weights and see if the markings go away? There isn't any calibration required for replacing the springs, right? And the "worst" thing that could happen is the slide short stroking if the spring is too strong?

As previously stated, 16lb is the stock recoil spring weight for government size 1911's; you can pick one up for a few bucks to swap yours out just to confirm that you have the correct spring. If you can't find one locally, you can order them from many online sources including Brownells or Midway.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=51016/sku/Factory_Std__16_lb__CS_Recoil_Spring

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=443973

Once again, I wouldn't be too concerned about the marks; I've seen some where they actually deform and bend the rim of the case making them unreliable for reloading; that's not the issue with yours. I think you probably just want to verify you have the correct recoil spring by purchasing another one and swapping yours out.

SCMA-1

oogabooga
08-20-2009, 10:53 AM
As previously stated, 16lb is the stock recoil spring weight for government size 1911's; you can pick one up for a few bucks to swap yours out just to confirm that you have the correct spring. If you can't find one locally, you can order them from many online sources including Brownells or Midway.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/sid=51016/sku/Factory_Std__16_lb__CS_Recoil_Spring

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=443973

Once again, I wouldn't be too concerned about the marks; I've seen some where they actually deform and bend the rim of the case making them unreliable for reloading; that's not the issue with yours. I think you probably just want to verify you have the correct recoil spring by purchasing another one and swapping yours out.

SCMA-1

Gotchya. Thanks for the links. I'll pick one up!

JTROKS
08-21-2009, 9:08 AM
I've worked on a 1911 that had a similar problem like yours. Can you check and see how much play does the firing pin stop has by looking at the extractor the same way in the first picture, then pushing the firing pin stop and the end of the extractor forward as hard as you can. See if part of the extractor that is hidden in the slide protrudes out.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh257/joshuatroy/DSC04170.jpg

Now look at this one.
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh257/joshuatroy/DSC04172.jpg
if you look at the heavy ding mark on your brass and visualize where the top of the ejector should meet the bottom of the shell it doesn't match. Even when the chamber of the barrel tilts down the ding mark on the shell is high to be the tip of the highest point of the ejector. If you can find some virgin 45 acp brass, (just the case and no primers/powder/bullet) and load it carefully via magazine and assisting it into the chamber. Pull the trigger and extract it out very carefully to where the ejector just pushes on it. Now see if the deep ding is there.

m1match
08-21-2009, 9:19 AM
Good pickup JTROKS- I hadn't looked at where the dents were on the case head vs. where the ejector would hit the case. That's a great picture looking through the slide at the breachface by the way. The deepest dent in the case is not where the ejector would be hitting the case. If you look at the pictures in oogabooga's post #11, doesn't it look like there's a raised lump on the breachface above the ejector? A small file and a few minutes would smooth that out easily. I think that lump of metal is what's causing the big dents in the cases.

JTROKS
08-21-2009, 9:49 AM
Looks like it, but sometimes pictures can be deceiving. May have to clear that up with the OP.

oogabooga
08-21-2009, 3:45 PM
WOW! Great catches guys! Sorry for responding so late, but I've gotta make this quick. Already late to a dentist appointment but I wanted to give you guys the pics I took ASAP

You were right, m1match. There is a little burr. Whether that is where the markings are happening, I haven't had time to figure it out yet. I haven't had the chance to do the thing JTROCKS suggested with a virgin casing (though I don't have one anyways unfortunately)
http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/HNPX07J3GX/Extractor-Burr.jpg

Here is a pic of the Extractor as it sits idle with no pressure:
http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/RCL9B0UD10/Extractor-Idle.jpg

Here it is with a little pressure. There is SOME Play, but very little:
http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/UH06Q80843/Extractor-Pressure.jpg

Here is the firing pin stop Idle:
http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/48TV173M64/Extractor-IdlewithFiringPinStop.jpg

Here it is with pressure. The firing pin stop tilts a little bit when pushing on the extractor:
http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/ADNVCMM946/Extractor-PressurewithFiringPinStop.jpg

One last thing I noticed, There was a "462" marked on the inside of the slide. this is probably from the manufacturer, but thought I'd post it here too:
http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/M6R85T91NF/InnerSlideMarkings.jpg


Sorry this seems really rushed and unclear. I'll clear it up later tonight if I have the time. Just wanted to post this stuff to get your guys' diagnosis in the meantime. Thanks again!

oogabooga
08-21-2009, 5:04 PM
MORE FINDINGS!!!

So I don't have a virgin casing to use, but I did have dummy rounds that were pretty new. I oriented the dummy round so I knew which side the ejector was on. I used black sharpie to color the ejector to see if it would leave a mark on the dummy round. The black marking didn't make a black mark on the dummy round, but what it did do was show silver on the ejector where the dummy round hit (Picture 1 below).

I then looked at the dummy round (Picture 2 below), and noticed that the marking the ejector made was sort of where the mark on the ejected live round casing was (Picture 3 below). Only the tip of the ejector got hit the dummy round, but maybe that's because me manually ejecting the round is not nearly as powerful as a live round's recoil?

ETA: So I did some mock pictures of where the ejector would hit on the dummy round and compared it to the live round casing and they don't seem to match...hmmm...Pictures 4 and 5 below.

NOTE: There are 2 marks on the dummy round in Picture 2 because I did the test twice with the dummy round right side up (so the A-Zoom was at 12-oclock) and upside down.

Now with this information and the previous post above this one that I made with the extractor pics, what can be said? I noticed that my extractor was further towards the bolt face than JTROKS. Is this contributing to the problem?

Picture 1:
http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/OL088475C4/Ejector3.jpg

Picture 2:
http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/5B0Q4L7QA3/Ejector4.jpg

Picture 3:
http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/A0SE259Y5S/Ejector5.jpg

Picture 4:
http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/LARUN057CG/Ejector6.jpg

Picture 5:
http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/O1770RN11N/Ejector7.jpg

JTROKS
08-21-2009, 8:34 PM
Now with this information and the previous post above this one that I made with the extractor pics, what can be said? I noticed that my extractor was further towards the bolt face than JTROKS. Is this contributing to the problem?

LOL! That's because my STI slide is for 40/10mm breechface. Sorry about that.


Well, the out of spec extractor and loose firing pin stop theory is not it.
I looked at the picture of the burr and looks like that's your culprit, good eye M1match.

oogabooga
08-22-2009, 3:57 AM
LOL! That's because my STI slide is for 40/10mm breechface. Sorry about that.


Well, the out of spec extractor and loose firing pin stop theory is not it.
I looked at the picture of the burr and looks like that's your culprit, good eye M1match.

Ahh, that would explain the difference in extractors :TFH:

Here's a closer pic of the burr. It's a horizontal-ish line a little above the axis of the firing pin hole. Is it within the realm of possibility that this horizontal line creates the box-like marking on the casings? Also, what would be the best way to get rid of this burr? a small file and some patience? Or is there a better way to do it.

http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/88EV5YOI27/BoltFaceBurr.jpg

JTROKS
08-22-2009, 6:56 AM
If it's sharp and high enough, yes that's your bandit. If you can imagine a live round sitting in the chamber. Upon firing the pressure is up, but the 1911's link system delays unlocking until the pressure is low enough. The pressure is pushing the case to the breech face while it's being yanked down by the link system, thus making the vertical gouge mark.

To remove it, my procedure would be a couple of small files while using a lot of light and eye loop/hands free magnifier. Then polish with 240 to 800 grit Emery. Do no use a Dremmel, you want to keep the breech face flat. Or you can just call Springfield and explain to them what is going on, you may just have to send in the slide.

m1match
08-22-2009, 9:06 AM
This thread is a good case of good old fashion problem solving. The fix is easy . If you don't want to attempt it yourself, call Springfield and I'm sure they be responsive. I'd think you'd only need to send the slide.

ojisan
08-22-2009, 7:42 PM
Ojisan is never sarcastic.
Didn't mean it to "sound" that way.
I'm not sure if that burr aligns correctly with the dents in the case.
Do let us know your results.
I grabbed one of my plinking-only reloads for .45 and did my best to get you a good photo of the case head after 10-12 uses, but I am limited by my camera.
Anyway, you can see lots of ejector-caused edge denting and chewing:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn249/ojisan420/P8220042.jpg

oogabooga
08-22-2009, 10:10 PM
Ojisan is never sarcastic.
Didn't mean it to "sound" that way.
I'm not sure if that burr aligns correctly with the dents in the case.
Do let us know your results.
I grabbed one of my plinking-only reloads for .45 and did my best to get you a good photo of the case head after 10-12 uses, but I am limited by my camera.
Anyway, you can see lots of ejector-caused edge denting and chewing:
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn249/ojisan420/P8220042.jpg

That made me laugh just imagining someone saying that :p (talking in the third person gets me every time). But WOW! Now that's a dented up casing. I don't feel so bad about my casings' marks. Thanks for the pic. I'll definitely report whats up after I take it out to the range again.

I took your advice, JTROKS, and just used a file and different grit emery instead of sending it to SA. I'm an impatient fool, and like using my hands (though I'm pretty terrible at it). I got it down so it's pretty smooth. it ain't as good as it gets, but:
1) I want to see if this will reduce the marking on the casings. If so, then the burr WAS the culprit. And...
2) Make sure I didn't muck up too badly with my sub-amateur tool skillz and get you guys' opinion on if I should do the finishing sanding or stop, desist, and step away from the slide.

Anyways, here's where it's at right now. It doesn't seem like I took off much material on the breech face. Just mainly the black/parked finish (which I'm assuming woulda worn off sooner or later). It looks pretty flat and even to me.

http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/N94P86PCN5/BoltFaceBurr2.jpg

http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/63V1W4E240/BoltFaceBurr3.jpg

bin31z
08-22-2009, 10:22 PM
I'd say replace the springs with factory spec ones. Seems like your slide is coming back to fast and it could be a worn recoil spring. You'll definitely want to get that replace because a worn recoil spring will increase wear on your frame and slide. I would also check the ejector face for burrs or machining marks but I suspect its the recoil spring.

bin31z
08-22-2009, 10:25 PM
Hmmm..i'd prolly take it to a gunsmith to make sure. If you polish too much off the breech face, it could cause head space problems. Should be ok though, I would just make sure thought. Also, if that burr was causing the problem, I would suspect that it would be causing feeding problems as well...as the round will get caught on the burr and fail to seat properly against the breech face.

oogabooga
08-22-2009, 10:34 PM
I'd say replace the springs with factory spec ones. Seems like your slide is coming back to fast and it could be a worn recoil spring. You'll definitely want to get that replace because a worn recoil spring will increase wear on your frame and slide. I would also check the ejector face for burrs or machining marks but I suspect its the recoil spring.

Well the 1911 is brand new, but I did just order a Wolff 16 pound spring yesterday so I'll replace it regardless.

I spent most of the time with 1500 grit so I don't think I took off too much.
In my initial 150 rounds, there were a couple FTF, but they were always with the factory mags instead of the mccormicks, and if a weak recoil spring is really the problem, then it coulda been because of that too. Or it could have just been because of lack of break-in. ooor the burr like you mentioned haha. Too many ways to cause FTF.

I feel like it should be pretty safe to take to the range, but if enough of you guys say it isn't, I'll take your words for it.

m1match
08-22-2009, 10:37 PM
You didn't do anything to damage your firearm. I'd take it to the range and fire it with the original springs to see how it does.

oogabooga
08-22-2009, 10:48 PM
You didn't do anything to damage your firearm. I'd take it to the range and fire it with the original springs to see how it does.

ROGER ROGER
I'll take it to the range and collect my casings. Thanks again for spotting that burr.

oogabooga
08-23-2009, 4:33 PM
Soooo. Took it to the range this afternoon and seems like everything is A-okay!
I shot some factory Remington 230gr FMJ and CCI Blazer Brass 230gr FMJ and collected a good amount of the casings (there were a lot of people at the range and a lot of them got lost in the chaos).

A good portion of the casings didn't even have any markings on the face. The ones that did only had a small line or a dot, which I'm assuming is from the ejector. The extent of the case markings are in the pictures below.

I positioned all of the rounds so the headstamp was more or less right side up (R-P and CCI at 12 o'clock).

If I get the thumbs up from you guys saying those are normal ejector markings, I think we can call this case closed :D

Remington:
http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/0L6910702G/CasingRims4.jpg

CCI Blazer Brass:
http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/29J5AO5163/CasingRims5.jpg

Can't even notice the burr remains when caked over with carbon fouling:
http://filestogo.com/files/1006983/E9LY234P3W/BoltFaceWithoutBurr.jpg

SCMA-1
08-23-2009, 7:10 PM
Those marks look perfectly acceptable to me. I had originally discounted the blemish on the breach face because the marks on your cases looked disproportionately deep compared the the size of the blemish. I think your problem has been solved.;)

SCMA-1

bin31z
08-23-2009, 10:42 PM
Awesome! Looks like you diagnosed your 1911 problem! Congrats!!

JTROKS
08-23-2009, 10:50 PM
Here's to M1match eagle eyes!!! Hip! Hip!

oogabooga
08-23-2009, 11:00 PM
Thanks again guys, all of you who chimed in. Hopefully this'll be the last problem for awhile, but you can be for damn sure I'll be back here if another one comes up :p

ojisan
08-24-2009, 9:27 AM
Good to go!
Good clean-up job on the burr.
:)