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ledman
08-17-2009, 6:35 PM
I have been purchasing firearms for over 20 years, NEVER had one hiccup. I hold a current C&R 03 FFL. I recently purchased from a friend at work, a 53Russian SKS and a Mossberg 590 shotgun. I have not purchased a weapon in over 4 years. We did a DROS at Turners in Orange CA. Somehow Turners had my old number and was not able to contact me. I go to pick up my firearms today, and there is a delay notice. This is my first ever PPT that has been DROS'ed. Everything else I did was with my C&R for C&R guns only. Maybe thats why? becasueit's a PPT?
I call the CA DOJ and they want a copy of my DD-214. SO, I faxed one over as requested. No what? Will they call me, or Turners to release the firearms? Is there a time limit for the CA DOJ to respond? If they do not respond, can Turners release the firearms legally to me after a certain amount of time?
I just wondered, why? I do not have a dishonorable discharge. I have no criminal record. The guy are Turners said it could just be a random check, and not to worry about it as long as I do not have a dishonorable discharge.

Just curious if any of you have insight on this.

Thanks in advance!

Fjold
08-17-2009, 6:49 PM
Someone with your same name got a Dishonorable. They should be able to verify it from SSNs.

ledman
08-17-2009, 6:52 PM
Someone with your same name got a Dishonorable. They should be able to verify it from SSNs.

Ahhh...OK, that would explain it, they must have gotten it recently, or within the last 4 years or so as it's never been an issue. Even the BATF did not require a copy of my DD-214 when I got my 03 FFL.
I forgot to mention, I was discharged in Nov. 1990
Thanks for your quick answer!

ke6guj
08-17-2009, 7:07 PM
Somehow Turners had my old number and was not able to contact me.that was one thing I didn't like about Turners and their computer system. They had my old number in the system for ~10 years and every time I bought a new firearm, I'd tell them the number had changed and they would just handright the new number on the receipt. I'd tell them to change in the computer and they said they would. they never did. I finally got the manager to change it in the computer while he was ringing up an S/O for me , but for ~10 years, they kept the old number in the system.

ledman
08-17-2009, 7:19 PM
What is funny, on the shotgun form, they had all my old info, on the form for the SKS, they had all my new info...my address is the same, except for a different Apt number, as we moved within our complex. Maybe that threw the DOJ off?

And yes! Thats exactly what they did, they wrote it on the form, and said he would check it out in the computer, lol

tenpercentfirearms
08-18-2009, 9:24 AM
They usually don't take long to get that squared away. Basically they should get it firgured out and I believe the DOJ will call you back. If not, they will definitely notify Turners and you can call them back until they say you are legit or ask to speak to someone you figure is squared away and ask them to call you back when you get cleared.

I have had delays that last only three hours.

ledman
08-18-2009, 7:39 PM
They usually don't take long to get that squared away. Basically they should get it firgured out and I believe the DOJ will call you back. If not, they will definitely notify Turners and you can call them back until they say you are legit or ask to speak to someone you figure is squared away and ask them to call you back when you get cleared.

I have had delays that last only three hours.

Yeah, I actually had the DOJ call me back twice today. Once to confirm they got my DD-214. Then, a different person called me and They received my paperwork, and said it shouldn't be a problem, for some reason, my file was "marked" by the FBI, I guess they did not have any record of my type of discharge from the Military, and wanted to make sure I was not a Dishonorable discharge. They said the same, it could take 48 hours to update in the system.
I called Turners, and spoke with Fred, a good guy, one that seems he knows what he is doing, as he has worked there awhile, and told him the deal, so he is on the look out for it. Also the DOJ told me, they(Turners) should call me right away when they get the green light. So, now I wait, more.

dshortone
08-18-2009, 8:10 PM
Fred is one of the most honest guys I've dealt with. Fantastic guy!

The DOJ usually takes a day or two to catch up with the dealer and give them a green light. You should be golden by Thursday!

ledman
08-19-2009, 3:42 PM
Fred is one of the most honest guys I've dealt with. Fantastic guy!

The DOJ usually takes a day or two to catch up with the dealer and give them a green light. You should be golden by Thursday!

Yeah, I hope so! I have NEVER had this happen to me, in the 19 years since I have been discharge. It is making me stress out that they will find some stupid reason to deny me! lol

ledman
08-19-2009, 8:50 PM
I have DROS'ed 2 other long guns in PPT the past 2 days, one today, one yesterday, while this other one is on delay, it would be funny if these others went through fine while I am still waiting for the first deal, lol.

bravoecho
08-20-2009, 7:16 AM
I too am in a "delay" with a Garand from CMP. It would have shipped yesterday had NICS check not been in delay status. Now, I have to go through some "appeal" process. It is strange that in previous months, I have purchased firearms with the NICS check being quickly approved in addition to receiving my 03 collectors license. And now a "delay" with CMP's check. What a bummer!!

cousinkix1953
08-20-2009, 8:15 AM
Do these DoJ beauracrats really think that the BATFE would issue an 03 C&R to somebody with a DD? It took you longer to get that piece of paper and you know that the feds ran a more extensive background check on you before. Sacramento has done little to disarm the criminals; so they make themselves look useful by harassing law abiding citizens instead...

ledman
08-20-2009, 5:39 PM
Do these DoJ beauracrats really think that the BATFE would issue an 03 C&R to somebody with a DD? It took you longer to get that piece of paper and you know that the feds ran a more extensive background check on you before. Sacramento has done little to disarm the criminals; so they make themselves look useful by harassing law abiding citizens instead...

EXACTLY! I even told the guy Chris that called me from the DOJ, that I have a current C&R 03 FFL, as I have NO criminal record. SO, as of today, I am still on delay. He told me it "should'nt be a problem", meaning to get the delay released but he said it was not up to him, he just collects the data and turns it all in.
I have not heard from the other 2 dealers I have guns DROSing through right now. I would think I would have heard from them if there was a problem.
I did not put my SSN this time on the form, so I dunno.
if they wanted to deny me, I am sure they would have done it by now.

ledman
08-20-2009, 7:11 PM
I too am in a "delay" with a Garand from CMP. It would have shipped yesterday had NICS check not been in delay status. Now, I have to go through some "appeal" process. It is strange that in previous months, I have purchased firearms with the NICS check being quickly approved in addition to receiving my 03 collectors license. And now a "delay" with CMP's check. What a bummer!!

I had a similiar problem, if you REALLY want your stuff, do it. It took about 4-6 months, then finally out of the blue, I go the clearacne from the BATF/DOJ that I was eligble, BUT, the cert was only good for 30 days rom date of issuance, SO, meedless to say, I did not have the money to buy at that time, so I got some CMP garands with my C&R 03 FFL from a private party, for just a fraction more than what the CMP wanted.

GL!

Wonderwhippet
08-20-2009, 10:12 PM
If this transaction isn't completed within 30 days, don't be surprised if you have to start the DROS all over again.

tenpercentfirearms
08-21-2009, 8:47 AM
If this transaction isn't completed within 30 days, don't be surprised if you have to start the DROS all over again.

Not true. If the DOJ delays you, it delays the 30 days. I don't have relevant code on that right now, but I have had this discussion with the DOJ. Plus it just wouldn't make sense. If the DOJ delays you, that is not your fault and completely beyond your control. They can't tell you, "Well you should have gotten here within 30 days, sorry."

And you should never put your SSN on your 4473. It says optional. Screw them. They do not need it. I do not submit your SSN to anyone from the 4473. So not putting your SSN on the 4473 did nothing for this transaction.

ledman
08-21-2009, 5:31 PM
Thats good to know about the 30 days thing, I was thinking that in 2 more weeks I would have to DROS it again, but that doesnt make sense if it is still delayed. So, that does make ense in waht you said. If you can find that code, that will be appreciated, I am sure Turners will want to charge me something if this takes longer than 30 days.

ALSO, I called the CA DOJ today ay 324pm...the lady Ronell who is handling my case had already left for the weekend, and my transaction is STILL in delay status. There were no additional notes, as Darlene, the gal I spoke with, (very nice BTW), told me, but she said she saw my other 2 DROS's pending, meaning no one had looked at them yet, and she suggeested I tell RONELL on Monday, as she is supposed to call me back as Darlene is going to print out my DROS and put it on her chair with my phone number, that way, someone familiar with my case can proceed with all my transactions at once, or Darlene said, another person could get my case, and basically would have to go through the whole process again.

Redundant...I know...frustrating...yes.

billslugg
08-21-2009, 6:44 PM
And you should never put your SSN on your 4473. It says optional.

If you want to minimize the chance of a delay, include your SS number.

Many people share the same name. As long as everyone in the US with your same name is clean, you will not be delayed. Without the SS# they have to do some sorting by birthdate, town, etc.

It does reduce the probability of your SS# being eyeballed at whatever FFL is holding the paper document.

Source: Interview with ATF agent.

ledman
08-21-2009, 6:49 PM
If you want to minimize the chance of a delay, include your SS number.

Many people share the same name. As long as everyone in the US with your same name is clean, you will not be delayed. Without the SS# they have to do some sorting by birthdate, town, etc.

It does reduce the probability of your SS# being eyeballed at whatever FFL is holding the paper document.

Source: Interview with ATF agent.

I always have put it on before, even this one, my first delay ever. The next 2, I did not put my SSN on, just to see what would happen. They are still pending.

ke6guj
08-21-2009, 8:03 PM
If you want to minimize the chance of a delay, include your SS number.

Many people share the same name. As long as everyone in the US with your same name is clean, you will not be delayed. Without the SS# they have to do some sorting by birthdate, town, etc.

It does reduce the probability of your SS# being eyeballed at whatever FFL is holding the paper document.

Source: Interview with ATF agent.

Some of us would rather deal with the possibility of a delay than to list an optional SS#

tenpercentfirearms
08-21-2009, 8:26 PM
If you want to minimize the chance of a delay, include your SS number.

Many people share the same name. As long as everyone in the US with your same name is clean, you will not be delayed. Without the SS# they have to do some sorting by birthdate, town, etc.

It does reduce the probability of your SS# being eyeballed at whatever FFL is holding the paper document.

Source: Interview with ATF agent.

FUD! Your SSN is not transmitted to the DOJ, PERIOD! So this delay was in no way caused by a SSN or a lack of a SSN.

Further, I will bet a complete Stag Model 1H upper that when the DOJ contacted Turner's with a delay, they did not ask for the OPs SSN either.

The DOJ has everything they want to know about you from your DOB and DL #. They do not need your SSN and they do not ask for your SSN.

Other states could vary depending on how NICS works. I know CA DROS does not ask for SSN so it is pointless to put it. I have NEVER been contacted by anyone from CA DOJ or BATFE asking for a customer's SSN in relation to a firearms transaction in the four years I have been in business.

Ron-Solo
08-21-2009, 9:02 PM
Some of us would rather deal with the possibility of a delay than to list an optional SS#

You think the government doesn't have access to your SSN ? :rolleyes:


With that, I don't list my SSN either. :43:

ke6guj
08-21-2009, 9:07 PM
You think the government doesn't have access to your SSN ? :rolleyes:its not the government we are worried about. It is the fact that our SSN, if on a 4473, must be maintained by the FFL for 10 or 20 years. What safeguards are there that at no point will the info contained on it ever fall into the hands of someone who could use it for identity theft reasons?

ledman
08-21-2009, 9:41 PM
The CA DOJ states on their site that there system is a NAME based system, not by SSN, not by fingerprints, just by your name and identifying descriptions, such as height, weight, hair and eye color.

tenpercentfirearms
08-22-2009, 7:19 AM
its not the government we are worried about. It is the fact that our SSN, if on a 4473, must be maintained by the FFL for 10 or 20 years. What safeguards are there that at no point will the info contained on it ever fall into the hands of someone who could use it for identity theft reasons?

That is exactly why I tell customers not to put it on there. They don't really know me or who might have access to my records that now have their name, address, DOB, DL # and now SSN. All I have to do is con them into giving me their mother's maiden name and I am set.

ledman
08-22-2009, 9:50 AM
I called Turnesrs the other day, before I had called the CA DOJ, and the guy(Brad) I spoke with seemed annoyed that I was calling. He told me that they would have called me if the delay had been released...I then said, nicley, that you couln't even contact me when the delay started, as the first page had the wrong info, if someone was a little more pro-active, they would have noticed, that on the actual DROS form, the info was correct and would have been able to contact me sooner to resolve this matter...that shut him up. I am never DROS'ing a gun at Turners again, unless I happen to buy one there which probably won't happen.

And to think that your SSN would be floating around in some FFL's file...for 20 years, now that idea I do not like.

billslugg
08-22-2009, 10:02 AM
FUD! Your SSN is not transmitted to the DOJ, PERIOD! So this delay was in no way caused by a SSN or a lack of a SSN.


In retrospect, the ATF agents were not referring to putting a SS# on a 4473. We were discussing whether I should put my SS# on form in applying for an FFL. I stand corrected.

kemasa
08-22-2009, 12:20 PM
In CA the SSN on the 4473 is not used in any way, shape or form. It is marked as being optional as well. In some states it *might* be used to help identify you, but the SSN is not to be used for identification (says that on my card), but people should refuse to give it out to everyone and their brother anytime anyone asks.

I tell customers that it is optional and that it is not used in CA at all.

It is best to not have it written down anywhere that it is not needed. Perhaps you trust the FFL, but it is best to not take the chance that someone might make use of it. On the FFL side, it is best to not have the information since if the customer becomes the victim of identity theft, they might blame the FFL due to all the information that they have in one place. This is why I do not want it written down, even if the customer does not care.

ledman
08-24-2009, 6:47 PM
FINALLY! Got my rifles today. Long story short, it was released yesterday, Sunday...I called the DOJ today, Ronell told me she released it yesterday, I guess she does some work from home. She was surprised that Turners had not called me yet, as it was 230pm today that I spoke with her. She approved this one, and my pending DROS'es and assued me I should not have any more problems in the future as she "fixed" the problem.

SO, I call Turners, they have me on hold for like 10 minutes, even though they told me they had the approved after delay sheets, I guess they have to call to confirm? Does this sound right? Well, anyways, I got my guns and I am GTG!

jrsportssupply
08-31-2009, 12:07 AM
The most valuable merchandise in my shop (to a thief) would be the collection of 4473s with SSNs, if I didn't tell customers to leave that section blank. I can't afford to lock up all the boxes of 4473s.

NorthCountySC
09-20-2009, 3:27 PM
FUD! Your SSN is not transmitted to the DOJ, PERIOD! So this delay was in no way caused by a SSN or a lack of a SSN.

Further, I will bet a complete Stag Model 1H upper that when the DOJ contacted Turner's with a delay, they did not ask for the OPs SSN either.

The DOJ has everything they want to know about you from your DOB and DL #. They do not need your SSN and they do not ask for your SSN.

Other states could vary depending on how NICS works. I know CA DROS does not ask for SSN so it is pointless to put it. I have NEVER been contacted by anyone from CA DOJ or BATFE asking for a customer's SSN in relation to a firearms transaction in the four years I have been in business.


Its has nothing to do with the ssn at all. If they asked for you DD-214 that means that the DOJ wanted to clear up the fact that you were honorably released from the military. If they asked for you SSN its, as another guy mentioned before, to help clear up that you are able to purchase a firearm and they didnt confused you with someone else whom shares your name. The 4473 form asks for you ssn as optional info, but the DROS never asks for it. and if the DOJ needs that info they will only ask the purchaser..never the business.