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eric90503
08-17-2009, 11:45 AM
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1923mack
08-17-2009, 12:09 PM
Was reading a gun rag last night, Wilson and Nighthawk 1911's were around $2600. or so.

JTROKS
08-17-2009, 12:21 PM
I saw a guy at the range a week ago and he had a Springfield Loaded model and a Sig GSR no rail. He was shooting 2.5" groups with ammo he claims he reloaded with Titegroup and 200 grain lead semi-wadcutter. The quality of 1911s now a days is way higher than the old Colts with drop in barrels of 80s and 90s.

sholling
08-17-2009, 12:49 PM
In my opinion the finest target/match 1911 in your price range is a Smith & Wesson Performance Center PC1911. These are not mass produced like Kimbers, or the Springfield Armory loaded or TRP, or the lower priced S&W SW1911. These are hand crafted laser accurate fine art. Stainless (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/15094) Melonite (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/11750) Review (http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/The+Peak+of+Performance)

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/My%20Toys%20800/IMG_0275a.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/My%20Toys%20800/DSCF0525a.jpg
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/My%20Toys%20800/PC1911NS.jpg

Black Majik
08-17-2009, 1:01 PM
There are so many brands, so many models, and so many options to choose from that everyone is just going to give/recommend the brand/model they own.

Try here www.1911forum.com

Knock yourself out.

The SoCal Gunner
08-17-2009, 1:14 PM
Yep, many to choose from. I hear lots of good things about those S&W Performance Center 1911s as well.

For a price range of $1700, I'd skip the Kimbers and SA production guns. You'd be able to get new Les Baers or used Wilsons at that price.

kamagong
08-17-2009, 1:34 PM
The Supermatch II is a good gun, but very expensive considering what you get. If you want a 1911 with target sights, take a look at the Les Baer Premier II.

Black Majik
08-17-2009, 1:58 PM
The Supermatch II is a good gun, but very expensive considering what you get. If you want a 1911 with target sights, take a look at the Les Baer Premier II.

To the OP, excellent recommendation here. I do know of a PII in Socal brand new for under $1600. That is lower than current online retail prices. :)

OP, better hurry. Our resident 1911 hobbyist just PM'ed me. :D

AdiosKali
08-17-2009, 2:32 PM
For what it is worth, I love my TRP!

xxdabroxx
08-17-2009, 2:58 PM
SA has lifetime warranty. Kimber is 1 year. Both are nice entry level 1911's. I am glad i purchased a springfield though.

jojosdad
08-17-2009, 3:09 PM
Kimber must have changed their policy. I had warranty work done on a used Compact that I had owned for 18 months at the time.

Ducman
08-17-2009, 3:57 PM
To the OP, excellent recommendation here. I do know of a PII in Socal brand new for under $1600. That is lower than current online retail prices. :)

OP, better hurry. Our resident 1911 hobbyist just PM'ed me. :D

Pls. do tell :)

Colt
08-17-2009, 4:04 PM
I have shot the Kimbers and Springfield. I prefer the high end (U.S. made) Springfields for fit and use (from very limited experience), but I don't own either brand.

Good luck!

Black Majik
08-17-2009, 4:52 PM
To the OP, excellent recommendation here. I do know of a PII in Socal brand new for under $1600. That is lower than current online retail prices. :)

OP, better hurry. Our resident 1911 hobbyist just PM'ed me. :D

I stopped by the shop today to verify I wasn't off my rocker. Most seasoned Calgunners will recognize the shop by the tag next to the gun.

I've been following current market price and online vendors are currently selling for $1750, $1850+ for CC and TRSs. B&M shops selling close to 2K or plus.

Here it is, smokin' price.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/RChang824/iowabaer8-17-09004.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d194/RChang824/iowabaer8-17-09010.jpg

Iowa marked LB PII. Pristine barrel, no smilies.

Kruzr
08-17-2009, 5:01 PM
Iowa marked LB PII. Pristine barrel, no smilies.
I hear the Iowa Baers aren't the same quality as the Illinois Baers were. :43:



:D

Black Majik
08-17-2009, 5:02 PM
I hear the Iowa Baers aren't the same quality as the Illinois Baers were. :43:



:D

Hahaha, I heard the same!! :D

B Strong
08-17-2009, 5:04 PM
Hi all, new to the 1911 world. After shooting a Kimber Gold Match last month I wanted to throw my 229 in the trash. Didn't even have to try, the shots ended up tight 2.5" hole at 15yds. Much easier than my 229.

Anyhow, I had my mind set on a Kimber as it is my first one and don't know enough yet as what to order on a custom 1911. I was looking at the Super Match II, then the new Tactical Custom HD II.

Then comes along SA.. More choices!!

I plan on shooting the crap out this one so my price range is 1700 or less. Perhaps my next one will be a Wilson or Nighthawk? First things first, what are your thoughts on these two? Sorry for adding to the multitude of 1911 threads. Any experiences with the two?


http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/tactical/tactical_custom_HD_II/

or

http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=28


Thanks!!!

I'm sorry to say the Kimber is pretty much hit or miss.

Springfield is more consistent in their quality, or for the amount of money you posted ($1,700.00) you should be able to find a used Les Baer TRS or similar.

bin31z
08-17-2009, 8:01 PM
I was never that excited by Kimbers. I've heard a bunch of bad things about them and I hate their firing pin safety system. Its impossible to clean, you basically have to drive out the rear sight to get to it. If you like taking your gun to the bare parts and giving it thorough cleaning, go with springfield.

Army
08-17-2009, 8:56 PM
$1700 will buy you two Springfields.

No 1911 is built any different than another. You do buy a LOT of name with some, but all their expensive parts are interchangeable with the most trashed, combat worn GI issued 1911.

Buy a quality, way less than $1000 1911. If you still want to spend ALL that $1700, use the left-over cash on ammo :)

cactustactical
08-17-2009, 9:24 PM
I love the PT-1911 :)

After the rebate I got her for $505!

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/TBG35/PT1911/GP2.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/TBG35/PT1911/1227.jpg

Oh,

No issues with accuracy either :D

(Yeah, I pulled one :p )

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/TBG35/PT1911/DSC_0047-2.jpg


No real need to spend 1K plus unless you really want to

.

4D5auto
08-17-2009, 9:47 PM
I will take a Kimber over Springer. Kimber has far better machining tolerances and far tighter out of the box than a springer.. Of course Springer has better warranty, but it Will cost you, coming and going! In Commiefornia, it is shipped overnight!

redcliff
08-17-2009, 9:51 PM
Lot of good recommendations here, just wanted to say I've had excellent results with my Kimber Supermatch II as has my friend who has one also.

sholling
08-17-2009, 9:52 PM
$1700 will buy you two Springfields.

No 1911 is built any different than another. You do buy a LOT of name with some, but all their expensive parts are interchangeable with the most trashed, combat worn GI issued 1911.
Incorrect. A factory custom will be hand fitted to closer tolerances. Trust me I own a Stringer Mil-Spec and a S&W Performance Center and it's Chevy vs Ferrari. I'll toss in Kimbers as Fords - I own two.

sholling
08-17-2009, 9:59 PM
I will take a Kimber over Springer. Kimber has far better machining tolerances and far tighter out of the box than a springer.. Of course Springer has better warranty, but it Will cost you, coming and going! In Commiefornia, it is shipped overnight!
Why would it cost you? Shipping for warranty work is paid for by the factory. They just send you a prepaid label and you box it up and drop it at the FedEx depot. Smith is the same way. Also Kimber has tighter tolerances not better tolerances. That's why so many Kimbers have reliability issues out of the box.

Exiledviking
08-17-2009, 10:05 PM
Buy a Les Baer. Above $1200, neither the SA nor the Kimber can compare to the Les Baers.

bin31z
08-17-2009, 10:14 PM
Why would it cost you? Shipping for warranty work is paid for by the factory. They just send you a prepaid label and you box it up and drop it at the FedEx depot. Smith is the same way. Also Kimber has tighter tolerances not better tolerances. That's why so many Kimbers have reliability issues out of the box.

S&W aren't even true 1911's. They have external extractors. Also, which tolerances are you referring to? barrel to slide? frame to slide? Tighter tolerances doesn't always equal accuracy and is detrimental to reliability. Like Bill Wilson says: "we don't fit them tight, we fit them right"

bin31z
08-17-2009, 10:16 PM
Springfield GI's and Mil Specs are what Larry Vickers used to use for his signature series of guns. He made about 12 a year.

sholling
08-17-2009, 11:32 PM
S&W aren't even true 1911's. They have external extractors.
If you say so. :rolleyes:

Also, which tolerances are you referring to? barrel to slide? frame to slide? Tighter tolerances doesn't always equal accuracy and is detrimental to reliability. Like Bill Wilson says: "we don't fit them tight, we fit them right"
Drive your chevy and be happy.

sholling
08-17-2009, 11:36 PM
Springfield GI's and Mil Specs are what Larry Vickers used to use for his signature series of guns. He made about 12 a year.
I remember those days. That made sense only because you could not buy a completed weapon that was the equal. Now you can. No more tightening slides, swapping out barrels and bushings, no more waiting 6 months for a busy smith to finish your pistol. No more putting $1500-2000 (in today's dollars) into an $700 pistol to get a $2000 pistol. My friend your advice would have been first rate 30 years ago but time has moved on.

bin31z
08-18-2009, 12:46 AM
I remember those days. That made sense only because you could not buy a completed weapon that was the equal. Now you can. No more tightening slides, swapping out barrels and bushings, no more waiting 6 months for a busy smith to finish your pistol. No more putting $1500-2000 (in today's dollars) into an $700 pistol to get a $2000 pistol. My friend your advice would have been first rate 30 years ago but time has moved on.

I don't know man. Your S&W is still made at a shop by hand. That's what makes 1911's work, and that hasn't changed for the last 50 years. 1911 pistols are inherently labor intensive. One of the reasons that the military abandoned them was that they need so much labor to fit correctly and maintain. You can't just throw a slide on a frame and call it a day. Your S&W is fitted the same way that any custom maker would fit their gun, there's no new technology involved that makes them tighter fitting. They take an oversized frame and oversize slide and lap them into eachother to get a tight fit. It has nothing to do with the materials or manufacturing process. Trust me, every accurate 1911 needs to have the bushing and barrel fitted to the slide, its just the difference of having it done at a gunsmith or at the factory.

I think its a fact that 1911's need a ton of hand fitting, and I'd rather a well known gunsmith do it than someone at the S&W performance center. Its like the difference between getting a Wilson Combat handgun and getting a handgun built by Bill Wilson himself. I personally don't mind the wait either, in the end you get a personalized gun that is exactly what you wanted and dead reliable and accurate to boot. I'd much rather have that than a gun that anyone can walk into Turner's and pick up.

bin31z
08-18-2009, 12:52 AM
If you say so. :rolleyes:


Drive your chevy and be happy.

Ferraris are overrated. You can drive a Chevy small block for 100,000 and get a new one. Ferraris need $10,000 in maintenance average per year just to keep them on the road and I've never seen one with more than 50,000 miles. Plus, the ZR1 is the 2nd fastest road car at the Nurburgring track. Faster than any Ferrari. Its just a blown 7 liter small block.

It makes no sense to compare guns to cars anyways. So your saying that your S&W (ferrari) is costly to repair, maintenance, and doesn't always go bang when you need it to. And a springer (chevy) is dependable, reliable, cheap to own and run and always goes bang when you need it to.

kamagong
08-18-2009, 7:18 AM
Not all Kimbers and Springfields are made equally. At the lower end of the price scale, they compare quite favorably with each other and one can honestly champion either make.

Once you start comparing the Custom Shops, Springfield absolutely kicks Kimber's a__. The Kimber Raptor, Gold Match, and Supermatch just are not on the same level as the Springfield Custom Carry, Professional, or TGO1.

zman
08-18-2009, 7:41 AM
For around $1k only, you owe it to yourself to check out the Dan Wesson line. One of the 1911 world's berst kept secret. :o =More money for that expensive .45 ammo.

Pointman 7 (5")
http://static.cz-usa.com/czusa/product-images/306/dw09_PM7-40_png_637x200_q85.png

Classic Bobtail (4.25")
http://static.cz-usa.com/czusa/product-images/309/main309_png_637x200_q85.png

sholling
08-18-2009, 8:23 AM
I don't know man. Your S&W is still made at a shop by hand. That's what makes 1911's work, and that hasn't changed for the last 50 years. 1911 pistols are inherently labor intensive. One of the reasons that the military abandoned them was that they need so much labor to fit correctly and maintain. What's changed that's made the off the rack $800 Springfield Armorys and Smiths completely dependable and as accurate as custom pistols from the 80s is CNC machining and advances in quality control methodology. What's left is just assembly, double checking fit and perhaps an occasional adjustment before it's test fired and goes out the door. All with just a tiny percentage of the labor required just 30 years ago. These days you actually can buy a totally reliable $800 off the rack 1911 that will shoot better than 95% of it's owners. Of course you could also buy a tarted up under engineered toy designed by the marketing department of a company allegedly more interested in getting large numbers of spiffy looking pistols out the door than reliability. I'll leave you to decide for yourself who that is. ;)

You can't just throw a slide on a frame and call it a day. Actually with modern automated machining technology you can. I was a toolmaker for 20 years before switching to computers and its amazing what they can do these days. What I tell people is when buying off the rack plan on putting 300-500rds through it to make sure that it's 100% reliable (most will be), and if buying custom plan on putting 300-500rds through it to loosen it up enough to make it totally reliable. ;)

Your S&W is fitted the same way that any custom maker would fit their gun
Yes it is. :D I've reached a point in my life that I wanted one hand fitted work of mechanical art and could afford it. I wouldn't have felt under-armed with my old Springer on my side but it was time for something special.

I personally don't mind the wait either, in the end you get a personalized gun that is exactly what you wanted and dead reliable and accurate to boot. I'd much rather have that than a gun that anyone can walk into Turner's and pick up.
What you're describing here is more of a personal taste choice than a function choice and it's one that I can really respect. My point is that it isn't for everyone. The young'ens getting started can't afford a full custom pistol and most won't shoot as well as a perfectly reliable Springer "loaded". Most won't want to wait 6 months while a name smith does a fluff & buff on an $800 pistol that really didn't need it and charge them $1500 for the privilege and hand them back a pistol without a warranty. In this case the OP had a $1700 budget for a 1st 1911 intended for serious range use. No total custom 1911 fit in that budget but a heavily discounted hand fitted $2400 Performance Center Smith and a discounted $1800 Les Baer Premier II did fall within his budget. Only the OP knows if his shooting will be good enough to appreciate the difference between those factory customs and an off the rack.

4D5auto
08-18-2009, 9:02 AM
Why would it cost you? Shipping for warranty work is paid for by the factory. They just send you a prepaid label and you box it up and drop it at the FedEx depot. Smith is the same way. Also Kimber has tighter tolerances not better tolerances. That's why so many Kimbers have reliability issues out of the box.

Has to be shipped by a dealer.

Never had any issues with any Kimber out of any box! Kimber is the only production weapon I've experienced that has the least slop in slide to frame and barrel. Production, being the key word here. Not bad for a mass produced gun..

Colt on the other hand, are pure crap! JMO. You're paying for the engraving on the slide:rolleyes:

I've got a Smith Pro Series, trigger feels like it has sand in it!!

Anyway, these are all opinions in all posts, enjoy the sport/hobby regardless of what ya got.

Side note:

These "Custom" shops don't spend as much time tuning these things as you may think, these are still a high production assembly. Only a reputable Indy Smith will dial it in for you, how you want it. The pic in my Avatar is a Gold Match Kimber frame, hard chrome, that is the only thing Kimber on the weapon! I will put that up against any known make out there and guarantee it will give them all a run!

xxdabroxx
08-18-2009, 10:13 AM
Has to be shipped by a dealer.

lies, you CAN drop it off. I believe it does have to be overnight though, could be fud. Either way, they send you and overnight label, and YOU drop it off at fedex/ ups whatever. I have done it, and it gets dropped back of to you, w/ signature.

sholling
08-18-2009, 10:25 AM
Has to be shipped by a dealer.You do not have to go through a dealer to return a pistol to the factory for repairs. You can't use the post office and instead have to use FedEx or UPS 1-day service but Springfield and Smith both pay shipping both ways on warranty repairs.

Never had any issues with any Kimber out of any box! Kimber is the only production weapon I've experienced that has the least slop in slide to frame and barrel. Production, being the key word here. Not bad for a mass produced gun.I own two Kimbers and if anything they are overly tight for a non-fitted handgun. I spent much of last night cycling the slide by hand on my newest to get it loosened up enough to cycle freely. Of course I knew I'd have to but they have the only alloy framed CCO on the list so I had no other choice. It was Kimber or nothing.

I've got a Smith Pro Series, trigger feels like it has sand in it!!Then why haven't you sent it in for repair? Everyone else compliments their triggers? Is there a reason that you haven't sent it in?

These "Custom" shops don't spend as much time tuning these things as you may think, these are still a high production assembly.This is true for Kimber. But others like S&W's Performance Center and Les Baer actually fit the components just like a good custom smith, except that they start with a slide and frame that are oversize and need to be lapped and fitted rather than squeezed down to get a good fit.

Frankly there are too few facts and too much BS in your post for me to take it seriously.

Exposed
08-18-2009, 10:37 AM
I love my Kimber CDP II pro.

But this is my NEXT 1911, so I vote on this for you.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=34

4D5auto
08-18-2009, 1:25 PM
You do not have to go through a dealer to return a pistol to the factory for repairs. You can't use the post office and instead have to use FedEx or UPS 1-day service but Springfield and Smith both pay shipping both ways on warranty repairs.

I own two Kimbers and if anything they are overly tight for a non-fitted handgun. I spent much of last night cycling the slide by hand on my newest to get it loosened up enough to cycle freely. Of course I knew I'd have to but they have the only alloy framed CCO on the list so I had no other choice. It was Kimber or nothing.

Then why haven't you sent it in for repair? Everyone else compliments their triggers? Is there a reason that you haven't sent it in?

This is true for Kimber. But others like S&W's Performance Center and Les Baer actually fit the components just like a good custom smith, except that they start with a slide and frame that are oversize and need to be lapped and fitted rather than squeezed down to get a good fit.

Frankly there are too few facts and too much BS in your post for me to take it seriously.


I'm glad I amuse you, but it's obvious you've NEVER owned a true custom built gun before.

You can not compare a Les Baer to a Custom Shop Smith as far as I am concerned.. Not much is done in the so called Smith custom Shop, other than adding a better machined bushing and taking off a few rough edges with some emery paper to make it look like work has been done. It's still loose as compared to a true custom build by a Smith that works independant, NOT for a company that mass produces and has someone on an hourly wage.. They just will not spend the time it truly takes to dial it in. Will it work? Yes, just fine, but most who shoot aren't going to spend the $$ it takes to really build it right and tight!.


""I own two Kimbers and if anything they are overly tight for a non-fitted handgun. I spent much of last night cycling the slide by hand on my newest to get it loosened up enough to cycle freely.""

I chuckle at this:) I've never heard anyone complain about an overly tight gun out of the box. I think you may be over exaggerating a bit on your description of what is tight. You would probably think my custom is ridiculous as compared to your stocker. Why would you waste the time cycling, when firing it will continue to lap the slide to frame? Must be a falic thing:eek:


I'm not here to get in a pissing match with you, you're intitled to your opinion. We can agree to disagree..

sholling
08-18-2009, 1:33 PM
I'm glad I amuse you, but it's obvious you've NEVER owned a true custom built gun before
It's obvious from the multiple BSs you've been caught in that you haven't got a clue beyond what you read in the marketing materials and gun rags. It may impress the kids on the internet but it doesn't impress adults that have been shooting for 50 years. Anyway I have no more time to waste on you. Good day.

bin31z
08-18-2009, 1:50 PM
I agree with sholling about the overly tight guns. Overly tight gun show a lack of craftsmanship. They fitted a slightly over size slide on a frame. A custom smith takes the time to lap the slide into a frame with lapping compound and that makes for a tight but super smooth action, easy to rack by hand but with no perceptible play. Looks likes your smiths have got some learning to do 4d5auto.

You mentioned shooting the gun to lap in the frame and slide. That is not the proper way to fit a slide to frame. It was already supposed to be lapped at the shop. They are supposed to lap until the slide can move freely and smoothly on its own with any binding. About 0.001 clearance. When you "lap" your slide into your frame by firing, the wear is not always even and your end result will not be smooth because without the lapping compound, the steel is making larger gouges than the lapping compound, considering most smith finish with 800 grit lapping compound..very smooth stuff.

bin31z
08-18-2009, 2:15 PM
Has to be shipped by a dealer.

Never had any issues with any Kimber out of any box! Kimber is the only production weapon I've experienced that has the least slop in slide to frame and barrel. Production, being the key word here. Not bad for a mass produced gun..

Colt on the other hand, are pure crap! JMO. You're paying for the engraving on the slide:rolleyes:

I've got a Smith Pro Series, trigger feels like it has sand in it!!

Anyway, these are all opinions in all posts, enjoy the sport/hobby regardless of what ya got.

Side note:

These "Custom" shops don't spend as much time tuning these things as you may think, these are still a high production assembly. Only a reputable Indy Smith will dial it in for you, how you want it. The pic in my Avatar is a Gold Match Kimber frame, hard chrome, that is the only thing Kimber on the weapon! I will put that up against any known make out there and guarantee it will give them all a run!


wtf is a indy smith anyways? is that like a fly by night operation that claims his work is better than any of of the other "well know" gunsmiths?

bin31z
08-18-2009, 2:17 PM
I'm glad I amuse you, but it's obvious you've NEVER owned a true custom built gun before.

You can not compare a Les Baer to a Custom Shop Smith as far as I am concerned.. Not much is done in the so called Smith custom Shop, other than adding a better machined bushing and taking off a few rough edges with some emery paper to make it look like work has been done. It's still loose as compared to a true custom build by a Smith that works independant, NOT for a company that mass produces and has someone on an hourly wage.. They just will not spend the time it truly takes to dial it in. Will it work? Yes, just fine, but most who shoot aren't going to spend the $$ it takes to really build it right and tight!.


""I own two Kimbers and if anything they are overly tight for a non-fitted handgun. I spent much of last night cycling the slide by hand on my newest to get it loosened up enough to cycle freely.""

I chuckle at this:) I've never heard anyone complain about an overly tight gun out of the box. I think you may be over exaggerating a bit on your description of what is tight. You would probably think my custom is ridiculous as compared to your stocker. Why would you waste the time cycling, when firing it will continue to lap the slide to frame? Must be a falic thing:eek:


I'm not here to get in a pissing match with you, you're intitled to your opinion. We can agree to disagree..

BTW, the quote is "we don't build them tight, we build them right" - Bill Wilson not "we build them tight and right" HAHA

4D5auto
08-18-2009, 2:38 PM
It's obvious from the multiple BSs you've been caught in that you haven't got a clue beyond what you read in the marketing materials and gun rags. It may impress the kids on the internet but it doesn't impress adults that have been shooting for 50 years. Anyway I have no more time to waste on you. Good day.

What the hell you talking bout Willis?:rolleyes: Multiple what? Your imagination?? Your post shows your young age and lack of real world knowledge and experience. Your frame to slide will continue to lap itself for quit some time during it's use and then loosen up with age and get sloppy in time. This is called wear my friend. This is where groups will open up with age, wear!

If you thought that Kimber of yours was so tight it wouldn't cycle properly before shooting, you should have sent it back to avoid a Liability. They would have sent it back telling you there is nothing wrong with it!

I'm over 50 and have likely been shooting longer than you've been alive.. Again, you've never owned a Custom built gun and really don't know what you speak of. I will chalk this up to your youth and Testosterone! I also wonder if you would know a Custom if it were in your hands. Guns And Ammo must be your Bible..
I don't care how much you spend to build a gun or brag where you got it or what's in it or who built it or what brand, if you don't know how to shoot it, you'd probably call it a POS! Don't be a Chump

Like I said, I'm not here to get in a pi$$ing match, your allowed to have your opinion, that's why people like me who served, have given you the right to put your foot in your mouth whenever you want!:)

Have a good day my son!

4D5auto
08-18-2009, 2:41 PM
wtf is a indy smith anyways? is that like a fly by night operation that claims his work is better than any of of the other "well know" gunsmiths?

Batman

this is an Independant Gun Smith. A real self employed person who works on and builds weapons.. Gun Smith.

bin31z
08-18-2009, 3:02 PM
What the hell you talking bout Willis?:rolleyes: Multiple what? Your imagination?? Your post shows your young age and lack of real world knowledge and experience. Your frame to slide will continue to lap itself for quit some time during it's use and then loosen up with age and get sloppy in time. This is called wear my friend. This is where groups will open up with age, wear!

If you thought that Kimber of yours was so tight it wouldn't cycle properly before shooting, you should have sent it back to avoid a Liability. They would have sent it back telling you there is nothing wrong with it!

I'm over 50 and have likely been shooting longer than you've been alive.. Again, you've never owned a Custom built gun and really don't know what you speak of. I will chalk this up to your youth and Testosterone! I also wonder if you would know a Custom if it were in your hands. Guns And Ammo must be your Bible..
I don't care how much you spend to build a gun or brag where you got it or what's in it or who built it or what brand, if you don't know how to shoot it, you'd probably call it a POS! Don't be a Chump

Like I said, I'm not here to get in a pi$$ing match, your allowed to have your opinion, that's why people like me who served, have given you the right to put your foot in your mouth whenever you want!:)

Have a good day my son!

I've spoken to many "independent" gunsmiths and none of them fit a slide too tight to hand cycle easily. They ALWAYS lap until the slide can move freely on the frame without binding.

The only guns that I've handled that were too tight to hand cycle easily are Sig Arms 1911's and Kimbers. Just go handle an Ed Brown or Wilson Combat gun. They hand cycle like its on ball bearings.

And speaking of "break in". A good gunsmith's gun will not fit his gun together to need a break in period. Check out Larry Vickers' class on fitting barrels and slides. There's a right way that'll shoot tight even after thousands of rounds and there's a wrong and fast way that'll loosen up with time. The way Vickers teaches is the hand fitting method:

"I have yet to see a barrel fit technique that is better than the so-called 'hard fit' by John Miller. It's the good, old-fashioned AMU barrel fit. It's done one at a time and it's done in a method that's not very fast. It's a slow, tedious method, but it's been proven to give a long-lasting, durable fit," Vickers said.

There are several benefits of the Miller barrel fitting method. First, there is no break-in required; the gun runs perfectly right from the get-go. Second, the barrel and slide stay together longer. There is no deterioration in the barrel-to-slide fit, so the gun's accuracy remains consistent throughout the life of the gun. "It's not uncommon to have a gun still shoot so well that you won't even realize the bore is worn out until you chrono it. Then it's like, 'I need a new barrel,"' Vickers explained.

bin31z
08-18-2009, 3:05 PM
And all Larry shoots is military hardball. It takes a LOT of rounds to wear out a barrel shooting 230 grain hardball moving as slowly as it does.

IPSICK
08-18-2009, 3:45 PM
Yep, many to choose from. I hear lots of good things about those S&W Performance Center 1911s as well.

For a price range of $1700, I'd skip the Kimbers and SA production guns. You'd be able to get new Les Baers or used Wilsons at that price.

Go with the Les Baer. I have a Springfield TRP Op with full length dustcover and I wish I had gotten a Les Baer instead FWIW. The price range you specified will get you a Les Baer. If you decide to customize it later I think the Les Baer frames and slides are a good starting point (although I believe a lot of custom smiths prefer to start out with a Colt Series 70). Also Les Baer comes with an accuracy guarantee that I don't think Kimber, SA, and S&W has.

Exiledviking
08-18-2009, 9:43 PM
S&W aren't even true 1911's. They have external extractors.

Does this mean that any 1911 fitted with a series 80 firing pin safety is NOT a real 1911 as well?

bin31z
08-18-2009, 10:44 PM
Does this mean that any 1911 fitted with a series 80 firing pin safety NOT a real 1911 as well?

How did you know? When you refer a 1911 pistol, you are referring to John Browning's original design used by the US armed forces. Model 1911 and 1911a1. Neither of those had external extractors or additional firing pin safeties. That's just the facts. You can say its a 1911 style gun, but not a 1911. I don't consider kimbers, s&w, or series 80's to be true 1911's. That's just me.

Black Majik
08-18-2009, 11:11 PM
How did you know? When you refer a 1911 pistol, you are referring to John Browning's original design used by the US armed forces. Model 1911 and 1911a1. Neither of those had external extractors or additional firing pin safeties. That's just the facts. You can say its a 1911 style gun, but not a 1911. I don't consider kimbers, s&w, or series 80's to be true 1911's. That's just me.

None had FLGRs, Novak sights, 3-hole triggers, extended thumb safeties, extended magwells, frontstrap checkering, beavertail grip safeties and undercut triggerguards as well.

Nothing made today follows a true 1911 specification.

bin31z
08-18-2009, 11:51 PM
None had FLGRs, Novak sights, 3-hole triggers, extended thumb safeties, extended magwells, frontstrap checkering, beavertail grip safeties and undercut triggerguards as well.

Nothing made today follows a true 1911 specification.

I feel like the mods that you mentioned are just updates on the design. Like novak sights are just more visible sights, i don't think 1911's should like flgr, extended thumb safety is just an extended thumb safety etc etc. However, if you add an external extractor, the fundamental function and tuning of the gun changes. Same with firing pin safeties. The fundamental function and disassembly procedures change. What I mean is, you can pick up a Springfield pro give it to an armorer from WWI and they could take the whole thing apart and put it back together and diagnose any problems. You can't say the same about Kimbers. If something goes wrong with the firing pin safety, your outta luck.

aplinker
08-19-2009, 12:08 AM
I feel like the mods that you mentioned are just updates on the design. Like novak sights are just more visible sights, i don't think 1911's should like flgr, extended thumb safety is just an extended thumb safety etc etc. However, if you add an external extractor, the fundamental function and tuning of the gun changes. Same with firing pin safeties. The fundamental function and disassembly procedures change. What I mean is, you can pick up a Springfield pro give it to an armorer from WWI and they could take the whole thing apart and put it back together and diagnose any problems. You can't say the same about Kimbers. If something goes wrong with the firing pin safety, your outta luck.

this might win as one of the weirdest posts I've seen in a while.

So, because a WWI armorer couldn't fix it, it's wrong?

Should I abandon fuel injection & disc brakes on my car since a mechanic from 1920 can't fix those, too?

There's a difference between "sacrilege" and "impaired function." They don't always go hand-in-hand.

bin31z
08-19-2009, 12:27 AM
this might win as one of the weirdest posts I've seen in a while.

So, because a WWI armorer couldn't fix it, it's wrong?

Should I abandon fuel injection & disc brakes on my car since a mechanic from 1920 can't fix those, too?

There's a difference between "sacrilege" and "impaired function." They don't always go hand-in-hand.

I'm basically saying that if something goes wrong with your Kimber Swartz type firing pin safety, your out of luck. Your gonna have to send it back to the factory. No standard gunsmithing manual for the 1911 covers swartz type safety, nor do they cover external extractor. They might have something about series 80 safety.

bin31z
08-19-2009, 12:28 AM
Plus, if you didn't know about the swartz safety and start try to take off the slide...oops you just sheared your firing pin safety..back to the factory it goes.

4D5auto
08-19-2009, 8:21 AM
Batman, you're splitting hairs and contradicting yourself.

What happened to your buddy sholling? Tucked his tail in and ran home??

bruceflinch
08-19-2009, 7:16 PM
I love the PT-1911 :)

After the rebate I got her for $505!

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/TBG35/PT1911/GP2.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/TBG35/PT1911/1227.jpg



http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee117/TBG35/PT1911/DSC_0047-2.jpg


No real need to spend 1K plus unless you really want to

.

Was that a "Cash for Clunkers" deal? :)

jojosdad
08-20-2009, 6:08 AM
Plus, if you didn't know about the swartz safety and start try to take off the slide...oops you just sheared your firing pin safety..back to the factory it goes.
Um - no you don't. Taken my Compact CDP apart more times than I can remember and never took any particular care about the safety and nothing has broken.
Am I doing something wrong?

sholling
08-20-2009, 6:25 AM
Batman, you're splitting hairs and contradicting yourself.

What happened to your buddy sholling? Tucked his tail in and ran home??
I thought we had agreed to agree that you're a troll and were done. Do we need to go over that well worn territory again?

sholling
08-20-2009, 6:30 AM
Um - no you don't. Taken my Compact CDP apart more times than I can remember and never took any particular care about the safety and nothing has broken.
Am I doing something wrong?
You're doing something right by not holding down the grip safety when you remove the slide.

sholling
08-20-2009, 6:33 AM
I'm basically saying that if something goes wrong with your Kimber Swartz type firing pin safety, your out of luck. Your gonna have to send it back to the factory. No standard gunsmithing manual for the 1911 covers swartz type safety, nor do they cover external extractor. They might have something about series 80 safety.I agree on the Kimber flavor of the Swartz safety having to go back to the factory for repairs but to me that's a non issue unless I was carrying it off to war.

Part of the reason S&W went with the external extractor is that they don't require tuning to function properly. I haven't replaced one but the idea was to make a drop in extractor.

eric90503
08-20-2009, 10:12 AM
Just wanted to say thank you to all of you for your input. Going to go to a couple of ranges today, LAX and Sharpshooter to try out a few. SA TRP at LAX, Kimbers and a Nighthawk Custom at Sharpshooter.

Man more and more choices keep introducing themselves. :helpsmilie:
Q: If Nighthawk Engineers came from Wilson, would it be safe to say you are
getting the same or better quality for a more "affordable" cost?

SCMA-1
08-20-2009, 10:18 AM
Just wanted to say thank you to all of you for your input. Going to go to a couple of ranges today, LAX and Sharpshooter to try out a few. SA TRP at LAX, Kimbers and a Nighthawk Custom at Sharpshooter.

Man more and more choices keep introducing themselves. :helpsmilie:
Q: If Nighthawk Engineers came from Wilson, would it be safe to say you are
getting the same or better quality for a more "affordable" cost?

Insight Range has a good selection; call the and see which 1911's for rent they have:

http://insightrangeinc.com/shoot.html

TurboS600
08-20-2009, 11:18 AM
I like them both. The customer service at Springfield is the best in the business, though. Lifetime warranty, they pay shipping both ways... VERY few reported problems though so pretty rare to have to use the warranty process. Don't rule out the Kimbers, though. They are in your price range and a very accurate, too, not to mention puuuuuurty. :)

:cheers2:

4D5auto
08-20-2009, 12:26 PM
I thought we had agreed to agree that you're a troll and were done. Do we need to go over that well worn territory again?


LOL, I knew you couldn't stay away!:) It's always the one with LDS who feels the need to flex.. We agreed to disagree, but you have difficulties understanding the English language, so maybe that really makes you the Smurf:eek: Ahhh, to be young again.. Do me a favor and put me on your ignore list!! Problem solved.. Keep it civil and mature. Do you know what that means?? Remember to do what you say when you say it! Must be tough being you.

Oh, you still never owned a true Custom built!

sholling
08-20-2009, 3:45 PM
LOL, I knew you couldn't stay away!:) It's always the one with LDS who feels the need to flex.. We agreed to disagree, but you have difficulties understanding the English language, so maybe that really makes you the Smurf:eek: Ahhh, to be young again.. Do me a favor and put me on your ignore list!! Problem solved.. Keep it civil and mature. Do you know what that means?? Remember to do what you say when you say it! Must be tough being you.

Oh, you still never owned a true Custom built!You brought me back into the conversation troll.

freonr22
08-20-2009, 4:01 PM
my .02 and I know nothing. its the shooter not the Gun. I have a old amt longslide hardballer I would have any of you (read better shooter than me) try against your beautiful trophy ferraris, and its only about $600.. I know it doesnt have anything to do with the op's original post, but jeez, you guys are funny. I would LOVE to have a gun I could say I spent that much $ on, but, ive tried the kimber (NICE gun) Colt delta elite gold cup whatever (NICE Gun) springfield (NICE) series 70 (had one) But each person must have their own beat.

4D5auto
08-20-2009, 10:15 PM
You brought me back into the conversation troll.

You brought yourself back, by choice! Grow up little one. You said you were done, now leave. You have access to your ignore list, I suggest you use it.

sholling
08-20-2009, 10:17 PM
You brought yourself back, by choice! Grow up little one. You said you were done, now leave. You have access to your ignore list, I suggest you use it.
Feel free to add me to your ignore list troll.

Trendkill
08-20-2009, 10:37 PM
You brought yourself back, by choice! Grow up little one. You said you were done, now leave. You have access to your ignore list, I suggest you use it.

D*^k

bin31z
08-21-2009, 9:07 AM
You brought yourself back, by choice! Grow up little one. You said you were done, now leave. You have access to your ignore list, I suggest you use it.

Man...you are persistent. I'd like to know who builds your "customs", I want to have a chat with how he likes to build them "tight and right" HA HA HA. I've never heard such a ridiculous thing said about the 1911 pistol. Tight and right, call up Jim Hoag and ask him about "tight and right" his number is 818-998-1510. He used to work at King's 30 years ago and has bad his own shop since. Used to work with and shoot with Armand Swenson, Richard Heinie. Number 7 on the American Handgunner's top 10 gunsmiths. Its a commonly know fact that a gun that's too tight leads to a tiny increase in accuracy and a huge decrease in reliability. Its all about the barrel fitting and your trigger control that leads to accurate handgun shooting.

bin31z
08-21-2009, 9:14 AM
O i forgot, he also shot with Frank Pachmayr.

bin31z
08-21-2009, 9:17 AM
Yep, gotta hold the grip safety when taking the slide off a Kimber or else! Seriously, I hate that swartz safety, Colt decided it was too cumbersome to use in the 70's. Why would Kimber revive it. Just use a freaking TI firing pin and heavy duty firing pin spin!! Its pretty freaking easy.

Black Majik
08-21-2009, 9:29 AM
Yep, gotta hold the grip safety when taking the slide off a Kimber or else! Seriously, I hate that swartz safety, Colt decided it was too cumbersome to use in the 70's. Why would Kimber revive it. Just use a freaking TI firing pin and heavy duty firing pin spin!! Its pretty freaking easy.

Just to clarify a few points.

You gotta make sure not to depress the grip safety when taking off the slide on a Kimber w/ Swartz safety. Depressing it activates the pushrod to depress the plunger in the slide.

Also, Kimber didn't revive it from Colt. Colt uses a Series 80 firing pin safety, activated by the trigger to activate two levers in the frame, Kimber's Swartz safety is activated via the grip safety to activate the pushrod next to the disconnector in the frame.

sholling
08-21-2009, 9:48 AM
Yep, gotta hold the grip safety when taking the slide off a Kimber or else! Seriously, I hate that swartz safety, Colt decided it was too cumbersome to use in the 70's. Why would Kimber revive it. Just use a freaking TI firing pin and heavy duty firing pin spin!! Its pretty freaking easy.Gotta not hold down the grip safety and have to hold the pistol level during disassembly. Otherwise the pin will be up and be ruined.

Honestly I don't mind the S&W variation and it allows them to pass the mandatory drop test while keeping the trigger light. Yes you can modify the SA to lower the trigger pull weight but like removing the Swartz safety you're disabling a safety feature. Having examined the Swartz variation in my new Kimber I'm not impressed. I can live with it but I'd much rather have a Smith (if they made a CCO, and if it were available in CA) because they did it right. Then again I don't mind a heavier (~5.5lbs for SA vs ~4.5 for Kimber or S&W) trigger on a self defense pistol. I save the lighter triggers for my target pistols.

sholling
08-21-2009, 9:53 AM
Also, Kimber didn't revive it from Colt. Colt uses a Series 80 firing pin safety, activated by the trigger to activate two levers in the frame, Kimber's Swartz safety is activated via the grip safety to activate the pushrod next to the disconnector in the frame.
He's referring to Colt's 1930s Swartz design. Colt gave up back then because in those days it was impossible to mass produce the components to a close enough tolerances to make it work reliably. Stacking tolerances could be a bear back then. These days mass production to tight tolerances is child's play.

hawk1547
08-21-2009, 9:59 AM
Go with the Les Baer. I have a Springfield TRP Op with full length dustcover and I wish I had gotten a Les Baer instead FWIW. The price range you specified will get you a Les Baer. If you decide to customize it later I think the Les Baer frames and slides are a good starting point (although I believe a lot of custom smiths prefer to start out with a Colt Series 70). Also Les Baer comes with an accuracy guarantee that I don't think Kimber, SA, and S&W has.

+1... Another proud and happy owner of one of the best custom 1911 firearm on the market,when you purchase a Les Baer firearm,you're not buying "just another gun" Go with Les Baer and never look back.

Black Majik
08-21-2009, 10:00 AM
He's referring to Colt's 1930s Swartz design. Colt gave up back then because in those days it was impossible to mass produce the components to a close enough tolerances to make it work reliably. Stacking tolerances could be a bear back then. These days mass production to tight tolerances is child's play.

Thanks for the clarification, I misread that.

bin31z
08-21-2009, 11:04 AM
Honestly, I've never taken apart a kimber. I just read that in their manual, forgot if its hold the grip safety or pull the trigger or something. The swartz was originally considered by Colt by never used. Anyways, the thing is a freaking pain either way, like I said, you have to drift the rear sight out. I just don't want it in my gun. I've never even considered buying a Kimber for that reason. Why when you can buy a Springfield for the same price.

sholling
08-21-2009, 11:29 AM
Honestly, I've never taken apart a kimber. I just read that in their manual, forgot if its hold the grip safety or pull the trigger or something. The swartz was originally considered by Colt by never used. Anyways, the thing is a freaking pain either way, like I said, you have to drift the rear sight out. I just don't want it in my gun. I've never even considered buying a Kimber for that reason. Why when you can buy a Springfield for the same price.
Personally I wouldn't even consider a full sized Kimber Series II and only bought my Compact because it's the only game in town. But comparing a Springer and a Smith is a whole different world. I love my Springer but on average the made is the USA S&W comes with a much better trigger, better fit and finish, and better out of the box accuracy. And it's made in the USA. You really have to put a bit of money into an imported and assembled in the USA Springer to reach the same level of refinement as an out of the box Smith. That said the SA is a better base for a project and I'm agnostic between the two for a self defense pistol - that would be a tough choice. For out of the box target shooting I'll take the S&W hands down. I'm talking the sub $1k production units and not either company's factory customs.

squatting_caveboy
08-21-2009, 9:28 PM
SA TRP.....wowza sweet and you can find one used for about $1k

bin31z
08-22-2009, 12:16 AM
I really wanted the scandium frame 1911 gunsite edition pistol. Its a gorgeous little gun in my opinion. I just got thrown by the FPS and external extractor.

sholling
08-22-2009, 5:14 AM
I really like the Gunsite Edition. This is the one I wish we had access to. It's Smith's version of the CCO. It looks to me like the CCO format is making a comeback. :D

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=11101&langId=-1&productId=86955&tabselected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=15709

http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/108310_large.jpg

bin31z
08-22-2009, 3:21 PM
aesthetically, the CCO looks odd to me. I like the opposite, short slide long handle. I think S&W has a series 70 style gun now, cause I see one with a Ti firing pin. Anyways, that gunsite pistol is freaking sweet. The crow is in the wrong place thought, it should beat the rear of the slide.

I dont know, just the whole idea of a S&W 1911 just seems so odd to me.