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dascoyne
08-17-2009, 8:35 AM
How many of y'all have had an AD? Think of this as a support group for those of us who have felt boneheaded enough to have had an AD. Let's hear your AD story.

It happened to me twice:

In the late 80s I had a bad trigger job done on my BHP by a lousy "gunsmith" who didn't know his limitations. Back at home I released the slide with a loaded magazine and the hammer went forward with the slide. Luckily I observe the rules of safe gun handling and the round went into my hardwood floor.

The second time also in the late 80s I was a bonehead. Technically it's not my AD but I'm responsible. I handed my loaded BHP to my "gun-naive" older brother without giving him a basic safety course. Of course he assumed it was unloaded and ran the slide without a chamber check. He then took aim down the hall at my Casablanca poster and promptly put a round through it. On the other side of the wall the FMJ Gecko grazed my fridge and went through the edge of my kitchen window. Sadly my brother never picked up a gun again and is actually a supporter of "gun control." I still can't talk any sense into him. Blame me for putting another "gun control" advocate on the streets.

drawn
08-17-2009, 9:03 AM
In my opinion there is no such thing as an AD. ND (negligent)Yes but AD no. It's all about responsibility of action.

dascoyne
08-17-2009, 9:05 AM
In my opinion there is no such thing as an AD. ND (negligent)Yes but AD no. It's all about responsibility of action.A discharge due to a weapon malfunction (e.g. a bad trigger job) is hardly "Negligent."
ADs and NDs are different.

rp55
08-17-2009, 10:08 AM
In my opinion there is no such thing as an AD. ND (negligent)Yes but AD no. It's all about responsibility of action.

+1
And yes I have had a negligent discharge. Thirty years ago I learned a valuable lesson with no damage done. The safety rules work if you follow them diligently. I was in the woods and the "unloaded" gun discharged.

snobord99
08-17-2009, 10:10 AM
A discharge due to a weapon malfunction (e.g. a bad trigger job) is hardly "Negligent."
ADs and NDs are different.

While that's true, I think the argument would be that the negligence wasn't from the discharge due to a weapon malfunction. It would be due to your putting a loaded magazine in it and then releasing the slide while at home.

Gator Monroe
08-17-2009, 10:24 AM
Fired some rounds outta my WASR 22 at Iron Mountain BLM shooting area had a FTE isssue and thought it was empty , but not sure, walked back to Grand Cherokee to inspect weapon but as I usuialy do pointed WASR 22 STRAIGHT UP INTO AIR & pulled trigger "pop" it went off ,but other larger & louder weapons were shooting on line so no one noticed my stupidity, does that count ?

pwall
08-17-2009, 10:29 AM
grandpa, 92, tells a story of a time when he pulled his .25 Bernardelli out of his drawer, grandma tells him put it away because "it may be loaded". After pointing it at her jokingly, he says "its not loaded. See?" BANG! Luckily it put a hole in the wall instead of grandma!

Neverfox
08-17-2009, 10:30 AM
While that's true, I think the argument would be that the negligence wasn't from the discharge due to a weapon malfunction. It would be due to your putting a loaded magazine in it and then releasing the slide while at home.

I'm a bit confused by this comment. Are you saying that it's negligent to have a loaded gun in the house? What's the point of an unloaded gun if that gun is for self-defense? Also, if you simply mean it was negligent to load a gun in the house if the weapon was likely to malfunction, I'm not sure there are many cases were someone knows that a weapon is ready to malfunction before it actually does. I apologize if I'm simply misunderstanding you.

Black Majik
08-17-2009, 10:33 AM
AD: Never
ND: Never
ADD: All the time! :)

aplinker
08-17-2009, 10:34 AM
While that's true, I think the argument would be that the negligence wasn't from the discharge due to a weapon malfunction. It would be due to your putting a loaded magazine in it and then releasing the slide while at home.

So how, exactly, do you load your carry arm, if not at home?

I believe there are both NDs and ADs, but most people too liberally use the term AD.

Negligence is improper action beyond what another reasonable person would do.



My only thing close to either is a slamfire.

epic4444
08-17-2009, 10:49 AM
ive never had one...but im sure there have been many out there both accidental and just plain stupid...to me theres a difference from being foolish with a gun and having a accidental discharge...i go to target masters and im sure ill see a few there in my years of shooting there

Flintlock Tom
08-17-2009, 10:50 AM
Many years ago I was pulling the hammer back on a broom-handle mauser (C96) with a loaded chamber. The hammer slipped and discharged down-range.
I cannot imagine, nor remember, why I had the hammer down on a loaded chamber with a semi-auto.
The bolt recoiling back nearly took my thumb off.

dascoyne
08-17-2009, 11:02 AM
So how, exactly, do you load your carry arm, if not at home?

I believe there are both NDs and ADs, but most people too liberally use the term AD.

Negligence is improper action beyond what another reasonable person would do.



My only thing close to either is a slamfire.You beat me to the response. Thanks for saying it for me.

Back then I had my BHP for home defense and was loading it.

Fortunately I haven't had an incident since the 80s.

Nowadays I have a Glock 21SF by my bed and a Remington 870 nearby.

Lancear15
08-17-2009, 11:18 AM
This poll has been done before. :) But I'll forgive you OP since your new.

But this does seem like a good poll for an anti to set up for some trolling.

jdberger
08-17-2009, 11:30 AM
ND

Finished shooting at some targets at an informal range. Was sure that the mag was empty. Started the short walk back to the truck to case the pistol and noticed the hammer was still back. Pointed the pistol downrange and pulled the trigger.

Apparently the slide locked open with a round still in the magazine. I closed the slide thinking it was empty.

No one was hurt. Just a little suprised. I was redfaced. Especially because I was giving another buddy a ration due to him shooting his truck the previous weekend (another ND).

Sometimes learnin's painful.

Lessons learned.

Guns are always loaded. Even when you are SURE that they are empty.
ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
KEEP your booger picker off of the bang switch.

stix213
08-17-2009, 12:03 PM
I'm a bit confused by this comment. Are you saying that it's negligent to have a loaded gun in the house? What's the point of an unloaded gun if that gun is for self-defense? Also, if you simply mean it was negligent to load a gun in the house if the weapon was likely to malfunction, I'm not sure there are many cases were someone knows that a weapon is ready to malfunction before it actually does. I apologize if I'm simply misunderstanding you.

My opinion is if you have just had some gun work done that you shouldn't even load the firearm until you are out at a safe place to shoot it, incase something wasn't done correctly (just like what happened here). Then once you have verified good operation of the firearm, load up at home.

my $0.02

snobord99
08-17-2009, 12:32 PM
I'm a bit confused by this comment. Are you saying that it's negligent to have a loaded gun in the house? What's the point of an unloaded gun if that gun is for self-defense? Also, if you simply mean it was negligent to load a gun in the house if the weapon was likely to malfunction, I'm not sure there are many cases were someone knows that a weapon is ready to malfunction before it actually does. I apologize if I'm simply misunderstanding you.

^^^ sort of my point.

No, I didn't say it was negligent to have a loaded gun in the house. What I said was the argument (not saying that I actually believe this myself) would be that having the gun loaded and locked (loaded magazine, slide released, chamber loaded and hammer cocked) may be a negligent act if it's done with no intent to fire it. The situation's obviously different if it's for self defense and you intend to fire it. Here it sounds like it was just loaded and locked at home with no real reason as to why there needed to be one in the chamber with the hammer cocked. Distinguish that from having a loaded firearm sitting at home with a loaded magazine in it ready to go but not having one sitting in the chamber with the hammer already cocked.

Again, the argument might be that there's where the negligence lies. I'm not saying I actually believe this to be the case.

snobord99
08-17-2009, 12:37 PM
So how, exactly, do you load your carry arm, if not at home?

I believe there are both NDs and ADs, but most people too liberally use the term AD.

Negligence is improper action beyond what another reasonable person would do.



My only thing close to either is a slamfire.

Difference is between having a loaded magazine in the gun when you have a reason for it to be there (carry arm and going out) vs. having a loaded magazine, chamber and cocked hammer when you don't have a real reason for magazine and chamber loaded with the hammer cocked. Loading a firearm at home so you can carry = proper. Loading a firearm at home to show off to your friends = improper.

JBird33
08-17-2009, 12:40 PM
Had myself a ND once. Thankfully was obeying most of the gun rules while stupidly ignoring a couple others that led to the ND. Nobody was hurt, and a very big lesson learned.

AaronHorrocks
08-17-2009, 12:48 PM
In my opinion there is no such thing as an AD. ND (negligent)Yes but AD no. It's all about responsibility of action.

So when my SKS fired, but the safety was on and my finger was off the trigger, what exactly do you call that, then?

HUTCH 7.62
08-17-2009, 12:54 PM
Never had an AD yet in almost 20 years of handling guns. came close though

But my dad did in his apartment in the 70's and had to explain to the landlord why there was a hole in the upstairs neighbors floor and ceiling.

Crazed_SS
08-17-2009, 2:46 PM
So when my SKS fired, but the safety was on and my finger was off the trigger, what exactly do you call that, then?

Black Magic? :)

Black Majik
08-17-2009, 2:53 PM
Black Magic Black Majik? :)

Corrected. ;)

subin
08-17-2009, 2:55 PM
many years ago, after cleaning my G19, I put the mag in and release the slide. I had two mags at the time, one was loaded and the other was empty. I "assume" the empty one was inserted and pull the trigger. The G19 was about 8" away from my face and I started looking for holes on the wall. Could not find any and a few mintes later, found a small hole on the Calculus (could be physics) textbook on the shelf and the bullet was trapped inside.

74elko
08-17-2009, 3:03 PM
I've been hunting since I was about 13 and I have always been told to keep the safety on and the chamber empty when getting into a campsite or vehicle. Well I was 15 and I had a 30-06 and was getting into my grandfathers friends truck on the way from our campsite to the hunting spot. I get in and go to adjust the gun to set it across my lap when all of the sudden I and everybody else heard what seemed to be the loudest click ever. Grandpas friend says "that better have not been what I thought that was". I told him it was just me putting the safety on, which was a lie and they knew it. That was one ride and a much longer lecture. I guess I was lucky though that I followed half of the rules, I didnt have a round in the chamber.

Rob454
08-17-2009, 3:06 PM
I had one. I hada old MAS 59/66 and I took it out to shoot it. Chambered a round. Gun did not fire. Waited. Ejected the round and let the bolt fly ( the round never ejected) It was a spent case the guy next to me shot and it flew by me. The already chambered round was hit by the next round and bang it went off. basically the ejector was too worn down and it wasnt ejecting the rounds out. I ended up cutting up the rifle and throwing it out.

My neighbors kid was screwing aorund one day and he shot two rounds through his house and through my house. it traveled through two sheets of drywall and a stud, then went through my pillow and my comforter through my tv and through two other sheets of drywall. I came home and I had all this glass and drywall dust everywhere. The neighbor took care of te damages but the kid got his *** beat by the dad

Z ME FLY
08-17-2009, 3:22 PM
not yet

MasterYong
08-17-2009, 3:32 PM
Wow I thought NDs were MUCH less common than they appear to be!

If the wrong person reads this thread they're really gonna get the wrong idea.

I'm so ridiculously safe with my firearms that I have a Mossy 500A that I bought over a month ago and I haven't even put a round in the tube because I haven't taken it to the range to do a proper live function test.

My buddy? First thing he does when he buys a new gun is chambers a round to make sure it feeds reliably. Does he go to a range first? No. -At least he points it at the ground when he does it!

aplinker
08-17-2009, 3:50 PM
Difference is between having a loaded magazine in the gun when you have a reason for it to be there (carry arm and going out) vs. having a loaded magazine, chamber and cocked hammer when you don't have a real reason for magazine and chamber loaded with the hammer cocked. Loading a firearm at home so you can carry = proper. Loading a firearm at home to show off to your friends = improper.

So, with this post and the previous, you're saying the only legitimate way to keep a firearm at home is with an unloaded chamber?

I'm a bit dumbfounded.

Jonathan Doe
08-17-2009, 3:53 PM
I had couple of accidental discharges during work. I have worked some cases in which couple of guns have mechanical problems and went full auto when not expected.

Beatone
08-17-2009, 4:02 PM
Never had any and I hope I never do.

snobord99
08-17-2009, 6:02 PM
So, with this post and the previous, you're saying the only legitimate way to keep a firearm at home is with an unloaded chamber?

I'm a bit dumbfounded.

If you read my other posts, you should have noticed that I said I don't necessarily believe this. All I'm saying is that this is what the negligence argument would be. What I do believe, however, is that it is a better idea not to have a loaded chamber unless you expect to fire it in the near future (as in you're at the range or you suspect someone is in your house who shouldn't be). I wouldn't say that having one in the chamber automatically crosses the negligence threshold, but I'm sure many people would and it wouldn't be too hard to convince a jury that you were negligent if you have one in the chamber at home.

Is this really that confusing?

GunLover
08-17-2009, 6:29 PM
Never. Knock on wood. I have been shooting for 33 years.

THT
08-17-2009, 6:31 PM
I haven't but my FIL has. Happened in the basement while he was messing with his G17

Kokopelli
08-17-2009, 6:38 PM
This does not have a happy ending. Feel free to skip ahead.

In 1979, I was giving my friend, Mark, a ride home after work. We usually partied after work and he asked if I would like to come in to his brother's house for a beer. "Not tonight." I said. "The ol' lady has been getting pretty mad at me for coming home late. I'll pass. Maybe tomorrow." I dropped off Mark at the house.

The front door was very hard to close and you had to slam it to shut it. Mark slammed the door behind him. At the door slam, a rifle fell off the wall and struck the floor butt first. It discharged, and struck my good friend in the face. He expired in seconds. You see, Mark's older brother kept a loaded Mauser 98 in 8X57 on the wall in the living room. There was "one in the chamber."

Mark was one of those rare people in life that everyone loves. Great personality, handsome & likable. He was both my supervisor and best friend. He was 26.

I love guns. Sadly, Mark's brother was an irresponsible gun owner. Enjoy your guns but treat them with respect.

Voo
08-17-2009, 9:24 PM
Ive only had a ND. I came THAT close to blasting a buddy with a .40 caliber bullet. I still get weirded out when I think about it. Ever since that day, I've tried to be ridiculously careful about gun handling.

That said, I do think there are such things as ND's and AD's. ND are just that, negligent. ie breaking the cardinal gun handling rules, being a monkey, etc etc. These are plenty of examples of people being STUPID while handling loaded firearms.

AD's I think are also legitimate occurrences. I think it's amazing that some people seem to think that it's impossible to have only NDs. I dont' know about you, but I'm not that omniscient. I mean, how in the world does the average gun user determine when a gun is not functioning 100% correctly. Do people really think OEM's never make mistakes and new guns never have broken safeties, hammer follows, or go FA? These things are machines, and prone to mechanical failures.

I just dont' see how ND's are rationalized to include all types of equipment failure. Just by logic, if you can think of a single incident where a user is not responsible for a gun firing, then there must exist both ND's and AD's...

nativeofsandiego
08-17-2009, 10:56 PM
Wow, these stories are enlightening. The only accidental discharge I ever had, occurred while my gun was still pointed down range. It was a very sensitive trigger...

As a matter of fact I was shooting about a month ago at a range in Colorado, near Colorado Springs. That day, someone was shot and killed at another range by an accidental discharge.

http://www.denverpost.com/aurora/ci_12871366

LAKA90034
08-17-2009, 11:17 PM
So when my SKS fired, but the safety was on and my finger was off the trigger, what exactly do you call that, then?


I had the same thing happen with an SKS..one round slam fire. The muzzle was pointed in a safe direction...everyone went home with no holes in them....as I'm sure was the case with your SKS mishap.

I don't believe that there is such a thing as an Accidental Discharge....the best way I've heard it expressed is Unintentional Discharge.

Things happen...sometimes things beyond our direct control..and that is hardly negligence...not following basic firearm safety rules and having an Unintentional Discharge result in an injury or worse would be tragic negligence.

YoungJoe
08-17-2009, 11:31 PM
Took my new pistol to the range. The thing has a really stiff trigger pull. After a few rounds, I thought it had jammed and started to look at it, but still had my finger on the trigger. The little bit of extra pull from torquing my wrist set it off. Redface me, but the bullet still went downrange, luckily.

Ever since, it's basic safety all the way. :whistling:

5hundo
08-17-2009, 11:52 PM
Does an "Airsoft" with a crappy safety count? :confused:

In not, then never...

Futurecollector
08-18-2009, 12:20 AM
this thread is a
http://www.intternetti.net/~jiri/motivation/repost.jpg

Futurecollector
08-18-2009, 12:21 AM
I had a Accidental discharge and a Negligent one all in the same night



The girl was NOT happy :43:

AaronHorrocks
08-18-2009, 6:49 AM
I had the same thing happen with an SKS..one round slam fire. The muzzle was pointed in a safe direction...everyone went home with no holes in them....as I'm sure was the case with your SKS mishap.

I don't believe that there is such a thing as an Accidental Discharge....the best way I've heard it expressed is Unintentional Discharge.

Things happen...sometimes things beyond our direct control..and that is hardly negligence...not following basic firearm safety rules and having an Unintentional Discharge result in an injury or worse would be tragic negligence.

Yes, it was pointed down range, but up at about a 45 degree angle. Good thing I was on a range in Colorado with a back stop (a small rolling hill) out at about 2 miles. ...and nothing was behind that for another 20 miles.

dirtykoala
08-18-2009, 7:39 AM
I had a Accidental discharge and a Negligent one all in the same night



The girl was NOT happy :43:

is there a difference?

madmike
08-18-2009, 9:57 AM
Mine was an SKS slam fire. Pointed down range, at a proper backstop, on BLM land, in Nevada, summer of '97. It was a very valuable lesson, and I'm glad it happened at just the right time (and not in the house or some other inappropriate place). I sold the SKS shortly after, and I still kick myself every once in a while for not hanging on to it and trying to fix it. Now I know it's a simple fix and I could have done it in a few minutes myself.


-madmike.

fusionstar
08-18-2009, 10:32 AM
A discharge due to a weapon malfunction (e.g. a bad trigger job) is hardly "Negligent."
ADs and NDs are different.



a bad trigger job = negligent

A good gunsmith or a trigger job requires safety checks. Obviously if it AD'ed then someone was negligent

dascoyne
08-18-2009, 11:42 AM
a bad trigger job = negligent

A good gunsmith or a trigger job requires safety checks. Obviously if it AD'ed then someone was negligent
You lost the point that was being made. The point is that AD is different than ND.

But if you'd rather parse the semantics let's do it right: In the above case you only presume that the gunsmith was "negligent." Had the gunsmith performed the "bad trigger job" intentionally then your argument loses meaning. Since neither of us has insight to the gunsmith's modus operandi then it remains, at best, an AD.

Cheers.

duc748bip
08-18-2009, 11:49 AM
None.. (knock on wood)
I never had an accident on my motorcycle for 10 years. All my riding buddy told me "You WILL have one!"
I guess unlike riiding a motorcycle you have other people on the road cutting you off.
With firearm .. if you have the them locked up and proberly stored you don't have people coming and dropping round in your chamber while you are not looking. But its better to check everytime ;)

DougJ
08-18-2009, 3:28 PM
I had one that I remember. Years ago I took my Dads old Browning 12 gauge auto out duck hunting. At one time he had some double fire and other issues with it, but supposedly it was fixed. Of course it was pouring rain and when I was unloading it I let it slip and then grabbed for it, I grabbed hard and fast to keep it from dropping into the mud. Unfortunately, just the shock of the grab and it went off; it was on safe (verified afterwards) and I'm pretty sure I didn't touch the trigger. During this graceful event I damn near blew my left leg off, the muzzle dropped down and when it went boom it actually blasted a hole in my jeans and shredded the top of my boot. :eek:

So, I got to keep my leg with only a half a dozen #2 pellets added to it. A couple in the front of the calf and the rest down lower, I guess they were deflected by the boot. Some exited but they had to dig around in the ankle area to get the rest.

It smarted a bit - my hunting partner FREAKED, he saw the smoking hole in the pants and the ground, with white stuff around the steaming hole in the mud. Kinda looked like bone, but I guess it was boot and pant particles. It took a little convincing to get him to help me get the boot off. I was a little afraid the foot was going to come off with the boot, but just a little blood was all there was.

We were 16 at the time and playing hooky from school...

Hogxtz
08-18-2009, 7:22 PM
There is no such thing as an accidental discharge. The word accident implies it was not avoidable. An unwanted discharge represents negligence and not handling the firearm in a safe manner and paying attention.

JBird33
08-18-2009, 7:36 PM
There is no such thing as an accidental discharge. The word accident implies it was not avoidable. An unwanted discharge represents negligence and not handling the firearm in a safe manner and paying attention.

Let's stick to the topic at hand and take arguing over the definition of the words elsewhere. The spirit of the thread is about who has experienced such issues, not what to call them.

dascoyne
08-18-2009, 8:23 PM
Let's stick to the topic at hand and take arguing over the definition of the words elsewhere. The spirit of the thread is about who has experienced such issues, not what to call them.thank you

LexLuther
08-18-2009, 9:02 PM
Frigging A, you open this thread thinking it might be educational, and you get some lame argument about the fine differences between accidental and negligent...Dang, just answer the question you know what he meant. Maybe we could settle on unintentiaonal...I had one, when I was about 15, and left in the woods with a 9mm while others wen for help. Lucky for me, I had it pointed in a safe direction and learned a permenant and healthy respect. Since then I have seen at least 2 unintentional discharges, If you shoot much, it will eventually happen to you...no matter what you call it.