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StrangeBrew
06-02-2005, 11:13 AM
and reallized i cannot use them to order the sks. I really want one of the Yugo's without the grenade launcher. Are there any vendors that will allow me to use my c&r to order an sks? I guess the yugo is no 50 years old yet, so a russian will do, but i cant find vendors that sell the russian model.

Noonanda
06-02-2005, 11:44 AM
your only chance of finding a russian is on one of the auction sites, no importers are selling them now

icormba
06-02-2005, 11:51 AM
welcome to the club!

Gunbroker & auction arms seem to have a lot of decent Russians for $200-$250.

also, someone mentioned something about the 50 year rule may not apply to interstate purchases by Fed 03 holders... like buying mail order or over the internet? I would look into that before attempting it though... maybe the DOJ has a comment on it?
The only info I can find is buying or transfering from a FFL 01 inside California.

StrangeBrew
06-02-2005, 11:54 AM
yeah the reason i got my C&R is to avoid the ffl fees, there are no ffls in my area that charge less then 50 bucks. I am going to try and finda good one on gunbroker, i just hope i can use my C&R to purchase it.

trempel_ry@yahoo.com
06-02-2005, 12:22 PM
Yugo SKS rifles that have been imported into CA are no longer C&R because their grenade launchers have been permanently removed.
Try to find a Russian or a Romanian SKS on auction sites. Both types are considered C&R and are usually excellent in quality. Also, both will have chrome-lined barrels, which the Yugo does not.
Stay away from Albanian SKSs. A few that I've handled looked like crap and are not worth the money, IMO.

imported_EOD Guy
06-02-2005, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by icormba:
welcome to the club!

Gunbroker & auction arms seem to have a lot of decent Russians for $200-$250.

also, someone mentioned something about the 50 year rule may not apply to interstate purchases by Fed 03 holders... like buying mail order or over the internet? I would look into that before attempting it though... maybe the DOJ has a comment on it?
The only info I can find is buying or transfering from a FFL 01 inside California.

There is a lot of confusion around concerning the California regulations on C&R Firearms. The first thing to remember is that California, with few exceptions, requires all firearms transfers within the state to be processed through a dealer. There is no exception for C&R FFL holders. There is however, an exception to the dealer transfer requirement for C&R rifles and shotguns that are over 50 years old. [PC 12078(t)(2)] This exception is available to anyone legally able to possess firearms. California doesn’t care if you are licensed or not, that’s a Federal matter. The 50 year rifle and shotgun exception is the reason that C&R FFL holders in California can receive these types of firearms directly from an out of state supplier.

The California definition for a C&R firearm is exactly the same as that used by BATF in 27CFR. California references both Title 18 and 27 CFR for the definition. If the Feds say a firearm is C&R, so does the California DOJ.

There are a couple of exceptions to the firearms laws that are available to C&R FFL holders. If the licensee also holds a Certificate of Eligibility (COE) from the California DOJ, they are exempt from the 10-day waiting period when buying C&R firearms from a dealer. [PC 12078(t)(1)] The same C&R FFL holder with a COE is also exempt from the one handgun a month law for both C&R and modern handguns. [PC 12072(a)(9)(B)] You also would not need a handgun safety certificate when purchasing C&R handguns. [PC 12807(a)(6)]


Where the C&R FFL comes in handy is when the holder is out of the state. They may purchase any C&R firearm and bring it back to California. The exceptions of course include those “evil” “assault weapons”; and magazines with a capacity greater than 10 rounds cannot be brought back. Any C&R handguns purchased must be registered with the California DOJ within 5 days and are reported on Form BCIA 4100A along with a $19.00 payment for each handgun. [PC 12072(f)(3)]

icormba
06-02-2005, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Trempel:
Yugo SKS rifles that have been imported into CA are no longer C&R because their grenade launchers have been permanently removed.
Try to find a Russian or a Romanian SKS on auction sites. Both types are considered C&R and are usually excellent in quality. Also, both will have chrome-lined barrels, which the Yugo does not.
Stay away from Albanian SKSs. A few that I've handled looked like crap and are not worth the money, IMO.

Strangebrew is talking about the M59 which does not have a GL & is considered a Fed C&R. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

looks like this...
http://m1garand.net/M1Pics/Chris/SKS/Image11.jpg

StrangeBrew
06-02-2005, 12:54 PM
how much do russian sks go for at gun shows? i know there is one comming up in my area, its in vellejo, anyways I wonder if the show will have any russians for sale.

icormba
06-02-2005, 1:10 PM
Originally posted by EOD Guy:

There is a lot of confusion around concerning the California regulations on C&R Firearms. The first thing to remember is that California, with few exceptions, requires all firearms transfers within the state to be processed through a dealer. There is no exception for C&R FFL holders. There is however, an exception to the dealer transfer requirement for C&R rifles and shotguns that are over 50 years old. [PC 12078(t)(2)] This exception is available to anyone legally able to possess firearms. California doesn’t care if you are licensed or not, that’s a Federal matter. The 50 year rifle and shotgun exception is the reason that C&R FFL holders in California can receive these types of firearms directly from an out of state supplier.



Strangbrew & I are talking about interstate not intrastate transactions... I can't find the law that states that I as a 03 FFL holder cannot import/order/buy from an out of state dealer or person a C & R rifle (regardless if it's 50 years old or not). I found the pistol law, but not the rifle one... is it the same one? I am blind sometimes http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

TonyNorCal
06-02-2005, 1:33 PM
I just got my C&R a month or so ago.

+1 to the auction suggestions. Many Russians prices in the 200 to 300 range and many without bids. You can sign up and mail people saying that if it doesn't sell to contact you and maybe work out a deal. Or just bid on the asked price.

There are some distributors who send Yugo SKSs to California C&R holders. The CA-legal version are...
1.) The Yugo m59/66 which normally has a grenade launcher, but has been modified for CA sale by having a muzzle break installed and thus rendering inoperable it's ability to launch grenades.
2.) Yugo M59. More rare. No grenade launcher.

Yugos don't have chrome-lined bores. I don't see this as an issue. If you use corrosive ammo just clean your gun with hot soapy water or a water/ammonia mix after shooting. Takes 2 minutes. Some say the lack of chrome actually helps accuracy (although I don't know about that). Point is, I wouldn't let chrome-lining stop you.

StrangeBrew
06-02-2005, 1:47 PM
Do you know which vendors send the yugo to california? Ive looks but cant seem to find any.

icormba
06-02-2005, 2:03 PM
Originally posted by StrangeBrew:
Do you know which vendors send the yugo to california? Ive looks but cant seem to find any.
Before attempting to do this... I would seek the clarification from the DOJ.

InterOrdnace does it, but I don't know if they will ship to FFL 03's because they don't know our laws either. They ship to 01's
p.s. I/Os's are still a C&R because the GL is still there. (I am assuming this anyway)

Century Arms is not, because the GL is replaced and no longer c&r
What I can't figure out is how they can modify them without the feds going after them if it's no longer C&R?

StrangeBrew
06-02-2005, 2:19 PM
Well i have found alot of nice looking russian skss on auction arms and gunbroker, but i think i am going to hit up the vellejo gun show this comming saturday and see what they have in stock, do you think i would be able to pick one up for under 300? Also what should i look for, what year, manufacture? If i dont see one i like at the gunshow, ill go ahead and buy one on one of the auction sites. thanks for the help guys, i just wish i could get my hands on one of those cheap yugos. Anyone know if there are any gun shops that have the yugo in stock? I live in the east bay near Concord and Walnut Creek.

Thanks for the help guys, i apreciate it

TonyNorCal
06-02-2005, 2:48 PM
Originally posted by StrangeBrew:
Do you know which vendors send the yugo to california? Ive looks but cant seem to find any.
Interordance from what I've heard. I haven't ordered one though. I've decided I want an M1A even though I can't really afford it at the moment. So I'm channeling money towards that. http://www.calguns.net/laughroll.gif

maxicon
06-02-2005, 3:09 PM
i think i am going to hit up the vellejo gun show this comming saturday and see what they have in stock, do you think i would be able to pick one up for under 300?

Most of the Russians I've seen at recent gun shows are pretty expensive - usually over $300, sometimes way over.

I've got a Chinese that has been just fine - reasonably accurate, very reliable, and all that. They're going up in price too, it seems.

Anyone know if there are any gun shops that have the yugo in stock? I live in the east bay near Concord and Walnut Creek.

Sportsmen's Supply in Cambell usually has a few for $180, and Dmitri at City Arms generally has a nice assortment of various SKS' at the gun shows. There's a show at the SJ Fairgrounds June 18-19.

icormba
06-02-2005, 3:18 PM
Originally posted by StrangeBrew:
Well i have found alot of nice looking russian skss on auction arms and gunbroker, but i think i am going to hit up the vellejo gun show this comming saturday and see what they have in stock, do you think i would be able to pick one up for under 300? Also what should i look for, what year, manufacture? If i dont see one i like at the gunshow, ill go ahead and buy one on one of the auction sites. thanks for the help guys, i just wish i could get my hands on one of those cheap yugos. Anyone know if there are any gun shops that have the yugo in stock? I live in the east bay near Concord and Walnut Creek.

Thanks for the help guys, i apreciate it

I got my 3 IO w/ modified GL model 59/66 from Bigmac at Irvington Arms ($175 ? ).
I got my 1 Model 59 from Traders (pictured above for $129 ? ). But I got all 4 before I got my C&R.
I really like the wood on the yugos! all but the Beachwood. Elm & Walnut are GREAT!

I got my 2 Russians back in '97. 1950 Russians do not have a chrome barrel, not sure about 51's. Any 52-54 should have them. I wouldn't pay more than $250-275 for a Russian in person... & I wouldn't pay more than $225-250 on the auctions. The wood on the Russians is artic birch and/or laminate(birch ? )

lots of cool info on the sksboards forum.

p.s. the Albanian SKS is one of the ugliest! funny thing though... it's almost worth more than the Russian!

PJA
06-02-2005, 7:44 PM
Don't forget to send a copy of your C & R to Midway, Brownell's etc. You will recapture your $30.00 within your first couple of orders due to their dealer discounts.
Pete

StrangeBrew
06-02-2005, 8:35 PM
ok well i am going to check out the gunshow on saturday, if i dont see anything, which i probably wont, I am going to consider bidding on this http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=6716106

I did want the stock to be alittle darker, i love the look of those dark russian stocks.

imported_EOD Guy
06-03-2005, 5:18 AM
Originally posted by icormba:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EOD Guy:

There is a lot of confusion around concerning the California regulations on C&R Firearms. The first thing to remember is that California, with few exceptions, requires all firearms transfers within the state to be processed through a dealer. There is no exception for C&R FFL holders. There is however, an exception to the dealer transfer requirement for C&R rifles and shotguns that are over 50 years old. [PC 12078(t)(2)] This exception is available to anyone legally able to possess firearms. California doesn’t care if you are licensed or not, that’s a Federal matter. The 50 year rifle and shotgun exception is the reason that C&R FFL holders in California can receive these types of firearms directly from an out of state supplier.



Strangbrew & I are talking about interstate not intrastate transactions... I can't find the law that states that I as a 03 FFL holder cannot import/order/buy from an out of state dealer or person a C & R rifle (regardless if it's 50 years old or not). I found the pistol law, but not the rifle one... is it the same one? I am blind sometimes http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My posting covers transactions with California residents. Federal law requires any FFL to comply with the laws of any states in which they do business(27CFR,478.58). Since California law requires that California residents process all firearms transactions (with certain exceptions) through a California licensed dealer[PC 12072(d)], out of state dealers are required by Federal law to comply with the California laws. As I stated, California does not exempt C&R FFL's from the requirement to go through a dealer.

I'm not sure which pistol law to which you are referring. If you would cite the applicable part of the Penal Code, I could give you a better answer.

By the way, the little blurb I wrote on the California regulations concerning C&R firearms was reviewed by an attorney familiar with California firearms law and he said it covered the regulations pretty well.

icormba
06-03-2005, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by EOD Guy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by icormba:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EOD Guy:

There is a lot of confusion around concerning the California regulations on C&R Firearms. The first thing to remember is that California, with few exceptions, requires all firearms transfers within the state to be processed through a dealer. There is no exception for C&R FFL holders. There is however, an exception to the dealer transfer requirement for C&R rifles and shotguns that are over 50 years old. [PC 12078(t)(2)] This exception is available to anyone legally able to possess firearms. California doesn’t care if you are licensed or not, that’s a Federal matter. The 50 year rifle and shotgun exception is the reason that C&R FFL holders in California can receive these types of firearms directly from an out of state supplier.



Strangbrew & I are talking about interstate not intrastate transactions... I can't find the law that states that I as a 03 FFL holder cannot import/order/buy from an out of state dealer or person a C & R rifle (regardless if it's 50 years old or not). I found the pistol law, but not the rifle one... is it the same one? I am blind sometimes http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My posting covers transactions with California residents. Federal law requires any FFL to comply with the laws of any states in which they do business(27CFR,478.58). Since California law requires that California residents process all firearms transactions (with certain exceptions) through a California licensed dealer[PC 12072(d)], out of state dealers are required by Federal law to comply with the California laws. As I stated, California does not exempt C&R FFL's from the requirement to go through a dealer.

I'm not sure which pistol law to which you are referring. If you would cite the applicable part of the Penal Code, I could give you a better answer.

By the way, the little blurb I wrote on the California regulations concerning C&R firearms was reviewed by an attorney familiar with California firearms law and he said it covered the regulations pretty well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the clarification EOD guy!
can you paste a direct link to [PC 12072(d)],
I want to find out what these "certain exceptions" are.

imported_EOD Guy
06-03-2005, 12:19 PM
There is not a list of exceptions. You have to find them throughout different sections of the penal code. One of the reasons the California firearms laws are so confusing is that there are so many cross references. You read one section which send you to another section and are them directed to yet another section to see if the exception in the second section applies, etc.

Some of the exceptions are:

Gifts, bequests, and intestate succession between immediate family members [PC 12078(c)].

Transfers of C&R rifles and shotguns that are at least 50 years old [PC 12078(t)(2)].

There are a lot of miscellaneous exceptions that most unlicensed individuals would not be able to take advantage of or are of concern to government agencies. Most are in PC 12078.

TonyNorCal
06-03-2005, 2:12 PM
Originally posted by StrangeBrew:
ok well i am going to check out the gunshow on saturday, if i dont see anything, which i probably wont, I am going to consider bidding on this http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=6716106

I did want the stock to be alittle darker, i love the look of those dark russian stocks.

Nice, but $35 for shipping seems high.

In re: to gun shows...a C&R purchased from a dealer at a show would still either require a COE or a 10 day wait?
I am guessing that the only way find and carry out an SKS from a show would be to find someone walkign around and looking to sell.

imported_Telpierion
06-03-2005, 3:05 PM
Originally posted by Tony:
I am guessing that the only way find and carry out an SKS from a show would be to find someone walkign around and looking to sell.

Even then it would need to meet the 50 year requirement. The only 50 year old, Russians, SKS I've seen at CA gunshows were priced ridiculously high. Probably do to the fact they are the only SKS rifles eligible for cash and carry.

jon.ocab@gmail.com
06-03-2005, 3:10 PM
In re: to gun shows...a C&R purchased from a dealer at a show would still either require a COE or a 10 day wait?
I am guessing that the only way find and carry out an SKS from a show would be to find someone walkign around and looking to sell.

If the person you buy a C&R from holds a 01FFL license, then according to CA law, you must still fill out a DROS and wait 10 days.

If you buy a C&R from someone at a show who a C&R FFL holder or is a non-FFL, then you can purchase the rifle from them straight up with out 01FFL PPT assuming the rifle is older than 50 years of age.

Welcome to the realm of C&R. I'm amazed by how many people in California don't have one. It's one of the last few privileges CA citizens can still partake in.

My opinion, just get the SKS from Turners. I bought my M59 from them several months ago. Use the C&R to mail order the other stuff. Don't forget a few Garands from the CMP.

icormba
06-03-2005, 5:23 PM
Originally posted by ocabj:
If you buy a C&R from someone at a show who a C&R FFL holder or is a non-FFL, then you can purchase the rifle from them straight up with out 01FFL PPT assuming the rifle is older than 50 years of age.



p.s. you can also buy a 50 year or older SKS from a non-03 regular joe without transfer paperwork.
Most Russian SKS's are over 50 years old & I have 2, if I wanted to sell 1 to someone person to person... we do not need an FFL transfer. Doesn't matter that I have a C&R as long as the buyer is not prevented from owning firearms blah blah and so on. Only difference in having a C&R and not having a C&R is that I have to log the Disposition in my bound book.

imported_EOD Guy
06-04-2005, 4:23 AM
Originally posted by ocabj:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In re: to gun shows...a C&R purchased from a dealer at a show would still either require a COE or a 10 day wait?
I am guessing that the only way find and carry out an SKS from a show would be to find someone walkign around and looking to sell.

If the person you buy a C&R from holds a 01FFL license, then according to CA law, you must still fill out a DROS and wait 10 days.

If you buy a C&R from someone at a show who a C&R FFL holder or is a non-FFL, then you can purchase the rifle from them straight up with out 01FFL PPT assuming the rifle is older than 50 years of age.

Welcome to the realm of C&R. I'm amazed by how many people in California don't have one. It's one of the last few privileges CA citizens can still partake in.

My opinion, just get the SKS from Turners. I bought my M59 from them several months ago. Use the C&R to mail order the other stuff. Don't forget a few Garands from the CMP. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have a C&R FFL and a COE, you are exempt from the 10 day wait when buying C&R firearms from a dealer. Also, in that case, rifles and shotguns would not have to be DROS'd. Handguns do need to go through DROS because of the registration requirement. I have purchased several C&R rifles from different California dealers and none went through the DROS process.

StrangeBrew
06-04-2005, 1:16 PM
well i just got back from the gun show, it was the "code of the west" show at the fairgrounds in vellejo. I only found one russian sks someone had and it was $400, so i have made up my mind about ordering one from an auction site, and using my C&R license. If anyone comes across a good deal on a russian SKS just let me know, i might wait awhile for a good one to come up.

At least i didnt leave the show empty handed, I bought 120 rounds of 7.5 swiss for my K31 and some 7.62x25 for my cz 52. I also got a good deal on .357 magnum.

icormba
06-04-2005, 1:24 PM
StrangeBrew, I PM'ed you some info!

imported_Telpierion
06-04-2005, 5:58 PM
I only found one russian sks someone had and it was $400, so i have made up my mind about ordering one from an auction site, and using my C&R license.


I was at the Bakersfield show today. I saw three Russians. One guy wanted $400 another guy had two and wanted $450 for one. His other had beed rigged up with a scope. I didn't ask about that one. The place was pretty dead. I did see a nice BSA Martini in .32 S&W that some bastard tapped and stuck a scope on.

StrangeBrew
06-04-2005, 6:20 PM
Originally posted by Telpierion:

I was at the Bakersfield show today. I saw three Russians. One guy wanted $400 another guy had two and wanted $450 for one. His other had beed rigged up with a scope. I didn't ask about that one. The place was pretty dead. I did see a nice BSA Martini in .32 S&W that some bastard tapped and stuck a scope on.
Hmm yeah, i really didnt see much at the gunshow i went to either, i like the ammo prices though.

Anyone know where i can find documentation that allows a C&R holder in california to purchase a Russian SKS that is 50 years old. this guy is selling a 1953 russian sks, and emailed me saying

"I'm not sure of all the laws concerning C&R Guns in California, but I don't think this gun can be sent to your state. If you are aware of the law that allows it please let me know. Otherwise please don't bid any more. Mike"

imported_Telpierion
06-04-2005, 7:10 PM
The problem with that is it's not that there is a law that says it's OK but that there is no low prohibiting it. Send him EOD's write up. If he still won't send it to you then it's probably not worth the hassle. Just find another one.