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View Full Version : Anyone know where i can get a 80% 1911 frame?


brokendreams55621
07-11-2005, 10:30 PM
Anyone know where i can get a 80% 1911 frame?

bwiese
07-11-2005, 10:58 PM
JackRabbit...

The only 1911 frames you can get legally in CA will be 100% frames w/serial #s that can be PPT'd (private-party transferred) to you via FFL dealer. That is, getting one from someone who had it before 2001? 2002? when frames could still be sold in CA>

You cannot buy a new 1911 frame anymore directly from FFL dealer in CA since it is not a 'safe gun' - an FFL cannot import one for you.

The only people who can bring 'unsafe' handguns into CA are those moving here from out of state to reside here, and then registering them. (These folks are called 'personal handgun importers' and they are exempt from the 'unsafe gun' law, but cannot import hicap magazines.)

It appears it's illegal (misdemeanor) to manufacture or import an 'unsafe gun' in CA.
While a few people here may disagree, I have heard this directly from the horse's mouth (Tim Riegert, deputy head of California DOJ Firearms Div, at an NRA Member's Council dinner meeting Q&A session) when questioned about this.

The only 'unsafe gun' you can really build in CA, exempt from these stoopid laws, are single action revolvers holding 5 or more rounds and with a bbl length of 3" or more.

When you take an 80% frame (i.e., a non-gun) and drill more holes, etc it becomes a gun in eyes of ATF (and CA) and must be serialized. Once it's a gun, you've 'manufactured'. If you do this out of state, you can't bring it back in, etc. etc.

I really dunno all the fascination w/80% frames, etc. It'll cost damned near the price - esp considering your time - of a base model Springfield 1911 that you can build up. Just buy a Springfield Armory 1911 and go from there. Trying to save $150 to do $250 worth of work and possibly get lawyers involved just doesn't make sense.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

bu-bye
07-12-2005, 1:15 AM
http://www.tanneryshop.com

http://www.ktordnance.com

I still trying to pick between the two. Tannery has a standard dust cover look while the KT has a full dust cover. I think I might take the KT and mill off the rail on the bottom and give it a boxy look like the gun in the SHOWCASE page. I'm also toying with an idea of a quick attach/detach rail for it. Will fit in a holster but still be able to hold a light if needed. Options are endless when you make your own.

bwiese
07-12-2005, 1:51 PM
BuBye,
I don't know why you want to do this (other than fun) - not worth the legal grief.

Bill Wiese
San Jose

bu-bye
07-12-2005, 8:51 PM
Because I like to build and make things. I would rather spend more on the same gun if I made it myself. The feeling of finishing a job be it my car or a gun is a great feeling for me. Legal wise I still feel its ok to make your own from the information I have. I really don't want to get into the whole thing again but thanks for your concern, it really is appreciated.

colossians323
07-12-2005, 9:21 PM
Okay boys look in the firearms for sale adds.
I just saw two 1911 frames for sale, for what appears to be a reasonabloe price, in Lancaster.

bwiese
07-14-2005, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by bu-bye:
Because I like to build and make things. I would rather spend more on the same gun if I made it myself. The feeling of finishing a job be it my car or a gun is a great feeling for me. Legal wise I still feel its ok to make your own from the information I have.

The information you have has a very good chance of being incorrect. As I recall, it was a general statement from a general-purpose lawyer who didn't spend a buncha time going thru the laws, case law, etc.

The 'information I have' is straight from the mouth of the Asst. Director of DOJ Firearms Div, standing next to his boss, Randy Rossi. Tim Riegert is a lawyer and a pretty smart guy and who understands concept of legislative intent, and this overall 'build your own gun' stuff was well-discussed at a recent NRA dinner meeting.

You might, in fact, be able to prove him wrong. I just hope you have a spare $10K around (worse, if you live in a metro area) if you encounter problems.

At least it's only a misdeamenor. I'm not sure, however, if this charge could be used as an enhancer for subsequent future gun charges (raising, say, a 1st offense CCW from no jail to jail time...)


Bill Wiese
San Jose

stator
07-14-2005, 8:39 PM
I know the ATF special agent at the San Jose office participates on this board. I learned that from him when I "surrendered" my evil machine-gun FAL hunk of metal over to him. Is that you?

Inoxmark
07-14-2005, 8:55 PM
Is that you? Just when I thought that one currently running on this board conspiracy theory (LAguns/ShorePaul) was enough. Let's play nice. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

bwiese
07-15-2005, 1:20 AM
Originally posted by stator:
I know the ATF special agent at the San Jose office participates on this board. I learned that from him when I "surrendered" my evil machine-gun FAL hunk of metal over to him. Is that you?

You referring to me?

No. I'm not on welfare, unlike ATF agents. I've never taken a gov't paycheck in my life (except for slight tax refunds now & then).


Bill Wiese
San Jose

fun2none
07-15-2005, 9:24 PM
Take Bill's advice. I was at that meeting where CA DOJ answered our questions. I asked Tim Reigert several times about the legality of making a handgun. My presumption was that so long as the handgun is for personal use, and I can legally own a handgun, and serial numer was imprinted on the receiver, it should ok. I was under the impression that manufacturing something implies making items for resale.

Tim pulled out the his CA penal code handbook and quoted the relevant section(s). It is illegal to manufacture an unsafe handgun is California. I recall that the only exemptions were single action and samples or prototypes submitted to DOJ for testing & evaluation.

Here's another scenario for consideration: if you really want to make your own handgun, buy an existing handgun, like a $60 Lorcin or Raven, and build a new gun around the serial number portion of the existing receiver. It would be similar to remodelling a house around an existing structure like the wall or chimney. To my knowledge, there is nothing illegal about changing the caliber or fire control mechanism of a handgun (so long as it's not full auto or .50BMG).

fun2none
07-15-2005, 9:31 PM
Regarding my last post, what I mean't to say is "modify an existing handgun" not "make a new handgun", since making an unsafe handgun probably fall outside the law in California.

saki302
07-18-2005, 12:15 AM
If you built, or started your build over 80% (i.e. drilled 3 holes) prior to 2000 when SB-15 passed, you'd be safe.

I *think* if you built one prior to 2000, and it broke, you're allowed to build a replacement too, but you'd best check on that one.

now since CA registers handguns, I have no idea if you did build one in '99, what the requirements would have been to register it, or if that was even necessary. Who knows- too much legal gunk to wade through.

I was told by a DOJ employee on the phone that if I sold a handgun on an auction, I can legally ship it myself to any other FFL. BUT I'm not required to report it sold?!? I thought that was an odd one- they do have a form to report handgun sales, and I've used it before anyways.

-Dave

-hanko
07-18-2005, 5:22 PM
Originally posted by Dave A.:I was told by a DOJ employee on the phone that if I sold a handgun on an auction, I can legally ship it myself to any other FFL. BUT I'm not required to report it sold?!? I thought that was an odd one- they do have a form to report handgun sales, and I've used it before anyways.

-Dave
No law saying a gun cannot be shipped to an FFL BY an individual, save maybe class 3 weapons which are not particularly germane in the PRK.

Reporting a handgun sale is optional for the seller.

-hanko

bwiese
07-18-2005, 5:39 PM
Originally posted by Dave A.:
If you built, or started your build over 80% (i.e. drilled 3 holes) prior to 2000 when SB-15 passed, you'd be safe.

I *think* if you built one prior to 2000, and it broke, you're allowed to build a replacement too, but you'd best check on that one.

I believe your handgun frame would come into existence when both (1) it's got holes and (2) you assign it a serial number and self- registered it with DOJ (you'd also need a BFSC/HSC)

The replacement issue is murky. Destroying the old one and making a new one w/same S/N might or might not fly.

I know that Colt will 'remanufacture' AW receivers w/same S/N if your AR lower is messed up (they might do this for other frames too). But that is being done out of state.


now since CA registers handguns, I have no idea if you did build one in '99, what the requirements would have been to register it, or if that was even necessary. Who knows- too much legal gunk to wade through.

I think you'd have to 'paper it' w/DOJ 'voluntary' registration form.

I was told by a DOJ employee on the phone that if I sold a handgun on an auction, I can legally ship it myself to any other FFL. BUT I'm not required to report it sold?!? I thought that was an odd one- they do have a form to report handgun sales, and I've used it before anyways.

Never rely on DOJ people on phone for legal advice, just general guidance. For this instance, they were right.

You can ship any non-assualt-weapon, non-50BMG to any FFL, inside or outside CA. (Shipping AWs and 50BMGs out of state via a carrier requires you to use services of a CA FFL holding a CA AW or 50BMG dealer permit.)

Yes, you do not have to tell DOJ about your getting rid of it but you can notify them with a 'no longer in possession form'.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

bwiese
07-18-2005, 5:44 PM
Fun2none...

Originally posted by fun2none:
Take Bill's advice. I was at that meeting where CA DOJ answered our questions.

Thanks for backing me up.

[I honed in on that discussion. I was the guy asking if a double action revolver not on 'The List' could be brought in as a single action (by slight change in action), and was also asking about transport/shipment of Type III AWs when broken apart into separate containers, etc.)]

Yeah, different sections of the law have different meanings assigned to words like 'manufacture'.


Bill W
San Jose