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View Full Version : Acquisition of non-approved handguns (Part 3)


PinnedAndRecessed
02-09-2005, 12:44 PM
This is the final word from the California DOJ and the federal BATF on acquiring non-approved handguns from an out-of-state parent or grandparent. We've had two threads on this already but so much information/misinformation was circulated it was necessary to clarify the subject.

The California DOJ says you can receive up to 3 non-approved handguns per year (as long as they are not specifically forbidden, viz., assault type weapons) from your parent or grandparent but that you must physically take possession. If your parent/grandparent lives out-of-state, they must come here or you must go there to pick it up. It cannot be shipped to a FFL since the FFL does not know if it truly came from your parent.

Once you take possession of the firearm and bring it into the state, you simply fill out a form (on this website) and send it to the DOJ.

I also called the BATF. The BATF (916-498-5095) said that is fine as long as the recipient (you or your wife) are not legally forbidden from owning a handgun. (Felons, domestic abuse, etc.) The agent to whom I talked at the BATF said that non-approved handguns obviously could not go to a FFL.

I hope this clears up the confusion.

PinnedAndRecessed
02-09-2005, 12:44 PM
This is the final word from the California DOJ and the federal BATF on acquiring non-approved handguns from an out-of-state parent or grandparent. We've had two threads on this already but so much information/misinformation was circulated it was necessary to clarify the subject.

The California DOJ says you can receive up to 3 non-approved handguns per year (as long as they are not specifically forbidden, viz., assault type weapons) from your parent or grandparent but that you must physically take possession. If your parent/grandparent lives out-of-state, they must come here or you must go there to pick it up. It cannot be shipped to a FFL since the FFL does not know if it truly came from your parent.

Once you take possession of the firearm and bring it into the state, you simply fill out a form (on this website) and send it to the DOJ.

I also called the BATF. The BATF (916-498-5095) said that is fine as long as the recipient (you or your wife) are not legally forbidden from owning a handgun. (Felons, domestic abuse, etc.) The agent to whom I talked at the BATF said that non-approved handguns obviously could not go to a FFL.

I hope this clears up the confusion.

jnojr
02-09-2005, 2:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PinnedAndRecessed:
This is the final word from the California DOJ and the federal BATF on acquiring non-approved handguns from an out-of-state parent or grandparent.

The California DOJ says you can receive up to 3 non-approved handguns per year (as long as they are not specifically forbidden, viz., assault type weapons) from your parent or grandparent but that you must physically take possession. If your parent/grandparent lives out-of-state, they must come here or you must go there to pick it up. It cannot be shipped to a FFL since the FFL does not know if it truly came from your parent. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is in direct contradiction to what I was told by one of their people in early January:

Dear Mr. Oliver:

Thank you for your recent inquiry to the Firearms Division. A parent to child transfer can be done from out of state by the parent sending a notarized letter stating they are gifting the firearm to you as their child. The Dealer will conduct the Dealer Record of Sale as being exempt from the Roster. The ten day waiting period still applies.

Thank you,


K. J. Kerr, Analyst
Firearms Division
Department of Justice

PinnedAndRecessed
02-09-2005, 3:10 PM
They told you wrong.

From their web page:

5. Can I give a firearm to my adult child? Can he/she give it back to me later?

Yes, as long as the adult child receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category and the firearm is a legal firearm to possess, the transfer of a firearm between a parent and child or a grandparent and grandchild is exempt from the dealer transfer requirement. However, if the firearm is a handgun, you must submit an Report of Operation of Law or Intra-Familial Handgun Transaction and $19 fee to the DOJ within 30 days. Assault weapons may not be transferred in this fashion. See Penal Code section 12285, subdivision (b).

(PC section 12076(c))

jnojr
02-09-2005, 4:23 PM
Who's to say it wasn't their webmaster who screwed up and put up the wrong info, and the response I got wasn't from the person who decides these things? I don't think we have "the final word" just because somebody there said something that's contradictory to what somebody else there said.

PinnedAndRecessed
02-09-2005, 4:36 PM
O.K., pal. Have it your way. I'm not going to do your homework for you.

Meanwhile, others on this board are getting the guns they want from their folks while you twiddle your thumbs.

Kruzr
02-09-2005, 6:15 PM
If you take what was said literally, there is no contradiction, they are two different situations. The BATF told Pinned that it couldn't go to an FFL since there was no proof of identity. A notarized letter could be the proof needed. They did tell Pinned that the gun had to be physically picked up. The question would have to be asked specifically about the notarized letter. They told jnojr that if it was shipped from out of state, it must go to an FFL. This is a different situation. If the FFL is going to hold the gun and DROS it, then it would be like a transfer from the parent to the FFL and then from the FFL to the child. It would be exempt from the approved list but other than that, it would be the same as a transfer through a dealer......and you would pay transfer fees. This still assumes the notarized letter would satisfy the FFL.

P&R, thanks for calling BATF on this. They told me essentially the same thing when I asked at their booth at the SHOT Show. They said if it's OK with California, it's OK with them.

imported_kantstudien
02-09-2005, 6:28 PM
Wait a damn minute, parent to child tranfers are exempt from the DROS, what the hell is going on??? http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Roboshred
02-09-2005, 8:01 PM
Here's my email from Ms. Kerr.Albeit 6 months old:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Thank you for your recent inquiry to the Firearms Division. As long as the
adult child receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category and the
firearm is a legal firearm to possess, the transfer of a firearm between a
parent and child or a grandparent and grandchild is exempt from the dealer
transfer requirement. However, if the firearm is a handgun, you must submit an
Operation of Law form and $14 fee to the DOJ within 30 days. Assault weapons
may not be transferred in this fashion. See Penal Code section 12285,
subdivision (b).

The form can be downloaded from:
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/index.html

If you have additional questions, please contact the Firearms Division at (916)
263-4887.

Thank you,


K. J. Kerr, Analyst
Firearms Division
Department of Justice
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kruzr
02-09-2005, 8:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kantstudien:
Wait a damn minute, parent to child tranfers are exempt from the DROS, what the hell is going on??? http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes they are provided the handgun isn't shipped into California.

jnojr
02-09-2005, 11:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PinnedAndRecessed:
O.K., pal. Have it your way. I'm not going to do your homework for you.

Meanwhile, others on this board are getting the guns they want from their folks while you twiddle your thumbs. I'm through with this thread. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't read. So sad. Not a lot I can do about that...

jnojr
02-09-2005, 11:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Roboshred:
Here's my email from Ms. Kerr.Albeit 6 months old:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Thank you for your recent inquiry to the Firearms Division. As long as the
adult child receiving the firearm is not in a prohibited category and the
firearm is a legal firearm to possess, the transfer of a firearm between a
parent and child or a grandparent and grandchild is exempt from the dealer
transfer requirement. However, if the firearm is a handgun, you must submit an
Operation of Law form and $14 fee to the DOJ within 30 days. Assault weapons
may not be transferred in this fashion. See Penal Code section 12285,
subdivision (b).

The form can be downloaded from:
http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/index.html

If you have additional questions, please contact the Firearms Division at (916)
263-4887.

Thank you,


K. J. Kerr, Analyst
Firearms Division
Department of Justice
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's $19 now. I just sent in one of these forms (http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/oplaw.pdf) a couple of weeks ago.

imported_EOD Guy
02-10-2005, 9:08 AM
OK, here are the facts. Cal DOJ can tell you what is legal under California law. Federal law hoever, covers interstate transfers of firearms. Federal law forbids the interstate transfer of firearms between unlicensed individuals. Here is the regulation:

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart C_Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Sec. 478.29 Out-of-State acquisition of firearms by nonlicensees.

No person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector, shall transport into or receive
in the State where the person resides (or if a corporation or other
business entity, where it maintains a place of business) any firearm
purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State:
Provided, That the provisions of this section:
(a) Shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by
bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of
residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that
State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such
firearm in that State,
(b) Shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a rifle or
shotgun obtained from a licensed manufacturer, licensed importer,
licensed dealer, or licensed collector in a State other than the
transferee's State of residence in an over-the-counter transaction at
the licensee's premises obtained in conformity with the provisions of
Sec. 478.96(c)

Ted_Bell
02-10-2005, 11:20 AM
I know someone who will be doing this shortly, so I'll post results when I know. Might be a month or so.

bwiese
02-10-2005, 11:33 AM
Calif DOJ info given out from 'analysts' (Kerr etc) is usually pretty good and on target.

I would NOT however rely on verbal info from BATFE: they've been known to be all over the page in whether somehthing is or is not allowed.
I'd get an actual letter from main DC ATF office. For features issues, borderline NFA stuff, etc. stuff I know a Tech Branch letter holds weight but dunno about other stuff.

Several years ago I was asking ATF guys about 922(r)/Sec. 178 domestic/imported compliance issues and got answers du jour from clerks, agents, supervisors. Didn't leave me with a comforting feeling.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

jnojr
02-10-2005, 11:44 AM
I really and truly love how this thread, that was supposed to be "the final word", is now nothing but a mess of contradictions... http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It certainly does go to show how gun laws in California are badly in need of reform.

Kruzr
02-10-2005, 12:40 PM
I've known of 3 transfers from out of state parents. In each case (one from Nevada, two from Arizona), the "child" took possession of the gun from the parent out of state and drove it back here. They filed the Operation of Law form. One was over 3 years ago, and so far, nobody has said anything to any of them. I agree that a written statement is better than a verbal one but even that may not stand up since the BATF doesn't have a final say on how to interpret the laws any more than a local cop does. They may arrest you but can't convict you.

bwiese
02-10-2005, 12:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I agree that a written statement is better than a verbal one but even that may not stand up since the BATF doesn't have a final say on how to interpret the laws any more than a local cop does. They may arrest you but can't convict you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A letter from appropriate div. at BATFE serves as an "opinion letter" in relevant field which a US Attorney (who'd be the one actually filing charges against you) would defer to.

The issue is not guilt vs innocence but avoiding charges. If you're charged, you've lost $25+K maybe even $50K to fight charges (incl lost time from work etc)


Bill Wiese
San Jose

maxicon
02-10-2005, 1:01 PM
OK, let's boil this down. As I see it, there are 2 questions at the heart of this. If I've got it wrong, pipe up. Assume the child in question is legally able to own the firearm in question.

1. Does a firearm gift from a parent to a child need to be DROS'd in California?

The answer's clear on this one - no, it doesn't. This is covered by California law.


2. Can a parent residing in one state legally give a firearm to a child who resides in another state without going through an FFL?

This is covered by federal law, not California law. Unless there's an exemption for parent/child transfers in Federal law (which I haven't been able to find), this is not legal. If there is a parent/child exemption, this is legal; anyone aware of this, please post a cite for the code.

This doesn't mean that someone can't do it; that is, you go visit your dad, he gives you one of his guns, you bring it back and register it in California, and no one says anything. People do this kind of thing all the time, but whether it's legal to do depends on the answer to #2.

Whaddya think?

max

imported_EOD Guy
02-10-2005, 7:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I agree that a written statement is better than a verbal one but even that may not stand up since the BATF doesn't have a final say on how to interpret the laws any more than a local cop does. They may arrest you but can't convict you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I beg to differ. An individual agent or field office may not have the final say, but the Agency certainly does. Congress has given the Attorney General specific authority to write regulations implementing the law. The Attorney General can further deligate that power to the Director of the BATF.

The only one who can overturn a BATF ruling is Congress or the Federal Courts.