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Futurecollector
08-10-2009, 5:08 AM
Ok so I am looking for more info on a decent double shoulder holster, I was wondering if any of you CGers have any experience with carrying 2 Larger framed (G21) pistols in said holster. I want a holster set up that isn't going to cost me 100 bucks, something that just gets the job done.

thanks in advance.

FC

AJAX22
08-10-2009, 5:14 AM
Don't get cheap on holsters, you get what you pay for.

If it is uncomfortable you won't wear it.

Futurecollector
08-10-2009, 5:28 AM
Don't get cheap on holsters, you get what you pay for.

If it is uncomfortable you won't wear it.

I don't intend on going "cheap" I just want affordable,

I just can't/ won't bring myself to pay 100 bucks for a holster

Ive seen a bunch of them in the 40-60 range but they all look the same no matter the maker...

1923mack
08-10-2009, 6:31 AM
If you want a good shoulder holster you will start at $100 at keep climbing north. Most below $100 are not leather and not fitted to the handgun. The quality leather rigs are not standard with two holsters (one holster and one mag holder typical). The Galco Miami Vice lists around $140 or so and can be had for $100. Second holster will set one back another $60 or so. Aker has a nice unit that lists around $135 and available for $104. Stock with one holster. If you are satisified with Uncle Mike or other vinyl rigs so be it.

1911su16b870
08-10-2009, 7:55 AM
Just remember Coopers 2nd law, do not muzzle anything you are not willing to destroy. Many folks think that shoulder holsters violate that law and are accidents waiting to happen.

Darklyte27
08-10-2009, 8:50 AM
i duno if they make shoulder ones, but comptac has some nice holsters..

Z ME FLY
08-10-2009, 8:51 AM
I don't have any experience but I was just looking online to see what would come up. I saw a lot of the cheap ones, this one is from fobus and uses the fobus holsters. IDK if it is better.

Fobus Holsters
Ambidextrous Double Sided Shoulder Holsters Harness Rig
http://www.copsplus.com/prodnum2302.php

asgalindez
08-10-2009, 9:06 AM
I ended up buying a Galco Vertical Shoulder Rig (muzzle pointed down) plus an extra holster for "tacticool doublefisting" occasions. Cost more than $100, though.

If you end up going the Fobus route, let me know. I got one of those Roto Holster Shoulder rigs that I'm never gonna use. That way you just need to buy the holsters.

Z ME FLY
08-10-2009, 9:08 AM
I ended up buying a Galco Vertical Shoulder Rig (muzzle pointed down) plus an extra holster for "tacticool doublefisting" occasions. Cost more than $100, though.

If you end up going the Fobus route, let me know. I got one of those Roto Holster Shoulder rigs that I'm never gonna use. That way you just need to buy the holsters.

That sounds like a cheap option esp if future has a fobus holster

Untamed1972
08-10-2009, 9:17 AM
did you try cheesyeightiescopmovies.com? LOL

Timberland
08-10-2009, 9:28 AM
Anyone know the maker of the rig that held 2 guns a bunch of mags and even an optional SBS or AOW shotgun?

Lancear15
08-10-2009, 9:54 AM
dual g21s in shoulder holsters come on...

Gisray
08-10-2009, 10:07 AM
I got a buddy that he carries 2 G21's in a FIST rig (I think thats the brand). It is kydex with leather on the exterior. He was training with it so much that he sent it back 3 times cause of the snaps. They finally fixed it right and it works good (leather was wrapped after he sent it back) this made it solid. It is a horizontal type vs. a vertical. Some people really get bent on the vertical cause the gun is not pointing towards the ground. I say whatever over that cause your not holding the pistol, but it may or may not bother you. I know that this rig cost around $350.

My buddy is a cop and he carries that everywhere and it is concealable. He is 5'8" 150 and has no trouble with concealing. Plus his philosophy is the New York reload and he has his own land to train.

I looked at mernickle for the leather version and I think it ran around $250 for the vertical. I had the single G21, but after neck surgery it is just not doable, but it was a comfortable holster. You will find that if you are going to wear it any length of time you want quality. If you are only going to wear it for a couple of hours then get what you want.

gunrun45
08-10-2009, 10:19 AM
...well, I can't make to much fun of you... I did carry two Ruger P90's in a double shoulder holster rig for a while... That being said, I was stupid and I was stupid for doing it.
I carried in an Uncle Mike's shoulder holster rig while riding my motorcycle. It was really the only easy way to carry and I figured if I ever took a spill I would bang up the gun on which ever side I went down on.

The holsters perfromed actually pretty well for me and the adjustable nature allowed me to fit other guns as needed.

Funny thing, I did go down. Cracked two ribs on my left side because of that stupid shoulder holster. Never again!

B Strong
08-10-2009, 10:46 AM
Ok so I am looking for more info on a decent double shoulder holster, I was wondering if any of you CGers have any experience with carrying 2 Larger framed (G21) pistols in said holster. I want a holster set up that isn't going to cost me 100 bucks, something that just gets the job done.

thanks in advance.

FC

John Woo fan?

Carry one primary handgun, maybe one small back up, and lots of spare mags.

Untamed1972
08-10-2009, 12:04 PM
...well, I can't make to much fun of you... I did carry two Ruger P90's in a double shoulder holster rig for a while... That being said, I was stupid and I was stupid for doing it.
I carried in an Uncle Mike's shoulder holster rig while riding my motorcycle. It was really the only easy way to carry and I figured if I ever took a spill I would bang up the gun on which ever side I went down on.

The holsters perfromed actually pretty well for me and the adjustable nature allowed me to fit other guns as needed.

Funny thing, I did go down. Cracked two ribs on my left side because of that stupid shoulder holster. Never again!

Funny...as I was reading your post and got the part about "It was really the only easy way to carry and I figured if I ever took a spill I would bang up the gun on which ever side I went down on." I was thinking.....good way to prolly bust up some ribs......then I got to the end of your post. That sucks.....broken ribs ain't fun.....and whatever you do.....don't sneeze!

Futurecollector
08-10-2009, 4:23 PM
I ended up buying a Galco Vertical Shoulder Rig (muzzle pointed down) plus an extra holster for "tacticool doublefisting" occasions. Cost more than $100, though.

If you end up going the Fobus route, let me know. I got one of those Roto Holster Shoulder rigs that I'm never gonna use. That way you just need to buy the holsters.

Ill check out the Fobus rif route and get back to you,

i like the Tacticool Doublefisting. lol

Futurecollector
08-10-2009, 4:24 PM
did you try cheesyeightiescopmovies.com? LOL

I tried them, they just dont have the right holster, I did like the free shipping though... thanks for the link :thumbsup:

Futurecollector
08-10-2009, 4:30 PM
John Woo fan?

Carry one primary handgun, maybe one small back up, and lots of spare mags.

What you dont like John???

AlbqofyY57I

Greg-Dawg
08-10-2009, 4:45 PM
http://crossfitasia.com/ChuckNorris.jpg

Futurecollector
08-10-2009, 11:24 PM
Man the whole Handgun forum has been dead today!

Futurecollector
08-11-2009, 12:25 AM
I think I will be going with this holster, I can't really find anything else that looks good etc etc...

http://www.holsterss.com/servlet/the-15/double-shoulder-holster/Detail

SJgunguy24
08-11-2009, 1:16 AM
IMO fobus is garbage. It's cheap plastic and the one I had the gun would fall out.
My preferences are Bladetech, Safariland, Galco but i'm not "tatical double fisting". I like my G17 or 26 with standard mags for reloads.

B Strong
08-11-2009, 5:14 AM
I got a buddy that he carries 2 G21's in a FIST rig (I think thats the brand). It is kydex with leather on the exterior. He was training with it so much that he sent it back 3 times cause of the snaps. They finally fixed it right and it works good (leather was wrapped after he sent it back) this made it solid. It is a horizontal type vs. a vertical. Some people really get bent on the vertical cause the gun is not pointing towards the ground. I say whatever over that cause your not holding the pistol, but it may or may not bother you. I know that this rig cost around $350.

My buddy is a cop and he carries that everywhere and it is concealable. He is 5'8" 150 and has no trouble with concealing. Plus his philosophy is the New York reload and he has his own land to train.

I looked at mernickle for the leather version and I think it ran around $250 for the vertical. I had the single G21, but after neck surgery it is just not doable, but it was a comfortable holster. You will find that if you are going to wear it any length of time you want quality. If you are only going to wear it for a couple of hours then get what you want.

Most departments take a dim view of "cowboying" on or off duty.

I'm sure his co-workers must get a kick out of it though.

Gisray
08-11-2009, 5:38 PM
Most departments take a dim view of "cowboying" on or off duty.

I'm sure his co-workers must get a kick out of it though.

Not really sure what the term "cowboying" means. There is either policy or no policy. If he is following policy and/or the law, then who cares.

He is one who thinks things out very well, can articulate it well. If his choice happens to be that way and he can make a cognisent arguement of why he does things a certain way then who cares.

Alot of people beleive in the New York reload as opposed to reloading with a fresh mag. If you beleive in it and practice it then I say go for it.

Futurecollector
08-11-2009, 5:47 PM
Not really sure what the term "cowboying" means. There is either policy or no policy. If he is following policy and/or the law, then who cares.

He is one who thinks things out very well, can articulate it well. If his choice happens to be that way and he can make a cognisent arguement of why he does things a certain way then who cares.

Alot of people beleive in the New York reload as opposed to reloading with a fresh mag. If you beleive in it and practice it then I say go for it.

you need to realize that some people are just sad they cant own two of the same gun, those are the people that decide a New York Reload is bad... :rolleyes:

leitung
08-11-2009, 6:01 PM
I personally would only carry one gun myself.. I would not want that much weight on me..

Turbinator
08-12-2009, 4:49 PM
Being a shoulder holster owner, actually owning two, and having tried carrying it around the house all day, I must say that it eventually really drags down your back and starts to get uncomfortable after several hours. I stick to my IWB for home carry.

Turby

B Strong
08-12-2009, 5:32 PM
Not really sure what the term "cowboying" means. There is either policy or no policy. If he is following policy and/or the law, then who cares.

He is one who thinks things out very well, can articulate it well. If his choice happens to be that way and he can make a cognisent arguement of why he does things a certain way then who cares.

Alot of people beleive in the New York reload as opposed to reloading with a fresh mag. If you beleive in it and practice it then I say go for it.

In the spirit of the open exchange of ideas, let's discuss this.

What advantage is there to carrying two of the same pistol?

What tactical benefit does the carrier gain?

Does the carrier draw both pistols at the initial incident that requires the use of force?

If the carrier only draws one pistol, what does he do when it runs dry, or has a malfunction?

How does he secure the piece whe he goes for the second pistol?

Does the carrier have extra magazines, anf if so, how many?

I'll tell you the truth from my pov.

Having been to more than one school, having had a family full of all kinds of LEO's (in peace time) and soldiers and Marines (in war time) and having carried a gun everyday for about the last thirty years, I have never run across a professional ever carrying two of the same pistol for work purposes - I know a few guys who shoot SASS that have double rigs, but no cop that I know carries anything more than a primary and maybe a back-up otj or off.

I will admit that I'd love to run across somebody doing this just so I could give them the business, but that's just my sadistic streak raising it's ugly head.

I am interested in reading answers to my questions, so any NY reload fans, please chime in.

Lucky Scott
08-12-2009, 5:45 PM
I got a rig with my .40 that is a shoulder holster for the gun on one side, and carries a spare magazine on the other.
Really seems uncomfortable and bulky.

Maybe in the winter when jackets are the norm it would be better, but out here on the west coast it is just too hard to have enough clothes to make it work.

Maybe its something you get used too?

B Strong
08-12-2009, 6:00 PM
I got a rig with my .40 that is a shoulder holster for the gun on one side, and carries a spare magazine on the other.
Really seems uncomfortable and bulky.

Maybe in the winter when jackets are the norm it would be better, but out here on the west coast it is just too hard to have enough clothes to make it work.

Maybe its something you get used too?

I was always taught that the piece goes on your strong side belt, at the point of your hip, but I guess that I've been missing out with these NYC reload deals...lol...

Shoulder holsters have their place, but I still carry the way I was taught.

Gisray
08-12-2009, 8:16 PM
In the spirit of the open exchange of ideas, let's discuss this.

What advantage is there to carrying two of the same pistol? Same weapon breeds familiarity. Why would some use a glock as a primary and another glock as a BUG (same mags/same weapon system) or what about cops in the 70's who carried revolvers as primary and as BUG's?
What tactical benefit does the carrier gain? Same can be asked of your choice of carry. Most people think that a gun is carried strong side. So it has a possiblility of surprise and weapon retention.

Does the carrier draw both pistols at the initial incident that requires the use of force? I can't answer, don't know. I would speculate that it would be his primary and use the secondary weapon for that malfunction/reload. Just as though if he was carrying strong side.

If the carrier only draws one pistol, what does he do when it runs dry, or has a malfunction?
Same thing as if you were carrying it strong side, clear malfunction or draw back up secondary weapon.

How does he secure the piece whe he goes for the second pistol?
Keeps it in his primary hand or reholsters, when you train enough things become second nature. That is why a person trains to shoot weak hand. If you train enough you can be just as good with either hand.
Or (speculation) dump it and get the second gun into the fight. At some point it is a defense of life situation vs. worrying about someone else getting ahold of it.

Does the carrier have extra magazines, anf if so, how many?
None, he believes that if he cannot get it done with 28 rounds he needs to get ot a rifle or shotgun...plus he has a S&W airlight in a pocket.:43:

I'll tell you the truth from my pov.

Having been to more than one school, having had a family full of all kinds of LEO's (in peace time) and soldiers and Marines (in war time) and having carried a gun everyday for about the last thirty years, I have never run across a professional ever carrying two of the same pistol for work purposes - I know a few guys who shoot SASS that have double rigs, but no cop that I know carries anything more than a primary and maybe a back-up otj or off.

I will admit that I'd love to run across somebody doing this just so I could give them the business, but that's just my sadistic streak raising it's ugly head.

I am interested in reading answers to my questions, so any NY reload fans, please chime in.

In my experience (medically retired after 15 years plus involved in 3 deadly force incidences) I never worked on the job without 2 guns. It changed from year to year as our wepon systems changed. You can give someone the "business" all you want, but trust me there are people out there who think things thru, can articulate why they do something, and train. I see alot of people who cannot do any of these three.

Bill of Ojai
08-12-2009, 10:01 PM
I can't remember who it is, but somebody manufactures a New York Reload IWB, small of back, holster. The gun butts face opposite directions.

B Strong
08-13-2009, 5:31 AM
Originally Posted by B Strong:

In the spirit of the open exchange of ideas, let's discuss this.

What advantage is there to carrying two of the same pistol?

"Same weapon breeds familiarity."

You don't need to carry two of the same pistol to be familiar with a system.

"Why would some use a glock as a primary and another glock as a BUG (same mags/same weapon system)..."

Duty pistol (let's say G22) with a subcompact back-up (G27) concealed. That makes sense. Two G22's on a rig don't.

"...or what about cops in the 70's who carried revolvers as primary and as BUG's?"

See above. K frame Smith and a J frame back-up. Timeless configuration.

What tactical benefit does the carrier gain?

"Same can be asked of your choice of carry. Most people think that a gun is carried strong side. So it has a possibility of surprise and weapon retention."

Say Again? Your guy carries two pistols on the same rig and doesn't have a retention issue? See below about securing the piece.

Does the carrier draw both pistols at the initial incident that requires the use of force?

"I can't answer, don't know. I would speculate that it would be his primary and use the secondary weapon for that malfunction/reload. Just as though if he was carrying strong side."

Two pistols doesn't eliminate malfunctions, it doubles your chances of a malfunction. Better to train on clearance drills.

If the carrier only draws one pistol, what does he do when it runs dry, or has a malfunction?

"Same thing as if you were carrying it strong side, clear malfunction or draw back up secondary weapon."

It takes less time to do the mag change or clear the typical FTF than ...see below

How does he secure the piece when he goes for the second pistol?

Keeps it in his primary hand or reholsters -when you train enough things become second nature. That is why a person trains to shoot weak hand. If you train enough you can be just as good with either hand. Or (speculation) dump it and get the second gun into the fight. At some point it is a defense of life situation vs. worrying about someone else getting ahold of it."

If he keeps the piece in his hand, and draws the other, he has just reduced his effectiveness. It takes two hands to reholster a piece in a shoulder holster. At least in the ones that I own. If he throws the piece down, he's created another problem for himself - bystander has himself a new pistol, unarmed player now becomes armed (potentially) etc.

Does the carrier have extra magazines, and if so, how many?

"None, he believes that if he cannot get it done with 28 rounds he needs to get ot a rifle or shotgun...plus he has a S&W airlight in a pocket."

So for the weight of another loaded piece, he could have three extra mags - 39 rounds if loaded to capacity. Not smart. And he carries a J frame as well...that tells me something too...

"In my experience (medically retired after 15 years plus involved in 3 deadly force incidences) I never worked on the job without 2 guns. It changed from year to year as our weapon systems changed. You can give someone the "business" all you want, but trust me there are people out there who think things thru, can articulate why they do something, and train. I see alot of people who cannot do any of these three. "

OK, fair enough. Did you carry two full-sized duty weapons? I bet not. I carry two as well, a G19 and a J frame.

OTJ I carry three G17 + 2's mags, with a G19 + 2 in the piece. With one in the chamber, 76 chances to solve my problems. Would I be better served by carrying a second G19 with no spares? I don't believe so. And nobody in my life's experience ever went armed with a double concealed rig - ever. If you look at my profile, I describe myself as a second generation pistolero. It's true. My father was a LEO, a gunsmith, and an FFL dealer. He was the departmental armorer in his department way back when, and I literally grew up on a firing range. My father owned and operated the first indoor range open to civilians in the S.F. Bay Area back in the 1950's-60's.

If you were a LEO, you must be well aware of the environment in a dept. -everybody's business is grist for the mill, and guys that do things that are seen as silly get teased no end - I can only imagine what would have gone down should one of the guys shown up wearing a double concealment rig w/ two of any type of firearm.

Somebody mentioned earlier in the thread (was it you?) that they didn't understand what the term "cowboying" meant.

It has several meanings, it could be a verb or adjective, but in the case of carrying a double rig, it would be so immediately descriptive I can't imagine not understanding it.

PS - do a google for NY reload and you'll find holster makers, and some descriptions of the origin of the word, but not one mention of it being instructed as a tactic, anywhere, by anyone.

If Clint Smith isn't teaching it, it isn't worth discussing as a realistic tactic.

It may have had some utility in the day of the wheelgun, but with 100% reliable semi-auto duty weapons it is obsolete.

SCMA-1
08-13-2009, 7:43 AM
I'm all for carrying backup handguns but shooting by dual wielding is something else altogether. "Dual wielding" has been analyzed and debated ad nauseam and isn't worth even considering in a serious context, but the OP has made it fairly clear that he's looking for such a rig to do such a thing for enjoyment (see post #17).

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=205676

SCMA-1

Res
08-13-2009, 8:29 AM
andrewsleather
(http://www.andrewsleather.com/)
They also have the Firepower Rig that timeberland was talking about

I can't remember who it is, but somebody manufactures a New York Reload IWB, small of back, holster. The gun butts face opposite directions.

Almost like Castor Troy's from Face Off (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119094/)?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/ResDogDM/Forum%20Images/castor1911.jpg

ojisan
08-13-2009, 9:14 AM
Did anyone spot the dual Tommy Guns (with butt stocks removed) shoulder rig in Public Enemies?
It was in the scene at the booking room.
:gunsmilie:

Z ME FLY
08-13-2009, 10:28 AM
Did anyone spot the dual Tommy Guns (with butt stocks removed) shoulder rig in Public Enemies?
It was in the scene at the booking room.
:gunsmilie:

Yup! :)

ojisan
08-13-2009, 10:35 AM
Yup! :)

After seeing this, I'm looking for a dual shoulder rig of some kind to modify to work with my Tommy Pistol Kits.
Just for fun!

Z ME FLY
08-13-2009, 10:45 AM
Haha that would be cool :) How about dual ak pistols? That movie actually made me want to get a ak or ar pistol

gunn
08-13-2009, 10:57 AM
This thread is hillarious.
-g

B Strong
08-13-2009, 11:36 AM
I'm all for carrying backup handguns but shooting by dual wielding is something else altogether. "Dual wielding" has been analyzed and debated ad nauseam and isn't worth even considering in a serious context, but the OP has made it fairly clear that he's looking for such a rig to do such a thing for enjoyment (see post #17).

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=205676

SCMA-1

Correct.

Ed McGivern's comments aside, dual wielding is more parlor trick than working tactical technique.

Gisray
08-13-2009, 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by B Strong:



If he keeps the piece in his hand, and draws the other, he has just reduced his effectiveness. It takes two hands to reholster a piece in a shoulder holster. Not with this brand of holster....it is kydex wrapped in leather, it was chosen for the reason of being able to reholster one handed. Not a floppy old leather that has been worn and abused for 15 years. New gear goes along way...innovation is the life blood of shooting and the gear that goes with it.


So for the weight of another loaded piece, he could have three extra mags - 39 rounds if loaded to capacity. Not smart. And he carries a J frame as well...that tells me something too... It tells me that he effectively balanced his shoulder holster. It tells me that he is prepared and thinks it through. Whether or not you or I would do the same it is irrelivant. If I were to tell you his life experience and youth with the people he grew up with it far outstrips the exprienced you have listed, 'but it is not my place to speak for him or give details of his life. Look at some of the big shootings. North Hollywood rings a bell as to the futility of pistol rounds.

OK, fair enough. Did you carry two full-sized duty weapons? I bet not. I carry two as well, a G19 and a J frame. Depended upon the year, but I had times with the same type of weapon system, such as a smith 4506 and 4516 or G21 and G30...not much difference between those two?

And nobody in my life's experience ever went armed with a double concealed rig - ever. If you look at my profile, I describe myself as a second generation pistolero. It's true. My father was a LEO, a gunsmith, and an FFL dealer. He was the departmental armorer in his department way back when, and I literally grew up on a firing range. My father owned and operated the first indoor range open to civilians in the S.F. Bay Area back in the 1950's-60's. That is great and you do have alot of expeience. Does that mean that the way you were trained should be the same as for today? As society we advance, adapt, and change our tactics and weapons. I have seen training from the 50/60's with square range one handed shooting it may have been advanced for the time, but times change. If you have never seen someone with a double rig then I would say you haven't seen too much or are very myopic in the way you look at the world.

If you were a LEO, you must be well aware of the environment in a dept. -everybody's business is grist for the mill, and guys that do things that are seen as silly get teased no end - I can only imagine what would have gone down should one of the guys shown up wearing a double concealment rig w/ two of any type of firearm. Yes and no. It depends on mindset and if I care what other people think or say. As long as I take care of myself, my family, my partners, and the public all else is irrelevant. If I wanted to go back to high school and the childish antics then so be it, which is one of the problems with LE in this day and age. You either get the bullied or the bullies that neither think things through or beleive that what they were trained is the end all be all. I don't always agree with people, but what they choose is their business.

PS - do a google for NY reload and you'll find holster makers, and some descriptions of the origin of the word, but not one mention of it being instructed as a tactic, anywhere, by anyone. I beg to differ. I think it was the late Jim Cirillo who used to advocte for that and used it in his days as an NYPD cop.

If Clint Smith isn't teaching it, it isn't worth discussing as a realistic tactic. I really like Clint Smith and what he says, but there are alot of people out there that teach also. Rob Pincus, Gabe Suarez, Dave Spaulding, Mas Ayoob along with other great schools. I take what I can from all of them and use some choose not to use some, but above all I think for myself and create my own from what I have been trained on and learned.

If we are going to go with that school of thought then what would have been your response in the 50's with what Col. Jeff Cooper was doing or how about Jack Weaver. Their was a pioneer in the sense that there is a shooting stance named after a guy who was doing something totally different that the school of thought at the time.

It may have had some utility in the day of the wheelgun, but with 100% reliable semi-auto duty weapons it is obsolete. If you beleive that the semi-auto is 100% reliable I don't even know what to say. I have seen catostrophic failures of all types of guns. Not to mention the malfunctions that people don't train enough to clear and makes a weapon a paperweight.

I don't subscribe to the Ludite philosophy. There are new ways of doing things and/or trying things to see if they fit my needs. Some work for me some don't, but my mind is like a parachute...it only works if it is open!

My response is not bolded....should have done it the other way around, but whatever:)

jdberger
08-13-2009, 11:58 AM
Anyone know the maker of the rig that held 2 guns a bunch of mags and even an optional SBS or AOW shotgun?

Chevrolet?

B Strong
08-13-2009, 2:00 PM
"Not with this brand of holster....it is kydex wrapped in leather, it was chosen for the reason of being able to reholster one handed. Not a floppy old leather that has been worn and abused for 15 years. New gear goes along way...innovation is the life blood of shooting and the gear that goes with it. "

It still takes longer to holster the piece than to reload. He's also got to cross his strong and weak hands to draw/reholster, which is an open invitation to disaster (sometime, there is going to be a live gun pointed at him self...)

"It tells me that he effectively balanced his shoulder holster. It tells me that he is prepared and thinks it through. Whether or not you or I would do the same it is irrelivant. If I were to tell you his life experience and youth with the people he grew up with it far outstrips the exprienced you have listed, 'but it is not my place to speak for him or give details of his life. Look at some of the big shootings. North Hollywood rings a bell as to the futility of pistol rounds."

No, it tells me that he's at a point where he's carrying far too much equipment for any realistic tactical requirement - he isn't in SOG in Laos, he's on the street in the US, a primary, spare mags and a back-up is enough.

BTW, I didn't post my curriculum vitae.

And if pistol rounds are futile, why is your friend carrying three of 'em?

"Depended upon the year, but I had times with the same type of weapon system, such as a smith 4506 and 4516 or G21 and G30...not much difference between those two?"

You're correct - and did you carry these Smiths in a double rig, on duty or off?

"Does that mean that the way you were trained should be the same as for today? As society we advance, adapt, and change our tactics and weapons. I have seen training from the 50/60's with square range one handed shooting it may have been advanced for the time, but times change. If you have never seen someone with a double rig then I would say you haven't seen too much or are very myopic in the way you look at the world."

The way I was initially introduced to shooting as a recreational pastime is different from the training I received on smallarms as offensive and defensive weapons, and is different than the training I've received at various schools that I've attended on my own nickel.

Times indeed do change, but we move forward, not backwards. At a time when defensive carry handguns were limited to wheelguns, and even those wheelguns weren't 100% reliable (more later on that) it made sense to carry two handguns in a rig. that went out the window as time went on.

I've seen plenty of double rigs - at SASS event where they belong.

"Yes and no. It depends on mindset and if I care what other people think or say. As long as I take care of myself, my family, my partners, and the public all else is irrelevant. If I wanted to go back to high school and the childish antics then so be it, which is one of the problems with LE in this day and age. You either get the bullied or the bullies that neither think things through or beleive that what they were trained is the end all be all. I don't always agree with people, but what they choose is their business."

Guy, bullying has nothing to do with it, and if bullying went down in your department I'm sorry, and if you think I'm bullying you here, I'm not.

Let me tell you a little story, I have many more than one in this vein, but I'll keep it to this one:

I recently attended the retirement party for the CLEO in the department.

One of the officers that I know, who was not the guest of honor, was the butt of a running joke from more than one speaker about a non-injury ND he had OTJ. I had heard the story years back, and nobody has ever let him forget it

When you do things that are out of the norm, you come to the notice of others, and you're going to get the business over it, forever if they like you.

A guy wearing a concealed cowboy rig fits that defintion to a "T"

"I beg to differ. I think it was the late Jim Cirillo who used to advocte for that and used it in his days as an NYPD cop."

In the 60's and into the '70's, and NYPD was limited to the use of .38 caliber wheelguns only. I wonder what he'd think of a guy with two high-cap .45's doing it.

And didn't you make the assertion that old tactics need to be updated?

"I really like Clint Smith and what he says, but there are alot of people out there that teach also. Rob Pincus, Gabe Suarez, Dave Spaulding, Mas Ayoob along with other great schools. I take what I can from all of them and use some choose not to use some, but above all I think for myself and create my own from what I have been trained on and learned."

I've been to TR, LFI and elsewhere and at every school I've attended one common thread was to keep things simple - double rigs and double pistols and no reloads aren't simple, and make no tactical sense.

"If we are going to go with that school of thought then what would have been your response in the 50's with what Col. Jeff Cooper was doing or how about Jack Weaver. Their was a pioneer in the sense that there is a shooting stance named after a guy who was doing something totally different that the school of thought at the time."

Big difference. Those tactics work.

"If you beleive that the semi-auto is 100% reliable I don't even know what to say. I have seen catostrophic failures of all types of guns. Not to mention the malfunctions that people don't train enough to clear and makes a weapon a paperweight."

I have several handguns, including the ones that I carry, go through tens of thousands (the 19) to several thousand (G30) without failures to function. I have other pieces that have gone multiple thousands of rounds w/o failure, that I don't carry due to the value of the piece - Swenson and F. Bob Chow 1911's and Commanders, a Baer TRS, A Novak Spec Ops HP, etc, etc.

I would carry my HK Expert in .45, but it's a little on the large size - 8,000+ rounds, no failures.

I should mention that the only times I've had to use a handgun for serious purposes, I didn't experience a failure.

I have seen all sorts of problems on the firing line, I've had a Kb in a Glock 21, etc etc, and that's why I alonfg with my shooting partners train with ball/dummy drills, tap, rack, bang, etc etc.

I don't subscribe to the Ludite philosophy. There are new ways of doing things and/or trying things to see if they fit my needs. Some work for me some don't, but my mind is like a parachute...it only works if it is open!

My response is not bolded....should have done it the other way around, but whatever

Late breaking info: Fellow pistolero just got in - he has a Del Fatti double rig for the G21 - he say's it's comfortable and fun, but never uses it for serious purposes.