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JohnZ
08-08-2009, 7:13 PM
Im debating which caliber to bring as my back up weapon when I go deer hunting this year. I would either borrow my uncle's colt commander or a smith & wesson .357 mag. I like the .45 because I can do quicker follow up shots, but I think .357 would have better penetration. This is only a back up, in case I run into a black bear and I run out of bullets for my rifle (marlin 30-30).

Army GI
08-08-2009, 7:19 PM
I like the .45 ACP too, but I don't hear too much about it being used for hunting like it's older brother the 45 Colt. The 357 magnum is always talked about as a great woods caliber.

AJD
08-08-2009, 7:47 PM
If it's for a potential run in with a Black Bear, then by all means the .357 Mag loaded with a minimum of a 180gr bullet. On two legged critters, the .45 would offer better expansion and ample penetration for that scenario, but I'm not sure it has the sectional density needed to penetrate against thicker skinned, larger boned 4 legged critters. I personally would look at buffalo bore's 180gr hard cast loadings which are pretty hot. Corbon also makes a 200gr hardcast that should offer deep pentration which is what you would want on a large 4 legged creature. Or you if you reload you can pick your poison in the heavy weight bullets.

HondaMasterTech
08-08-2009, 7:49 PM
10 mm might be a good choice.

Army GI
08-08-2009, 7:51 PM
10 mm might be a good choice.

True, but that is not one of the options available to the OP.

BigDogatPlay
08-08-2009, 7:56 PM
If your potential threat is a bear go with the magnum. As heavy a bullet weight as you can find, preferably either a JSP or a solid. A .41 or .44 Mag would be a far better choice, but they apparently aren't available to you.

You can't stoke a .45 ACP hot enough to be considered as reliable bear medicine. Yes it might work, but the odds are pretty good that it won't.

JohnZ
08-08-2009, 8:01 PM
It seems the .357 would be the better choice. Are there any other ammo options besides buffalo bore that I should consider?

maschronic
08-08-2009, 8:05 PM
for deer hunting....between 357 or 45, i would go with 45 because of the follow up shot.

BigDogatPlay
08-08-2009, 8:12 PM
Winchester makes a 180 grain hunting round, (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/winchester-handgun-hunting-357-mag-180-gr-pg-20-rds.aspx?a=213738) as one alternative. It uses a partition type bullet so it will expand, not sure how it will penetrate.

You'll probably get better effect with the Buffalo Bore round. Just be sure and practice a few rounds with it before you have to count on it because it is a stiff load pushing a 180 grain pill at 125 grain velocities... 1500 fps +.

AJD
08-08-2009, 8:13 PM
It seems the .357 would be the better choice. Are there any other ammo options besides buffalo bore that I should consider?

I think federal makes a 180gr hardcast bullet as well and of course the Corbon 200gr HC(Corbon may even have a 180gr...not 100% sure). Also, I believe Grizzly ammo makes some hardcast heavyweight bullets that are loaded pretty warm. Winchester makes a 180gr partition gold HP that is pretty good, but they're very hard to find and I'm not sure I would want a HP if I was looking for all-out penetration in a Bear defense situation. It is a great deer/hog hunting bullet from what I've heard though. Good luck.

Army GI
08-08-2009, 8:19 PM
Don't forget Double Tap Ammo:

158gr 357 Mag (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=49&osCsid=3isvfhlc7h7g8dqorkukgj1823)

180gr 357 Mag (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=151&osCsid=3isvfhlc7h7g8dqorkukgj1823)

200gr 357 Mag (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=152&osCsid=3isvfhlc7h7g8dqorkukgj1823)

Rob454
08-08-2009, 8:23 PM
Wait a minute. What do you have in your hand when youre deer hunting? A dammned rifle thats what. I used to carry a 44 magnum for back up. I never had to pull it out. Youll have plenty of time if you see a bear. A rifle will drop that bear faster than anything else. There was only one time when i had to draw on a bear. This black bear and he must of had a little grizzly in him cause he had one heck of a hump and walked with that wobble grizzlys have. the closest he got to me was abtou 40 yards. My 30-06 woudl of dropped that thing before he woudl of said ROAR once.
If those are your only choices take the 357 mag but to tell you the truth i take a .45. i dont care how freaking tough the bear is i never saw a bear that can stand 7-10 .45 cal bullets.
In order for you to USE the back up gun you have to sling or drop your rifle ( well if youre french like i am you would drop it) to get to the back up gun. A bear will never surprise you ( unless youre completely day dreaming and paying absolutely no attention to anything then youre not really hunting). its not liek bears sit there waiting hiding behind a tree waiting fo ryou to walk by so they can jump out and say Boo. All the times ive been hunting i think i only saw 5 bears. And this was in bear country. They mostly run away when they hear you coming anyway. bears usually liek most animals want nothing to do with humans
Rob

B Strong
08-08-2009, 8:25 PM
Between the two, for a dangerous animal piece, the .357 hands down.

Buffalo Bore carries heavy .357 rounds, and if you don't reload, I recommend them 100%.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=20


Im debating which caliber to bring as my back up weapon when I go deer hunting this year. I would either borrow my uncle's colt commander or a smith & wesson .357 mag. I like the .45 because I can do quicker follow up shots, but I think .357 would have better penetration. This is only a back up, in case I run into a black bear and I run out of bullets for my rifle (marlin 30-30).

tankerman
08-08-2009, 8:38 PM
10 mm might be a good choice.

What's the point of your comment? 41mag, 44mag, 454, 460, 480, 500 etc... they're all as good and most are better than 10mm....this thread is not about 10mm.

nosmatt
08-08-2009, 8:46 PM
lol

black bears are sissies. you will never have to shoot a black bear, unless you are in Yosemite, and have a pack of bologna wrapped around your neck.


for black bears, your side arm needs to be a low, quiet "hey, go away!" and he/she will run like hell.

JohnZ
08-08-2009, 11:18 PM
Sequoia is full of black bears, especially the zone where I hunt.

ScottB
08-09-2009, 10:02 AM
Sequoia is full of black bears, especially the zone where I hunt.

And how many hunters have been attacked over the years? nosmatt is correct. I have encountered many bears in the Sierras over the years and have never felt in danger. I carry enough crap when I'm hunting. My rifle is enough firepower. I think I would be a lot more concerned about grizzlies, but they don't live here.

To your question, for critters, a .357 for power, penetration and bullet/load availability. That's what I carry when not hunting, cause you never know. A .44 would be a notch better but not necessary.

IMO, a .45 or any tactical semi is for two-legged threats, but I don't typically hike or hunt in places where I am worried about them.

locosway
08-09-2009, 10:54 AM
What's the point of your comment? 41mag, 44mag, 454, 460, 480, 500 etc... they're all as good and most are better than 10mm....this thread is not about 10mm.

All of those come in an autoloader?

I'd go 10mm too, but it's not on your list of choices.

While I do like the .45, I think I would have to go with a .357 when it comes to wild animals. Even if you don't hit the damn thing, maybe the muzzle blast will scare it away.. :)

B Strong
08-09-2009, 11:06 AM
You're correct in theory, but it's never a good policy to trust your fate to the kindness of strangers, four or two legged.

lol

black bears are sissies. you will never have to shoot a black bear, unless you are in Yosemite, and have a pack of bologna wrapped around your neck.


for black bears, your side arm needs to be a low, quiet "hey, go away!" and he/she will run like hell.

tankerman
08-09-2009, 11:33 AM
He doesn't had a 10mm or a revolver, which was the point of my comment.

I think that folks with little, or no hunting experience tend to gravitate towards autoloaders when talking about hunting.
All of those come in an autoloader?

locosway
08-09-2009, 12:08 PM
He doesn't had a 10mm or a revolver, which was the point of my comment.

I think that folks with little, or no hunting experience tend to gravitate towards autoloaders when talking about hunting.

We aren't talking hunting, we're talking backup. If for some reason you need to pull a backup pistol on your hunting trip then you have some pretty big problems. Having the ability to unload 10+ rounds downrange and then reload in a second is a huge bonus. That's were my autoloader comment came from.

With that aside I'd go with the larger round in the revolver over a .45. If you have an animal charging you and you hit it in the head with a .45 chances are it may not do much. Even some rifle rounds have been known to just glance off.

tankerman
08-09-2009, 12:36 PM
Back up while hunting is a back up to your primary hunting firearm. Hence the name 'back-up', as in your back-up is available should your primary gun fail.

1JimMarch
08-09-2009, 2:01 PM
You want a hardcast of 160gr or more loaded as hot as you can get 'em. Buffalo Bore's 180 is THE best but it's followed closely by loads from Doubletap and Grizzly Ammo.

LAKA90034
08-09-2009, 5:58 PM
.357 with the heaviest bullet you can get...

Rob454
08-29-2009, 9:33 PM
not to be snarky but if you are wrestling on the ground with a bear those autloaders can fail not going into battery, that is why I like the revolvers for backup. The better backup is the pepper spray, I do carry both though and when hiking and tripping over bear scat I have the spray in hand ready to spray.


WTF are you wrestling with a bear for? IF you're really out hunting you're gonna be (well you should be) aware of your surroundings. if a freaking smelly groaning bear is gonna get the drop on you then maybe you shouldn't be out hunting. Ive been hunting since I was 10 years old or so and i NEVER had a bear charge or get the drop on me. One got close when i was in Montana a few years back but other than that I never had a bear get more than 40 yards away and I knew he was there he knew where i was and he went his way and i went mine.
A pistol is a back up. You should be shooting a threat with the MOST powerful gun you have which would be your Deer rifle ( another argument/reason to carry a real rifle and not a 223 when going out for deer in bear country Sorry AR guys but a 223 you might as well be throwing bbs at the freaking thing)
Anyway when your PRIMARY weapon runs dry then you go for the back up
piece. ( unless you can freaking reload FAST. At that point I dont care if its a 357 44 45 40 10 9 .22 caliber. Most hunters that get injured by bears is due to the fact they did something wrong. That could be anything from both human and bear hunting same prey, to a hungry *** bear going after a human who looked defenseless ( bow hunter) and a easy meal.
Not saying that a bear cant get close enough but it shoudl never be able to surprise you. You as a human are supposed to be the smarter animal

yoteassasin
08-30-2009, 6:48 AM
ive used both and i prefer a wheel gun. ive killed my share of pigs with both 45 and 357 and they both drop them like a stone but against a bear i trust a hard cast 357 loaded to 1300 fps over my 45 hunting load a 255 moving 900 fps
............HA why is everybody scared of a little black bear i have never seen one act aggressively unless you are between it and cubs or it is wounded so be smart and shoot straight and FYI mr ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ive seen more than one kodiak griz take its last breath from an ar In 223

yoteassasin
08-30-2009, 6:56 AM
oh Gawd so many LIES do not handgun hunt any thing you belive can become dangerous with a HP. THEY FAIL miserably on hair, thick skin, and bone so if you dont hit any of those i guess you will be fine

Argonaut
08-30-2009, 7:07 AM
Handguns are ineffective and a last resort weapon.......But if you "have" to shoot one (Fiction) he will be close.....45 would be my choice over a high speed 36........If you "have" to shoot one at 50 yards the 36 high speed would be better. We sometimes would use a handgun for a finishing shot but they are mostly extra weight. I knew a guy that got playing with his (handgun) on a deer stand and shot himself in the thigh instead of watching for game...........

yoteassasin
08-30-2009, 7:17 AM
I think that folks with little, or no hunting experience tend to gravitate towards autoloaders when talking about hunting.
they both work but some times an auto is a PITA to deal with and you have way less powerful options


With that aside I'd go with the larger round in the revolver over a .45. If you have an animal charging you and you hit it in the head with a .45 chances are it may not do much. Even some rifle rounds have been known to just glance off. BULLETs DONT GLANCE OFF ANIMALS. LEARN HOW TO SHOOT STRAIGHT:90:

Handguns are ineffective and a last resort weapon.......But if you "have" to shoot one (Fiction) he will be close.....45 would be my choice over a high speed 36........If you "have" to shoot one at 50 yards the 36 high speed would be better. We sometimes would use a handgun for a finishing shot but they are mostly extra weight. I knew a guy that got playing with his (handgun) on a deer stand and shot himself in the thigh instead of watching for game...........
WHAT THE HELL IS A .36:banghead:

Argonaut
08-30-2009, 7:24 AM
357 mag is a 36.....The only reason that a 38 special was called a 38....(also a 36) is because 36's had such a bad reputation as a combat weapon in the Black powder revolvers they sold better calling them a 38. A lot of what we do is about marketing.

locosway
08-30-2009, 7:25 AM
BULLETs DONT GLANCE OFF ANIMALS. LEARN HOW TO SHOOT STRAIGHT:90:


I was talking about a backup gun, so if you'd like to take my words out of their context, then so be it.

However, if there is an animal running towards you (which does and can happen) and you're shooting at it's head since that's what you see, there are some decent chances that some of your rounds will glance off the hard skull, especially with a handgun round.

Don't believe me? Then perhaps you're the one who should learn to shoot. Also, windows and windshields are the same way. When shooting into a car through a window there's a chance that the bullets trajectory could be changed from the angle of the window.

Argonaut
08-30-2009, 7:37 AM
My grandfather (a real Montana Cowboy) used to tell the story about some "silly easterner" that worked with him for a while doing construction on the railroad. They would shoot camp meat for the cook sometimes. This guy had a Colt M1903 Pocket 32 that he thought was wonderful (they are wonderful for there intended use).....Well, they were out one day picking huckleberries for the cook, there was a bear that liked the huckleberries too...(a common theme in our family folklore) so this guy goes to shooting at this bear with the 32 (from some distance).....Grandpa could see little tufts puffing off the bears skull, The bear stood up and acted like he was swatting bees but unaffected otherwise......My Grandfather told him " You had better stop shooting that bear, you are making him mad" Lots of good easterner and Californian stories in my family, Like the time We were elk hunting and this guy came up and asked us for help with the cow elk that he had killed down in the meadow. We went down and there was a shod (as in steel horse shoes) mule dressed and ready for quarting.......(1968 Northern Idaho)

locosway
08-30-2009, 7:43 AM
Yeah, a lot of people forget that animals aren't human. They have different instincts and usually never have a will to give up. They also have thicker skin, fur, and skulls (usually). Yes, a well places shot can stop the heart or severe the spine. However, there's always the chance that you could get the raw end of the deal.

yoteassasin
08-30-2009, 8:16 AM
it did not penatrate the hard skull it did NOT glance off

locosway
08-30-2009, 8:18 AM
it did not penatrate the hard skull it did NOT glance off

In his story perhaps.

Since you're just a strong believer that a bullet goes where you want...

"If a boar holds his head very high, the skull gives you an extremely shallow angle than even the biggest African calibers will glance off of."

http://www.fieldandstream.com/answers/hunting/big-game/where-hunt-big-game/wild-boars-skull-thick-enough-ricochet-bullet-because-i

AJD
08-30-2009, 8:38 AM
The reason for using a .357 magnum over a .45ACP for a possible run in with a large animal, is simple. Penetration. Setting aside, glancing blows for a moment, the Magnum loaded with 180gr bullets and higher has a much higher sectional density and will penetrate larger game animals much better than a .45ACP. I believe that if you had a glancing head shot with a .357mag and it did not penetrate, you would most defenitely have the same result with the .45. In fact I personally know someone who shot a boar at close range several times with a .45ACP and not one of the shots penetrated the skull. Now personally for the scenario the OP asked about, I would chose a .44 magnum, but he specified 2 calibers, .357 mag or .45ACP.

Rob454
08-30-2009, 8:52 AM
t and FYI mr ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ive seen more than one kodiak griz take its last breath from an ar In 223

yeah dude i know that but I bet that was from a position that you had time to aim and shoot and drop it. I've seen bears die from a .22 or a right bow arrow shot if you shoot them in the right spot. I still say if you can carry a BIGGER heavier hitting caliber than a 223 that would be my choice.
I'm talking about a Holy crap here he comes charging at you sort of scenario which seems to be the scenario everyone is using. At that point a 223 would NOT be my first choice in rifles to hold in my hand. EVEN if you shoot it a bunch of times ( and how many times do you think you can shoot it when its charging you. Remember bears can run as fast or faster than horses MOST people have no F'ing idea how fast a bear runs. i had one running across a meadow and I was on a dirt road doing about 20 MPH he was running at a angle but was outpacing me) its still gonna have time to come over and rip your face off. Again we go back to the bear getting the drop on you

if youre so worried about getting charged by a bear ( which most 99.% black bears will run away) then carry the biggest gun you can afford to carry. IF I was worried about bears i would carry something in a .44 magnum or higher. I had a .44 mag that I carried but I never had to use it so I stopped carrying it.

dexter9659
08-30-2009, 11:42 AM
.357 all the way. Should you run into a malicious bear, you will find they have very thick skin and bones. A nice 200gr bullet going 1300 ft/sec is dynamite.

Argonaut
08-30-2009, 1:49 PM
Do you guys remember the story of the original Hawken mountain man rifles? When they first went into the western wilderness they carried long Kentucky type small bore rifles (32-36 cal) that had served the Eastern settlers well......The mountain men were getting eaten by bear after they were shot. Then this german Gunsmith named Hawken set up a shop in St Louis where he built short barrel 50-58 caliber rifles that worked. These rifles became standard issue for western pioneers before metallic cartridges. Even the later Buffalo rifles had a large bore. I know that we drive bullets faster and there is some shock value related to high speed projectiles ( Roy Weatherby) but there is little that makes up for mass. The old guys with there black powder rifles would shoot evenly with the new cartridge weapons whenever they were compared and there was little difference in energy or velocity as well. They KILLED buffalo at 1000 yards with 58 cal Black powder or 50-110 cartridges equally......No one would try to defend himself with a small bore weapon from a large predator. In Africa many countries experimented with allowing elephant hunting with the new small bore high velocity rifles only to declare after a few maulings that a minimum 45 caliber has to be used. In practical close in self defense shooting there is little replacement for displacement as one of the other posters says. World wide 12 Ga slugs are very popular with guides that have to be ready for back up deffensive shooting.......These guys also know what works the best.

locosway
08-30-2009, 2:52 PM
Do you guys remember the story of the original Hawken mountain man rifles? When they first went into the western wilderness they carried long Kentucky type small bore rifles (32-36 cal) that had served the Eastern settlers well......The mountain men were getting eaten by bear after they were shot. Then this german Gunsmith named Hawken set up a shop in St Louis where he built short barrel 50-58 caliber rifles that worked. These rifles became standard issue for western pioneers before metallic cartridges. Even the later Buffalo rifles had a large bore. I know that we drive bullets faster and there is some shock value related to high speed projectiles ( Roy Weatherby) but there is little that makes up for mass. The old guys with there black powder rifles would shoot evenly with the new cartridge weapons whenever they were compared and there was little difference in energy or velocity as well. They KILLED buffalo at 1000 yards with 58 cal Black powder or 50-110 cartridges equally......No one would try to defend himself with a small bore weapon from a large predator. In Africa many countries experimented with allowing elephant hunting with the new small bore high velocity rifles only to declare after a few maulings that a minimum 45 caliber has to be used. In practical close in self defense shooting there is little replacement for displacement as one of the other posters says. World wide 12 Ga slugs are very popular with guides that have to be ready for back up deffensive shooting.......These guys also know what works the best.


That's a good story, and while I generally like the bigger caliber rounds, I'd still have to side with the .357. First off, it's a magnum round with more energy than the .45. Secondly, the .45 may not penetrate sufficiently to stop a large animal (remember, bears are hundreds of pounds, not a hundred pounds).

Muzzleloaders pushing a .50 or .60 caliber round have a lit of energy. I haven't seen any papers on comparisons, but I'd argue more so than a .45 or .357.

AJD
08-30-2009, 3:18 PM
I agree that a larger diameter bullet like .45 would actually be better than a .357, but not with ACP after it. If it can't penetrate well through a tougher game animal then there's no point in using it, no matter the diameter of the bullet. That's the point. A .44 mag or a .45 Colt loaded warm, would be much better choices for penetration than .45ACP. They would also put a bigger hole into the animal, while offering the same penetration if not more as the .357. But again those were not the choices by the OP.

ST5MF
08-30-2009, 3:29 PM
Im debating which caliber to bring as my back up weapon when I go deer hunting this year. I would either borrow my uncle's colt commander or a smith & wesson .357 mag. I like the .45 because I can do quicker follow up shots, but I think .357 would have better penetration. This is only a back up, in case I run into a black bear and I run out of bullets for my rifle (marlin 30-30).

I think the .45 in a 1911 is optimum for homosapiens.

The SW in .357Mag would be a better choice for the scenario you present.

If you get attacked by a bear you probably won't have time to do a reload with a 1911 anyway.

If I had a choice I think a .44MAG or larger Magnum Load would suit the scenario the best. But given the criteria of the OP .357MAG out of a wheel gun gets my vote.

locosway
08-30-2009, 3:30 PM
This thread makes me want to get a nice .44Mag for those special outings into the wild... Although I guess my 10mm would be sufficient.

erskatedoc
08-30-2009, 3:31 PM
I always learn so much from all the collective wisdom.

Argonaut
08-30-2009, 5:06 PM
I do prefer my 629 but that was not the point of the question. I drive a 185 Gr JHP @ 1200 fps with mt 45ACP for social work......at close range it is vicious.......and equal or more powerful than most 45LC ammunition. When I was working on loads with ballistic jell in the old days it was about the only bullet that gave much expansion. There are a lot of new bullets now and I am sure that there are superior designs. This thread is about a self defense caliber, not a hunting caliber. I am sure that I have shot bears (finishing shot) with this round but can't remember exactly. But that round develops 591 Ft Lbs of energy.....That is equal or more energy than most 357 mag amo......Have you guys ever heard of Elmer Keith or Jeff Cooper? They discussed these ideas in depth and frequently.........My 45ACP loads penetrated the old flak vests and a body size gelatin with ease at 20' (Flak vests were not really bullet proof in design) and the second round would always fatally penetrate the standard laminated bullet proof glass.

locosway
08-30-2009, 5:15 PM
Yeah, I've heard of Jeff Cooper. It was his design and specs that Norma used to make the 10mm out of because the .45 couldn't do the job. :)

Argonaut
08-30-2009, 5:18 PM
No....because the 357 couldn't do its job.........He didn't like high speed 36 cal bullets either

locosway
08-30-2009, 5:20 PM
I don't think I've ever seen Jeff Cooper without a 1911, and he did speak of the problems that all modern day cartridges had. This was his basis for making the 10mm, along with many other reasons.

yoteassasin
08-30-2009, 5:21 PM
i have read many bear hunting books that have cautioned against ever hunting bear, even black bear with a 45 lc im just stirring the pot with this, but until you have been there, it is a whole different story. i hunt with a 45 lc loaded to +p in my 45 redhawk and have dropped eveything i shot at be it a buck at 30 yards, a pig at 10 or a bear in a tree 45acp is GREAT but i trust 357 much more and any handgun hunter worth his salt will tell you "hard cast lead only"
im not trying "to know it all" i just know this and i am not discounting a 10mm i would love to have a 1911 in 10mm but i don't think also the 10mm to 41 mag comparison is very accurate, in a revolver yes. In a semi no

AJD
08-30-2009, 5:32 PM
This thread is about a self defense caliber, not a hunting caliber.

The original post:

Im debating which caliber to bring as my back up weapon when I go deer hunting this year. I would either borrow my uncle's colt commander or a smith & wesson .357 mag. I like the .45 because I can do quicker follow up shots, but I think .357 would have better penetration. This is only a back up, in case I run into a black bear and I run out of bullets for my rifle (marlin 30-30).

People fail to realize that more energy is not everything. And when it comes to penetration sectional density plays a much more important role. What bullet do think an Elk Hunter would use in 30-06? A lighter bullet around 150gr that develops more energy or a heavier 220gr bullet that might develop less? A 185gr .45 ACP bullet is not going to have even close to the sectional density as a heavyweight .357 mag bullet and as a reslut in won't have near the ability to penetrate a tough game animal no matter how fast it is going.

Argonaut
08-30-2009, 5:43 PM
I would agree if we are shooting @ 50 yards hunting game (be it bear, deer or whatever).....but at 10' knocking down a bad bear when you have to...That is the kind of shooting the 45 was designed for. Sectional density assists in retaining velocity (and energy) down range. The 12 gauge slug that is so heavily relied on in dangerous game areas does not have a great sectional density but at close range no one questions it's effectiveness...............I shot an 8 gauge double rifle one time that was designed as a backup to safari hunters with African game. It shot a huge round ball loaded into a brass cartridge case. It was like being hit by a truck on both ends.

AJD
08-30-2009, 5:47 PM
A .45 isn't going to knock a bear down. :rolleyes: And sectional density has MUCH more to do than just maintaining velocity at long range. It is one of the most important factors in penetration, no matter what the range.

locosway
08-30-2009, 5:53 PM
The original post:



People fail to realize that more energy is not everything. And when it comes to penetration sectional density plays a much more important role. What bullet do think an Elk Hunter would use in 30-06? A lighter bullet around 150gr that develops more energy or a heavier 220gr bullet that might develop less? A 185gr .45 ACP bullet is not going to have even close to the sectional density as a heavyweight .357 mag bullet and as a reslut in won't have near the ability to penetrate a tough game animal no matter how fast it is going.

So you're saying a metal object, that is quite dense, the size of nearly 1/2", no matter the speed, would never be able to penetrate the skin of an animal?

AJD
08-30-2009, 5:55 PM
So you're saying a metal object, that is quite dense, the size of nearly 1/2", no matter the speed, would never be able to penetrate the skin of an animal?

Where did I say that?????? Penetrating enough, is a different story...

locosway
08-30-2009, 5:55 PM
but at 10' knocking down a bad bear when you have to...That is the kind of shooting the 45 was designed for.

.45 was designed for human targets, and while I do like the round, it wouldn't be my choice if I was dropped off in Alaska. I'd feel much better with any of the .30 caliber and up magnum rounds. A charging bear or other animal gives you a very small area to shoot, usually the head. A .45 may have a hard time penetrating the skull of a moving animal head on.

locosway
08-30-2009, 5:56 PM
Where did I say that?????? Penetrating enough, is a different story...

It's the same story. Penetration is directly relational to speed or velocity. Mass is the other contributor, but not as important as velocity.

AJD
08-30-2009, 6:03 PM
Then why oh why do hunters use heavier bullets (that go slower) as they hunt bigger game animals? For example 30-06/.308 150gr for deer sized game and 180gr and heavier for larger game like Elk. Sectional density has a much more important role than you realize. Velocity and mass do matter, but SD is very important.

tankerman
08-30-2009, 6:07 PM
It's the same story. Penetration is directly relational to speed or velocity. Mass is the other contributor, but not as important as velocity.

Holy cow, the BS is getting thick.....very very thick.

locosway
08-30-2009, 6:13 PM
You can't equate a round that's coming out of a ~20" barrel against a 4" or 5" backup gun.

What they're looking for in those rounds is a fast bullet that can hit either the shoulder or the heart and pass through. The idea is either stop the heart, or cripple the animal so it can't get too far. Bleeding out is usually the reason for death when hunting large game.

When it comes to handguns, you really need something in the larger magnum classes to lay out an animal confidently. Sure, you may get lucky with a .45, but who wants to play the odds?

I'm sitting here next to my grandpa and I asked him about this thread. He told me about a time he was hunting Elk. He said he had a 30-06 lever action and had fallen asleep with his friend in the woods. Well, he heard something and there was an Elk. It heard him and started to charge down the path. He got a shot off and it glanced off the head. Another shot and the Elk hell to it's knees and slid a while. It turns out the second shot hit the skull, traveled under the skin, and hit the spinal cord. The Elk was still breathing so his friend took his .357 Magnum and put 6 rounds into the Elks head. The Elk was still looking at them and breathing heavily.

So, maybe this was just a fluke, but I don't think it is because a lot of others have either seen or heard of similar accounts.

Ideally you would have a .44Magnum or larger (if you can handle follow-up shots). Even my 10mm is questionable for successfully downing a charging animal which is really what your backup gun is for.

locosway
08-30-2009, 6:14 PM
Holy cow, the BS is getting thick.....very very thick.

For only penetration, no, it's correct.

I wouldn't say that it's ideal to use a small and fast round, but you will see good penetration as long as there is enough mass to continue the inertia through the encountered resistance.

Argonaut
08-30-2009, 6:15 PM
I can see how many bears are shot in LA county!!!!

AJD
08-30-2009, 6:15 PM
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number1/toc.htm

Sectional density is a bullet's weight in pounds divided by the square of its diameter in inches. It plays an important role in bullet penetration. Bullets with greater sectional density tend to penetrate deeper.

locosway
08-30-2009, 7:29 PM
Sectional density comes into play with similar velocities. It's obvious that a .45 moving at 100fps will have less penetration over a .45 moving at 1200fps. This is what I'm talking about.

The .357 is moving at almost twice the speed of the .45.

forgiven
08-30-2009, 9:30 PM
.357

tankerman
08-30-2009, 9:44 PM
For only penetration, no, it's correct.

I wouldn't say that it's ideal to use a small and fast round, but you will see good penetration as long as there is enough mass to continue the inertia through the encountered resistance.

I put one of my 520 grain 45-70 loads traveling in the neighborhood of 1500-1600 fps against one of your small, fast high velocity rounds on a bear or hog, it doesn't matter the range.

locosway
08-30-2009, 9:48 PM
You're taking what I said out of context. Yes, a large and fast round will penetrate fine.

I was responding to someone else who said a .45 would not penetrate the skin of a game animal no matter it's speed, which I protested.

AJD
08-31-2009, 7:44 AM
You're taking what I said out of context. Yes, a large and fast round will penetrate fine.

I was responding to someone else who said a .45 would not penetrate the skin of a game animal no matter it's speed, which I protested.

Speaking of taking things out of context, or better put flat out distorting what I posted...

A 185gr .45 ACP bullet is not going to have even close to the sectional density as a heavyweight .357 mag bullet and as a reslut in won't have near the ability to penetrate a tough game animal no matter how fast it is going.

Where does that say it won't even penetrate skin?

Penetration is directly relational to speed or velocity. Mass is the other contributor, but not as important as velocity.

Btw, do you have any reference to back that quote up? Because if you can find something, that would mean every bullet maker and ammo manufacturer is wrong when they offer the heavier bullets, with more sectional density, for more penetration even though they are going slower in the same caliber. This is actually pretty common knowlege. I can guarantee you 100% that if you called every bullet manufacturer they would tell you the same thing. Here's a quote from sierra on sectional density:

Sectional Density: A bullets weight, in pounds, divided by its diameter in inches squared. High sectional density is essential to producing a good ballistic coeficient and deep penetration.

Also as an example here's what Sierra recommends as the best pentrating bullet choice in .44 magnum even though it is moving slower than the lighter bullets. "the massive 300gr JSP offers deep, reliable penetration on even the toughest game animals." You can also look at what manufactures offer as hunting bullets for calibers in .357mag and .44 mag. I wonder why Fed, and Winchester market the slower velocity 180gr cast and 180gr PG as their hunting ammo in that caliber? I also wonder why a 9mm 147gr HP penetrates even more than a 124gr +p HP of the same manufacturer even though it is going slower.

locosway
08-31-2009, 7:48 AM
This lead me down an interesting road last night. I came up with something, perhaps it's useful to everyone...

http://gryman.com

jazman
08-31-2009, 11:55 AM
I go with the wheel gun in .357...if the auto jams it makes all the talk of caliber moot.

vta
08-31-2009, 12:32 PM
agree on the 357 wheel gun. you dont need the capacity of an autoloader since elks dont shoot back. reliability is king in this case.

RAMCHARGER
08-31-2009, 3:36 PM
I pulled the bolt back and only the back end of the 30/06 shell came out. The rest of the case was stuck in the chamber and would not come out no matter what MCGuiver tricks I tried.
So I hiked back. Then it started getting foggy. I kinda got lost. I finally got my bearings again and it was now really foggy. I had no workin rifle. I could hear things following me. Hungry thing with claws and teeth.

Argonaut
08-31-2009, 3:59 PM
You guys watch too much TV..........The number of people attacked or hurt by wild animals in the lower 48 is less than the number of people that fall off a cliff..........so, Don't forget your maglite !!!! One of my logger great uncles in Northern Idaho killed his last elk out of the truck, braced on the mirror at 25 yards with his 6" model 19 357......of course he was close and he knew where the bullet was going. It was a big cow that never left the road we went up with a service truck with a crane to bring her home. I remember my grandmother shooing bears off the back porch of the camp cookhouse with a broom at night. She was born in Rural northern Idaho and had lived near bears for probably 50 years by then. 357 is a better hunting round but 45 is a better self defense round....from anything. As a young kid that same great uncle had a big bearskin rug on his bed and a photo of the same bear in my great grandmothers plum tree.....before he was shot with a 30-30. I prefer wheel guns for hunting as well.....That is why my first handgun was a M1917 Colt in 45ACP and my second was a T/C Contender in 357 for shooting ground squirrels. Off course that was 40 years ago now....Maby the bears have gotten bigger and meaner?

locosway
08-31-2009, 6:06 PM
If I'm hunting/camping/hiking I'm more worried about the 2 legged vermin than wild animals.

CalNRA
08-31-2009, 11:41 PM
I can see how many bears are shot in LA county!!!!

:rofl:

I'm gonna stir the pot here and say carry a 357 sig so you can have the ballistics of a 357 Mag with 10 round capacity of an auto-loader.

:popcorn:




(warning: do not take the last line seriously and start a debate on 357 sig versus ______, it was merely a joke)

maxicon
09-01-2009, 9:46 AM
I have an amusing story about .45 ballistics. You can believe it or not, but it happened to me.

I was visiting family in Arizona, and we were out shooting in the desert with a bunch of thrift store targets - books, pots and pans, and a big stuffed bear, maybe 3' tall, and fat like a typical stuffed bear is. We had an assortment of guns, including my 1911 and a couple of .357s.

The stuffed bear was propped against some scrub bushes, mostly leafless. As I was shooting the 1911 (with WWB 100 round .45 FMJ value packs), I noticed tufts of stuffing getting caught in the bushes 5-10' behind it.

Come clean-up time, I was gathering up the bits and pieces, and went to pull the stuffing out of the bushes, and found that 2 of them still had .45 bullets suspended in them. The bullets were pretty close to pristine - just rifling marks.

The stuffing was very long fiber stuff, and apparently had slowed down the .45 rounds as they pulled it out of the bear that they lost enough velocity to get hung up in the bushes.

I kept one of them, and still have it in a bag with the stuffing it was hung in somewhere in the curio stash.

The .357 didn't do this, or at least I didn't find any tufts with .357 (or .38) bullets in them. Some of the .357 hollowpoints did get plugged up with paper from the books, preventing them from expanding, but not all of them did.

locosway
09-01-2009, 11:24 AM
if you want to get real technical about this some branch Alaska forest service
took a bunch of grizzly bear skulls out and shot them with different firearms,
the lighter faster bullets bounced off it took some big heavy hardcast bullets going at non magnum speeds to blast the skulls FWIW.

I believe it. My preferred carry item in bear country would likely be .44 Magnum with 300gr bullets.

If that wasn't an option (since I don't own one) it would be my 10mm with the largest grain bullets I can find.