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View Full Version : Heads-up - Cal legal Yugo 59/66 transfer problem in So Cal


toolman9000
06-23-2005, 1:28 PM
Today I met a fellow calguns.net member for a PPT of my Yugo 59/66 that I got at Turner's early last year(you know the one's they have had for a few years now with that muzzle break welded on the barrel) - The chosen FFL for this transfer was Sharpshooter in Torrance, it worked because of the close location for both of us.

I have never been there before... walked in the door at 11am when they opened to do the Transfer and everything was going fine, then the manager/owner/head-dude started eyeballing the rifle had a questioning look on his face, I thought that he was mistaking the welded muzzle break for a big no-no grenade launcher.

I spoke up and said "That's a California legal muzzle break that has been welded on", "Got the rifle at Turner's last year".

I got a quick, "Don't tell me how to run my business" as a response. Then he further stated that the bayonet was not legal and for 10 bucks it was not worth doing the transfer.

Since he was instantly upset over this rifle and refused to transfer it, I immediately packed up the rifle and left.

I know that this is a legal transfer and to be confronted with so much attitude - so quickly, I was suprised and somewhat shocked.

We went to Turner's in the South Bay and did the transfer with no problems and they even had two Yugo 59/66 SKS's in stock and on sale this week.

I just wanted to give a heads-up, I have never had a experience like today at any firearm retailer in California.

So, just a heads-up

-toolman9000

Turbinator
06-23-2005, 1:37 PM
Weird. Just goes to show you that people don't know the laws.

I was doing a PPT up here in NoCal and the guy behind the counter insisted that I needed a receipt or invoice for my GUN SAFE else he would accept my CA approved lock without a receipt to satisfy the legal requirements.

I was thinking, "What!?" But hey, who was I to complain if he would accept the freebie Project Childsafe lock that I had brought in without a receipt?

Of course, when I went to do the pickup, they asked for a receipt for the freebie lock, which naturally I didn't have. Fortunately they had changed their tune and allowed the gun safe affidavit without an invoice - all you have to do is sign the portion that states you are telling the truth about the safe ownership and that you don't have a receipt for it.

I tell ya...

Turby

stillbigmac
06-23-2005, 7:19 PM
That project childsafe lock isn't on the CA approved list of locking devices.

My doj auditor warned me about it a couple of months ago.

Ratters
06-23-2005, 10:19 PM
I've always done the safe affidavit without a problem at probably seven different gun shops.

jmlivingston
06-24-2005, 5:50 AM
What's frustrating is that by law he's required to do the transfer since it's a legal firearm. You would think anyone running a gun store in California would have at least enough brains to know and understand what is/isn't legal here - we are way to litigous a society and the liberals so anti-gun-we-wanna-take-them-from-you that I just have to wonder how ignorant gun businesses keep from getting shutdown.

The really frustrating part? A dumb@$$ like this needs to be shutdown, and normally I'd say that this guy should be reported to the DoJ but with the rapidly dwindling number of FFL's in SoCal you just don't dare do it...

John

Turbinator
06-24-2005, 9:53 AM
Originally posted by stillbigbac:
That project childsafe lock isn't on the CA approved list of locking devices.

My doj auditor warned me about it a couple of months ago.

Really? Target Masters has a list with the lock shown on the list. I saw it myself - unless their list is bogus.

Turby

toolman9000
06-24-2005, 10:16 AM
... normally I'd say that this guy should be reported to the DoJ but with the rapidly dwindling number of FFL's in SoCal you just don't dare do it...

John

That's was my thought exactly, so my only recourse was to let everyone here know of my experience.

berg
06-24-2005, 12:18 PM
I hate to say it but Toolman's case is not surprising to me at all. Gunshop owners are the LAST people I go to for gun law advice. It's sad but true. I've heard so many weird statements by some of these guys about what is allowed and not.

And the rudeness is to be expected. There are only 2 shops (in the Bay Area) that I am aware of that do not treat people poorly. One is in Fremont http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jmlivingston
06-24-2005, 1:05 PM
It's not the "Gun Law Advice" that is so worrisome, but rather such an incomprehension of the law that they can not even conduct their own business well within those laws that bothers me.

Top that with the attitude of "for 10 bucks it was not worth doing the transfer" and you have to wonder how he ever expects to keep his business afloat. Business must be doing well that he can pick and choose his customers...

PJA
06-24-2005, 1:12 PM
Berg--Where is the other one?
Pete

foogoo
06-24-2005, 7:21 PM
I called Lock Stock n' Barrel in Temple City a few months ago about ordering an SKS. They had some questions as to whether it was legal or not. They weren't rude but I don't go there anymore. It doesn't make sense to have a gun store owner who doesn't know the rules of their own business.

Turbinator
06-24-2005, 10:54 PM
Originally posted by PJ:
Berg--Where is the other one?
Pete

I'm going to guess that it's Dmitiry?

Turby

eviioiive
06-25-2005, 12:53 AM
I pretty sure i dealt with the same guy as toolman and yes he( the worker) is a huge ***. im surprized he did a transfer on the fab i sold...after calling it a pos....

jon.ocab@gmail.com
06-26-2005, 4:57 PM
$20 says the guy knew it is a legal rifle. He just used it as an excuse so he didn't have to draw up the paperwork for the PPT.

stillbigmac
06-27-2005, 6:50 AM
Actually, as an FFL I am supposed to pick and choose my customers. The civil courts make it so I have no choice but to do just that.

If a group of young and or old guys and or gals come into Irvington Arms looking like gang members, talking like gang members and holding handguns sideways, I will NOT sell them anything. I've seen all kinds and nOOOOO dang way would I sell some of the nutcases I've seen a firearm.

Yup, just a couple of months ago the DOJ gave me the microscope and informed me I could not accept a project childsafe lock as an acceptable locking device. There is at least one problem I know you can have with it.. no reciept. I will look through the list of approved devices again sometime this week to see if I can find it. Even if it's on the list, if you don't have a reciept to prove you "purchased" it within the last 30 days were not allowed to accept it.

Most of you know I am an FFL... I am always amazed at the people that assume I am some kind of lawer. I get asked about divorce, past convictions domestic trouble and all sorts of crap I dont care to hear about. I should be qualified to tend bar..

The part thats beginning to bug me the most is all the questions about evading the law. HELLO I'm there to help people comply with the law, not break it!

You wonder why FFLS all seem to be nuts... conflicting directions.. an example would be.. Tax law says I'm not supposed to tax services or fees but the same people gave me instructions to charge sales tax on DROS.
DOJ says dont charge it.. Frachise says collect it (against their own directions) so what the heck do you do?

I feel much better now.

bwiese
06-27-2005, 8:35 AM
Hi BigMac...

(BTW: those Yugo SKSs are __nice__. ;-)

Originally posted by stillbigbac:
Tax law says I'm not supposed to tax services or fees but the same people gave me instructions to charge sales tax on DROS. DOJ says dont charge it.. Frachise says collect it (against their own directions) so what the heck do you do?


Ignore DOJ Firearms about tax law.

Wouldn't the state Board of Equalization (sales tax) really be the one in control of retail taxation? (As opposed to FTB - biz & income tax).



Bill Wiese
San Jose

jnojr
06-27-2005, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by jmlivingston:
What's frustrating is that by law he's required to do the transfer since it's a legal firearm.

You'll never see an FFL prosecuted for refusing to transfer a firearm in this state. Never.

You would think anyone running a gun store in California would have at least enough brains to know and understand what is/isn't legal here

Our laws are too screwed up. It's entirely possible that an FFL could accept the transfer, CA DOJ gets wind, and they decide that the gun isn't legal. Guess what? Everyone goes to jail, loses their gun rights, loses their livelihood, etc. Maybe, if one party has enough money, they could drag the case through the courts and be found not guilty years later.

stillbigmac
06-27-2005, 8:10 PM
OF course I ignore DOJ about tax law. When they are talking about firearms or amunition I am all ears.

I had a customer complaining that the DOJ said I shouldn't collect sales tax for dros. I simply plopped my letter from the tax board on the table and had him read it for himself. I have a letter that clearly instructs me to tax that part of the transaction.

The bad advice I always give reguards the intra familiar transfer. I am always trying to save a guy a buck (and avoid storing their guns). I know it says father son, grandfather grandson. If you take it strictly like that then my grandad couldn't give a gun to my mom, his daughter. My uncle gave me a rifle when I was ten. By my standards thats a direct family relation. By the law brothers are not directly related ?? Cmon..

Unless the zestava had a grenade launcher, we all know it's a legal firearms. Iggy knows it's legal and thats what counts, christ he knows what legal and illegal inside and out.. (Iggy is the DOJ firearms insector and expert)
I think your dealer was on his period. It happens to all of us, honest.

Anybody that thinks they know the law, hasn't been asked enough questions. I regularly give the rules a read to try and keep them fresh in my mind. I mean whats the big dealit's only a couple volumes of law http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I just checked,, project childsafe has several models of approved gunlock. Too bad they don't come with a reciept.

qualityrockola
06-28-2005, 1:29 PM
CA firearms law is staggering. In the purple book it is like 60-70 pages compared to like 2 or 3 pages for most other states, come on! makes me a little angry.

Moonclip
06-28-2005, 2:17 PM
Yes the range in Torrance has pissed me off a few times but I put up with it due to reasonable prices and they allow you to shoot just about any legal type of ammo and shotguns and pistol caliber long guns at any time.

However I will not shop somewhere once the abuse gets bad enough. I no longer go to Evans range due to them disrespecting my father and I stopped going to B&B and B&E due to their attitude. I never understood gun store being rude to me as I easily between my father and I bought 20-25 guns from B&B before their demise and almost all my guns in my early gun collecting years came from B&E.

I once saw on another website"why are all the a- holes in the retail world located in motorcycle and gun shops"!

There is a particular offender at Torrance, he is quite overweight with grey hair, when he is there, I am tempted to walk out. The one I bet Toolman dealt with though, he was there the same day, he is older and taller and skinner and has a slightly less bad attitude than the fatter guy.

He is a trip, the range is a bit lax. In over 30 trips to the range I have never seen him come in to monitor the shooters or see what the gangbanger types are up to, he is content to BS and eat and smoke cigarettes in the counter area. Once a small fire started in the backstop from the paper scraps and unburned powder. Since the fire burned out by the time I alerted him to it he didn't even go in to look at it or make sure it was not smoldering!

His language can be a bit crude, I was told a S&W 1911 was a "f$%^IN piece of s&^t! As I told my dad, if we stop going to ranges or stores that have an attitude we would never shoot or buy a gun again probably!Yes I know the customer is actually not always right, I have seen quite a bit of stupidity from the gun buying public but we have to be right once in a while!

stillbigmac
06-28-2005, 4:55 PM
I guess I am blessed... I figured out in my first two weeks of being a dealer tehre is ALOT to learn.

It's good to know you don't know everything.

socalguns
07-05-2005, 8:08 AM
Originally posted by Turbinator:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stillbigbac:
That project childsafe lock isn't on the CA approved list of locking devices.

My doj auditor warned me about it a couple of months ago.

Really? Target Masters has a list with the lock shown on the list. I saw it myself - unless their list is bogus.

Turby </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You always needed a receipt,
and if you get one of those childsafe locks this year, you'll get a receipt
(has little blurb about project childsafe, date, number of locks, and signature).
And the lock has been on the list before (under manufacturers name), but its now also listed
under the project childsafe name.

http://justice.doj.ca.gov/safetydevice/dsearch2.asp

Search results for: 7/5/05

Device Make: Project ChildSafe
Device Model: GL710-NSSF Taiwan R.O.C.
Text Description: Auto-loading rifles, bolt action rifles, pump action shotguns, semiautomatic shotguns, double action revolvers, single action revolvers, auto loading pistols, single shot rifles, single shot shotguns, and single shot pistols, with barrels, chambers and/or openings large enough to accept a 0.265 inch cable.

Turbinator
07-05-2005, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by stillbigbac:
I just checked,, project childsafe has several models of approved gunlock. Too bad they don't come with a reciept.

Ah hah! I knew I wasn't seeing things. Yup, too bad you can't get a receipt with one. Hey, I guess someone could SELL you one!! For $1.00?

Turby

stillbigmac
07-06-2005, 5:53 PM
I would accept a reciept for a dollar.. Im not interested in selling locks...

code33
07-07-2005, 3:09 PM
Since there is an abundance of those Project Childsafe locks available at the moment. Everyone can go grab a few and donate them to Martin's shop. When a purchase is made where a lock is needed, one can be included with the sale.

socalguns
07-07-2005, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Turbinator:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stillbigbac:
I just checked,, project childsafe has several models of approved gunlock. Too bad they don't come with a reciept.

Ah hah! I knew I wasn't seeing things. Yup, too bad you can't get a receipt with one. Hey, I guess someone could SELL you one!! For $1.00?

Turby </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just got a bunch in May, came with a receipt.
The sheriff's department that gave them out didn't use to give out receipts unless you asked,
now project childsafe provided them with a printout

dwtt
07-08-2005, 9:31 PM
Originally posted by stillbigbac:
(Much deleted)

I just checked,, project childsafe has several models of approved gunlock. Too bad they don't come with a reciept.
But they do in some cases. I went to the police station in Fremont to get a free gun lock when I bought a new glock. I told the woman behind the bullet resistant plastic that I would need some proof when I got the lock so my dealer can accept it and she wrote on the back of her police business card that I received the lock on that day. My dealer said that was good enough for his requirement, but Glocks already come with a lock. I wasted my time for nothing.

socalguns
07-09-2005, 4:49 AM
Originally posted by dwtt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stillbigbac:
(Much deleted)

I just checked,, project childsafe has several models of approved gunlock. Too bad they don't come with a reciept.
But they do in some cases. I went to the police station in Fremont to get a free gun lock when I bought a new glock. I told the woman behind the bullet resistant plastic that I would need some proof when I got the lock so my dealer can accept it and she wrote on the back of her police business card that I received the lock on that day. My dealer said that was good enough for his requirement, but Glocks already come with a lock. I wasted my time for nothing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its good enough for the state of california.
All a receipt is (legal definition)
is a dated invoice from the "seller", even if its costs you $0, and doesn't even have to be written on paper, although most would prefer it that way http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rob454
01-13-2007, 7:17 PM
Top that with the attitude of "for 10 bucks it was not worth doing the transfer" and you have to wonder how he ever expects to keep his business afloat. Business must be doing well that he can pick and choose his customers...


The thing is It doesnt matter if it is or isnt worth the $$ to do the transfer. By LAW he is REQUIRED to do the transfer because hehas a FFL. I would report his *** to the DOJ. I jsut reported turners for the 3x I went there to do a gun transfer and EVERY time the computer was down.
Rob

!@#$
01-13-2007, 7:26 PM
The thing is It doesnt matter if it is or isnt worth the $$ to do the transfer. By LAW he is REQUIRED to do the transfer because hehas a FFL. I would report his *** to the DOJ. I jsut reported turners for the 3x I went there to do a gun transfer and EVERY time the computer was down.
Rob


i hate that "computer is down crap"


then why are you doing a dros for the guy that just bought that shotgun on the counter?

cseabass
02-12-2007, 11:04 AM
Really? Target Masters has a list with the lock shown on the list. I saw it myself - unless their list is bogus.

Turby



it doesnt have the marke next to it. stating its legal. the list is there so if somone brings somthing in and theres any question, an empolyee can take it out and look it up by name to see if its approved.
thanks for the defense martin.

EOD Guy
02-12-2007, 11:39 AM
The bad advice I always give reguards the intra familiar transfer. I am always trying to save a guy a buck (and avoid storing their guns). I know it says father son, grandfather grandson. If you take it strictly like that then my grandad couldn't give a gun to my mom, his daughter. My uncle gave me a rifle when I was ten. By my standards thats a direct family relation. By the law brothers are not directly related ?? Cmon..



Mac,

If you look again, the Penal Code [PC12078(c)(3)] defines "immediate family member" as either parent and child or grandparent and grandchild, so your grandad could legally give a gun to your mom.

Rich

Pulsar
02-12-2007, 6:31 PM
Similar thing happened to me when I sold my 59/66 to a friend. Went to a store about two blocks from his apartment to do PPT, get in the store take it out of the case and the guy behind the counter looks at it like I just dropped an RPG on the counter. He calls over another co-worker who promptly recognizes it as an SKS, but he says since it has the bayonet that it's illegal. I tried to explain that it was legal with the bayonet. But he said they wouldn't do the transfer with the bayonet on, so right in front of the guy I pulled the bayonet off, and asked if we could do the transfer now. Oddly he said yes, so we left the rifle there for the ten day wait and I just gave the bayonet to my friend.

grammaton76
02-12-2007, 6:35 PM
Lately, my #1 gripe is people who can't get it through their heads that bayonets and threaded barrels on long guns were FEDERAL AWB issues, not California...

CALI-gula
02-12-2007, 6:53 PM
Lately, my #1 gripe is people who can't get it through their heads that bayonets and threaded barrels on long guns were FEDERAL AWB issues, not California...

This is true, but everyone knows a compass mounted in the butt-stock is still illegal in California. Oh, and bottle-openers formed into the underside of the receiver.

.

Dump1567
02-12-2007, 7:22 PM
It seems some dealers just won't listen to reason or do the research to find out they're wrong. I know that's not all dealers, but I can't believe the arrogance of a lot of the gun dealers I come into contact with.

I was at Fowlers gun room today and they had a Yugo SKS with grenade launcher. I told a couple employees about it including a guy that's worked there for years. He then tried to tell me they get them like that all the time & probably had more in the back. I tried to explain the grenade launcher issue and he would hear non of it.

Unfortanetly this gets passed onto some unsuspecting customer.:mad:

M. Sage
02-12-2007, 7:23 PM
it doesnt have the marke next to it. stating its legal. the list is there so if somone brings somthing in and theres any question, an empolyee can take it out and look it up by name to see if its approved.
thanks for the defense martin.

Wow. All three CA purchases I've made, I've got a "Project Childsafe" lock.

Still got #3 sitting in it's original plastic wrapper in my bedroom. It's waiting to get shot like #2 did - by the gun it was meant to lock up. :D

Pulsar
02-12-2007, 7:58 PM
I really need to post the picture of the classroom at school. one of the instructors got his hands on a couple boxes of childsafe locks and strong them like Christmas lights around the classroom. Probably a couple hundred of these things hanging from the wall. Best use I've ever seen for those locks.

Maddog5150
02-12-2007, 8:16 PM
This is true, but everyone knows a compass mounted in the butt-stock is still illegal in California. Oh, and bottle-openers formed into the underside of the receiver.



Thats illegal? How else am I going to open my beer when Im shooting three gun?

I love "project excuse for not watching me kid" cable locks or any cable locks. Go out and get yourself some pvc pipe. Cut the bottom at an angle so that its kinda like a stake. Starting from the top drill a hole through it and do that every foot. Put a peice of rebar or other metal rod through each hole. Go out in the desert and stake it in the ground. Hang your cable locks on the the metal rods. Get out your 10/22, some cola and sun flower seeds and make those little bastards spin on the rods.