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eltee
08-04-2009, 9:20 AM
I did a search here, but nothing specifically addressed what I am looking for.

I'm lead to believe that the HSC exemption categories apply to the Safe Handling Demonstration, but it isn't so stated on the affidavit. Is it OK, then, to just have the HSC exemption on the DROS and assume that the need for a demo and affidavit is waived without further documentation?

ke6guj
08-04-2009, 10:28 AM
yup, if you are exempt from the HSC, then you are exempt from the demo.


12071.(b)(8)(J) The persons who are exempt from the requirements of subdivision (b) of Section 12801, pursuant to Section 12807, are also exempt from performing the safe handling demonstration.

12801. (b) No person shall do either of the following:
(1) Purchase or receive any handgun, except an antique firearm, as defined in paragraph (16) of subsection (a) of Section 921 of Title 18 of the United States Code, without a valid handgun safety certificate.
(2) Sell, deliver, loan, or transfer any handgun, except an antique firearm, as defined in paragraph (16) of subsection (a) of Section 921 of Title 18 of the United States Code, to any person who does not have a valid handgun safety certificate.

12807. (a) The following persons, properly identified, are exempted from the handgun safety certificate requirement in subdivision (b) of Section 12801:
(1) Any active or honorably retired peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2.
(2) Any active or honorably retired federal officer or law enforcement agent.
(3) Any reserve peace officer, as defined in Section 832.6.
(4) Any person who has successfully completed the course of training specified in Section 832.
(5) A firearms dealer licensed pursuant to Section 12071, who is acting in the course and scope of his or her activities as a person licensed pursuant to Section 12071.
(6) A federally licensed collector who is acquiring or being loaned a handgun that is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, who has a current certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the department pursuant to Section 12071.
(7) A person to whom a handgun is being returned, where the person receiving the firearm is the owner of the firearm.
(8) A family member of a peace officer or deputy sheriff from a local agency who receives a firearm pursuant to Section 50081 of the Government Code.
(9) Any individual who has a valid concealed weapons permit issued pursuant to Section 12050.
(10) An active, or honorably retired member of the United States Armed Forces, the National Guard, the Air National Guard, the active reserve components of the United States, where individuals in those organizations are properly identified. For purposes of this section, proper identification includes the Armed Forces Identification Card, or other written documentation certifying that the individual is an active or honorably retired member.
(11) Any person who is authorized to carry loaded firearms pursuant to subdivision (c) or (d) of Section 12031.
(12) Persons who are the holders of a special weapons permit issued by the department pursuant to Section 12095, 12230, 12250, or 12305.
(b) The following persons who take title or possession of a handgun by operation of law in a representative capacity, until or unless they transfer title ownership of the handgun to themselves in a personal capacity, are exempted from the handgun safety certificate requirement in subdivision (b) of Section 12801:
(1) The executor or administrator of an estate.
(2) A secured creditor or an agent or employee thereof when the firearms are possessed as collateral for, or as a result of, or an agent or employee thereof when the firearms are possessed as collateral for, or as a result of, a default under a security agreement under the Commercial Code.
(3) A levying officer, as defined in Section 481.140, 511.060, or 680.260 of the Code of Civil Procedure.
(4) A receiver performing his or her functions as a receiver.
(5) A trustee in bankruptcy performing his or her duties.
(6) An assignee for the benefit of creditors performing his or her functions as an assignee.

eltee
08-04-2009, 10:36 AM
THANKS

kemasa
08-04-2009, 10:54 AM
Yes. The Safety demo is part of the HSC, but specifically:

12071(b)(8) (if I followed it back correctly)
(J) The persons who are exempt from the requirements of
subdivision (b) of Section 12801, pursuant to Section 12807, are also
exempt from performing the safe handling demonstration.

TripleT
08-04-2009, 4:01 PM
Not to threadjack but if it hasn't been mentioned before you can view the HSC video (doj is still supplying vhs tape for 5.00 but who has a vhs player) here. (http://www.youtube.com/user/DefensiveAccuracy)

Thanks to DefensiveAccuracy for putting the vid's on youtube...

kemasa
08-04-2009, 4:37 PM
The first copy of the video is free. I converted it to a DVD.

The youtube video is actually split into two parts. The second was posted, the first is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0eHOOiwtQU

TripleT
08-04-2009, 8:33 PM
I converted it to a DVD.


Wanna' share the iso with your fellow calgunners ?

kemasa
08-05-2009, 8:18 AM
My connection is not fast enough to upload it.

If you want, I can send you a copy and then you can see what you can do with it. Send me a PM.

kemasa
09-08-2009, 11:03 AM
FYI, I have been in contact with the CA DOJ in order to attempt to get approval to give (not sell) the converted video. I don't want to get in trouble with them claiming that there was a copyright violation or something. Tax payers paid for this video, so there should not be any issues. As you can see based on the last message, it has been over a month that this has been going on.

The person who is supposed to deal with this is Kevin Baena at the CA DOJ Firearms division, but he seems to be dropping the ball and has given me excuse after excuse. There was supposed to me a meeting about it, but it has not happened. He has not even gotten an opinion from their legal staff. I have left messages for him and he does not return my calls. I left a message last week and finally got a hold of him today. He said that he realized that he should try to setup the meeting when he got my call, which tells me that nothing is really happening.

I have placed some phone calls in order to get a fire going under his butt, so we shall see what happens. I have given him quite a bit of time to get this done, but it does not seem that it is important to him and/or others. I would strongly suggest that you call and apply pressure in this matter.

I was told that they lose money on each VHS video sold as the shipping and cost to produce it exceeds $5. They could put the video up on their web page and not have to sell it anymore, but Kevin claims that would be difficult to do. I am offering to give the video to FFLs for free if I can get approval, but they can't even seem to make a decision. This is our tax dollars at work!!!

TripleT
09-08-2009, 11:29 AM
The DOJ is going to be by here on Friday, so I'll ask about it.

You'd think you were asking for the rights to Gone with the Wind or something... ;-)

kemasa
09-08-2009, 11:33 AM
Yeah, they admit that it is in an outdated format and that they need to change it, but they are not doing anything about it. Personally, I think that all HSC Instructors should request their one free copy of the video to give them something to think about. Also, if all the old VHS copies run out, then they will have to do something about it.

I would not be so annoyed if Kevin had taken the time to call me back. He claimed that there was no status, but he does not seem to understand what status means.

vinniesguns
09-08-2009, 2:54 PM
Do you need to do the Safety demo everytime they buy a gun? Or only when you give the HSC test? If a guy comes in and has an HSC for three years and has bought 10 guns, does he need to do the demo everytime?
Thanks
Vinnie

ke6guj
09-08-2009, 2:59 PM
everytime.

12071(b)(D) Commencing January 1, 2003, except as authorized by the department, no firearms dealer may deliver a handgun unless the recipient performs a safe handling demonstration with that handgun. The demonstration shall commence with the handgun unloaded and locked with the firearm safety device with which it is required to be delivered, if applicable. While maintaining muzzle awareness, that is, the firearm is pointed in a safe direction, preferably down at the ground, and trigger discipline, that is, the trigger finger is outside of the trigger guard and along side of the handgun frame, at all times, the handgun recipient shall correctly and safely perform the following:
(i) If the handgun is a semiautomatic pistol:
(I) Remove the magazine.
(II) Lock the slide back. If the model of firearm does not allow the slide to be locked back, pull the slide back, visually and physically check the chamber to ensure that it is clear.
(III) Visually and physically inspect the chamber, to ensure that the handgun is unloaded.
(IV) Remove the firearm safety device, if applicable. If the firearm safety device prevents any of the previous steps, remove the firearm safety device during the appropriate step.
(V) Load one bright orange, red, or other readily identifiable dummy round into the magazine. If no readily identifiable dummy round is available, an empty cartridge casing with an empty primer pocket may be used.
(VI) Insert the magazine into the magazine well of the firearm.
(VII) Manipulate the slide release or pull back and release the slide.
(VIII) Remove the magazine.
(IX) Visually inspect the chamber to reveal that a round can be chambered with the magazine removed.
(X) Lock the slide back to eject the bright orange, red, or other readily identifiable dummy round. If the handgun is of a model that does not allow the slide to be locked back, pull the slide back and physically check the chamber to ensure that the chamber is clear. If no readily identifiable dummy round is available, an empty cartridge casing with an empty primer pocket may be used.
(XI) Apply the safety, if applicable.
(XII) Apply the firearm safety device, if applicable. This requirement shall not apply to an Olympic competition pistol if no firearms safety device, other than a cable lock that the department has determined would damage the barrel of the pistol, has been approved for the pistol, and the pistol is either listed in paragraph (2) of subdivision (h) of Section 12132 or is subject to paragraph (3) of subdivision (h) of Section 12132.
(ii) If the handgun is a double-action revolver:
(I) Open the cylinder.
(II) Visually and physically inspect each chamber, to ensure that the revolver is unloaded.
(III) Remove the firearm safety device. If the firearm safety device prevents any of the previous steps, remove the firearm safety device during the appropriate step.
(IV) While maintaining muzzle awareness and trigger discipline, load one bright orange, red, or other readily identifiable dummy round into a chamber of the cylinder and rotate the cylinder so that the round is in the next-to-fire position. If no readily identifiable dummy round is available, an empty cartridge casing with an empty primer pocket may be used.
(V) Close the cylinder.
(VI) Open the cylinder and eject the round.
(VII) Visually and physically inspect each chamber to ensure that the revolver is unloaded.
(VIII) Apply the firearm safety device, if applicable. This requirement shall not apply to an Olympic competition pistol if no firearms safety device, other than a cable lock that the department has determined would damage the barrel of the pistol, has been approved for the pistol, and the pistol is either listed in paragraph (2) of subdivision (h) of Section 12132 or is subject to paragraph (3) of subdivision (h) of Section 12132.
(iii) If the handgun is a single-action revolver:
(I) Open the loading gate.
(II) Visually and physically inspect each chamber, to ensure that the revolver is unloaded.
(III) Remove the firearm safety device required to be sold with the handgun. If the firearm safety device prevents any of the previous steps, remove the firearm safety device during the appropriate step.
(IV) Load one bright orange, red, or other readily identifiable dummy round into a chamber of the cylinder, close the loading gate and rotate the cylinder so that the round is in the next-to-fire position. If no readily identifiable dummy round is available, an empty cartridge casing with an empty primer pocket may be used.
(V) Open the loading gate and unload the revolver.
(VI) Visually and physically inspect each chamber to ensure that the revolver is unloaded.
(VII) Apply the firearm safety device, if applicable. This requirement shall not apply to an Olympic competition pistol if no firearms safety device, other than a cable lock that the department has determined would damage the barrel of the pistol, has been approved for the pistol, and the pistol is either listed in paragraph (2) of subdivision (h) of Section 12132 or is subject to paragraph (3) of subdivision (h) of Section 12132.
(E) The recipient shall receive instruction regarding how to render that handgun safe in the event of a jam.
(F) The firearms dealer shall sign and date an affidavit stating that the requirements of subparagraph (D) have been met. The firearms dealer shall additionally obtain the signature of the handgun purchaser on the same affidavit. The firearms dealer shall retain the original affidavit as proof of compliance with this requirement.
(G) The recipient shall perform the safe handling demonstration for a department certified instructor.
(H) No demonstration shall be required if the dealer is returning the handgun to the owner of the handgun.
(I) Department certified instructors who may administer the safe handling demonstration shall meet the requirements set forth in subdivision (j) of Section 12804.
(J) The persons who are exempt from the requirements of subdivision (b) of Section 12801, pursuant to Section 12807, are also exempt from performing the safe handling demonstration.

tenpercentfirearms
09-08-2009, 9:34 PM
Do you need to do the Safety demo everytime they buy a gun? Or only when you give the HSC test? If a guy comes in and has an HSC for three years and has bought 10 guns, does he need to do the demo everytime?
Thanks
Vinnie

Damn Vinnie. I am glad you are here. We are going to keep you out of jail.

HSC affidavit and perform everything it says you perform every time. Period.

Unless they are exempt and then you can do a happy dance.

kemasa
09-11-2009, 9:28 AM
I talked to Mr. Baena today. What a joke. He said that the discussion is scheduled, at a meeting which has not been scheduled. I called the AG's office due to a lack of response on the part of Mr. Baena, which I told him I was going to do. Due to this, Mr. Baena said that any decision would be delayed by months. He claimed that they looked a the video and there are things which are out of date, so they make have to make a new version. I am not sure of how this relates to whether the current HSC video is public domain because it was paid for by tax payer money. Mr. Baena does not seem to want to ask their attorney about it and instead just wants to waste time and taxpayer money talking about aspects which really don't apply.

I called the AG's office again and the woman I talked to was surprised as she thought, due to exchanged emails, that it was going to be taken care of. She said that someone was supposed to have called me back as well.

It is amazing how our tax money is being wasted and that I can't get a answer to a simple question. Since tax payer money was used to make this video, is it in the public domain such that I can give it out for free. Yes or No.

kemasa
09-11-2009, 12:36 PM
Note: There was a last second (or past last second) change. It turns out that there is a copyright on the video, so the CA DOJ needs to grant me a license in order to allow me to give it to people. This paperwork should be done today and once that is done, I will allow access.

I finally was contacted by the right person and was given permission/told that there were no issues with giving out copies of the HSC video, converted from VHS to a DVD iso file.

You can access it at:

http://www.net-ffl.com/hsc/

I was told that they are in the process of updating the video, but it will take quite some time to do so. They will be making the updated video available on the CA DOJ Firearms website. Since it is the government, it might take quite some time until it is done. In the meantime, you can make use of this converted video.

You should be able to download it and watch it on your computer or create a DVD from the iso file.

TripleT
09-11-2009, 7:51 PM
Thanks for your efforts. I have the iso and it takes about 5 minutes to make a dvd, ymmv, but it's going to be good to be able to loan a customer a dvd, they can watch at home on tv or pc and then take the test. I'm still waiting for somebody to ask to borrow the vhs...:D

halifax
09-12-2009, 4:59 AM
Note: There was a last second (or past last second) change. It turns out that there is a copyright on the video, so the CA DOJ needs to grant me a license in order to allow me to give it to people. This paperwork should be done today and once that is done, I will allow access.

I finally was contacted by the right person and was given permission/told that there were no issues with giving out copies of the HSC video, converted from VHS to a DVD iso file.

You can access it at:

http://www.net-ffl.com/hsc/

I was told that they are in the process of updating the video, but it will take quite some time to do so. They will be making the updated video available on the CA DOJ Firearms website. Since it is the government, it might take quite some time until it is done. In the meantime, you can make use of this converted video.

You should be able to download it and watch it on your computer or create a DVD from the iso file.

Has the link been removed? I can't figure out which one is the .iso.

kemasa
09-12-2009, 9:34 AM
Yes, as I mentioned, the link has been removed for a bit (see first paragraph). I had received approval, then I later got a call back saying that there is a copyright on it and so they needed to have a license agreement signed. I received the agreement, signed it, scanned it and sent it back, BUT they did not sign the copy that they sent me, so until I get that, it is delayed a bit.

It should be soon and at least progress is being made.

kemasa
09-15-2009, 4:46 PM
FYI: I got the copyright license agreement, but I have not received the pdf file for the label. For the most part the label is not needed, but if anyone makes a DVD, it should be there. Due to a medical issue, the DVD label is delayed, so hopefully next week everything should be good to go. Sorry about the delay, but at least the CA DOJ is working on this and trying to get it all done in a timely manner, showing that who is assisting you at the DOJ makes a huge difference.

EOD Guy
09-16-2009, 6:42 AM
The DOJ is going to be by here on Friday, so I'll ask about it.

You'd think you were asking for the rights to Gone with the Wind or something... ;-)

The State of California has a habit of selling rights to their publications to commercial publishers rather than reproduce them themselves. For instance Barclays has the rights to the California Code of Regulations and they are the only ones who can distribute them. I don't know if the same is true for the video.

kemasa
09-16-2009, 10:21 AM
The process is moving forward, which is much better than when I was talking to the other person who seemed to be doing very little, other than relaying the question incorrectly and finally scheduling it to be discussed in a meeting which had not been scheduled yet and thought that was something.

The pdf label is really not much to worry about, but per the agreement it needs to be put on a DVD and while I can not force someone, I really need to make it available. It should be a short delay, especially considering the previous delay.

kemasa
09-25-2009, 9:47 AM
Ok, finally everything has been dealt with and the webpage is now "live".

You can access it at:

http://www.net-ffl.com/hsc/

TripleT
09-25-2009, 10:14 AM
Great job ! Thanks for all your efforts in dealing with the bureaucracy.
:)

kemasa
09-25-2009, 10:19 AM
You are welcome. I hope people can make use of it.

TripleT
09-25-2009, 11:06 AM
I have already burned a couple of loaner dvd's and anyone that questions if they can pass the test will be welcome to take one home to play on their computer or tv to assist them.

kemasa
09-25-2009, 11:10 AM
I hope you put the required label on them. The DOJ was talking about make a new label, but in the end decided to use the old label, which makes sense since that is the proper label for the video.

TripleT
09-25-2009, 11:18 AM
I hope you put the required label on them. The DOJ was talking about make a new label, but in the end decided to use the old label, which makes sense since that is the proper label for the video.

Printed 'em, pasted 'em. Legal once more ! :)

Capt. Speirs
09-25-2009, 2:44 PM
http://www.net-ffl.com/hsc/hscengo.iso link is broken, unless I am doing something wrong.

kemasa
09-26-2009, 8:03 AM
Sorry, I changed the permissions to prevent downloading and forgot to change it back. It should work now. I had changed the initial webpage, but that does not prevent access to the files if people knew the exact link.

Please try it again.

randy
09-30-2009, 5:45 AM
If you are an HSC "instructor" does can you test yourself?

kemasa
09-30-2009, 8:46 AM
No, that would be a conflict, but your instructor number is what you use for the HSC number if you purchase a firearm.