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View Full Version : What is legal such as an assault rifle?


tango 5
06-09-2005, 8:36 AM
Ok guys, ive been a gun owner since i was a kid, im 28 now. Spent 8 years in the US Army Reserves and was an Expert with the M16A2. But recently i have been out of the loop when it comes to assault rifles and the laws that have taken place in the past years recently. I am really looking at buying, (if its legal anymore) an AR-15. Which i know is illegal, but i heard that there are a few variants of it that are still legal in Ca. I heard that the legal rifles have a closed magazine well and had to be top loaded and can only hold 5 rounds or so. Can anyone tell me what is legal in regards to diffrent types of semi-auto rifles of this nature? Thanks guys, i appreciate any feedback.

tango 5
06-09-2005, 8:38 AM
Let me rephrase my first line, lol. My father has owned guns since i was a kid, and a few of those were mine. Which now are all mine since he passed away. I dont want to make it sound like a was a kid that owned and carried guns, lol!

bwiese
06-09-2005, 9:17 AM
Hi, Tango5...

For all practical purposes, if you didn't have an AR15 or other 'assault weapon' in Calif. by 2000 and also register it by the end of that year, you're outta luck.

In CA now, essentially anything with a pistol grip + ability to accept a detachable hicap mag is verboten. Also, if you didn't own hicap mags in CA before 2000, you can't acquire or possess them in CA either: max capacity is 10rds now.

There are AR variants like the FAB10, the Vulcan Arms and the GB Sales modified Bushmaster. All of these guns/receivers have either a closed magazine well (FAB10, GB Sales') or a fixed and permanently attached 10rd magazine (Vulcan). Because the mag is permantely fixed and at reduced 10rd max capacity, CA DOJ no longer considers these as AR15-class rifles: these are legal to acquire and use like any regular rifle. These rifles do use all other standard AR15 parts like upper receivers, bolt carriers, buffers, stocks, triggers, etc.

Knowing a bit about Vulcan's predecessor company (Hesse Arms) and having actually seen the product, I would steer away from this esp seeing the low-quality 10rd magazine affixed to it. The FAB10 has been out there longer and is a tried/tested design. You do have to open these rifles' two halves to load them - there is no such thing for ARs as a stripper clip cover that allows easy loading. (More about this later.) So these are range guns, but not neccessarily utility guns.

[Also, the GB Sales' modified Bushmaster rifles are only sold as complete rifles, for quite high prices: you can't just buy a GB Sales receiver from an FFL dealer and build it up yourself.]

As far as CA-legal guns that can be directly fed via top-loading & use stripper clips without breaking gun open, I believe this only applies to the CA-legal FAL (.308) clones. A 10rd mag is screwed in place (i.e., not detachable) so as to be considered 'not detachable'. The rifle's upper receiver cover is swapped for one that has an opening and these guns can be easily fed w/308 ammo on strippers without breaking open gun.

If you're looking for CA-legal semiauto rifles without the grief of these specialty rifles, look into these conventionally-stocked (no pistol grip, that is) rifles: <UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI> Ruger Mini-14 (2005 model much more accurate)
<LI> Springfield Armory M1A, Scout or SOCOM (.308!)
<LI> KelTec SU16 family (takes AR mags but I'm not a big fan of SU16s)
[/list]

You could also consider the new pump action Remington 7615. It's chambered in 223 and works like an 870 pump shotgun, but it accepts M16/AR15 magazines (10 rd or hicap, doesn't matter). I've handled one at the SHOT Show: it looks easy to use, and reports are that it's quite accurate.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

C.G.
06-09-2005, 12:25 PM
Knowing a bit about Vulcan's predecessor company (Hesse Arms) and having actually seen the product, I would steer away from this esp seeing the low-quality 10rd magazine affixed to it. The FAB10 has been out there longer and is a tried/tested design. You do have to open these rifles' two halves to load them - there is no such thing for ARs as a stripper clip cover that allows easy loading. (More about this later.) So these are range guns, but not neccessarily utility guns.
Bill pretty much said it all, so there is not much more to say. I own both the FAB-10 and Vulcan Arms Cali-legal AR lowers. You may want to go to the Rifleman's Forum and read my comparison of the two written not long ago (or do a search on topics in my name). I did modify a stripper clip guide for the Fab-10, but you do have to break the weapon open. Couple of other notes; I also own an SU-16, which I prefer over the Mini-14, although I have not shot the 2005 models (there are 2 camps one likes the SU-16, the other the Mini 14); if I could have a real AR-15 I certainly would not bother with either, but since I can't, the SU-16 is all right for the money. I also prefer the FAL over the Springfield (the Springfield doesn't feel "right", highly personal evaluation) and in the process of building 2, which will run the second cheapest after the SU-16 of my gun.
Bottom line is that most of the things that are available to us are only compromises to what we really want; I only wish that I would have had the "Wiesedom" http://www.calguns.net/laughroll.gifto buy the good stuff and hi-caps before the ban like some people on this board.

bwiese
06-09-2005, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by cg:
...only wish that I would have had the "Wiesedom" http://www.calguns.net/laughroll.gif to buy the good stuff and hi-caps before the ban like some people on this board.

Hahaha, thanks, I'll have to remember that one!

I am also fortunate that I could buy up lotsa AWs, mags, etc before 2000 - but then I am single, no wife or kid(s), etc. I did try to hound as many of my friends as possible to get ARs though before the cutoff...

Bill Wiese
San Jose

icormba
06-09-2005, 1:45 PM
Originally posted by Tango 5:
diffrent types of semi-auto rifles of this nature?

other choices... although a bit out-dated:
1. M1 Garand (your almost qualified through CMP w/ your Military service!)
2. SKS (more like older mini-14 accuracy from what I hear)
3. M1 carbine (more for jr's, but still FUN)
4. SVT-40
5. G43 (yeah right!!! $$$$$$)
6. others that I can't think of right now.

imported_Telpierion
06-09-2005, 3:36 PM
6. others that I can't think of right now.

6. FN-49
7. MAS 49 (but not 49/56 due to GL)
8. Hakim
9. 1903 with a Pederson Device (OK not really a viable option http://www.calguns.net/laughroll.gif )

icormba
06-09-2005, 4:30 PM
Originally posted by Telpierion:

6. FN-49

know of anyone who makes a 10 rounder?

50 Freak
06-09-2005, 4:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Telpierion:

6. FN-49


know of anyone who makes a 10 rounder?

?????? FN-49's (at least in the 30.06, 7mm & 8mm) are 10 rounders already. It's the 20 round detachable (308) that is difficult to buy here in Cali.

tango 5
06-09-2005, 5:22 PM
Wow, thanks guys for your fast replies. The info you guys gave has given me a lot of knowledge on what "legal", and whats not.

bwiese, i'll be looking into more info on the FAB10. I dont ind if i have to break the upper and lower apart to reload. I'll mainly be using it at the range for plinking, and when im out camping. If i cant kill what im shooting in 10 rounds or less, then im in more trouble then i think. For home protection i have my HK USP .40, and an 870 loaded with buckshot.

Telpierion,
You talked about the 1903 with a Pederson Device. You talkin about the Springfield 1903? I have a Rock Island 1903 30-06 that i finished last year with a new stock, Harris bi-pod and a 52mm scope, which i plan to use as my deer rifle. But whats the Pederson Device you spoke of?

icormba,
I would love to find a M1 Garand for a nice price, right now its out of my range and not on the top of my goodie list just yet, lol. When i was in the Army, i scored no less then a 37 out of 40 with my M16. My best was a 39 out of 40 on a few occasions, that damn 300meter in the prone kept eluding me, lol.

esskay
06-09-2005, 6:02 PM
Originally posted by Tango 5:
icormba,
I would love to find a M1 Garand for a nice price, right now its out of my range and not on the top of my goodie list just yet, lol. When i was in the Army, i scored no less then a 37 out of 40 with my M16. My best was a 39 out of 40 on a few occasions, that damn 300meter in the prone kept eluding me, lol.

Garands are actually incredibly reasonably priced when you buy them from the CMP. As someone else mentioned, your military service makes it really easy for you to satisfy the conditions. See here:
http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/m1garand.htm

Rack grade Garands for $325, Field grade for $375-400, Service grade for $500-550.

tango 5
06-09-2005, 6:13 PM
Originally posted by esskay:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tango 5:
icormba,
I would love to find a M1 Garand for a nice price, right now its out of my range and not on the top of my goodie list just yet, lol. When i was in the Army, i scored no less then a 37 out of 40 with my M16. My best was a 39 out of 40 on a few occasions, that damn 300meter in the prone kept eluding me, lol.

Garands are actually incredibly reasonably priced when you buy them from the CMP. As someone else mentioned, your military service makes it really easy for you to satisfy the conditions. See here:
http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/m1garand.htm

Rack grade Garands for $325, Field grade for $375-400, Service grade for $500-550. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the links, i wasnt aware of the prices and that they are soo inexpensive. Hmm, the M1 just moved up on the goodie list, lol. Thanks again.

dwtt
06-09-2005, 6:52 PM
Originally posted by esskay:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tango 5:
icormba,
I would love to find a M1 Garand for a nice price, right now its out of my range and not on the top of my goodie list just yet, lol. When i was in the Army, i scored no less then a 37 out of 40 with my M16. My best was a 39 out of 40 on a few occasions, that damn 300meter in the prone kept eluding me, lol.

Garands are actually incredibly reasonably priced when you buy them from the CMP.

Rack grade Garands for $325, Field grade for $375-400, Service grade for $500-550. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just bought a Field grade M-1 from the CMP and it arrived this week. I paid $375 + $20 Shipping. Last year they didn't have field grade rifles and you had to choose between service grade and rack grade, so I'm glad they now have a mid-range rifle with a decent throat and muzzle wear.
As for rifle qualification, they shoot 40 rounds in the Army? In the Marine Corps we shot 50 rounds from 200, 300, and 500 yards, for a total of 250 points. That was in 1988, so things might have changed since then, but I know the Marines are proud of teaching marksmanship so I doubt it might have changed a lot.

icormba
06-09-2005, 6:53 PM
oh man! I had no idea about those ones! DOH!

CRAP! another rifle (or 3) to add to the list! http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Originally posted by 50 Freak:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">quote:
Originally posted by Telpierion:

6. FN-49


know of anyone who makes a 10 rounder?

?????? FN-49's (at least in the 30.06, 7mm & 8mm) are 10 rounders already. It's the 20 round detachable (308) that is difficult to buy here in Cali. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

imported_Telpierion
06-09-2005, 7:31 PM
Telpierion,
You talked about the 1903 with a Pederson Device. You talkin about the Springfield 1903? I have a Rock Island 1903 30-06 that i finished last year with a new stock, Harris bi-pod and a 52mm scope, which i plan to use as my deer rifle. But whats the Pederson Device you spoke of?

I was indeed talking about the Springfield 1903. The Pederson device was a contraption that converted the Springfield to a semi-automatic action. It was really just a smart *** response though. Most of the devices were scraped after WWI and only a handful are known to still be in existence.

tango 5
06-09-2005, 9:02 PM
Originally posted by dwtt:

I just bought a Field grade M-1 from the CMP and it arrived this week. I paid $375 + $20 Shipping. Last year they didn't have field grade rifles and you had to choose between service grade and rack grade, so I'm glad they now have a mid-range rifle with a decent throat and muzzle wear.
As for rifle qualification, they shoot 40 rounds in the Army? In the Marine Corps we shot 50 rounds from 200, 300, and 500 yards, for a total of 250 points. That was in 1988, so things might have changed since then, but I know the Marines are proud of teaching marksmanship so I doubt it might have changed a lot.

Yeah 40 rounds, 20 from fox hole, and 20 from prone. You gotta remember though, not all Army soldiers are infantry. They teach you the basics, hence the name Basic Training. Majority of the Marines are Infantry, which means they have a higher standard for Marines. Now we can talk about Ranger and Spec Ops training if ya want, lol. That is much more intense training then your average Marine.

jmlivingston
06-09-2005, 9:44 PM
Yeah 40 rounds, 20 from fox hole, and 20 from prone.

Yup! 2 20-round mags, each full and pop-up targets at random distances (25, 50, 100, 150, 200, 250, 300 meters). Scored 39 out of 40 when I went through BT at Ft. Jackson in '87. We had a deal that the best shooter in the platoon was served breakfast in bed the following sunday by our Drill Sargeant, in their Class "A" uniforms. My-oh-my that was the best tasting breakfast I had the whole time I was there! http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif All my duty weapons after that were either the Colt .45 or the Berreta 9mm. I think the only thing I never qualified as Expert with was the grenade. But "Marksman" in that one was close enough. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

tango 5
06-10-2005, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by jmlivingston:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yeah 40 rounds, 20 from fox hole, and 20 from prone.

Yup! 2 20-round mags, each full and pop-up targets at random distances (25, 50, 100, 150, 200, 250, 300 meters). Scored 39 out of 40 when I went through BT at Ft. Jackson in '87. We had a deal that the best shooter in the platoon was served breakfast in bed the following sunday by our Drill Sargeant, in their Class "A" uniforms. My-oh-my that was the best tasting breakfast I had the whole time I was there! http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif All my duty weapons after that were either the Colt .45 or the Berreta 9mm. I think the only thing I never qualified as Expert with was the grenade. But "Marksman" in that one was close enough. http://calguns.net/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same here, i went to Jackson in 1995. I graduated in the top 4 of my company for the only soldier to hit the highest out of 40 targets. I didnt get breakfast in bed, but i did get to go through the chow line with my Drill Sgt who carried my tray while i stood behind him and told him what i wanted for all 3 meals that day. I told him i want everything! Even cake, cookies, and double helpings of everything. If you cant eat junk food like cake and cookies and sode for 6-7 weeks, its like having an orgasm when you eat it, lol. It never tasted soo good!

Army
06-10-2005, 7:35 AM
Ft.Dix, 1988. As the only one to fire expert in my basic company, my Drill SGT, SSGT Moss gave me an unfired .50 bullet to carry. He told/warned me, that if he EVER caught me without that bullet in my pocket, he would kick my butt. Seeing as SSGT Moss was a poster boy for the Infantry (large, mean, fit as hell, eats grenade pins for breakfast etc), I have always been in compliance with his final directive.

It has been interesting going through a few airports though.

tango 5
06-10-2005, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Army:
Ft.Dix, 1988. As the only one to fire expert in my basic company, my Drill SGT, SSGT Moss gave me an unfired .50 bullet to carry. He told/warned me, that if he EVER caught me without that bullet in my pocket, he would kick my butt. Seeing as SSGT Moss was a poster boy for the Infantry (large, mean, fit as hell, eats grenade pins for breakfast etc), I have always been in compliance with his final directive.

It has been interesting going through a few airports though.

So do you still carry that .50 cal round with you in your pocket? What if for some reason your walkin down the street and good ol' SSGT Moss jumps out of the bushes in full combat gear and asks you if you got that round in your pocket? You never know man, you never know, better safe then sorry. lol jk.

Turbinator
06-12-2005, 9:58 AM
Originally posted by Army:
It has been interesting going through a few airports though.

I didn't know airlines let people carry ammo on as a carry-on...?

Turby

E__WOK
06-12-2005, 6:05 PM
Why hasn't anyone mentioned the M1a?

bwiese
06-12-2005, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by E__WOK:
Why hasn't anyone mentioned the M1a?

It was indeed mentioned as one option in my previous post on this thread....

Bill Wiese
San Jose

E__WOK
06-15-2005, 4:29 PM
Now I see it.

http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/origin.htm

I want one or more of these.

http://www.ohioordnanceworks.com/colt.htm

Cali legal?

http://tnwcorp.mystarband.net/1919.html

C.G.
06-15-2005, 7:27 PM
Originally posted by E_Wok
Cali legal?

http://tnwcorp.mystarband.net/1919.html
Yes, the 1919 is legal, as long as the links are limited to 10 rounds (not 250) and no full auto. I don't know about the other two, but I think the BAR is not legal, don't know for sure.

Number 6
06-16-2005, 12:36 AM
but I think the BAR is not legal, don't know for sure.

It's my understanding that the BAR is legal in California, as long as it does not have a flash hider. The only problem is what to do about the magazines. I have never seen any 10 rounds mags for the BAR, just 20 rounders. I guess it's only really an option for those who had the tremendous foresight and bought BAR mags before the ban.

07-28-2005, 6:11 PM
Before the ban I bought an FN-49 which was egyptian marked I belive, and it was incredible. VERY accurate and SOLID beautifully machined, for some strange reason fully automatic trigger groups were readilly available for this weapon as well. I had toyed with the idea of milling out the integral feed lips and modifying it to accept detachible mags, but never got around to it. I did order a BAR mag since they were cheap and about the right size however the BAR mag was a little two wide to fit in the stock. Giving up on my idea of radical modification I instead broke out the dremel and sliced the feed lips off of the BAR mag and re-soldered it after putting it on a diet and successfully created a 20 round 8mm FN-49 Lucily I traded it off before the ban for a rust bucket M1-Grand (boy did I get the best end of that trade!!)

Originally posted by 50 Freak:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">quote:
Originally posted by Telpierion:

6. FN-49


know of anyone who makes a 10 rounder?

?????? FN-49's (at least in the 30.06, 7mm & 8mm) are 10 rounders already. It's the 20 round detachable (308) that is difficult to buy here in Cali. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>