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View Full Version : Dwarfism and minimum rifle lengths


bigtoe416
07-30-2009, 2:57 PM
I was wondering if the minimum lengths for rifles have ever been challenged by a little person (one with dwarfism) on the 2nd amendment and the equal protection clause of the 14th.

If not, might be something to consider after incorporation is complete.

yellowfin
07-30-2009, 3:53 PM
That's brilliant! It would probably have to be done in a favorable circuit to work, but it could work.

grammaton76
07-30-2009, 4:01 PM
Disabled folks with weaker (or missing) arms have also expressed interest in SBR's and AW exemptions due to inability to use bullet buttons (and thus wanting standard mag releases). So far, I haven't heard of any cases actually being filed for these specific cases.

bodger
07-30-2009, 4:37 PM
I have a permanently sprained finger.
I need to be allowed to own a full auto AR so I can just squeeze the trigger once.

michaelh
07-30-2009, 4:38 PM
lol that's funny

GoodEyeSniper
07-30-2009, 4:40 PM
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn264/cigarshirts/Guiness-Brilliant.jpg

artherd
07-30-2009, 8:51 PM
Not bad. We're working with a plaintiff in Pena that was born with no right arm. He wants his left-handed Glock your honor!

Other cards have to fall before we can effectively go after NFA, but when we do, this isn't a bad way to do it.

Muzz
07-30-2009, 9:04 PM
I'm picturing that dwarf hooker in "Total Recall" spraying her attackers with a full auto something (can't remember). She didn't seem to have any trouble.

Turo
07-30-2009, 9:09 PM
I'm picturing that dwarf hooker in "Total Recall" spraying her attackers with a full auto something (can't remember). She didn't seem to have any trouble.

Franchi LF57i Submachine gun

During the shootout at the brothel, the dwarf hooker 'Thumbelina' can be seen firing an Franchi LF57 at the mars colony soldiers.

http://www.imfdb.org/images/thumb/c/c2/Franchi_LF57.jpg/400px-Franchi_LF57.jpg

from www.imfdb.org, I love the site!

wildhawker
07-30-2009, 9:09 PM
Michaelh, what is funny?

Sheepdog1968
07-30-2009, 9:13 PM
Couldn't you just apply for the appropiate stamp using your physical size as the rational and then legally have a smaller rifle?

ke6guj
07-30-2009, 9:17 PM
Couldn't you just apply for the appropiate stamp using your physical size as the rational and then legally have a smaller rifle?you coulld try to get CADOJ permission to own an AW/SBR and if you received it, then you could file a Form 1 or Form 4 with BATFE to build/buy one. I wouldn't hold my breath for CADOJ AW and SBR permits.

PolishMike
07-30-2009, 9:19 PM
Anybody know any dwarfs?

Fjold
07-30-2009, 9:25 PM
Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) suit against the federal and state governments on second amendment grounds.

FTW!

gun toting monkeyboy
07-30-2009, 9:28 PM
The Americans with Disabilities Act actually has some REALLY big teeth in it. Going the ADA route on a 2A case might actually really put a dent in things. Somebody who isn't able to use a gun from the list should be able to argue reasonable accomadation. And governments are one of the entities that are required to comply. Your one-handed plaintiff should be able to argue that SBR AR sans bullet button would be completely reasonable, as he can't manipulate all of the controls on a modified California one.

jkchan83
07-30-2009, 10:12 PM
The Americans with Disabilities Act actually has some REALLY big teeth in it. Going the ADA route on a 2A case might actually really put a dent in things. Somebody who isn't able to use a gun from the list should be able to argue reasonable accomadation. And governments are one of the entities that are required to comply. Your one-handed plaintiff should be able to argue that SBR AR sans bullet button would be completely reasonable, as he can't manipulate all of the controls on a modified California one.

I agree that the ADA is a great idea for attacking the restrictions on 2A. I am always impressed by the creativity of the firearms owners in CA.

However, I think that it might be too far to wish that it gets rid of the fixed magazine requirement (a la bullet button) in the assault weapons law. The law provides for building/buying a rifle with a detachable magazine that is CA-compliant. I think that this would fall under the reasonable accommodation.

1JimMarch
07-30-2009, 10:14 PM
Ummmm...correct me if I'm wrong, but the WHOLE reason you can't chop, say, a Marlin levergun in 45-70 to a 14" barrel with 8" stock is that then you'd be making a concealable weapon.

However, if the owner of said weapon stands 3'5", "concealable" is then a bad joke, right?

Damn. I'll bet a little fella could beat the charge on that basis alone.

CalNRA
07-30-2009, 10:18 PM
However, if the owner of said weapon stands 3'5", "concealable" is then a bad joke, right?

Damn. I'll bet a little fella could beat the charge on that basis alone.

I can see it now.

"you honor, for ****'s sake, I can barely conceal my own **** half the time, how am I gonna conceal this pistol that's longer than my arm?"

wildhawker
07-30-2009, 10:23 PM
Next on A&E: Little people, Big Barrel.

CalNRA
07-30-2009, 10:33 PM
Next on A&E: Little people, Big Barrel.

who is the midget who is trying to buy a gun?

George Stephanopolous after a car jacking.

Jpach
07-30-2009, 10:40 PM
I can see it now.

"you honor, for ****'s sake, I can barely conceal my own **** half the time, how am I gonna conceal this pistol that's longer than my arm?"

Hahahaha if only you knew how badly I LOLd after reading that.

We may be on to something here. OP FTW!

Seesm
07-30-2009, 10:59 PM
Anybody know any dwarfs?

I know Jason Acuna... Seriously he is a wild man he would bring some serious press to this... Jason is AKA as Weeman on the show Jackass for you that do not know.

greasemonkey
07-30-2009, 11:17 PM
what if you're carrying a little person that's in possession of a legal to him SBR...does that mean you're in possession of an SBR not registered to you?!

why'd they pick the name 'little people'? why not something like 'mystic warrior'?

GoodEyeSniper
07-30-2009, 11:22 PM
Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) suit against the federal and state governments ion second amendment grounds.

FTW!

Eh, I've got quite a few problems with the ADA. Too open for abuse. Like in Squeeze Inn's case, in Sacramento. Lady went around just looking for places to sue. Even though the employees bent over backwards to serve her in a building not cut out for wheelchairs, she still sues the pants off them, forcing them to move from their original location :(

ldivinag
07-31-2009, 12:00 AM
ummm... i have very sensitive hearing...

i want my suppressor, your honor...


:)

snobord99
07-31-2009, 12:30 AM
Hahaha. Very creative thinking. I'm damn sure it won't work (dwarfs aren't a suspect class) but that is some creative *** thinking :p.

Now...let's hope I passed the bar today lol.

TheBundo
07-31-2009, 1:41 AM
While we have been reaching out to other minority groups, like the Pink Pistols, I think somebody (maybe all of us) has really dropped the ball in not reaching out to midgets. Hopefully this is the start of correcting that.

Futurecollector
07-31-2009, 3:07 AM
This thread is way way to much!!!

LOL

Fjold
07-31-2009, 7:02 AM
Eh, I've got quite a few problems with the ADA. Too open for abuse. Like in Squeeze Inn's case, in Sacramento. Lady went around just looking for places to sue. Even though the employees bent over backwards to serve her in a building not cut out for wheelchairs, she still sues the pants off them, forcing them to move from their original location :(


That's why it's fitting to sue the Feds with it. They passed the law, let them hang by it.

Bugei
07-31-2009, 7:13 AM
Look, we have a bunch of guys coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan that were hit with IEDs and have various injuries (missing limbs, paralysis, etc) that will preclude effective self-defense using any method other than a firearm. Knives aren't a "recognized" method of self-defense in this state and proper use of one requires mobility anyway. A paraplegic would find even pepper spray to be problematic, as the effects have a tendency to affect bystanders and he/she doesn't have any choice but to be a bystander.

This would be both a good issue and a wedge issue, as the politicians who are anti-gun wish to be seen as pro-ADA. Not that we would stoop to wedge issues, of course.

Nordyke is en banc and I'm suspicious as to their intent. It is possible that the surge in success using Second Amendment arguments is slowing, at least for a time. In the meantime, I suggest reaching out to the disabled veterans with an eye to continuing forward movement on ADA grounds.

motorhead
07-31-2009, 9:22 AM
might open the door to SBR's. apply to DOJ and get denied. file ADA suit.

berto
07-31-2009, 10:08 AM
While we have been reaching out to other minority groups, like the Pink Pistols, I think somebody (maybe all of us) has really dropped the ball in not reaching out to midgets. Hopefully this is the start of correcting that.

They prefer little people, and many consider midget a slur.

Flopper
07-31-2009, 10:28 AM
ummm... i have very sensitive hearing...

i want my suppressor, your honor...


:)

Actually, I do. Even when I wear earmuffs AND plugs, it still hurts.

If you ever want a plaintiff, I'll apply for a DWP (or equivalent) for a suppressor just to get denied so we have standing.

michaelh
07-31-2009, 10:31 AM
Michaelh, what is funny?

It's funny because gun owners have to be creative in order to circumvent these foolish gun laws that the elected officials of this state (who are supposed to represent the people's interests) have put in place. I'm glad it's being done, but it's too bad that this "game" is so complicated. It would be nice if one day there would be a simple understanding that the citizen has the basic right to defend his/her property, loved ones, and self without worrying about laws and regulations.

dfletcher
07-31-2009, 11:21 AM
Does trying to go the ADA route put any responsibility on manufacturers to make some or all of their products ADA compliant? Who foots the bill for this - the manufacturer or the disabled person?

Stepping outside the gun field, I'm presuming a bicycle manufacturer is not required to come up with a bike or accomodation that would allow someone with one arm or one leg or a 12" inseam to use their product, correct? And the same should hold true for the manufacturers of other products.

Scarecrow Repair
07-31-2009, 1:09 PM
Stepping outside the gun field, I'm presuming a bicycle manufacturer is not required to come up with a bike or accomodation that would allow someone with one arm or one leg or a 12" inseam to use their product, correct? And the same should hold true for the manufacturers of other products.

There was a kerfuffle in San Francisco many years ago with protestors chaining themselves to cable cars and demanding they be wheel chair accessible. It was thrown out because the cable cars have historic landmark status.

Irrational Voice
07-31-2009, 1:31 PM
Eh, I've got quite a few problems with the ADA. Too open for abuse. Like in Squeeze Inn's case, in Sacramento. Lady went around just looking for places to sue. Even though the employees bent over backwards to serve her in a building not cut out for wheelchairs, she still sues the pants off them, forcing them to move from their original location :(

the Squeeze Inn moved? That sucks. I hate mean people

nicki
07-31-2009, 1:34 PM
The issue is not that Manufacturer's have to make their products ADA compliant, that would kill the economy.

The issue is that Manufacturer's can't make ADA compliant products, perhaps the Manufacturer's may want to foot the bill since it would increase business.

After all, a pistol grip is easier to hold than a traditional rifle.

Nicki

Fjold
07-31-2009, 2:08 PM
A bicycle manufacturer doesn't have to make a bike to fit someone with a 12" inseam but the State or a bike park cannot ban a bike that does.

When I was a kid they tried to ban recumbent bicycles in some places because they said that they were too short to see in traffic and presented a road hazrd. Under the ADA a law like this would not be considered now.

packnrat
07-31-2009, 3:56 PM
Small bikes are already being made.
Working a bike with one foot is already being done.
(a bike messanger in new York city).
Even clipless pedals fit here.
But I may be fourced to buy a recumbet bike, do to a bad back.
Back to the thread. Yes the little people (if using the correct pc words) need to get together and do a "Ada" thing on ca.

gun toting monkeyboy
07-31-2009, 4:35 PM
Eh, I've got quite a few problems with the ADA. Too open for abuse. Like in Squeeze Inn's case, in Sacramento. Lady went around just looking for places to sue. Even though the employees bent over backwards to serve her in a building not cut out for wheelchairs, she still sues the pants off them, forcing them to move from their original location :(

Actually, if the current location can't be modified for use by a wheelchair for reasonable amount of money, the modifications would then be considered "unreasonable", and the owner wouldn't have to do it. So you can't be forced to spend $25k just so some whiny Bit** can get her way. They had the same kind of problem with a guy in LA playing the same games, and the courts yelled at him and banned him from filing any more. There is a lot of potential for abuse with the ADA, but like I said, it has teeth. It could be a really useful weapon if we can get some people with disabilities to file suits against the state. I think weeman should get a 11.5 inch AR as a reasonable accomadation...

-Mb

Lancear15
07-31-2009, 4:41 PM
Next on A&E: Little people, Big Barrel.

LOL

GoodEyeSniper
07-31-2009, 7:37 PM
Actually, if the current location can't be modified for use by a wheelchair for reasonable amount of money, the modifications would then be considered "unreasonable", and the owner wouldn't have to do it. So you can't be forced to spend $25k just so some whiny Bit** can get her way. They had the same kind of problem with a guy in LA playing the same games, and the courts yelled at him and banned him from filing any more. There is a lot of potential for abuse with the ADA, but like I said, it has teeth. It could be a really useful weapon if we can get some people with disabilities to file suits against the state. I think weeman should get a 11.5 inch AR as a reasonable accomadation...

-Mb

That very well could be the case, this might just be a bad case of bad attorney recommendation. I think I read that they simply weren't going to try and fight it, and were switching locations, even though I think Squeeze Inn, in one form or another, had been at that location for 40+ years.

DRM6000
07-31-2009, 8:09 PM
umm...wouldn't a shorter stock accomodate them? 6" stock, 16" barrel and at least 4" for the receiver and you've got the 26" min. length. (ca need not apply)

Stubby
07-31-2009, 10:51 PM
+ 1 to going after them anyway we can!!!

As someone who is "disabled" I can tell you it is a absolute pain trying to find a rifle that fits me like the collapsible stock AR-15 that I used when I lived in Arizona. SBR, SBS, Collapsing stock rifle/shotguns are more appropriate for a large section of society. Short people, smaller framed women and people like me with one hand and short on top of it all:D

ke6guj
07-31-2009, 11:06 PM
umm...wouldn't a shorter stock accomodate them? 6" stock, 16" barrel and at least 4" for the receiver and you've got the 26" min. length. (ca need not apply)the long barrel might not balance well for a little person. They may need a collapsable-stock and a 10" barrel to comfortably/safely handle it.

7x57
08-01-2009, 12:28 AM
the long barrel might not balance well for a little person. They may need a collapsable-stock and a 10" barrel to comfortably/safely handle it.

Must be getting late, this is what that brought to mind:



"Well, this one seems OK."

"No, that has a sixteen inch barrel. You need a 10" barrel for balance and safety."

"Well, but it feels OK."

"I SAID, you need a 10" barrel. No more than 12" at the outside."

"Why are you being nasty about this? I said this one's OK."

<picks up by lapels and shouts>

"I SAID, YOU NEED A 10" BARREL. GOT IT? DO YOU?!?"

"Yyyyes. Whatever you say. 10" barrel it is. Just put me down."

"So you want the one with the 10" barrel now?"

"Yes, that's what I said. I want the one with the 10" barrel. I, uh, need it for balance and safety."

"Excellent. Say, have you ever thought of being a litigant in a precedent-setting lawsuit? We've been looking for a plaintiff like you."

7x57

ke6guj
08-01-2009, 12:36 AM
that's just wrong :D

7x57
08-01-2009, 12:40 AM
that's just wrong :D

Sometimes you have to think outside the box to get the plaintiffs you need. :D

7x57

artherd
08-01-2009, 1:53 AM
7x57: you looking for a job? :D

Californio
08-01-2009, 10:43 AM
Contact this guy, on his TLC show he has been shown shooting a shotgun with the kids. He lives on a small farm in Oregon.

http://mattroloff.com/

ke6guj
08-01-2009, 10:52 AM
here is the episode in question.

MVpgk7INInw
c7yllqC3dUo

Full Clip
08-01-2009, 10:55 AM
I'm picturing that dwarf hooker in "Total Recall" spraying her attackers with a full auto something (can't remember). She didn't seem to have any trouble.

I've met Debbie Carrington. Nice lady.
BTW, the term "midget" is not proper. "Little person" is preferred.

motorhead
08-01-2009, 10:57 AM
Does trying to go the ADA route put any responsibility on manufacturers to make some or all of their products ADA compliant? Who foots the bill for this - the manufacturer or the disabled person?

Stepping outside the gun field, I'm presuming a bicycle manufacturer is not required to come up with a bike or accomodation that would allow someone with one arm or one leg or a 12" inseam to use their product, correct? And the same should hold true for the manufacturers of other products.

but suppose said bicycle was not deemed to be street legal by cvc. that's the point of attack. there is quite a cottage industry in vehicle accessability.

ke6guj
08-01-2009, 10:58 AM
BTW, the term "midget" is not proper. "Little person" is preferred.yup, I know. Unfortunately the youtube clips I found said midget and not dwarf or little person.

motorhead
08-01-2009, 11:07 AM
:43:not to mention, you get few hits searching for "little people porn".

tyrist
08-01-2009, 1:14 PM
Getting SBR/SBS for little people will never work. The argument will just be that a reasonable accommodation is having a bi-pod on the end of the firearm.

7x57
08-01-2009, 5:27 PM
7x57: you looking for a job? :D

Why, you have one yelling at and generally abusing little people? :eek:

7x57

TheBundo
08-02-2009, 12:45 PM
I've met Debbie Carrington. Nice lady.
BTW, the term "midget" is not proper. "Little person" is preferred.

Only until everyone adapts to it. Then they'll change the term again. Got to keep everyone off balance

AJAX22
08-02-2009, 7:50 PM
This is a real issue, even for people who are not legally 'little people'

I cut down the stock on a .22LR so it would fit my wife and needed to cut the barrel down so she could hold it up (she's little, 5' and one half an inch) but I had to abandon the project.... In order to make the damn thing balance/point properly I'd have had to go below 16 inches... which is not legal.

because she's had such a miserable time getting a gun that fits her she's really not into shooting at all.

Fjold
08-02-2009, 8:02 PM
This is a real issue, even for people who are not legally 'little people'

I cut down the stock on a .22LR so it would fit my wife and needed to cut the barrel down so she could hold it up (she's little, 5' and one half an inch) but I had to abandon the project.... In order to make the damn thing balance/point properly I'd have had to go below 16 inches... which is not legal.

because she's had such a miserable time getting a gun that fits her she's really not into shooting at all.


A friend had a rifle made for his 10 yr old daughter (4' tall) he had the stock cut down and re-shaped and then had a 16", Number 1 contour barrel in 260 Rem put on it that balanced beautifully.