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artherd
07-30-2009, 12:36 AM
A big part of CGF is staying in tune with our members, donors, and our community at large.

In the past years CGF founders have brought you OLLs, fought the OAL, and caused AB2728.

We have defended a dozen wrongly-accused FFLs and individuals who would have had little choice but to take a plea otherwise.

RIGHT NOW we are suing the State for Shall Issue CCW, and to eliminate the handgun ban list. We are also suing DC for same.

We have more lawsuits in the pipeline. Some very big ones.



I want to open up a poll, tell us how you think we're doing so far, and how we can do better.

nick
07-30-2009, 12:57 AM
Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries! Otherwise you're going VG+ to excellent. The stock could use refinishing though :)

Seesm
07-30-2009, 1:27 AM
I think great but I answered bad cuz it made me laugh the elderberry dealio!!

Theseus
07-30-2009, 1:33 AM
I can't slight you for doing what the majority of your members want.

I don't agree with some of the ideas, but you do seem to bring the crowd.

Good enough for me.

johnny_22
07-30-2009, 6:45 AM
I would proudly put my card next to my NRA, CRPA, SAF, AOC, and IEEE membership cards.

Please, keep up the good work. I'll do what I can with donations, emails, faxes letters, and calls to the legislature, as needed.

Irrational Voice
07-30-2009, 6:59 AM
There are CGF "members?"

artherd
07-30-2009, 7:04 AM
Technically, we're not legally a membership organization at this time. Looking into it.

B Strong
07-30-2009, 7:05 AM
The CGF is doing what CRPA and the NRA should have done years back, and is doing it with style.

I donate every month, and will continue to do so.

SkyStorm82
07-30-2009, 7:25 AM
The CGF is doing what CRPA and the NRA should have done years back, and is doing it with style.

I donate every month, and will continue to do so.

Tell me about it. What the hell have they (CRPA and the NRA) been doing all this time?

CGF has done a lot in the short time it's been around.

bwiese
07-30-2009, 9:15 AM
Tell me about it. What the hell have they (CRPA and the NRA) been doing all this time?

CGF has done a lot in the short time it's been around.

We enjoy the kind words.

However the NRA & CRPA is "you" (meaning "us"). We just didn't have people on the ground to hear about cases and be willing take action in the manner we do. Also, NRA/CRPA are primarily political animals with legal stuff as sometimes a secondary agenda except for national and key state issue. I think the onset of OLL stuff and drama about regulation, plus BWO's situation, gave us confidence we could act and get things done.

We're kinda taking a 'ground up' legal strategy for the various crim. defenses we've had.

wash
07-30-2009, 9:26 AM
I wonder if the CGF could tell us how it's doing?

I know you could always use more money, but with the economy the way it is (my salary has taken a hit), I am holding back.

If there is an immediate need I would like to know because I want to give, it's just hard to justify.

Thanks for the hard work.

gregorylucas
07-30-2009, 9:37 AM
I think we are doing well. It certainly seems that we bring a variety of opinions to the surface for all to view. Also we seem to have alot of intellectual firepower in our corner (Thanks Bill and Gene).

Greg

Nodda Duma
07-30-2009, 10:18 AM
You guys are doing what CRPA should have been doing all along. The gun laws in CA are easy to knock down, requiring only patience and hard work to do so. It speaks volumes that CGF has accomplished so much in such a short time period. I think CRPA and NRA got into a mode of thinking here in CA that caused them to stagnate and become powerless. Keep thinking outside the box.

I have seen CGF begin to coordinate with CRPA and NRA. I think this is a good thing, however don't lose your focus in the process. Don't fall into lockstep with them: You've shown you can and rightfully should be leading the way in turning CA gun rights around. Your continuing success allows you the ability to call the shots in CA.

At the same time, their support is essential. I would like to see CGF reach out beyond California as well, to begin educating those in the free world about what is going on in California. OLL's are a BIG DEAL, but I have seen barely a peep in popular gun literature. I think this is a failing on the part of the NRA...and my theory is it's because they are too proud to admit they haven't led that effort. Getting over that is their problem, and it would be nice to see an article or two in a mag like American Rifleman talking about how things have changed in California. Why in an NRA publication? Because your typical gun owners will be much more receptive to an article from an NRA publication than they would be to "California whiners".

In addition, a reference document for use by out-of-state dealers and vendors would be nice. The go-to reference for what can be shipped where. Something that could be sent to big vendors like Sportsman's Warehouse, Century Arms, etc. Obviously, this is the work for a lawyer...

It's worth saying again: We need to make progress in changing "free worlder's" attitude towards California gun owners. You guys have enough clout to begin doing so. I have seen at least one forum implement a sales rule that states if a firearm is legal for sale in an area, then the seller must offer it for sale there (a no "No Sales to California" rule). I'd love to see that implemented on gunbroker. I tend to think that our efforts here will always be hindered by the attitude we see towards California and California gun owners.

-Jason

1BigPea
07-30-2009, 10:58 AM
CGF is doing great things. I'm a proud California gun owner and I'm proud to be a part of CGF.


Keep up the good work.

CoinStar
07-30-2009, 11:04 AM
....and how we can do better.

1) Ditch the (at times) dismissive attitudes and be more selective with the doom & gloom*.

*For instance: We don't need to hear that the world will come to an end if someone who isn't prepped for media events happens to get on an informal radio program.

2) Don't perpetuate outright lies about how supporting a candidate in a local sheriff's race will unhinge a vague "grand plan" regarding statewide CCW issuance and then backpedal on what was being implied when your bluff is called.

3) Lay off the "sell out" and "glue-huffer" sentiments for those who disagree with all or parts of your methods.

4) Don't substitute pointing out the past or present **** ups of notable gun rights organizations as a replacement for touting your own real successes.

5) Thank, rather than chastise, those who try to keep you honest.

Lancear15
07-30-2009, 11:07 AM
Technically, we're not legally a membership organization at this time. Looking into it.

CGF is doing great, but there is still so much room to grow, like above ^

KylaGWolf
07-30-2009, 11:10 AM
Technically, we're not legally a membership organization at this time. Looking into it.

Well I would join this if it were an official organization but lets try to keep the "dues" reasonable if possible :)

sorensen440
07-30-2009, 11:19 AM
I think your doing great considering what you have to work with

ETA: to clarify "what you have to work with" I'm referring to our screwy legal system

Doheny
07-30-2009, 11:27 AM
For those of us not up to speed, why don't you explain more about who you are (CGF), who's involved, what you do, where the money comes from and how much it takes to run the operation.

Legasat
07-30-2009, 11:28 AM
You guys are doing "something", so that's a very welcome change. I voted GREAT, because of the law suits. A step in the right direction for sure.

Hopi
07-30-2009, 11:30 AM
For those of us not up to speed, why don't you explain more about who you are (CGF), who's involved, what you do, where the money comes from and how much it takes to run the operation.

Here you go... (http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/)

7x57
07-30-2009, 11:42 AM
For those of us not up to speed, why don't you explain more about who you are (CGF), who's involved, what you do, where the money comes from and how much it takes to run the operation.

>2000 posts and you ask this question? It's a strange, strange world.

7x57

RobG
07-30-2009, 11:45 AM
I said great although I love this; your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries:D

Nodda Duma
07-30-2009, 11:49 AM
>2000 posts and you ask this question? It's a strange, strange world.

7x57

Even I can tell he was asking a lead-in question there. You know what a lead-in question is, right? A friendly member of the audience gives you the perfect opportunity to make your best selling points.

If you met someone on the street with no access to the internet, what would you hand them to describe CGF? Better yet, if an NRA exec asked you his question...let's say in preparation for major coordination of lawsuit action here in CA and beyond, what would you say in response? I don't think you would reply ">2000 posts and you ask this question? It's a strange, strange world."

-Jason

JarenC81
07-30-2009, 11:49 AM
Just to mirror what coinstar said, the elitism gets a bit old.

Personally, if you're asking for donations from us I'd prefer a bit more transperancy too.

Other than that, the results speak for themselves.

7x57
07-30-2009, 11:52 AM
1) Ditch the (at times) dismissive attitudes and be more selective with the doom & gloom*.

*For instance: We don't need to hear that the world will come to an end if someone who isn't prepped for media events happens to get on an informal radio program.

2) Don't perpetuate outright lies about how supporting a candidate in a local sheriff's race will unhinge a vague "grand plan" regarding statewide CCW issuance and then backpedal on what was being implied when your bluff is called.

3) Lay off the "sell out" and "glue-huffer" sentiments for those who disagree with all or parts of your methods.

4) Don't substitute pointing out the past or present **** ups of notable gun rights organizations as a replacement for touting your own real successes.

5) Thank, rather than chastise, those who try to keep you honest.

In other words, betray all the things that make CGF effective in favor of the favorite strategies of those who prefer a kind of purity to winning.

No, thanks. I wouldn't support that kind of organization. I like my money to actually do something useful. We already have a GOC, and do not require another.

7x57

artherd
07-30-2009, 11:55 AM
I'd bother to respond but you're just a sell out glue huffer sheriff supporter( huh?) who's gonna cost us CCW just like the rest of the CRPA!

How'd I do ? ;)

Oh, almost forgot, GOD HELP US ALL if you keep talking to the media! :)

Kidding. CGF is listening. Hence this thread. Keep the feedback coming!


1) Ditch the (at times) dismissive attitudes and be more selective with the doom & gloom*.

*For instance: We don't need to hear that the world will come to an end if someone who isn't prepped for media events happens to get on an informal radio program.

2) Don't perpetuate outright lies about how supporting a candidate in a local sheriff's race will unhinge a vague "grand plan" regarding statewide CCW issuance and then backpedal on what was being implied when your bluff is called.

3) Lay off the "sell out" and "glue-huffer" sentiments for those who disagree with all or parts of your methods.

4) Don't substitute pointing out the past or present **** ups of notable gun rights organizations as a replacement for touting your own real successes.

5) Thank, rather than chastise, those who try to keep you honest.

artherd
07-30-2009, 11:58 AM
For those of us not up to speed, why don't you explain more about who you are (CGF), who's involved, what you do, where the money comes from and how much it takes to run the operation.

No problem, but a bit beyond the scope of this thread. I'll try to tackle it anyway. Check the link in my signature to get started.

10 second summary:

What is CGF: We're a (pending) 501(c)3 nonprofit that 9 of us founded to Defend the wrongly accused, Educate the LEO, DOJ, and layperson, and ultimately to defend your 2nd amendment rights in court.

Who's involved: http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/board

Where's the Money from: Donations, mostly from Calguners but many from gun related businesses.

How much: CGF presently has 0 admin overhead. That's right. 0. Our office space, phone, internet, and admin is donated by members of our board and other Proud Donors. As a result - your money goes straight to lawsuits. Eventually we may hire a staffer or two, but mark my words as your Treasurer that CGF will always be one of the most efficient non-profits in the world.

Our 990s will be public record, but we're not even in our first year of existence yet, so I can't link you to them.

artherd
07-30-2009, 12:04 PM
Personally, if you're asking for donations from us I'd prefer a bit more transperancy too.

What would you like to see?

kalguns
07-30-2009, 12:07 PM
I think you guys are doing an amazing job! Keep up the good work. Except your knowledge of trench excavation could use some work.:D

7x57
07-30-2009, 12:07 PM
Even I can tell he was asking a lead-in question there. You know what a lead-in question is, right? A friendly member of the audience gives you the perfect opportunity to make your best selling points.


While there may well have been a subtext there, it isn't so clear it is the one you describe. While the question may have been rhetorical, it may just as easily be intended to imply "nothing that I see, justify yourself." To use your rather pointlessly condescending words, "you do know what a rhetorical question is, right?" Given the recent flamage about UOC, the context suggests that the intended subtext might be what CoinStar simply chose to be more blunt and explicit about. There seems to be plenty of ill-will about CGF's lack of support for UOC, though as I don't know the poster's history so I can't say if he's expressed an opinion on that.

In any case, as it isn't clear, I chose not to interpret any possible subtext. That's the problem with rhetorical questions--they depend on effectively communicating the subtext to a perceptive audience.


If you met someone on the street with no access to the internet, what would you hand them to describe CGF?


Irrelevant, since they would not then have 2000 posts on CG. If they did, I assuredly would not hand them anything to describe CGF.


Better yet, if an NRA exec asked you his question...let's say in preparation for major coordination of lawsuit action here in CA and beyond, what would you say in response?


Again irrelevant, for the same reason. Any NRA exec with 2000 CG posts either know what CGF is or will not learn from anything I say.


I don't think you would reply ">2000 posts and you ask this question? It's a strange, strange world."


Actually, if they had >2000 posts I assuredly would, unless I chose not to simply out of politeness.

In any case, which line do you choose to argue? That the poster asked a rhetorical question, or that it was to be taken at face value? A leading question is the former, but now you're arguing the latter.

7x57

Hopi
07-30-2009, 12:16 PM
What would you like to see?

Take your top off!

FreedomIsNotFree
07-30-2009, 12:30 PM
I'm curious as to what role CGF played in AB2728.

Overall I believe CGF is doing a great job. The elitism does get a bit thick at times but more so from those that wish they were one of "the right people".

wildhawker
07-30-2009, 12:31 PM
Winning does taste good, Guy. Try some.

bwiese
07-30-2009, 12:35 PM
Just to mirror what coinstar said, the elitism gets a bit old.

Being correct is not elitism.

Also, understand that CGF board members also speak separately as individuals.

Personally, if you're asking for donations from us I'd prefer a bit more transperancy too.

We're working on that. We realize it's an issue esp as some of us as individuals have asked that from other orgs and they have been repsonding.

The real issue is that we don't wanna publicize exact details: "Joe Gunner got his ABC rifle back because Junior DA Shirley Antigunner of Pokus County got slammed with 2500 pages of material on what makes something an AW and realized she was over her head." By not dragging the jr DA thru the dirt we generally have 'rinse, lather, repeat'

To date we've handled approximately 20 cases. Most all were basic OLL vs AW dramas from indiviudals - mostly BB, a few MMG/featureless - with some hicap mag matters thrown in separately. You all also know about the Sonoma Firearms case that DOJ (Alison) was trying to drive at a local DA's office.

The 501c3 status should be 'real soon now', we've answered the IRS' questions and they seem satisfied.

Please be aware that 97% of funds given to CGF have gone to legal fees or our fighting reserves. A very small percentage, that 3% is guesswork and it could be 1% or 2.5% - is for certain basic overhead like setup of the 501c3 and other related legal paperwork. CGF board members are well-employed and have not taken money/ reimbursmenets for their activities and in fact pay their own way for CGF-related events (phones, gas, etc.) CGF's 'business presence' siting (mail address & admin support, meeting facilities, etc.) has been graciously provided by Gene Hoffman.

bwiese
07-30-2009, 12:43 PM
I'm curious as to what role CGF played in AB2728.

AB2728 was passed in 2006 and became active 1/1/2007.

CGF did not really exist until spring ? of last year. Before that, Gene and I and Oak and others were "working in formation" , getting alongside of cases, helping with defenses, etc.

AB2728 represented a confluence of forces & influences & politics. One particular DOJ lady, a public political employee, was mad at me for publishing her personal info and information about her political support - still readily Googleable in under 10 seconds - and this added an accelerant to the drama. DOJ thought they could redefine 'detachable magazine' without worry and felt like 'avoiding listing' could reduce drama - and that their redefinition would give us paperweights. Remember Bill Lockyer was running for Treasurer too and he didn't want the OLL crap to come back in his face.

At the same time DOJ FD staff also thought their was a real chance of Chuck Poochigian becoming AG. NRA politcal staff had much better political instincts (great county by county info) and knew Pooch was a loser and Brown would be a landslide. So they were able to use "Poochigian listing fear" to drive 2728's freezing of the list. They also were able to tighten the screws and add the civil compromise-in-place-of-wobbler-possession because the DOJ was pretty desparate.

bwiese
07-30-2009, 12:49 PM
There are CGF "members?"

For various reasons, there should be a CGF 'membership'.

We need to get to that point.

We've been a bit shy on the trivia because we've spent efforts getting folks outta the cooler.

Kestryll
07-30-2009, 12:49 PM
Take your top off!

Be careful what you ask for..

It's right after lunch, I'm the only one in my department and I've got a 'budda-belly' and a webcam...

bwiese
07-30-2009, 12:52 PM
Be careful what you ask for..

It's right after lunch, I'm the only one in my department and I've got a 'budda-belly' and a webcam...

I can lend you my unitard. Most of the stains have been dry-cleaned.

bodger
07-30-2009, 12:56 PM
This thread prompted me to make another donation to CGF.

I used PayPal, and had not noticed that the type of donation is called out as :
"Offensive Legal Activism"

I'm sure the antis find it pretty danged offensive. :43:

Doheny
07-30-2009, 1:09 PM
No problem, but a bit beyond the scope of this thread. I'll try to tackle it anyway. Check the link in my signature to get started.

Thanks...!

:)

Hopi
07-30-2009, 1:30 PM
Be careful what you ask for..

It's right after lunch, I'm the only one in my department and I've got a 'budda-belly' and a webcam...

I can lend you my unitard. Most of the stains have been dry-cleaned.

hmmmm...

Alright guys, I'm not gonna lie to you. This is gonna get kinda weird... Two dragons.

Irrational Voice
07-30-2009, 1:40 PM
One particular DOJ lady, a public political employee, was mad at me for publishing her personal info

I wasn't around when it happened but why on earth would you do something like that? I think that I saw another post where they said you posted her kids names too. I understand linking her political positions as that may well be pertinent to the gun rights issue but why her personal info and, if true, her kids names?

rkdrsx
07-30-2009, 1:58 PM
keep up the good fight. Membership? I got a spot in my wallet for another membership card

bwiese
07-30-2009, 2:14 PM
I wasn't around when it happened but why on earth would you do something like that? I think that I saw another post where they said you posted her kids names too.

Perhaps that was a misstep or overstep, but perhaps it was useful.

And her complaint is kinda irrelevant since Google and Zabasearch are out there with updated accurate-to-the minute information.

The weird thing is, her beef seems to have been more with my post of her contributions to Phil Anglelides' campaigns than any other publicity.

And given the attack on Ben Cannon and that there were apparenly investigations of various other Calgunners who were leader in the OLL drive for "conspiracy to build assault weapons", turnabout is fair play.

Irrational Voice
07-30-2009, 2:34 PM
And given the attack on Ben Cannon and that there were apparenly investigations of various other Calgunners who were leader in the OLL drive for "conspiracy to build assault weapons", turnabout is fair play.

So you did do that, and you feel it was justifiable?

ETA: if you had simply stopped after your first 7 words the post would have been considerably better.

CoinStar
07-30-2009, 3:56 PM
...sheriff supporter ( huh?) who's gonna cost us CCW ....

I'm not the one who makes up this stuff (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=2055439&postcount=172).


3. There is a statewide plan on CCW. LaSuer can indirectly severely harm it.

And when push came to shove, it was revealed that this "plan" was nothing but a philosophical argument... an unsound one at that too. Pure fear-mongering.

CoinStar
07-30-2009, 4:00 PM
In other words, betray all the things that make CGF effective in favor of the favorite strategies of those who prefer a kind of purity to winning.

No. Not "in other words"; in your words, yes. Those are your words.

CoinStar
07-30-2009, 4:07 PM
Also, understand that CGF board members also speak separately as individuals.

So?
There's no debate that legally you're a separate entity than your corporate self. That's just stating the obvious.

But what is said here within this venue does indeed count and reflects on the CGF on the whole. And considering that there's no process to select board members for those who are being asked to donate money, it counts quite a bit.

trashman
07-30-2009, 6:36 PM
So?
There's no debate that legally you're a separate entity than your corporate self. That's just stating the obvious.


Well hang on there - if that was a crime on this board then things would be awfully quiet :43: and most of the time, at that...

But seriously it does merit a reminder because it is an important distinction. Since Bill (and the board) is a volunteer I am not comfortable conflating his personal commentary with his 'official' commentary.


But what is said here within this venue does indeed count and reflects on the CGF on the whole. And considering that there's no process to select board members for those who are being asked to donate money, it counts quite a bit.

Now I feel you on this point, and I imagine it's eventually something that CGF will likely address down the road (e.g., selection process) --- but I would offer that the non-CGF comments that Bill makes (that you disagree with) are more than offset by the fact that the entire board, including Bill, are unpaid volunteers who have sacrificed a whole lotta time on the average gunny's behalf. Bill has been hacking away at this stuff for quite a while.

As a multi-OLL owner (and non-Rostered S&W wheelgun accumulator) I am grateful for the sacrifice these guys are making. I don't necessarily agree with everything they all say all the time either -- but that's just the way the world works, isn't it?

And on some level, if you feel strongly enough about (CGF's position on whatever issue displeases you) then as a fellow citizen and voter I would certainly encourage you to set up an organization to rally, raise money and awareness, and act as a reasonably independent broker for that cause.

But as someone who has watched politics on this issue for a long time, I am grateful for their behind-the-curtain non-fire-breathing approach.

--Neill

locosway
07-30-2009, 6:55 PM
I like what the CGF is doing, and the current handgun roster needs to be removed. The other issue is CCW reform. I do want CCW reform, but I'd also like LOC more I think. Granted CCW seems to be more in line with carry everywhere than LOC.

hoffmang
07-30-2009, 8:37 PM
And when push came to shove, it was revealed that this "plan" was nothing but a philosophical argument... an unsound one at that too. Pure fear-mongering.

I am not speaking as a representative of CGF here. I told you point blank that La Suer attempted to pass a law that would ban guns and create constructive possession of assault weapons. Incompetence can be just as bad as being anti-gun. You conveniently pull one of many of my quotes out of a thread whose outcome you didn't like.

-Gene

GoodEyeSniper
07-30-2009, 8:55 PM
From this new member's perspective you're doing great. Opened up my eyes a ton when I joined here. Hopefully be able to donate soon, gotta feed myself in the meantime.

artherd
07-30-2009, 9:17 PM
I'm curious as to what role CGF played in AB2728.

The people who would become CGF brought you OLLs, and (working with NRA) AB2728. CGF was at most draft set of articles at that time.

artherd
07-30-2009, 9:29 PM
I wasn't around when it happened but why on earth would you do something like that? I think that I saw another post where they said you posted her kids names too. I understand linking her political positions as that may well be pertinent to the gun rights issue but why her personal info and, if true, her kids names?

She digs into us, we're going to dig back. Everything posted is public record, perhaps AM should be more careful? Besides, if she's obeying the law, then what does she have to hide or fear? Google Alison Merrilees.

artherd
07-30-2009, 10:37 PM
And on some level, if you feel strongly enough about (CGF's position on whatever issue displeases you) then as a fellow citizen and voter I would certainly encourage you to set up an organization to rally, raise money and awareness, and act as a reasonably independent broker for that cause.

Oh he did. He's CRPA.

FreedomIsNotFree
07-30-2009, 10:59 PM
The people who would become CGF brought you OLLs, and (working with NRA) AB2728. CGF was at most draft set of articles at that time.

I recall the timing of both AB2728 and the inception of CGF...that's what drew the inquiry.

Irrational Voice
07-30-2009, 10:59 PM
She digs into us, we're going to dig back. Everything posted is public record, perhaps AM should be more careful? Besides, if she's obeying the law, then what does she have to hide or fear? Google Alison Merrilees.

I suppose it's like hiring a lawyer, it's good to know there is no limit to the depths to which some will stoop.

thatrogue
07-31-2009, 12:00 AM
I finally kicked down a few bucks via paypal

artherd
07-31-2009, 12:16 AM
I suppose it's like hiring a lawyer, it's good to know there is no limit to the depths to which some will stoop.

Indeed - if I had a lawyer who wouldn't use Google out of "principle", I'd fire him :)

artherd
07-31-2009, 12:24 AM
I recall the timing of both AB2728 and the inception of CGF...that's what drew the inquiry.

CGF spent a lot of time as an idea - a "we'll get around to it one day" The concept that would become CGF was floating around as early as the OLL days back in 2005.

artherd
07-31-2009, 3:53 AM
Take your top off!

http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:U1KK-GT5T6Lz4M:http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e314/HannahBananaSausage/angel-smiley-029.gif%3Ft%3D1193346578

Sunwolf
07-31-2009, 6:03 AM
Membership dues,member cards and a quarterly newsletter.

wildhawker
07-31-2009, 8:15 AM
Oh he did. He's CRPA.

Really... can't say I'm surprised.

trashman
07-31-2009, 8:18 AM
Really... can't say I'm surprised.

I'm surprised. I would have expected less snarking and more constructiveness.

That explains the board selection criticism, though...:rolleyes:

--Neill

sorensen440
07-31-2009, 8:19 AM
I'm surprised. I would have expected less snarking and more constructiveness.

That explains the board selection criticism, though...:rolleyes:

--Neill
IIRC old gaurd crpa

wildhawker
07-31-2009, 8:59 AM
Neill,

From my perspective, CRPA tossed us a bone to shut us up and I'd be willing to bet that there are many within the CRPA who resent the encroachment upon their territory. As much as I wish it weren't the case, I think we'll see this as a growing trend.

I'm surprised. I would have expected less snarking and more constructiveness.

That explains the board selection criticism, though...:rolleyes:

--Neill

trashman
07-31-2009, 9:11 AM
From my perspective, CRPA tossed us a bone to shut us up and I'd be willing to bet that there are many within the CRPA who resent the encroachment upon their territory.

Yep, that does make sense. Change is often resisted for the sake of resisting it.

--Neill

wash
07-31-2009, 9:26 AM
If CGF is set up to just be a legal defense fund, the only power the board really has is to decide which cases get the money.

Why does a CRPA member have a problem with that? Is he in jail?

No one is forcing people to donate to CGF and since it isn't a membership organization yet (except for board members), no one can say I'm a member and I don't like what they are doing.

I've made a couple small donations and I would like to be a member when you set that up. I like the board you have.

A membership card would be nice but I don't need a quarterly newsletter. Keep it to emails or maybe even twitter updates.

I would like to see a graph of the foundation's cash reserves, a list of currently active big cases, a score card of victories in smaller cases (no names required) and an outline of lawyers fees so that we can tell how much of a legal fight CGF can afford.

If I knew CGF was going to SCOTUS and they didn't have at least a couple hundred thousand dollars in the bank, I would donate right away.

sorensen440
07-31-2009, 9:28 AM
If CGF is set up to just be a legal defense fund, the only power the board really has is to decide which cases get the money.


CGF is not a legal defense fund

wash
07-31-2009, 9:40 AM
Well, they do litigation, not lobbying, what is that called?

Kestryll
07-31-2009, 9:49 AM
CGF is more of a legal defense/legal offense organization.

As a non-profit we do not lobby however we can bring legal cases that directly affect our 2A rights.
We don't just wait for things to go bad and defend, we take the fight to them.

Irrational Voice
07-31-2009, 12:13 PM
Indeed - if I had a lawyer who wouldn't use Google out of "principle", I'd fire him :)

Do you really think that is what my post was referencing?

wildhawker
07-31-2009, 12:31 PM
IV, Why not say it and stop beating around the bush?

Irrational Voice
07-31-2009, 12:38 PM
IV, Why not say it and stop beating around the bush?

I didn't realize I was beating around the bush.

Publicly posting personal information about people with whom you are in a legal battle is low and not worthy of good people. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear, I was not trying to beat around the bush.

M. D. Van Norman
07-31-2009, 12:40 PM
I think the Calguns Foundation is doing a great job. Though no one is perfect, it is probably the best thing to come from the synergy created by Calguns.net itself.

Yes, the economy is tough right now. My wife and I have both taken pay cuts, but I will continue to contribute whatever funds I can. I challenge other right-to-arms advocates to do the same.

Cr6IC
07-31-2009, 1:19 PM
The fact that you all are doing this for no compensation really resonates with me. This is not a job, or career choice for you guys - it's a passion.

CoinStar
07-31-2009, 1:32 PM
I am not speaking as a representative of CGF here. I told you point blank that La Suer attempted to pass a law that would ban guns and create constructive possession of assault weapons. Incompetence can be just as bad as being anti-gun. You conveniently pull one of many of my quotes out of a thread whose outcome you didn't like.

Did you even read what I quoted? You weren't talking about AB 2218 when you claimed that a "statewide plan on CCW" was in the works and that Jay's run for sheriff down here would threaten that plan. And when the revelation came that no such "plan" actually existed and that there was no way to connect Jay's role as sheriff to the claimed potential disaster, you tucked tail and avoided addressing your outright lie.

As for the outcome of that thread, your philosophical argument along the lines of "if we don't show anti-gunners (Jay) what's what, we'll have trouble getting state legislators to introduce pro-gun measures" flew out the window when AB357 was introduced.

....and you avoided addressing that too.

Back on topic: Sure, praise is in order for what you do do right. This thread asks for opinions on what should change. I gave you mine; stop with the fear-mongering, the elitism, etc.

Take it or leave it. I don't care.

CoinStar
07-31-2009, 1:34 PM
Oh he did. He's CRPA.

Proof?

hoffmang
07-31-2009, 2:07 PM
Back on topic: Sure, praise is in order for what you do do right. This thread asks for opinions on what should change. I gave you mine; stop with the fear-mongering, the elitism, etc.


My or Bill's comment on La Suer's willingness to sell gunnies down the river is made by Bill or me - not by CGF. CGF doesn't comment on candidates for elected office. As such, it is something that you think I am not doing right. CGF did nothing there. But I do realize that you don't like not winning the argument with me and would like to tar CGF with that.

You quoted one of the many reasons I don't think we (California gun owners )should support La Seur. I leave the context of that thread to speak for itself because you certainly don't wish it to be seen in its full context.

-Gene

510dat
07-31-2009, 2:33 PM
Personally, if you're asking for donations from us I'd prefer a bit more transperancy too.


We're working on that. We realize it's an issue esp as some of us as individuals have asked that from other orgs and they have been repsonding.

The real issue is that we don't wanna publicize exact details: "Joe Gunner got his ABC rifle back because Junior DA Shirley Antigunner of Pokus County got slammed with 2500 pages of material on what makes something an AW and realized she was over her head." By not dragging the jr DA thru the dirt we generally have 'rinse, lather, repeat'

To date we've handled approximately 20 cases. Most all were basic OLL vs AW dramas from indiviudals - mostly BB, a few MMG/featureless - with some hicap mag matters thrown in separately. You all also know about the Sonoma Firearms case that DOJ (Alison) was trying to drive at a local DA's office.


Bill, Gene, et. al:

I think that this website and CGF are doing great things for our benefit, and I'm impressed and delighted with the amount of cooperation between the NRA, CGF and now CRPA. Thanks to you all who are moving big rocks with long levers, so to speak.

I appreciate your discretion, and that often publicizing details is counter-productive. If your jr. DA knows she's going to get dragged through the muck every time we win, she'll fight a lot harder against us.

However, it's very frustrating as an observer to know that "something" is going on, but not to know even any broad concept of what's going on behind the scenes.

Some Cliff's Notes to the effect of "In the last three months, CGF helped X number of people get back Y number of scary-looking rifles back from law enforcement." would be a great start.

Legal cases I'm sure are also tricky, but, for example, my big interest is getting a CCW (of which I have no hope unless the laws change), and as far as I know, the only group doing much about that is Billy Jack and his group. I'm pretty sure that CGF is doing "something" in that department, but I don't know anything for sure. Give me some hope, basically.

Thank you all for your hard work; it's appreciated.

M. D. Van Norman
07-31-2009, 3:36 PM
http://www.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/news/71-saf-calguns-challenge-arbitrary-denial-of-right-to-bear-arms-in-california

curtisfong
07-31-2009, 4:03 PM
My report card for CGF


Lawyering: A+
Source of legal information: A+
Keeping us updated on the latest court cases: A-
PR: B-
Legislative: C-


Granted, the last two aren't really part of CGF's job (as lawyers), but I can see two things that need to happen. Firstly, there has to be a better way to get involved in the committee hearings and lobbying that happens in Sac. The AB962 battle provided some good practice for some new strategies. Namely


Work on getting good representation in committee. We need smart, agile, non-partisan spokespeople fighting gun grabbing legislation in every committee. The other side does this - hell they do it so poorly, it should be easy to "win" some of those debates, whether it is in safety committee, or appropriations, or what have you.

We need to identify quickly who is likely to be "on the fence" in a vote. we need to focus on the people who do not necessarily have a horse in the race, and can be convinced with letters/faxes/emails. It is worthless to send letters to scum like DeLeon. Likewise, while reminding pro-gun politicians that we are watching them is important, it is not as important as trying to sway the votes that count, which are usually democrats (for better or for worse)


Secondly, somehow we need to get more broad based support from both sides of the electorate. Our battle is already lost if we know that every time RKBA legislation goes up for a vote, it will go along party lines. We will absolutely lose every single one of those votes, almost without exception. That is the reality here in CA. I don't know how that can tie in with CGF, but in CA, if we can't convert "liberals" or "democrats" we have no chance of winning anything.

Again, I know that isn't necessarily CGF's mission statement, but they are the "right people" for so many other things, I am almost positive they can make a big difference here.

ke6guj
07-31-2009, 4:05 PM
I don't think a 501(c)3 like CGF can politic like you want them to.

curtisfong
07-31-2009, 4:14 PM
In that case, A+ from me all around :punk:

But i would certainly appreciate advice from them, not to mention additional information about individual legislators, legal perspective on voting record, case law, etc. etc. which can all be bewildering for a layman like myself.

gn3hz3ku1*
07-31-2009, 4:15 PM
get us 1 set closer to CCW is almost as good as getting me one step closer to BB free AR/AKs.

these things just take time... thank God i plan to die in CA :)

hoffmang
07-31-2009, 4:17 PM
In that case, A+ from me all around :punk:

But i would certainly appreciate advice from them, not to mention additional information about individual legislators, legal perspective on voting record, case law, etc. etc. which can all be bewildering for a layman like myself.

Analyzing a bill for impact, CGF can do. Lobbying for a bill CGF could make an election later and do but can not do presently. Attempting to sway the outcome of an election, CGF can't do.

-Gene

Irrational Voice
07-31-2009, 5:31 PM
thank God i plan to die in CA :)

Just not because you were denied a CCW.

aplinker
07-31-2009, 7:32 PM
Gene/Bill/Kevin/Ben,

I know you've done this on an informal, individual basis in the past, but have you considered writing up a "formal" packet for firearms manufacturers to explain CA AW laws? Having it "lawyered up" with a 1-sheet cover letter would certainly help with the impact. It would also greatly benefit local ma & pop FFLs.

I would like to see more manufacturers willing to ship direct and many need the benefit of CG knowledge to know that this is possible. More manufacturers willing to modify to allow import would be nice. The trickle down to everyday shops, such as the recent appearance of Czechpoint VZ's in Turner's down here in SoCal, is a big deal - more of this would certainly be a good thing. As you well know, these rifles get people excited about firearms and our firearms rights. It has a big effect on generating interest among the next generation of gun owners.

The other thing that would be great is more "statistics." I know details aren't always possible, but a simple, "Defended AW charge in northern CA. All charges dropped." with the date, and keeping a running list, would be awesome as a "point of impact" for people to see. Keep it as a stick with limited postings (no chit-chat, just facts, as a "win list."

Otherwise, keep up the great work. I, and everyone else, definitely appreciate the strides that have been made, and all your efforts to make it happen.

artherd
07-31-2009, 9:57 PM
Firstly, there has to be a better way to get involved in the committee hearings and lobbying that happens in Sac.

As a 501(c)3, CGF is prohibited from engaging in the business of lobbying.

That said, we are working on being more effective in Sac, outside of CGF's umbrella.

You raise other good points on PR that I quite agree with, thank you.

jhaselton
08-01-2009, 1:01 AM
I've always wondered why you guys use PayPal for donations? Why support that anti-gun company and give them percentages of everyones donations?

ke6guj
08-01-2009, 1:23 AM
They accept Paypal even though it is anti-gun because some/many donors prefer to use paypal to send money, instead of cutting a check/MO, or setting up a free billpay through their bank's website.

So, CGF gets 97% of a donation if they accept PP instead of 0% of a donation if they don't.

artherd
08-01-2009, 1:52 AM
I've always wondered why you guys use PayPal for donations? Why support that anti-gun company and give them percentages of everyones donations?

gimmie two weeks :whistles:

leitung
08-01-2009, 2:09 AM
CGF=Awesome.. CGF has done more for California then the NRA, GOA, CRPA has ever dreamed of doing for California.

artherd
08-01-2009, 3:03 AM
Holding fast on 2'nd issues and tolerating all the diversity we have.

Thank you, it is not easy and we work hard at it. You have some other great suggestions as well.

Thank you all for your feedback in this thread, it will help lead to a better CGF!

artherd
08-01-2009, 3:04 AM
CGF=Awesome.. CGF has done more for California then the NRA, GOA, CRPA has ever dreamed of doing for California.

While that's quite flattering, it's not really accurate. You have an RKBA at all right now because of NRA make no mistake.

I am privileged to work closely with the NRA's top staff in CA - and they really toe the line when it comes to your rights. Did you know that NRA spends more in CA than everywhere else?

motorhead
08-01-2009, 11:22 AM
you guys rock! using our evil legal system against itself is poetic justice and cgf is the major player in that arena. we all have our parts to play, militant, lobbying, etc..

jhaselton
08-01-2009, 8:55 PM
I'm not trying to turn this into a "wish list" thread :)

But......... Why don't you have T-Shirts and Stickers available in every gun shop that will carry them? I would love to see Calguns gear in the gun stores. That way while I'm there I can purchase a shirt or stickers and know I'm supporting the CGF while I'm there too!

Can'thavenuthingood
08-01-2009, 9:46 PM
gimmie two weeks :whistles:

Ben I been waiting for a gun friendly version of PayPal to come along now for a little over 2 weeks, its out there somewhere.:)

Most all the folks that make a Calguns apparel purchase go through PayPal. The others use snail mail, average about 1 a month to the Post Office box.

Patiently waiting,

Vick

Can'thavenuthingood
08-01-2009, 10:06 PM
I'm not trying to turn this into a "wish list" thread :)

But......... Why don't you have T-Shirts and Stickers available in every gun shop that will carry them? I would love to see Calguns gear in the gun stores. That way while I'm there I can purchase a shirt or stickers and know I'm supporting the CGF while I'm there too!

Tied up money.

I sell the Calguns gear http://gunsr4.us/

To have all the items out there in all the gun shops is a huge inventory of T-shirts sized Sm-med-lg-xl-xxl-xxxl-xxxxl-xxxxxl and xxxxxxl, thats 9 sizes.

I currently have 16 T-shirt designs available for the male Calgunner.
So 9 x 16 = 144 shirts just for one each. From our experience at the gun shows we have scaled the stock down to 5 each of 3 sizes about 3 different designs. Brandon (wildhawker) and the event coordinator get together and figure out what they think they want to put on the tables.

This isn't a science yet and no real trends have been established regarding what sells throughout the state at all shows. Even attempting to account for regional differences in tastes etc was an effort in futility, so we rely on the local coordinator to know his/her market. Whodda thunk the heavy winter type camo Real Tree hats would be a sellout at the Cow Palace?

How many gun shops are there in California?
Which ones do we choose to stock with Calguns gear?
How much money do we want to have hanging out there and for how long?

One thing I have learned selling the Calguns apparel is that Calguns is a tough market. I never seem to have what they want in the right color, design or material.

This demographic is all over the map.

The women's apparel is just now coming online. I have 2 styles of shirts, a crew neck (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=200036) and then a V-neck will be out this next week in 17 colors and 8 sizes (http://www.portauthorityclothing.com/servlet/portAuthority?cat=Port-Company&top=229224&sub=229225&style=LPC61).

Maybe down the road we can get some things out there if things shape up economy wise.

Vick

jhaselton
08-02-2009, 2:11 AM
Tied up money.

Vick

I never expected CGF to supply them and then sit back and hope they get paid!

artherd
08-02-2009, 4:14 AM
Vick - working on solving the subject of BOTH your recent posts in this thread :D

Best!
-Ben.

motorhead
08-02-2009, 9:15 AM
none of the gun friendly paypal services ever seem to go anywhere, gearpay, bidpay, etc.

Can'thavenuthingood
08-02-2009, 9:38 AM
none of the gun friendly paypal services ever seem to go anywhere, gearpay, bidpay, etc.

Yeah I had GearPay setup but no one used it.

We need a California based transactionary entity. Hmmm, a new verb?adverb?:)
I'm not very good at my nounery's.

Vick

motorhead
08-02-2009, 11:16 PM
:43:PRK-pay.

ke6guj
08-02-2009, 11:30 PM
I think GunPal has a nice ring to it :D

artherd
08-02-2009, 11:39 PM
none of the gun friendly paypal services ever seem to go anywhere, gearpay, bidpay, etc.

Various reasons for that. For one it is incredibly difficult to start a payments processing company! The banking system as a whole does not want it - so you need someone who parties with the board members of banks, then someone who has the trust of the community at large, and has the pockets.

And THEN they need to be willing to do it!

After that, it's marketing. All of the above were missing at least one (and in most cases, ALL of the) critical element(s).

At any-rate, expect some interesting press releases from me coming very soon now.

wash
08-03-2009, 9:06 AM
I'm not trying to turn this into a "wish list" thread :)

But......... Why don't you have T-Shirts and Stickers available in every gun shop that will carry them? I would love to see Calguns gear in the gun stores. That way while I'm there I can purchase a shirt or stickers and know I'm supporting the CGF while I'm there too!
You're forgetting that most storefront FFL's dislike Calguns because people share information about how to purchase guns through kitchen table FFL's and save a lot of money.

I saved more than $300 on a Saiga 12 by going that route...

I doubt they would want to sell T-shirts.

tba02
08-03-2009, 1:00 PM
Various reasons for that. For one it is incredibly difficult to start a payments processing company!

At any-rate, expect some interesting press releases from me coming very soon now.

It sounds like you're on it, but https://www.revolutionmoneyexchange.com may be an option. I haven't been able to find anything in the TOS idicating they are anti-arm.

Can'thavenuthingood
08-03-2009, 1:13 PM
It sounds like you're on it, but https://www.revolutionmoneyexchange.com may be an option. I haven't been able to find anything in the TOS idicating they are anti-arm.

Well according to the 'About us' (https://www.revolutionmoneyexchange.com/WebSite/AboutUs.aspx) page on the site, one member was at the root of the subprime mortgage mess.

Frank Raines
Former Chairman & CEO, Fannie Mae; Previously head of OMB


Vick

JarenC81
08-03-2009, 2:14 PM
Being correct is not elitism.


ha, what a surprise. I've always wanted a vocabulary lesson from "the right people." My apologies, 10 lashes?

bplvr
08-03-2009, 3:45 PM
CGN 'membership' has grown by more than 10,000 in 5 months. Volunteers will stand in a 90 degree {F} building with a steel roof and no ventilation for 2 straight days to inform others of the CGN message. Volunteer rosters for the shows are almost full all the way to November. This is turning into a very strong grass roots regressive organization , and the spirit of the volunteers proves that CGN and CGF is on the correct track.
....and on donation cans in gun shops.....a can was placed at Gusslers at Christmas '08 and in 3 months that cashew can with a CGN 'disc' had collected about 50% of what we netted at the first Del Mar show. I would imagine a can at a store front shop would bring in $1,000.00 + /yr. ,and it could be a nice tax write off for them.