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bootcamp
07-29-2009, 4:10 PM
So can I legally have my unloaded and unchambered pistol inside this box with a loaded magazine sitting next to it also inside the box? At the same time with it all sitting under my seat or on top of my passenger seat?

If I can't have my mags in here, can my mags be in the glove compartment?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=462945

This is about the tinyiest case I could find out there that does not obviously resemble a gun case with a carry handle.

This can also be a quick and easy access if needed while at a rest stop or truck stop.

tombinghamthegreat
07-29-2009, 4:18 PM
You can have any type of locked container to not violate PC12025 like that or even a backpack with a lock on it. Yes it can be under the seat or where ever you want, glove box does not count. You can have the mags loaded, and you can even have the the ammo/loaded mags right next to the gun since it does not violate PC12031. Also you cannot conceal handguns(long guns can be concealed without lock) without a locked container but you can open carry them as long as you are not knowing near a K-12 school.

bootcamp
07-29-2009, 4:24 PM
That leads me to another question. Can I conceal this locked container inside my belt line, inside my pants?

If this is possible, it almost makes me want to fabricate a container that looks like the mold of my pistol with a lock on it. Then we could conceal holster that and put a mag in my jacket pocket. lol legal? hmm... let's hear from the experts!

Curtis
07-29-2009, 4:27 PM
Yes the case will work regardless of location in the car or location of mags.

Mstrty
07-30-2009, 12:47 AM
You have just sparked my brain. Can I conceal my handgun in a case that I wear IWB that used either a combo or fingerprint ID to remove from enclosed "case/holster" can I transport it this way. The Cops wouldnt even be able to disarm me without my fingerprint. or a plasma torch. Am I on to something or is it just getting late?

Decoligny
07-30-2009, 7:52 AM
You have just sparked my brain. Can I conceal my handgun in a case that I wear IWB that used either a combo or fingerprint ID to remove from enclosed "case/holster" can I transport it this way. The Cops wouldnt even be able to disarm me without my fingerprint. or a plasma torch. Am I on to something or is it just getting late?

If you could develop an IWB holster that was also a fully enclosed secure container that locked, then you would be "perfectly legal" (IANAL) as long as the gun inside was unloaded.

Mstrty
07-30-2009, 4:08 PM
If you could develop an IWB holster that was also a fully enclosed secure container that locked, then you would be "perfectly legal" (IANAL) as long as the gun inside was unloaded.

cant a locked gun be loaded. It doesnt really matter. A 10 second process to get gun in hand is better than having to go home and get a gun. :online2long: Im looking into my patent options now Ill get back to you with a prototype:)

Mstrty
07-30-2009, 4:58 PM
cant a locked gun be loaded. It doesnt really matter. A 10 second process to get gun in hand is better than having to go home and get a gun. :online2long: Im looking into my patent options now Ill get back to you with a prototype:)

Lookes like a locked case to me:eek:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29395&stc=1&d=1248998268

Decoligny
07-30-2009, 6:02 PM
cant a locked gun be loaded. It doesnt really matter. A 10 second process to get gun in hand is better than having to go home and get a gun. :online2long: Im looking into my patent options now Ill get back to you with a prototype:)

No it cannot be loaded.

lazyworm
07-30-2009, 6:14 PM
hmmm.. this got me thinking... what about something like...


http://www.triplek.com/site/img/mod/prod_large/286.jpg + http://www.germes-online.com/direct/dbimage/50137626/Double_Locking_Brass_Padlock.jpg?

(image links found on google, just for reference)

Decoligny
07-30-2009, 6:34 PM
hmmm.. this got me thinking... what about something like...


http://www.triplek.com/site/img/mod/prod_large/286.jpg + http://www.germes-online.com/direct/dbimage/50137626/Double_Locking_Brass_Padlock.jpg?

(image links found on google, just for reference)

As long as the leather portion completely enclosed the gun, I don't see a problem.

Mstrty
07-30-2009, 6:56 PM
Im surprised with Millions of americans unable to carry in California why hasn't someone come up with a way to carry with a gun specific molded case worn on your person. it has got to be possible to make a little ruger 380 wear like a fullsize with some sort of lockability. Id be happy to test drive any prototype someone comes up with.

Glock22Fan
07-30-2009, 7:43 PM
You have just sparked my brain. Can I conceal my handgun in a case that I wear IWB that used either a combo or fingerprint ID to remove from enclosed "case/holster" can I transport it this way. The Cops wouldnt even be able to disarm me without my fingerprint. or a plasma torch. Am I on to something or is it just getting late?

They're not getting a plasma torch inside my waistband :D

Mstrty
07-30-2009, 8:05 PM
They're not getting a plasma torch inside my waistband :D

OK Plasma might be a little drastic. Bolt cutters then?

gunsmith
07-30-2009, 8:56 PM
Im surprised with Millions of americans unable to carry in California why hasn't someone come up with a way to carry with a gun specific molded case worn on your person. it has got to be possible to make a little ruger 380 wear like a fullsize with some sort of lockability. Id be happy to test drive any prototype someone comes up with.

good idea

XDshooter
07-30-2009, 11:29 PM
You guys, please be careful about this when not in a vehicle.

This has been covered many many times.

When the locked case is in a motor vehicle, you can go anywhere via 12026.1

When not, as in on your person, you only are exempt from 12025 (concealed carry) via one of exemptions listed in 12026.2.

cassius
07-31-2009, 12:06 AM
Just make sure you find and print the actual code sections relevant to this and keep them IN the case. That way you might be able to quash and police foolishness over it right at the start.

SanSacto
07-31-2009, 12:25 AM
I thought it was best to carry the loaded mags outside the locked container...or is that just FUD? So is it okay to carry the loaded mags inside the locked container?

tombinghamthegreat
07-31-2009, 12:29 AM
I thought it was best to carry the loaded mags outside the locked container...or is that just FUD? So is it okay to carry the loaded mags inside the locked container?

Yes loaded mags in side the locked container, ammo/mags next to the gun is perfectly legal(PC12031, People vs Clark). That is FUD mostly spread by LEO, DOJ, gun ranges and/or FFL dealers.

The only exception is if you are a felon with a gun. I am not sure about the state capital???

Big Jake
07-31-2009, 6:41 AM
All of these carry ways may be legal in the technical sense, however, if you meet with an uninformed LEO then you will probably be arrested. Maybe not tried but you will take the ride!

I would not chance it. Lock it in your trunk!

Decoligny
07-31-2009, 9:15 AM
You guys, please be careful about this when not in a vehicle.

This has been covered many many times.

When the locked case is in a motor vehicle, you can go anywhere via 12026.1

When not, as in on your person, you only are exempt from 12025 (concealed carry) via one of exemptions listed in 12026.2.

You are exempt from 626.9 if the gun is fully enclosed in a locked container. Nothing says the container has to conceal the firearm.

You would not be in violation of 12025 if said container was transparent.

If someone made a clear lexan locking shell type case that went over an existing tactical holster and gun, then you would not be restricted to the 12026.2 destinations, and you would be free to UOC right through a GFSZ.

tiki
07-31-2009, 9:49 AM
http://www.center-of-mass.com/ (http://www.center-of-mass.com/)

bodger
07-31-2009, 12:25 PM
http://www.center-of-mass.com/ (http://www.center-of-mass.com/)

Very cool. I'm surprised we have not seen a version of one of these that can be worn on the belt.

bodger
07-31-2009, 12:26 PM
You are exempt from 626.9 if the gun is fully enclosed in a locked container. Nothing says the container has to conceal the firearm.

You would not be in violation of 12025 if said container was transparent.

If someone made a clear lexan locking shell type case that went over an existing tactical holster and gun, then you would not be restricted to the 12026.2 destinations, and you would be free to UOC right through a GFSZ.

What would you call that? Locked Unloaded Open Carry?

Mstrty
08-02-2009, 10:57 PM
Don't worry guys Ive fired up my Auto Cad . I will have a Prototype for you all to test soon at your local movie theater or starbucks soon. I think it will also need to have a lanyard locking it onto a belt loop as to ward off any removal by LEO without owners permission or destruction of property. I also think it should not be clear. Maybe red with the "Red Cross" logo on with the words "First Aid" under the cross. Any Suggestions to what gun to mold out first.

I think a run of 10k the first go around would be modest.::

Also is there a DOJ definition for "locked"

blerg
08-03-2009, 12:58 PM
Is there a proper definition of 'lock'?

Would the following mechanisms be considered 'locks'?

-thumbprint reader
-magnetical card reader
-radio frequency mechanism (think of garage door opener)
-digital combination lock

Or short: is everything that requires a 'key' to open the container a 'lock'?

thanks

Librarian
08-03-2009, 1:20 PM
Is there a proper definition of 'lock'?

Would the following mechanisms be considered 'locks'?

-thumbprint reader
-magnetical card reader
-radio frequency mechanism (think of garage door opener)
-digital combination lock

Or short: is everything that requires a 'key' to open the container a 'lock'?

thanks

There's no 'legal' definition of lock.

At some point, 'common usage' is acceptable - until some idiot legislator or judge insists on creating a definition.

The feds say (C) a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device
that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm and
that is designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, a
combination, or other similar means.

Meplat
08-03-2009, 4:46 PM
Im surprised with Millions of americans unable to carry in California why hasn't someone come up with a way to carry with a gun specific molded case worn on your person. it has got to be possible to make a little ruger 380 wear like a fullsize with some sort of lockability. Id be happy to test drive any prototype someone comes up with.

Because itís going to be hard to conceal and slow to deploy, and the cops will mess with you anyway. UOC is LAWFUL too but ask some here how expensive it can be.:rolleyes:

Mstrty
08-03-2009, 10:06 PM
Because it’s going to be hard to conceal and slow to deploy, and the cops will mess with you anyway. UOC is LAWFUL too but ask some here how expensive it can be.:rolleyes:

If a magnet ring on your finger would release an internal latch to allow you to twist the latch. then the gun hinge out to 30 degree's where you grab the handle and loaded mag with one hand. With the second hand grab the mag .....tap rack bang. Will it work in a carjack probably not. Will it work if a madman enters you place of business, movie theater, church. Absolutely.

this could be done with a case no bigger than any current 4" fullsize CCW holster on the market today.

Ok the magnet lock is marketed coast to coast as a cabinet lock so I think that may stand up as a lock

Or electronic with 2 micro momentary switches A and B buttons with a combo like A-A-B or B-B-B-A Twist latch, grab, tap, rack, bang.

acheron800
08-03-2009, 11:31 PM
Is a center console considered the same as a glove compartment, or are they different?

The center console safe on the center of mass site looks interesting...

Decoligny
08-04-2009, 9:15 AM
Is a center console considered the same as a glove compartment, or are they different?

The center console safe on the center of mass site looks interesting...

The center console is considered a "utility compartment" and is specifically named as "NOT" a secure locked container for the purposes of 12025 concealed carry exemption purposes.

However, if the secure locked container itself is put into the center console, and is not the console itself, then I think it should be OK. IANAL and the LEOs might see it differently.

Fantasma
08-04-2009, 11:17 AM
Very cool...Quick question?

So are we talking about a concealed locked holster carried on your person while you are doing errands? :)

Or are we talking locked holster and open carrying the locked holster.

Mstrty
08-04-2009, 9:46 PM
Very cool...Quick question?

So are we talking about a concealed locked holster carried on your person while you are doing errands? :)

Or are we talking locked holster and open carrying the locked holster.

It wouldn't matter, it is a locked container. If you wanted to velcro your factory Glock case to your backside and conceal it or not you are simply transporting an unloaded locked firearm. that it the way I read it. We just need to come up with a "case" that is no larger than any holster on the market now.

A concealed wearable lockable case would not function like your conventional holster. it would consist of a hinge on the bottom with a side that folded out like one of those expanding portable file folders. You could then grab the gun and the mag in one hand. Thats the way I see it working. Please understand I dont think it is ideal. But why is this not better than keeping it locked in the car or in the safe at home. Anyone that wants a CCW that cant get it because of where you live explain to my why this is silly. Is there any alternative that offers more legal protection for someone living in a communist county.

Mstrty
08-04-2009, 9:59 PM
I realize this idea is not getting any steam but I want to argue one other point.

If you are a permit holder and you find the need to pull your gun. If you pull it and God forbid you have a failure at the moment you decide to use it would you simply give up and surrender at that moment. Or would you work the failure and get back into the fight. If given no other option I choose to say and fight.

I belive it is possible to manufacture a weapon holder wearable in any location of choice that would allow you (with practice) to go bang just as fast clearing any failure in a gun you might have.

P.S. Sorry to the OP for the threadjack I will stop.

acheron800
08-04-2009, 10:35 PM
The center console is considered a "utility compartment" and is specifically named as "NOT" a secure locked container for the purposes of 12025 concealed carry exemption purposes.

However, if the secure locked container itself is put into the center console, and is not the console itself, then I think it should be OK. IANAL and the LEOs might see it differently.

Thanks! Any other opinions?

SeanCasey
08-04-2009, 10:50 PM
I have actually been thinking about making the same thing. I even went so far as to make a "proof of concept" (doesn't lock at all) for testing, but since I used both a 5" XD-45 Tactical and an 1911 for fitment the concealability of the container is subpar. Only place it would fit is in my wife's purse or in an interior pocket of one of my leather jackets. I suppose a shoulder harness for concealing under an unbuttoned shirt or open jack would be possible too.

My design is slightly different and definately less elborate than what is dicussed here. I really should finish a complete functional prototype.

Mstrty
08-04-2009, 11:00 PM
here is your proof of concept if it was 1984

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29886&stc=1&d=1249451999

Mstrty
08-05-2009, 8:29 PM
here is your proof of concept if it was 1984

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29886&stc=1&d=1249451999

I need an iPhone version of this

Kid Stanislaus
08-05-2009, 11:04 PM
All of these carry ways may be legal in the technical sense, however, if you meet with an uninformed LEO then you will probably be arrested. Maybe not tried but you will take the ride!

I would not chance it. Lock it in your trunk!

You seem to be missing the whole point of this thread!!

Seesm
08-09-2009, 1:06 PM
I had a few arguments this weekend with some correctional officers who think it is illegal to carry your loaded mags in the same locked bag or box as your unloaded handgun....

Mstrty
08-09-2009, 4:03 PM
I had a few arguments this weekend with some correctional officers who think it is illegal to carry your loaded mags in the same locked bag or box as your unloaded handgun....

This is a typical response you will get from LEO's they are sometimes less knowledgeable than most members here. Sorry this is your tax dollars at work.

Seesm
08-09-2009, 11:03 PM
The way I learned it is you can have your "unloaded" handgun (registered to you) in yrou locked box or bag and it is LEGAL to have the loaded mags in the same box or bag as long as it has no rounds chambered and the mag is NOT in the gun.

Decoligny
08-10-2009, 8:13 AM
The way I learned it is you can have your "unloaded" handgun (registered to you) in yrou locked box or bag and it is LEGAL to have the loaded mags in the same box or bag as long as it has no rounds chambered and the mag is NOT in the gun.

This is the same determination that the court came to in People v. Knight which is the current case-law on the subject. Unless the ammunition is actually in the gun (mag with ammo in gun, or round chambered) then the gun is unloaded (assuming law abiding citizen status).

GJJ
08-10-2009, 9:40 AM
I thought of this first! Here is the thread.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=207315

It didn't get as much traction as this thread. I think the concept is sound. After more thinking, a simple solution would be a lockable smartcarry rig.

Picture a version of a smartcarry holster that held your gun in a zippered pouch. You could have a small lock to hold the zipper shut. Bingo.

You have access to a gun. No, you can't use it for self defense against a mugger who surprises you. But, in an active shooter situation, it may work if you don't get shot first.

It certainly beats having your gun at home in your safe.

lehn20
08-10-2009, 10:54 AM
How about the something like a Safariland 6004 style platform, where you can just snap on a kydex style enclosure that is locked somehow.

leadchucker
08-10-2009, 10:54 AM
This is the same determination that the court came to in People v. Knight which is the current case-law on the subject. Unless the ammunition is actually in the gun (mag with ammo in gun, or round chambered) then the gun is unloaded (assuming law abiding citizen status).

And that, my friends, is a common sense interpretation. Rare in the judicial system these days.
Ask any ten year old if an unloaded gun is "loaded".:rolleyes: (Doh! Trick question only an imbecile could get wrong!)

O.K. No tricks now.
Ask any person with even a rudimentary knowledge of firearms to load a revolver. Think he would set the revolver down and throw six rounds next to the gun?
Ask him to load a pistol. Think he would load up the magazine and lay it on top of the pistol? I mean, duh! How could the need for defining "loaded" have ever even been brought up in the court system? Have people become so stupid?

VW*Mike
08-10-2009, 6:52 PM
I like the idea of having a firearm within a few seconds reach in the car. It would come in handy god forbid with SoCal and road rage. Until the law is clear and most LEO's won't haul me to jail and it would cost me $15K to prove I was right, I don't chance it.

fleegman
08-10-2009, 10:02 PM
I like the idea of having a firearm within a few seconds reach in the car. It would come in handy god forbid with SoCal and road rage. Until the law is clear and most LEO's won't haul me to jail and it would cost me $15K to prove I was right, I don't chance it.

I hear this attitude espoused a lot on these boards, and I'm sympathetic, but I personally believe that we have precious few rights in CA, and I absolutely refuse to surrender those few rights because there might be an ignorant/malicious LEO out there. Not only do I believe in exercising my rights to the fullest, I believe in walking boldly right up to the line and sticking my big fat toe over it. The Law IS clear on the matter, it is the LEO's who are unclear.

Mstrty
08-11-2009, 12:37 AM
Calguns has a new CCW SubForum in case you all havent seen it yet. Were taking up this Locked Unloaded Concealed Carry over there.
I like all the examples and Ideas everyone is talking about. Now who wants to test it first.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30278&d=1249874900
Here is my lame attempt at photoshop. I started a thead here (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=211075).

tombinghamthegreat
08-11-2009, 12:45 AM
I like the idea of having a firearm within a few seconds reach in the car. It would come in handy god forbid with SoCal and road rage. Until the law is clear and most LEO's won't haul me to jail and it would cost me $15K to prove I was right, I don't chance it.

The law is very clear and is reinforced with several court rulings on what is a locked container, definition of loaded, and how you can carry and transport. It is very unlikely for you to be detained for having a gun in a locked container or a concealing long gun. How is the cop going to know you have a gun? If they ask you don't need to answer the question(5th amendment) and without reasonable cause or consent they can't really do anything.

This thread is not talking about open carrying in a mall which depending on the city carries a risk of legal fees, school bait(zones i mean), but locked carry which is generally a non issue since it doesn't draw attention, not as controversial or run the issue of the school zones. Even if the cop detains you which would be unlikely unless you are an idiot and admit you have one he can't charge with a violation since you are complaint. That is like saying people should get rid of their OLLs because some PD are unaware of the AW laws.

VW*Mike
08-11-2009, 6:58 AM
So if I got the case in the original post, kept it behind my front seat, under my seat, etc with pistol and loaded mag not in the gun but in the same case, this is perfectly legal?

God forbid the unthinkable, I can just open the case, lock and load? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, and seems more then plausible. It just seems there is as much misinformation on here sometimes as in the media.

If the cops want to search my car, and the case. I plea the 5th and remind them of the 4th since they have no reason to search it since they have no idea what the contents of the box could be and therefore have no reasonable cause? Then when the officer goes into the usual power trip I tell him to get a warrant, charge me with something or let me go?

We should have a little scripted rights pocket card much like the ACLU (I HATE saying that...) has?

Glock22Fan
08-11-2009, 8:46 AM
IIRC, if a cop sees something that is clearly a gun case in your car, he or she is entitled, without a warrent, locked or not, to examine inside it to ensure that the firearms are unloaded. I assume that this would also apply to such a case carried outside the car

Booshanky
08-11-2009, 8:57 AM
IIRC, if a cop sees something that is clearly a gun case in your car, he or she is entitled, without a warrent, locked or not, to examine inside it to ensure that the firearms are unloaded. I assume that this would also apply to such a case carried outside the car

You can always just tell them no, right?

A friend of mine was a glass blower and had all his pieces in rifle and pistol cases since they're cheap and lined with foam that hold the glass pieces in place quite nicely. What's to say that I'm not like him and simply carrying around sensitive equipment or fragile stuff rather than a gun?

Glock22Fan
08-11-2009, 9:07 AM
You can always just tell them no, right?

I believe that there is case law that says that they can whether you want them to or not. If it looks like a gun case, it is highly probably that it contains a gun. This gives them enough Probable Cause, coupled with Officer Safety, to check the case for loaded weapons.

tombinghamthegreat
08-11-2009, 4:32 PM
So if I got the case in the original post, kept it behind my front seat, under my seat, etc with pistol and loaded mag not in the gun but in the same case, this is perfectly legal?yes it would be legal in a locked case or open carried(open carry is another complex issue). The locked case can be anywhere, even between your legs;)

God forbid the unthinkable, I can just open the case, lock and load? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, and seems more then plausible. It just seems there is as much misinformation on here sometimes as in the media.Some of the FUD is actually spread by gun stores more often then media outlets and yes if your life is in danger lock and load.

If the cops want to search my car, and the case. I plea the 5th and remind them of the 4th since they have no reason to search it since they have no idea what the contents of the box could be and therefore have no reasonable cause? Then when the officer goes into the usual power trip I tell him to get a warrant, charge me with something or let me go?
pretty much. I would recommend having a container that is not recognizable as a gun a locking case such as a backpack with a lock, brief case, plastic tool box with a lock. If they have no reasonable cause you should be fine. Remember the more you talk the worse it will be. Use the search button on being pulled over, some good youtube clips. Do not even allow the cop in the car if he tells you get out of the car close and lock the car when you get out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Watch this link its really good but as long as you are not drawing attention it shouldn't come to this and Locked carry is not a controversial issue. Remember if you admit to the cop you have a gun then he can check to see if its loaded per PC12031, so use your 5th amendment rights to defend your 4th amendment.

VW*Mike
08-11-2009, 7:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

Watch this link its really good but as long as you are not drawing attention it shouldn't come to this and Locked carry is not a controversial issue. Remember if you admit to the cop you have a gun then he can check to see if its loaded per PC12031, so use your 5th amendment rights to defend your 4th amendment.

interesting.

So, if my 1911 is locked in the case with a loaded mag next to it, its perfectly legal? In theory the cop would open it up, check it, find it was unloaded and say "Thanks have a nice day"?

Glock22Fan
08-11-2009, 7:57 PM
interesting.

So, if my 1911 is locked in the case with a loaded mag next to it, its perfectly legal? In theory the cop would open it up, check it, find it was unloaded and say "Thanks have a nice day"?

As long as you aren't a known gang member and you are not committing a felony, yes. However, you might have to tell him to check People v. Clark ad not every cop knows this.

tombinghamthegreat
08-11-2009, 8:08 PM
interesting.

So, if my 1911 is locked in the case with a loaded mag next to it, its perfectly legal? In theory the cop would open it up, check it, find it was unloaded and say "Thanks have a nice day"?

Well i doubt some of the PD are that nice but there is nothing legally they can do if you are not in violation. As said before remind them or print this out...it will be useful

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/11495.html

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum12/8457.html

A lot of this is more geared toward open carry but this is still useful. It has the specific penal code, won't hurt to print and put in the carrying case.

Seesm
08-11-2009, 8:22 PM
Funny asking my buddies who are leo's they need to call and ask a supervisor if they do not know... But he does not care if the person has a unloaded gun if they are not a gang member or comitting a crime of a threat to LEO's he is cool with it... These are the LEO's we want to ensure we are moving towards a better California.

VW*Mike
08-11-2009, 8:35 PM
print those out and paste them to the case!