PDA

View Full Version : Pre-Ban Magazine Question


sholling
07-29-2009, 11:08 AM
Back before California banned normal capacity magazines I stocked up for my AR15 and Mini-14 so I'd be grandfathered in. I'm pretty anal about staying legal and didn't want to play any games. Anyway I sold off the AR to help pay for college but kept the mags. Here's my question... I have never even taken the Mini's PMI and Thermold mags out of the packages and I'd like to test them to see if they work. I'm also getting a Kel-Tec SU16CA in the near future and I'll want to test the USGI AR15 mags in it. I'm in my 50s - is it likely that San Berdoo SD will give me a hard time at the range? How do you prove that your grandfathered mags are grandfathered? I just want to shoot a full mag through each to make sure that they feed in case I ever need to rely on them.

Steyr_223
07-29-2009, 11:21 AM
"San Berdoo SD will give me a hard time at the range? "

I am in NorCal, PD do not not hassle folks at the local ranges. For mags or anything else. My local range has threaten to call the cops to get rowdy people to leave.

"How do you prove that your grandfathered mags are grandfathered? "

You don't have to prove any. Short of a confession or video tape of you bringing complete hi-cap mags across the border and or creating hi-cap mags from Parts kits you are ok.

"I just want to shoot a full mag through each to make sure that they feed in case I ever need to rely on them.."

Sure no issues.

I am sure the CalGun Foundation guys will chime in with the Cal Gov PCs...

Decoligny
07-29-2009, 12:08 PM
Back before California banned normal capacity magazines I stocked up for my AR15 and Mini-14 so I'd be grandfathered in. I'm pretty anal about staying legal and didn't want to play any games. Anyway I sold off the AR to help pay for college but kept the mags. Here's my question... I have never even taken the Mini's PMI and Thermold mags out of the packages and I'd like to test them to see if they work. I'm also getting a Kel-Tec SU16CA in the near future and I'll want to test the USGI AR15 mags in it. I'm in my 50s - is it likely that San Berdoo SD will give me a hard time at the range? How do you prove that your grandfathered mags are grandfathered? I just want to shoot a full mag through each to make sure that they feed in case I ever need to rely on them.

The law says that if you had them before 1 Jan 2000 they are fine. There is nothing in the law that prohibits possession, only importation, manufacturing and lending/selling of them.

The burden of proof is upon the Law Enforcement Officer not you.

putput
07-29-2009, 12:30 PM
I know it's just because the laws suck and I've read to much of them and this site but, I thought a firearm that was not a registered AW should never have a high cap mag in it?

sholling
07-29-2009, 12:35 PM
I know it's just because the laws suck and I've read to much of them and this site but, I thought a firearm that was not a registered AW should never have a high cap mag in it?
Mini-14s lack evil pistol grips and flash hiders so normal capacity mags are good to go as long as they grandfathered. My concern was officer friendly getting a bug up his butt and arresting me for having perfectly legal magazines because I can't prove they are legal. Who keeps receipts 10 years?

putput
07-29-2009, 12:45 PM
Oh right, FIXED magazine with more than 10 rounds...

aplinker
07-29-2009, 12:52 PM
Mini-14s lack evil pistol grips and flash hiders so normal capacity mags are good to go as long as they grandfathered. My concern was officer friendly getting a bug up his butt and arresting me for having perfectly legal magazines because I can't prove they are legal. Who keeps receipts 10 years?

I've used them in front of uniformed LE in handguns and rifles. Multiple times.

Never heard a word.

bwiese
07-29-2009, 12:57 PM
Back before California banned normal capacity magazines I stocked
up for my AR15 and Mini-14 so I'd be grandfathered in.


Great! Many of us did so - and even bought hicap mags for guns we didn't even own at the time.

But let's not call them 'normal capacity' - people will get confused. The law refers to "large capacity ammunition feeding devices" so let's call them "large cap mags" or "hicap mags".

I'd hate to see confusion over a religious argument about terminolgy getting someone put in the cooler.


...I sold off the AR to help pay for college but kept the mags.
Here's my question... I have never even taken the Mini's PMI
and Thermold mags out of the packages and I'd like to test
them to see if they work.

I'm also getting a Kel-Tec SU16CA in the near future and I'll
want to test the USGI AR15 mags in it.

Nothing is stopping you.

I am curious why you're getting a KelTec, but then we all have our personal tastes ;)



is it likely that San Berdoo SD will give me a hard time at the
range?

I can't speak for them, but possession of hicap magazines purchased or possessed within CA on or before 12/31/1999 is entirely legal.

How do you prove that your grandfathered mags are grandfathered?

Burden of proof is on THEM.

If questioned by LEOs, a basic answer,"These were purchased by me in CA well before Jan 1 2000 for
a rifle I sold back then. I kept the magazines. Per PC section
12020(a)(2) there are no restrictions on my possession of them,
nor on their general use/transport."
should suffice.

Many of us own & regularly use hicap mags without worry.


I just want to shoot a full mag through each to make
sure that they feed in case I ever need to rely on them.

Laudable goal, but if you have good shape USGI M16 magazines they may be more reliable than your rifle. (Again, I'm not a KelTec rifle fan, sorry.)

bwiese
07-29-2009, 1:02 PM
I know it's just because the laws suck and I've read to much of them and this site but, I thought a firearm that was not a registered AW should never have a high cap mag in it?

Untrue.

Many non-AW firearms can indeed use hicap magazines - pistols, and 'regular' rifles. If you have a legal hicap mag for your Glock or Sig, go use it. If you have a legal hicap mag for your Springfield M1A or regular Mini14 (nonfolder), go use it.

The only firearms that are not reg'd AWs which CANNOT use hicap fixed magazines are:
1.) semiauto centerfire rifles
2.) semiauto pistols.

thomasanelson
07-29-2009, 5:32 PM
Untrue.

Many non-AW firearms can indeed use hicap magazines - pistols, and 'regular' rifles. If you have a legal hicap mag for your Glock or Sig, go use it. If you have a legal hicap mag for your Springfield M1A or regular Mini14 (nonfolder), go use it.

The only firearms that are not reg'd AWs which CANNOT use hicap fixed magazines are:
1.) semiauto centerfire rifles
2.) semiauto pistols.

Sorry bwiese, but just to clarify, do you mean that an AR OLL build with a BB and evil features should not use a hicap mag? What about an AR OLL build with a MMG and no evil features?

bwiese
07-29-2009, 5:48 PM
Sorry bwiese, but just to clarify, do you mean that an AR OLL build with a BB and evil features should not use a hicap mag?

Yes, they should NOT use a hicap fixed mag.

Otherwise you have made an illegal AW - semiauto centerfire rifles with fixed mags over 10rds are AWs by an alternate definition.

What about an AR OLL build with a MMG and no evil features?

That configuration can use a hicap magazine IF there's no maglock.
Detachable hicap is legal here if you have a hicap you got before 1/1/2000.
But if you lock the hicap in, you've made an AW - even with no evil features!

Bottom line: if a semiauto centerfire rifle (or semiauto pistol) has a BB or maglock device installed, you should not use a hicap.

sholling
07-29-2009, 6:19 PM
But let's not call them 'normal capacity' - people will get confused. The law refers to "large capacity ammunition feeding devices" so let's call them "large cap mags" or "hicap mags".
Except that 1) for example 30rds is a normal capacity magazine for an AR15. 2) calling them hi-cap magazines or use of any other politically correct term gives the antis the high ground. It sounds as if we are demanding "cop-killer" bullets. A 10rd magazine is a reduced capacity magazine. However if CalGuns makes a rule I will respect it.

I am curious why you're getting a KelTec, but then we all have our personal tastes ;)
1) I cannot legally use my AR15s without a bullet button, 2) cannot legally insert a 30rd magazine in my AR15s, 3) I want a folder for my BOB. 1&2 make my ARs near useless for self defense and a folded SU16CA looks like it will just fit inside the Camelbak Commander I have designated as a bug out bag. The idea is have a low key rifle available for a Katrina type bug out situation. Much more low key than than a pack and a drag-bag. ;) But it's actually a low priority purchase. This afternoon I spent the money I'd saved up for it on another 1911. It was just too sexy and I couldn't help myself. :o It looks like the end of the world will just have to wait while I save up again. ;)

Just to be clear until the AWB is voided by the courts and my AR15s can be legally ungelded then my custom Mini-14 will remain my primary home protection carbine. It has been thoroughly gone though by John at Great Western and rocks. I have a lot more faith in it than a Kel-tec which will just fill a niche roll if and when I get around to buying one.

bwiese
07-29-2009, 6:34 PM
Except that 1) for example 30rds is a normal capacity magazine for an AR15. 2) calling them hi-cap magazines or use of any other politically correct term gives the antis the high ground. It sounds as if we are demanding "cop-killer" bullets. A 10rd magazine is a reduced capacity magazine.

Let's not get politically correct amongst ourselves. We have to have clear terminology and it's best that terminology coincides with what's in the law.

Avoiding calling them hicaps will not bring us any further political edge as it's already in the law.

Some newb is gonna think "standard capacity" = "not illegal" and get popped.


1) I cannot legally use my AR15s without a bullet button,


Remove some evil features and use a MonsterMan grip and U15 stock.

Frankly I'd find an AR using detachable mags and an MMG far more useful than a 'trick gun with all the features' plus a constrained mag.

2) cannot legally insert a 30rd magazine in my AR15s,


Again, if you remove evil features and use an MMG you can insert/use the0 30rd mags you legally own.

sholling
07-29-2009, 6:46 PM
Remove some evil features and use a MonsterMan grip and U15 stock.

Frankly I'd find an AR using detachable mags and an MMG far more useful than a 'trick gun with all the features' plus a constrained mag.

Again, if you remove evil features and use an MMG you can insert/use the0 30rd mags you legally own.
You may have misunderstood. The idea wasn't to find a use for the magazines. The idea was I wanted a folding rifle for my BOB and the idea of an 22LR AR7 didn't cut the mustard. I feel perfectly warm and fuzzy with either of my Mini-14s and my primary Mini isn't your average Mini. It's been tricked out for reliability and accuracy and I have sufficient grandfathered mags. If I wasn't paranoid I'd post a pretty picture. :D

thomasanelson
08-02-2009, 10:06 AM
Thanks for the clarification bwiese!

Experimentalist
08-02-2009, 10:33 AM
Just a reminder to folks that a fantastic resource is available to help with AW related questions: http://calnra.com/cgi-bin/flowchart.cgi

Or, here's the complete, non-interactive version: http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf

I like to think I'm a reasonably bright guy, who is reasonably conversant on the relevant laws. I still consult this flow chart on a regular basis, just to be extra careful.

Sniper3142
08-02-2009, 12:04 PM
Untrue.

Many non-AW firearms can indeed use hicap magazines - pistols, and 'regular' rifles. If you have a legal hicap mag for your Glock or Sig, go use it. If you have a legal hicap mag for your Springfield M1A or regular Mini14 (nonfolder), go use it.

The only firearms that are not reg'd AWs which CANNOT use hicap fixed magazines are:
1.) semiauto centerfire rifles
2.) semiauto pistols.

In case some people missed that one word, I bolded it. OLL rifles (or any other centerfire semiautomatic rilfe) can use 10+ round magazines as long as they are "Featureless" or have none of the Assault Weapon features (flash hider, collapsable stock, protuding pistol grip, vertical forward grip).

El Gato
08-02-2009, 12:12 PM
Mini-14s lack evil pistol grips and flash hiders so normal capacity mags are good to go as long as they grandfathered. My concern was officer friendly getting a bug up his butt and arresting me for having perfectly legal magazines because I can't prove they are legal. Who keeps receipts 10 years?

Possession is not illegal... transfer/import is... I HAVE arrested a guy for being in possession of a Keltec, loaded with a 30 rd mag, chambered and everything... a NLR dropout on probation for being a felon in possession of a gun is now in possession of a pseudo EBR... I TRIED to get him prosecuted for possession of the mag along with the gun and 400+ rounds of ammo... no dice... DA wouldn't bite... Oh he went back to prison for 1 ct. of being a felon in possession of ammo and 1ct for 12021 but no go on the mag... DA said there was no way to prosecute period for possession... and that was in Kern Co. and we were going after a notorious gang member.... so I think you are pretty safe there buddy...just don't import/manufacture or transfer a new mag...

sholling
08-02-2009, 12:20 PM
Thanks all! I'll make a range trip soon and test out my Mini-14's preban mags to make sure that they work. PMI's haven't even been made since before the ban.